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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Bartering for pics
Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 2:47 AM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> Hey guys (gals) I met with a client tonight who put up an offer to barter for some of my work. It's a big name hotel string and the offer is cash and a few nights stay anywhere where they have a hotel. Not a bad deal I suppose but, how do the rest of you feel about bartering? I'm not planning on going anywhere in the near future so it wouldn't really help me out although they did say it was transferrable. The only reason I didn't tell him to go hump a bar stool right off is because it's one of the bigger chains and if the shoot goes well there is a very strong possiblity I land the other hotels. I did a few test shots and they seemed very impressed and would like to go forward. I'm going to write a qoute for a half day rate (advertisement rate) and expenses. Would you go for half cash and the rest in hotel night? Not sure here because I've never done the barter thing. I looked in past threads and couldn't find anything specific. Any suggestions or experience here? |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 3:14 AM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> Got to consider, what is it worth for you? Where do you travel? How often? When you do travel, is it all paid for it by work - or would you be able to use some frequent flier miles up and cash in those free nights in a classy joint in say NYC or Hawaii? Or does it mean you'll just not have to pay a few $99 nights... |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 5:41 AM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> It sounds like a great idea as long as they have a hotel somewhere you want to stay. If I could trade a day's shooting for a week at a nice Paris hotel I'd go for it in a second. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 6:45 AM on 06.03.09 |
->> Barter is great. Most of the time when I barter I come away with stuff valued much more than what I would have charged in a cash transaction. You just need to make sure you work it tight, particularly when it's for services.
For example, make sure your hotel barter has few or no restrictions on renewal...no blackout dates and make sure it's for "business class" rooms. If it's a coupon or something that has an expiration date, make sure it's out to at least TWO years not just one. If it's a cash-value gift certificate or "gift card", read the fine print to make very sure that it does not reduce in value on a monthly basis (very common with gift cards). If it does and they can't change it, negotiate the value up to compensate.
You don't have to lead with a laundry list of restrictions - let them present their deal first. If those kind of restrictions are on there, negotiate them out. Always negotiate for barter worth more than what you'd charge in cash. Cash is the ultimate in flexibility...barter is restrictive. You need to be compensated for the loss in flexibility. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:08 AM on 06.03.09 |
->> Bartering is good. I once bartered with a judge. Promised him great family portraits in return for a "not guilty" verdict...oh, wait, that's bribing....sorry. (that was a joke for our humor impaired members hovering over their inappropriate, huh, and off topic button)
I agree with our two esteemed senior members above. If you can come out with a deal you are happy with go for it. Bartering is a time honored system which was used long before the creation of "money". |
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Aaron Rhoads, Photographer
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McComb | MS | USA | Posted: 9:40 AM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> Where did William Shatner come in on this? |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 10:03 AM on 06.03.09 |
->> Nick-
I get paid well to shoot hotels in the Philadelphia area. We don't barter...we charge our standard fees based on the amount of time we spend being creative and their intended usage (we do offer liberal usage rights).
You should only barter if this is something you'd use and it's to your financial advantage. Otherwise you'll end up getting screwed and essentially working for free or a reduced rate. If you charge a fair price you should be able to afford the hotel without bartering.
Delane |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:28 AM on 06.03.09 |
->> It depends!!
My buddy just got a free trip to..... Greece, In a barter deal with a resort Hotel!!
That is not too bad!! |
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Tom Weis, Photographer
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Forest Hills | NY | United States | Posted: 10:52 AM on 06.03.09 |
->> I once bartered with a gym for several years' worth of membership in exchange for photos. Guess what - the gym was sold and bought by new owners halfway through my bartered time. I lost what was left over since the new owners wouldn't honor my deal.
Don't think this hotel chain will go out business or change ownership? Look at GM.
If you are drawing up a contract for this deal, make sure you have some kind of clause to guard against this.
Personally, I say get paid for this commercial gig. |
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Nina Zhito, Photographer
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bay area | CA | | Posted: 11:10 AM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> you still have to enter the value of the item as income, but the concept is great as long as you have terms and an agreement spelled out, and YOU WANT what they are offering you. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 12:35 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> Bartering picks up steam when the economy goes in the tank, so this isn't surprising.
