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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Largest # of photos expected from you in a shoot?
Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 12:55 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> I have had a few experiences with assignments in which quality is more important than quantity. You know the ones -- companies looking to sell lots of shots, usually of events like youth soccer and cheerleading tournaments -- to parents and family.
I recently looked into one assignment in which you were expected to shoot two games per hour over two eight-hour days and provide 400 shots from each game. That's a shot every 4.5 seconds, and if you shoot 16 games a day, that's 12,800 actuations on your camera in one weekend -- if every one of them is a keeper! (I'm using Canon, so we know THAT's not going to happen).
Have you done work where they wanted even more than 400 shots from a half-hour of shooting? |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 1:06 PM on 06.15.09 |
| ->> Yes, I've shot marathons where you click constantly, non-stop for hours and I'm surprised at the number that actually turn out good.........it's a good way to "age" your equipment fast, so you have to make sure you are making enough to outweigh the wear and tear on your equipment and yourself. The cost of doing business (when figured with all minute details) makes you take a second look at a lot of these types of events. |
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Eric Isaacs, Photographer
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Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 1:07 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> Jeff,
with a canon MKIII (10 fps) you should be able to get all your shots in the first minute :-)
Hey, they get what they ask for, right?
When I shoot for event sales I definitely focus more on quality than quantity. Its certainly a plus if you can find a keeper shot of every player, coach and siblings in the stands during a game but 400 shots from a half hour of shooting is essentially asking for mediocrity. I generally end up with around 300-400 shots from covering an entire game. I'd probably turn down that assignment.
EMI |
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Kevin Clifford, Photographer
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Reno | NV | United States | Posted: 2:02 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> I've done that type of assignment a few times while I was in college. It was a good lesson to learn because I was under payed and they wanted about 300-400 shots per game (32 teams per day). I was only payed about $150 per day for about 5,000 usable shots per day.
With your event assignment at 12,800 (for about $150 per day-just a guess) each photo is worth about whopping 2 cents.
So the question is, are your photos worth 2 cents? It also depends on how bad you need the money. If you are desperate for anything I would take it, but if you can, you should skip it and look for other assignments that will pay you much better. |
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Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:06 PM on 06.15.09 |
| ->> I'm not doing the assignment. I'm just curious how hard some companies push the photo count envelope, as 400 in a half-hour of shooting was about the most I've seen yet. |
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G.M. Andrews, Photographer
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Mobile | AL | USA | Posted: 3:54 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> "Quantity has a quality all its own"
- Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> Three things you juggle in business: 1) Time 2) Quality & 3) Price.
The general rule is you can get 2 of the 3 but never all three. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 4:32 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> You have to understand the nature of the business. It's really a bird of a different feather. If I came back with only 400 images a half at a soccer event, I'd get the comment... "Get your numbers up." I'll average 500-600 and as much as 1000 in a 25 minute half. And, we are not motor driving either. Many times, they are single and double taps. Are they all SI? No, of course not. That's not what the business is about. It's about producing the largest variety of sellable shots in a given amount of time. We can't sell what we don't have and you don't know what a parent wants, hence the name, SPECULATION. A sellable shot then, by parental parameters, is any shot of their kid thats shot tight, in focus, and shows a face. And even the face part... is debatebly. I can guarantee that if you have a buying parent, that's looking to buy, you can have a photo of a kid stepping in pile of sh*t and it will sell... just as long as it's THEIR KID.
That being said, the highest amount of photos in a weekend for me tops 30,000+ for a single event (cheer) and as for soccer/baseball games, covering 20-30 games per day has been reached.
Take or leave it. It's the business. I don't attempt to understand everything that you PJ guys do either. |
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Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 5:44 PM on 06.15.09 |
| ->> Wow, Paul. What kind of gear do you use, and how often do you have to replace it? |
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John Cheng, Photographer
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New Milford | CT | USA | Posted: 6:34 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> It is not unusual for my company to produce close to 100k images on a given 3-day weekend covering gymnastics meets. Like Paul, my shooters do not lean on the shutter and we end up with around 30-40 images per gymnast per event. For a 1200-gymnast invitational shooting beam and floor, that's close to 96k images.
Assuming 30% purchase rate (conservatively speaking) @ $45.00 avg spending, you can do the math on what the gross potential is over a 3-day weekend. Is it profitable? yes, but with it long hours and equipment wear and tear are also a part of the game.
Like Paul said event coverage is a totally different beast from PJ. I pay my shooters way north of $150/day, plus travel expenses.
