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Private vs Commercial Photo Use - Help
Gary Pirnat, Photographer
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La Mirada | CA | USA | Posted: 11:42 AM on 06.26.09 |
->> Last month I shot a well known 2 hour equestrian show for a friend, as I have been doing for the past several years. It's for a charity event for cancer research by a local major university and I shoot it for free. Occasionally I will be asked by one or two of the participants to specifically photograph their horse during the show. I charge them about $45 per 8x10 print or for 2 5x7's. After this last show I received an order but the participant also wanted... "What I am interested in is the digital image, and the right to use the shot for advertising and flyers to promote my stallion..." for the same price of $45. My reply was... "For the purposes outlined in your last e-mail that would be $300 per image (x2 for the two images)." She flipped at the new price and complained to my friend that I was taking advantage of her. I explained that for personal use the cost for prints is going to be different than for commercial use as she outlined.
Any comments on this whould be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Gary |
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Sheen Yen, Photographer
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West Lafayette | IN | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 06.26.09 |
| ->> Nothing to debate in this case- if she wants the rights and is going to make money off of the shot, there's no reason she shouldn't have to pay for those rights. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 12:16 PM on 06.26.09 |
->> Gary I don't think that you did anything wrong. Frankly people pay 10x that amount if we're talking about a 'quality' horse. What exactly is she looking to advertise the stallion for? Can the horse talk? Is his DNA worth $10K a pop? I mean no one just goes out looking to advertise their horse for fun so there has to be an underlying 'story'.
Let her flip, we (Americans collectively) need the exercise and. |
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Gary Pirnat, Photographer
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La Mirada | CA | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 06.26.09 |
->> Hey Eric,
Stud services. Some horses have all the luck. ;-)
Thanks.
Gary |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 12:46 PM on 06.26.09 |
| ->> Once she prices around for commercial use, she'll realize you're right. I'm sure she charges more for a stud fee than she does a pony ride. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:45 PM on 06.26.09 |
->> Gary I don't know about horses but I watch Dirty Jobs and saw how prize bulls are 'milked'. Not sure that I'd consider it my lucky day ;) Anything that involves electricity and a probe that looks like a baseball bat with ears is a PASS in my book.
Seriously it's like the realty companies that want you to shoot 6 rooms and 3 exteriors of a 3 million dollar listing for $50. |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 4:16 PM on 06.26.09 |
| ->> Stick to your guns Gary! |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 4:58 PM on 06.26.09 |
| ->> Wesley made a terrific comparison, nicely said. Congratulations on elevating from being a photographer, to being a photographer who teaches Gary. Teaching the rest of the world that a commodity costs money |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 7:12 PM on 06.26.09 |
->> Gary let me pretend that I am not a photographer, like she is and doesnt know the biz, so I come to you before the race and you tell me that your price for prints is $45.
But why charge such a low fees for your talent? How about instead of selling prints ala Sears have a flier with your service fees added.
If you had built yourself to charge $300-$400 for the event/day, with two prints include and $45 for any extra images that would had been a different story.
So yes to her $300 seems like a lot of money for she knows ZERO about licensing rights and so far see you as a low service photographer which is a pitty.
The true and sad thing is that $300 for an adv campaign is actually WAY, with the way stretching from NYC to California, TOO LOW. All full rights of any of your photo work should start around 10K.. For real.. And then ad any other additional licensing. YOU may not get the 10K but you could get 5-7K
SO please try to built up your fees and you will be a lot more respected and when it would not a be a shock if you mention a $500 day rate to them or a 5-10K licensing fees. But first we need to think much better of ourselves.
As photographer we keep shooting ourselves on the foot over and over. Why are we afraid to charge a lot more when it should had been that way for a long time?
The way she sees you now is as a plumber or a hired handymen which a hourly fees of $45 for only a couple or 2 hours of work. Heck even her hair person gets pay better.
Do you think a newspaper would only charge a car dealership $45 or $300 to run an adv? Like other folks said she is not letting that stud for only $45 or $300.
Good luck and even if you do get $300 is WAY TOO LOW!!
More 2 Come
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 9:22 PM on 06.26.09 |
->> I do a ton of equestrian related stuff. I know everyone thinks that $10,000 is fair. Some think $300 is fair. Well, he will be lucky to get $300 from a single owner for one stallion. Seriously. I am not sure what she means by "promote", but I know what the people who deal with horses pay.