Most of the advice here is good. Say yes to the potential client and you've probably got a job.
Having said that, just consider that you still need cash. Make sure you get enough cash on this deal so that you are ok if the sucker does tank.
The other question I would ask is this: Are there any other hotels in the chain in other locations that need your services that would also look at bartering? Might be something you can roll over and over. What would you do with 20 nights of free lodging?
Make sure that they give you certificate that's transferable. That way you can give it as a gift, or auction it off on ebay - and generate cash :D. |
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John Strohsacker, Photographer
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Baltimore | MD | USA | Posted: 12:55 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
Topic 420 - Bartering Income
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services received in exchange for goods or services you provide must be included in income in the year received.
Generally, you report this income on Form 1040, Schedule C (PDF), Profit or Loss from Business. If you failed to report this income, correct your return by filing a Form 1040X. Refer to Topic 308 for Amended Return information." |
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John Strohsacker, Photographer
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 1:10 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> John,
Tax codes for bartering vary from state to state. In the State of Iowa, there is no tax iirc on the bartered amount. Obviously, in the case of of the OP, the cash amount would be taxed.
YMMV. |
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John Strohsacker, Photographer
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Baltimore | MD | USA | Posted: 2:07 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> Michael,
I am speaking of Federal IRS Tax Laws. I linked the IRS code to remind folks bartering is a taxable event. It is important to keep this in mind when negotiating. Large hotel chains will follow IRS rules closely and most likely require W-9 for any payments over $600.
Yes state taxes vary but your Federal Tax return 1040 (schedule C) or 1120 follows IRS rules on bartering.
John |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:05 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> What about trading for a byline?
I do that all the time... |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> Nic -
Wish it were the case that your post had a smiley, and thus people would appropriately mark it "funny".
A byline is more than likely, a non-taxable event since it is all but worthless from an economic standpoint.
:-) |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 5:03 PM on 06.03.09 |
->> "A byline is more than likely, a non-taxable event since it is all but worthless from an economic standpoint."
Not if it's all caps and REALLY BIG! |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 8:51 PM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> who the hell is "mr. huh" on this thread? Are you really that clueless? LOL!!! |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 06.03.09 |
| ->> darn it!!! I just realized some fool is going to give me an "off topic" for my last post......OH NO!!!!! he's probably going to give me an "off topic" for this post! but wait! ....maybe they're going to give me another "huh"....... |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 2:05 AM on 06.04.09 |
| ->> As I expected, some great feed back. Thanks everyone. I won't feel so un-armed for my next encounter with the GM. I have a pretty good idea where I'll go with this. |
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Kevin Clifford, Photographer
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Reno | NV | United States | Posted: 2:34 AM on 06.04.09 |
->> Nick,
I would only do it if it benefited you, such as with a continued client (they will be profitable) or a great place to stay while on vacation. Hope it works out.
Chuck,
Perhaps your dino friend died from too many "huh" clicks. http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=993 |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 6:10 AM on 06.04.09 |
->> John, I realize that we were on seperate pages tax reg wise.
Of course, I'm surprised... no one asked the question.. so if you sell the certificate on eBay, is that taxable income?
Answer: Yes
Will 95% of the people report it as such?
Answer: NO
For the record, I would. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 7:00 AM on 06.04.09 |
->> Michael -
If you pay taxes on the initial barter transaction and subsequently sell the item for less than the imputed income of the taxable barter transaction how would that create subsequent taxable income? |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:08 AM on 06.04.09 |
->> Mark, I'm no CPA, - I was referring to the State of Iowa. The barter would create no tax situation on a state level if the regulations are still the same. The selling of certificates would create CASH, and that consequence almost always triggers a tax situation.
I'd have to ask my CPA. I'm a lot better at finance than accounting as my grades in business school would indicate :P .
Michael |
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Diana Porter, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 6:36 PM on 06.04.09 |
| ->> I barter all the time. Especially for things I need around my house such as landscaping, tile work, carpet cleaning. I've found a lot of these businesses need professional photographs for their brochures and websites and just don't know how to find one or don't have the time. Works out great! |
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