I put all the mileage on my D700 for meets. It has about 220k since I got it last Sept. The D3s are now used for when I go on assignments with USAG. All my shooters are either MKIIIs or D3s. Paul has his feet in both camps. He uses D3 + 70-200 for events and MKIII and 400/2.8 for field sports.
-John |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:01 PM on 06.15.09 |
| ->> Paul thanks for sparing me 30,000 key clicks typing all that. My D3 has 467,925 actuations on it, still on the original shutter. |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 11:50 PM on 06.15.09 |
->> Well, I shot 5 Little League games this past Sunday for our League Championship day... 2 Coach Pitch, 1 1st Year Kid Pitch, and 2 Little League Majors. My raw photo count was around 3000... I average about 500 a game... The last game was the championship and it was a killer game, I shot almost 800...
Paul I know you've been doing this 5x longer then me, but I have to say... Do parents really want to look threw 1000 photos from a game? For example... when I shot Coach Pitch... it's kind of hard to get bat and ball shots, when Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT because the kids pitch the first 3 innings, and almost every batter is a walk or hit-by-pitch... There is only so much you can shoot of a kid just standing around...
I may be totally missing the point here, but I'd rather post 300 quality shots, then 800 "Im here" shots... And as for killing time "Dugout portraits" of benchers, just don't sell for me... (Our league is only 200 kids)...
FYI, heres Paul's article on shooting the LLWS, and 50k shots of 12 teams...
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1628 |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 12:02 AM on 06.16.09 |
->> I'm guessing that Paul doesn't shoot a lot of Coach Pitch for the exact reason that you stated above:
1. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
2. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
3. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
4. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
5. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
6. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
7. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
9. Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT
10. kid just standing around... |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 12:03 AM on 06.16.09 |
| ->> I forgot #8: Jr DOESN'T SWING THE BAT |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 06.16.09 |
| ->> Well, it went with the days events is all... The last 2 Majors games where exciting ... And for that matter Tee Ball was more exciting then Coach Pitch... But the point is still valid... How do you "get the numbers up" when your just having a bad team day? I've never shot more then about 800 in one 6-inning Little League game. |
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Keith Kountz, Photographer, Assistant
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Fresno | CA | USA | Posted: 1:27 AM on 06.16.09 |
->> This is for the guys that shoot these events...
How much do you pay your second or other photographers?
Do you do "day rate" or commission based pay on just there images that are sold?
I am a second shooter for a guy and I want to know if need to tell him that I can't shoot for him nicely or if what I am getting is the "standard" price.
I to feel quality is better than quantity....but it is a fine line in the youth sports leagues but at what price. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 8:41 AM on 06.16.09 |
| ->> Keith, what are you getting paid? |
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Keith Kountz, Photographer, Assistant
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Fresno | CA | USA | Posted: 1:18 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> For a softball tournament average three days is about $75 per day. 8+ hrs per day
For a swim meet (Junior Olympics) 4-5 days I have been on commission and recieved about $120 per day. 12hrs per day
I am using my own equipment which includes 2 mk2n, 300 2.8, 70-200 2.8, I also set up remotes at events with a 5D and pocketwizards
With this one guy I am averaging about 7,000 clicks per day |
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Philip Johnson, Photographer
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Garland | TX | USA | Posted: 2:05 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> Keith,
Think about what it would cost to just rent the equipment you are bringing to shoot the event. The individual you are working for is renting your talent and your equipment.
Down in the Dallas area 2nd shooters for wedding photographers are starting out at $200 and going up for one days work. I've heard some getting $500 for a wedding. The hours may range from 4 to 10 it all depends. |
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Matthew Bush, Photographer
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Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 2:14 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> I used to work with an event shooter that specialized in cheer and showchior all over the U.S. Our "quota" was a minimum of 250 images during a 2 minute period for cheer. 500 for a 20 minute showchior set. Many times I shot WAY WAY MORE than that and as mentioned above it was all double taps not burst. The idea was to get as many shots of each kid as possible . It is not PJ and it is not exciting but he makes 20 times what I make as a PJ a year with his business. His gear is a testate to CPS... there was always 1d bodies at Canon for shutters.
Now in my life as a PJ I try to shoot a minimum of 100 images on each assignment. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 5:19 PM on 06.16.09 |
| ->> Keith... you are getting paid way too little! My mouth jaw hit the ground when I read your post. Day rates should be between 200-400 depending on experience and gig. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 5:36 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> Keith,
You are getting ripped off! That essentially less than minimum wage, and you have to pay for all of your own gear, repairs, etc. For him to just rent your gear it would cost him more than that!
