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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Coaches where they don't belong...
Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 2:24 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> A bit of a rant so bear with me...
Over the past weeks as local Little League tournaments start. I'm finding myself intolerant of coaches who are, for lack of a better term, all over the dang place!!! As I shoot on small local fields base lines are tight, and there are no photo boxes (it's Little League geeee)...
Lately I've run into a lot of coaches who like to toe the line, and latterly don't move back from 1st or 3rd until the ball is pitched, this gives me an extremely shallow angle to get batters, and I end up with shots with part of a hand, leg, body in the shot. Others coaches on 3rd who like to run half way down the line, again, in my shot of the dive over the catcher into home! (grrr)...
Others pace the line like an expectant mother; or back and forth to the dugout (in front of my shot!)...
Mind you these are 9yo, 10yo, and the 11-12yo "Majors" games, these kids KNOW baseball. Games are for District and League titles.
What is one to do? Complain to the umpire (I know most of the crews)? I know damn well the coaches "Should" stay in there box... Say something to coach; risk a blow up? The simplest solution is to walk... But the League and District have treated me well... *sigh* |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:40 AM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> Well, the umpire is supposed to have the say on the field. Before the game, I would speak with them. If they refuse to do anything, I think you're SOL. |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 7:55 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> Annoying as that may be, and its something we've all dealt with before, coaches and officals are always going to trump the photographer, even if they are in the "wrong".
They aren't putting on a game for you to take photos of, rather your there simply to take photos of a game and complaints are going to fall upon deaf ears.
Coaches, and especially officals, really do have more "right" to be there and are more important to the game than a photographer, regardless of the level of the play. Just because its little leauge doesn't change that fact. Would you complain to an umpire about a base coach or manager at a MLB game ? Good luck with that.
Reality of the situation is that coaches pacing the line or moving out of the box is part of the game and something we've got to deal with as photographers. If you think its worth walking away over I'm sure theres someone else who would be glad to take your place, especially in this tough market we are in right now.
Whats next then, stop shooting football when the back judge gets in the way of a great shot of a sack, or a ref at a basketball game blocks your shot of a big dunk on the baseline.
I don't mean to sound unsympathetic but basically you've got a shot of a kid sliding into home plate and a base coach is blocking part of the frame. Join the club. I've got hundreds of shots like that where a coach or umpire ruined what could of been a great shot. Its just part of the game. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 8:33 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> While I think giving your post a "Huh?" is a bit harsh, I believe the other posters have offered good advice. Any of us who have shot kids baseball/softball have had to deal with this over and over. My advice is get used to the coaches being in the way and figure out locations where you have a clearer line of sight to the field when you're not getting the shots you want.
I have a 4-step ladder I've used to shoot over the dugout back fence (with built-in dugouts you can sometimes climb on top of them to shoot); you can shoot through the backstop from behind the plate (yes, this can produce decent shots); climb up in the stands and shoot down on the field (really can clean up the backgrounds); shoot from inside the dugout, looking out one of the doors in the dugout (usually only from the dugout of the team in the field - the team at bat's dugout is too crowded and busy) - this a great place to capture the pitcher and infield and even to get some fantastically tight shots of the batters; go with your longest glass and shoot from center field, looking into the plate; etc.....
I think you get the point. And don't forget to have fun. |
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Paul Cacciapaglia, Photographer, Assistant
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Houston (Friendswood) | TX | USA | Posted: 9:22 AM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> Jeff and Dennis both make very good points. I too shoot little league baseball and understand your frustrations, but I also coach little league baseball. I find if I respect the coaches point of view in coaching the game, I will get the same respect back from the coaches in shooting the game. I often have them apologize for getting in my way while shooting. It might have something to do in that I do know most of the coaches, but I feel by trying to stay low key it helps gain their respect. I do sometimes miss that great shot, but being the photographer you are secondary to what is going on during the game. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:34 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> Walk??? Okay I didn't mark you HUH either but I have to hope that the thing about walking was/is just your frustration coming out and not really what you would consider a solution.
As far as all of the what's next analogies Jeff's filled those in nicely.
I tell my guys to move around themselves. Back farther out into the outfield and slap a TC on the 300 or for that matter move in and switch to a medium zoom. I wouldn't say MUM to the coach. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 9:49 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> If the league has treated you well and they are interested in you getting good photos (such as they pay you or you pay them a commission on sales as some photogs do) you can ask league officials to issue a kind reminder to the coaches that photographers are there to highlight the kids so the parents, coaches and league can have quality photos for keepsakes for the rest of their lives.
