| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Plane nose art- ME worried it will offend readers
Patrick Kane, Photographer
 |
Petersburg | VA | USA | Posted: 12:45 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Hey guys,
I have a question and was looking for your two cents. We are running a Memorial Day series on a local man who was killed in the Kassel Raid, a disastrous WWII mission. We have collected a few nice historical photographs, including one of his crew, B24s in flight and the nose art on his plane, the Clay Pigeon.
The problem is the nose art. His B24 was adorned with a busty topless woman and my managing editor thinks this will never get by our publisher. Any ideas for tactful editing? It will be marked as such, of course. I was thinking of fading to background from the corner to make the art PG. |
|
Patrick Kane, Photographer
|
Darren Whitley, Photographer
|
Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 12:57 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> If you create a collage, there's no reason that portion of the image couldn't be covered by another image. The smaller you publish the photo, the less problem you're likely to have. |
|
Alan Stewart, Photographer
|
Corydon | IN | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> One thing I've done to skirt something like this was to just use the text (crop everything but the text so that it "floats" on the page). If the chick is your problem, then don't use her. |
|
Patrick Kane, Photographer
|
Tom Knier, Photographer
|
Lancaster | PA | USA | Posted: 1:58 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> I'm ON A PLANE!
-T-Pain |
|
Fredrik Naumann, Photographer
|
Oslo | Oslo | Norway | Posted: 2:19 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> A great illustration of cultural differences. I can't imagine such an image being controversial here in Norway at all. Or in the rest of Europe for that matter. I think even Christian newspapers would could run this, given the context.
Not only is it (just) a drawing, it is also a historic (as opposed to a current) picture of a drawing. This is the way it was back during WWII. So by "tacful editing" , you are in fact supressing both art and historical facts. |
|
Kevin Leas, Photographer, Assistant
|
Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 2:20 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Personally, I don't see why the photo shouldn't run as is, but that's just me.
To address your question of how to censor (not edit) it, throwing a mug over it seems easy enough. |
|
Aaron Rhoads, Photographer
|
McComb | MS | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Have one of the crew hold up a couple of melons so it covers the chest of the topless woman. |
|
Steve Ueckert, Photographer
|
Houston | TX | | Posted: 3:33 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Turn it into a hallmark card and overlay some strategically placed type as a headline. |
|
N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
|
Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 3:49 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> America. Land of the Free, home of the prudes. |
|
Grant Gartland, Photographer, Assistant
|
Bloomington | MN | USA | Posted: 4:01 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> I think that there are really only 3 choices here.
1. Crop to not show the "offending" parts.
2. Run the pic as is because it is a true representation of the whole picture.
3. Don't run that particular pic.
I don't think there is a middle ground here except for #1, but that is just my humble opinion. |
|
Mike Huffstatler, Photographer, Assistant
|
Rancho Cucamonga | Ca | United States | Posted: 4:10 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Run the picture as-is. Do you edit pictures of famous naked statues, or other artwork? That would be more controversial than anything I would think.
the art is pertinent to the story, it is historical and it is extremely mild in this day and age.
and this is from a mildly-conservative Christian point of view. |
|
Kirby Yau, Photographer, Assistant
|
San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 4:19 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Copy and Paste from the racist camera post>>>>
"I'm a hundred Percent Chinese, I'm not offended either..."
I agree with Mike Huffstatler. This is just another piece of art. |
|
Jim Owens, Photographer
|
Cincinnati | OH | usa | Posted: 5:16 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Run it as is and run it by the publisher before it goes to pagination. Let the Pub. make the decision.
Ridiculous ? prudish ? Yup.
Then again, jobs are hard to come by these days.
Let us know if the Pub "busts" you. |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 6:30 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> What about the CHILDREN????
In all seriousness...yes, there are naked statues. But people can and do worry about where they're placed.