Tell him to pay you more, or get the heck out of there! |
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Keith Kountz, Photographer, Assistant
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Fresno | CA | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> Thank you all for your input It has help tremendously!!! I am glad that you are all saying what my gut is saying.
Just proves to always go with your gut it may save your live and some money!!!! |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 5:46 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> Keith,
Its not just your gut, you got to look at the cost of doing business for yourself!
John Harrington has a good book on the topic, plus a website with more info here:
http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/ |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 6:28 PM on 06.16.09 |
| ->> Keith... keep us posted and let us know what happens. |
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Matthew Bush, Photographer
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Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 11:52 PM on 06.16.09 |
->> Keith I had to go to a wreck earlier and was in a hurry so I did not mention this. If we used our own gear we were payed a gear rental fee by hour. If I remember correctly it was in the 25 dollar an hour range for gear use plus whatever our day rate was. Lots of wear and tear on a shutter though.
An option that has not been mention is negotiating for a lower day rate but with commission. If your system allows look an see how many images that you shoot are selling from each event then this will give you a better ballpark estimate of how much you would make. |
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Matthew Bush, Photographer
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Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 12:08 AM on 06.17.09 |
->> Missed your 75 dollar post....
Take a look at how much money your making for the company and compare it to how much your getting paid.
If only 35 of the 7000 images sell for 10 bucks a pop you make this guy 350 dollars and he just pocketed 275 dollars after paying you without even putting miles on his own gear
75 dollars a day is before taxes ? That is ridiculously low. I could see 75 plus gear rental and then 5 or 10 % commission being fair but 75 dollars stinks |
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Barbara Perenic, Photographer
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Springfield | OH | USA | Posted: 12:58 PM on 06.17.09 |
| ->> As a daily community newspaper working on our web presence, the Springfield News-Sun was proud to boast 4 million hits in May thanks to proms and graduations. Editors salivated as they spoke, requesting 100-photo galleries by the morning after each event. I guess it worked. One of our more internet-savvy schools is still getting us thousands of hits a day for their prom and graduation, which were a month and two weeks ago respectively. I think I put in around 150 photos for each of them. Of course, I do a lot less editing for such projects, generic cutlines, etc. Overall, the web viewers seem to care less about quality... they just want to see themselves! I'm struggling with how I feel about this, it's not exactly journalism but it keeps me employed! But, the kids have been really complimentary and get excited when I show up at events so at least I feel like I'm doing something positive. |
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Bastian Ehl, Photographer
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Magdeburg | _ | Germany | Posted: 6:23 PM on 06.17.09 |
->> Shot a corporate event last year.
I've been booked by their ad/event agency.
The head of the agency told me he wanted 1000 shots per day of that event.
Luckily the art director took me aside afterwards and told me not to send more than 200 photos, because it is him selecting and editing those shoots for publication. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 06.17.09 |
->> I would strongly discourage anyone from working on commission unless that commission is gravy to an already acceptable day rate. For the record, I have never worked for a photo company that intended to pay me on commission for several reasons...
1)The policy gives the photographer an excuse not to put his best foot forward and 100% effort into the event. If he's deep in hole for 3 grand in photographers for the weekend, he's going to bust his hump making sure that his photos and promotions get into the hands of the people he is selling to. If paying his photogs a commission, it isn't a big deal. There is no risk on his part and no matter how hard or how little he works, he's not going to LOSE money.
2) I don't ever want my worth to be judged on my sales. Too many variables to that. Low sales should not be attributed to the quality of the photographs or the work ethic of the photographer. I could take great shot after great shot, chimp the trash on the fly, hit my shout-outs from the stands, get variety, hit every kid, be courteous and polite to every parent and in the end... not sell a single photo. Why? Because the images go online too late or not at all because of logistical problems, promo cards are not handed out at the event, the website is slow or impossible to navigate, or the prices could be outrageous. And none of this would be my fault.
3) I really don't have any right to see a photographers sales whether they are my photos or not. That's none of my business. I'm there to take photos and do the best job possible for my employer.
It's simple. Pay me a decent day rate and I'll bust my hump and be a strong represtative for your company. If you like my work, hire me again. If you don't, don't hire me again, but don't play games by paying me a commission on sales. I'm sticking my neck out and taking a risk on you... you take a risk on me. |
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Wally Nell, Photographer
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CAIRO | EG | EGYPT | Posted: 9:29 AM on 06.19.09 |
| ->> 'Quality is just an excuse for lack of quantity' - Rob Joubert |
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