Probably won't do anything about the coaches moving but at least you have taken action and you may get one or two to glance over their shoulder and move out of the way a bit.
But as the others have said, it's a situation you just have to curse under your breath and get on with it. In years of covering every level of baseball the coach's box has always been merely a "suggestion" of where the base coach should stand and I've never seen it enforced.
The only time you will ever see an umpire do anything about it is if the coach interferes with a play and he is not in the designated area. Then his team will be penalized (his runner called out or made to hold a base and not advance). But I think in 25+ years of covering little league, high school, college and pro I've seen that happen exactly zero times. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:31 AM on 07.02.09 |
->> Richard,
The simple solution? Start your own league. Then you can make the rules and tell everybody where to stand. I doubt the local LL put on games just so you can take pictures.
Seriously, deal with it. It sounds like you got comfort zones, something you don't want if you aspire to be more than a league shooter.
The right solution? Move. Look for different angles for fresh views. Give your buyers something different to purchase. You can whine all you like that is the nature of the beast of the sport - LL, High School, Pro - it happens. Sometimes coaches are in your sight lines along the baseline and referees at the peak moment on a play at home. Happens to me every game. If you are a true sport photographer, you deal with it. Me, I don't get upset, that's not the sensible answer. Moving is.
Shoot from the stands, shoot from the outfield, shoot from behind the backstop, move four feet to the left or right down the fence line...there are lots of options and ... pardon the pun ... a wide open field. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:13 AM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> What they all said. This is part of the business of sports photography. No matter WHAT kind or level you're shooting at its a plain and simple fact, you have NO control over where coaches stand and what they are allowed to do. I would also caution you on making too big of a deal out of this. I have a feeling you're going to be sorely disappointed if you complain to the league or the umpires about "coaches" getting in your way. The worst part of that will be the loud laughter coming your way. Secondly, the other thing you should worry about would be looking unprofessional. I have covered baseball for over 35 years and had a bunch of photos thrown in the crapper because a coach, player, umpire or poor positioning ruined a photo. In all of those cases I never once considered complaining to officials or coaches about their positioning on the field. They will just look at you and laugh. Then of course they will probably call the league and want to know why they didn't hire a professional. Just saying. You should be very careful how you choose to approach this. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 12:35 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> Chuck is right. You must tread lightly. If, as you say, you know the umps, pull one aside AFTER a game when you are away from the diamond, say, in the parking lot, and ask "I'm curious; What's the rule on coach's position during a game?" and he will get the message. DO NOT COMPLAIN! You must live with it regardless. The ump knows what's going on and for whatever reason he's not enforcing the rule, well, that's life.
Also, umps in little league games are beginners for the most part. They work as a one-man "crew" and must cover everything. Some may not even know the rule, but still, you must take what you are given for better or worse. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 1:56 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> I am on both sides of this issue.
When I'm coaching, I could care less who is trying to take pictures.
And, to say that these kids "know" baseball...... well, maybe you should try coaching some time. |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 2:00 PM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> Shoot soccer... They enforce the rules. ;) |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 2:20 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> Thanks guys...
As stated when I posted, it was a rant of my frustrations.
I do, "shut up and shoot", with hardly a peep during a game, even covering a home team final. I understand it's not my place to say, or really even cheer while on the field... The local crews, and leagues have treated me very well, by giving me mostly unrestricted access to the fields...
I do move, a lot... Most of the normal spots you mentioned I hit, LF, RF, behind the stop, dugout, shooting threw center... Never tried on top of the dugout... (that one scares me a bit). LOL
I never say any thing to coach, and I have dropped hints to ump friends as you suggested... and once an ump told coach he needed to go back up the line to the box. (He was more then 1/2 down 3B).
Coming from a martial arts background of 15 years, Im surrounded by strict rules... I guess thats my problem... To me, if a coach it to stay in the box... well... he should stay in the box! If a wrestling (youth) coach is to stay back from the circle his toes should not be on the line, and him leaning over it...
I'm expecting too much, I guess... But this was a rant, I got it off my chest, and I feel better now... Thanks guys... |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 2:22 PM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> Just be extremely civil with the coaches. Perhaps you can come up with an incentive so they are "helping" you. If they make the effort, then you give them a free photograph or something like that. You have a chance to win them over as a customer and an advocate for your business. Don't burn bridges, it's small ball. Play nice and choose your timing carefully. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 2:26 PM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> I'm actually not aware of any rule, at any level, that says coaches need to stay in the box |
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Jeffrey Furticella, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | US | Posted: 3:33 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> Give the coaches cameras and put them on the payroll.