On the regular, places like Daily Racing Form, Bloodhorse and TDN use images for ads through an agency. That buyer pays $150 per. These are horse images to be used in national publications. That's it. Major farms are only willing to kick out $150.
Some of the other industry folks will definitely pay more - saddlery places, equine therapy.
Whatever we may think is fair is immaterial. The reality is that you get what you can get - if you are willing to take it. You can stand your ground, but the buyer in Gary's case will just get some hack to take a substandard photo for much less.
Believe me. I had a Big Brown photo from the Derby that was perfect for Yum Brands. Perfect. They were only willing to go $250. I ate it and didn't sell. There are some things I just can't bring myself to do. Just the reality of who your customer is Gary...hope it works out. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 12:51 AM on 06.27.09 |
| ->> You absolutely did the right thing. Walk. BUT, having said that, it sounds as if you might have prefaced your quote with a short explanation of common practice in pricing images for commercial and advertising use, THEN spring the $300 price on her; and that is usage fee for only one year. Manuello is right; she knows ZERO about licensing rights. |
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John OHara, Photographer
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Petaluma | Ca | United States | Posted: 2:36 AM on 06.27.09 |
->> My Turn ! I am an Equestrian Event photographer. I also had a career at the SF Chronicle,
QUESTION..... Was there an Official Show photographer there also ? If there was, who allowed you to become a vendor at that event ? Most if not all established events have only one photographer. There are many camera there but only one show photographer.
First of all, you should have had a price list for prints and digital files. Determining prices after the fact is dangerous and volatile as you have found out. It is a common practice to sell digital files for the use of Sale, promotion and advertising. This does not give them permissions for resale or editorial use. Had you looked at what the established show photographers are charging for this? You could have given her a figure that was competitive and within the market value from established show photographers.
Exhibitors, who show horses, expect to pay an additional fee for digital files.
Do not think for a minute that Amateur Riders and exhibitors are the same thing as professional or Open riders. Hunter Jumper horse and race horses, while the same breed of horse, the market value for photos are not anywhere near each other in pricing.
Google, "KC Montgomery"," Dick Waltenberry" "Rick Osteen", "Primo Morales" , "Jim Naismith" or myself, " John O'Hara" each of us has a different price range, and each of us offer the photos with various use permits.
Take the entire expericence as a learning experience and go on. Your photos must be OK. Why not shoot the show next time and sell photos to everone. It is more fun and much more profitable. Don't Weaken...John |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 8:03 AM on 06.27.09 |
| ->> Tell her for $300 you will throw in your "stud fee" for free. ;) |
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Gary Pirnat, Photographer
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La Mirada | CA | USA | Posted: 2:25 PM on 06.27.09 |
->> First of all permit me to say thank you to all who have responded to my request for comments. All are appreciated and contain some important insight.
A little clarification... I have been the prime "show" photographer for this event for the past five years. (by show I'm mean the two hour event consisting of "acts" by some of the event participants, in an enclosed arena, that caps the near week long competition) The event also hires another photographer who does the typical shoot and order photos for all event participants, but this person doesn't shoot the "show". My "friend" runs the whole event and I take photos of the various "acts" in the show "for her" so they can be used to promote next years' event. She provides me with many addtional paid "jobs" during the course of the year and being a charity event for cancer research (aditional personal reasons) I do not charge her for my services, do not pass out cards or approach participants, but on occasion I will get someone who approaches me - the subject of this discussion - to focus on their horse while their "act" is in the arena. After the event we complete our transaction (usually via e-mail, etc.) and everyone is normally very happy.
In this case (as stated earlier) this person wants to use the specific images I took of her horse for commercial use, to promote her horse, for stud service promotion, etc. but only pay "print prices". My question then was: Am I correct in demanding a larger fee for commercial use vs. non-commercial use?
I believe the majority of you have answered my question with a "YES". Actually I already knew the answer but was looking for "back-up" and to prove my point.
Again, thanks for the help. I hope to someday return the favor.
Gary |
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John Strohsacker, Photographer
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:38 PM on 06.27.09 |
->> "In this case (as stated earlier) this person wants to use the specific images I took of her horse for commercial use, to promote her horse, for stud service promotion, etc. but only pay "print prices". My question then was: Am I correct in demanding a larger fee for commercial use vs. non-commercial use?"
You most certainly are correct. |
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