GRIN
- furt |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 3:42 PM on 07.02.09 |
| ->> Jeffrey... And why are there wedding photos on your SPORTS shooter members page? ;) |
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Kevin Seale, Photographer
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Crawfordsville | IN | United States | Posted: 6:25 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> "I'm actually not aware of any rule, at any level, that says coaches need to stay in the box"
From the MLB rules of baseball (See section b part 2).
4.05
(a) The team at bat shall station two base coaches on the field during its time at bat, one near first base and one near third base.
(b) Base coaches shall be limited to two in number and shall (1) be in team uniform, and (2) remain within the coach’s box at all times.
PENALTY: The offending base coach shall be removed from the game, and shall leave the playing field.
Rule 4.05 Comment: It has been common practice for many years for some coaches to put one foot outside the coach’s box or stand astride or otherwise be slightly outside the coaching box lines. Until a batted ball passes a coach, a coach is not permitted to position himself closer to home plate than the coach’s box nor closer to fair territory than the coach’s box. Otherwise, a coach shall not be considered out of the box unless the opposing manager complains, in which case the umpire shall strictly enforce the rule and require all coaches (on both teams) to remain in the coach’s box at all times.
NCAA Rules (Rule 1 Section 3C)
c. The coaches’ boxes shall be 20 feet by 5 feet and 15 feet from the foul
line as shown in the diagram on page 15. At the time of the pitch, the
base coach shall remain within the confines of the coaches’ box with
both feet. It is legal for the base coach to be positioned further away
from home plate than the boundaries of the coaches’ box.
You have to pay to get the Little League rule book and it was not that important to me to do so but am pretty confident that something similar is included there as well. |
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Marshall Wolff, Photographer
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Framingham | Ma. | USA | Posted: 10:07 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> Maybe a remote camera near home plate. Just a thought
Marshall |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:57 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> "Jeffrey... And why are there wedding photos on your SPORTS shooter members page?"
Ahhhh, because it's HIS page. Dealer's choice dude. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 11:03 PM on 07.02.09 |
->> Kevin,
Thanks for looking those up and clearly it's not a rule that's ever enforced. I (as have most people) been blocked about every way imaginable by a coach.
I agree with all those that have suggested honey rather than vinegar as a medicine here.
If you want to get blocked more, by all means complain to someone. |
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Joe Nicola, Photographer
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Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 6:18 AM on 07.04.09 |
->> OR...you can do like I did when I wanted great shots of my team playing and that was I'd coach 3rd with my camera and clipboard. I kept the stats I needed, took some photos, and made sure I gave the right sign to my runners at 1st and 2nd, not to mention the batter. lol. Talk about multitasking...lol.
But to iterate what the others have said...don't remember there being a rule about having to REMAIN in the box in PONY or LL baseball. I didn't move around a lot, but others did. It's like that pesky side judge in football...always seem to get great shots of his, um, backside.
Talk to the umps...they might just let you sit inside the fence near the dugout and shoot from there. I do that alot and it works pretty well.
good luck. |
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Mike Strasinger, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 1:39 PM on 07.04.09 |
| ->> Yeah and those damn umpires,referees,dish guys,chain gang, ball boys ,cable pullers,TV cameras, and other players not in the play keep getting in my way too. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:49 PM on 07.04.09 |
->> Former major league manager and coach Leo Durocher was famous for rubbing out the chalk lines of the coach's box with his cleats. Some ballparks took to covering the box with a plastic mat to keep him from doing it.
--Mark |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer, Assistant
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 12:11 AM on 07.05.09 |
->> How about shooting some pictures of the coaches and the umpires? Those folks are part of the game too, and they just might like to have a picture of themselves in action.
You might be surprised to know how many umpires ask me to get photos of them calling the games. Even at the pro minor league level. These guys call the games because they love doing it, and they rarely ever get pictures of themselves.
It is easy to get caught up in the "I have to have every moment of a game covered" mentality. But consider all things on the field, and when you start getting a lot of ref ass photos rethink the situation and give yourself another sales opportunity ... until you do get to move. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 07.06.09 |
->> As photographers we are constantly dealing with inconveniences and barriers. That's just the nature of the business. Keep in mind that you are there shooting the game. The game, however, is not being played for you to shoot.
I'm constantly moving left and right trying to keep a first or third base coach out of my viewfinder. Is it annoying and inconvenient? Absolutely. Would I ever quote to them the rule stating that they are to remain in the box? Absolutely not. Not sure I quite understand this apparent sense of entitlement some photographers seem to have. |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 12:30 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Rent a Blimp? |
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