Patrick - you work in a conservative (prudish) state and the paper is as public as public gets. If it were me, I'd simply not run it. It would be one thing if the nose art appeared in the background of another photo; then you might try cropping it or obscuring it. But to do so, in THIS particular photo, simply obscures too much of the photo.
The only exception would be if the nose art itself is somehow pertinent to the story (i.e., Glamorous Glynnis or Memphis Belle). I don't gather from what you've said that it is. So its absence, in my mind, would not detract at all from the story. |
|
Renay Johnson, Photographer
 |
San Diego | CA | | Posted: 6:31 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Fighter planes adorned with "pinup girls" and busty girls were a part of the WWII culture and should not be edited out. There are some images in the world that are offensive but that's another party. This image simply shows a part of fighter pilot's lively hood which was his plane. Run the image with no alternations, or don't run it at all IMO. |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 6:35 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> Kirby - That's a good one.
And by the way - I've been told many times that I'm a big boob, and I'm not offended either. :) |
|
Dave Amorde, Photographer
|
Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 7:13 PM on 05.19.09 |
->> For starters, I may be old and going blind, but the curveline of the "top" portion of the pinup's bathing suit is there, clear as day. This is a perfect example of the type of "dodging the chaplain" that was common in that era, and continues to this day on other levels. Wanna nipple? No problem - just paint the suit to suggest that the nipple is really just an adornment on the costume.
Run the photo. |
|
Brian Tietz, Photographer
|
Fort Myers | FL | USA | Posted: 8:04 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Dave could be right I see the swimsuit outline, could that nipple be a dust spec that happened to land in a unfortunate place? Looks like an old photo with a few other dust specs. |
|
Alan Look, Photographer
|
Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 8:18 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Does NatGeo edit all their footage? |
|
Greg Cooper, Photo Editor
|
Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 11:17 PM on 05.19.09 |
| ->> Why assume that the publisher will not approve? Does the editor run all editorial content by the publisher before you go to print? What is special about this case? If running it complete is the best way to tell the story, then run it as it is. My two cents. Let us know what decision is made, please. |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 05.20.09 |
->> Half your readers have them, the other half know what they are. Whose left to offend?
Heck if anything, use this as your segue in to charging for online content. Blur the photo out Girls Gone Wild-infomercial-style then tell the readers they can go online - and for a small fee - see the original image. |
|
Patrick Kane, Photographer
|
Petersburg | VA | USA | Posted: 12:38 AM on 05.20.09 |
->> Hey guys, thanks for the responses! I was out chasing a bear today and didn't have a chance to talk with the bosses.
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1909243017?bclid=1716500255...
Trust me, I'm not trying to be John Ashcroft putting the drapes on Lady Liberty. The page designer and I both feel it should be used unedited but inside, since we have stonger art for the cover. But I appreciate hearing some options, and will update you guys on our final decision.
And, as an aside, would anyone else here have second thoughts climbing aboard a warplane called the "Clay Pigeon?!?" |
|
Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
|
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 3:56 AM on 05.20.09 |
->> Patrick,
If the image is inappropriate for your readers just don't run it.
--Mark |
|
Fredrik Naumann, Photographer
|
Alan Herzberg, Photographer
|
Elm Grove | WI | USA | Posted: 9:21 AM on 05.20.09 |
->> "I was out chasing a bear today..."
I gotta hang out with Patrick sometime. |
|
Shaun Ward, Photographer
|
Perth | Tayside | Scotland | Posted: 9:23 AM on 05.20.09 |
->> In the UK it would be no problem to show this as long as the story ran on page 3.
I am just curious to who could be offended by this? |
|
Aaron Rhoads, Photographer
|
McComb | MS | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 05.20.09 |
| ->> Shaun we here in the U.S., parts of it anyway, live in an upside down culture. Violence is ok, more than that somtimes. But nudity, art and sex is taboo. |
|
Andrew Sullivan, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
Kissimmee | FL | USA | Posted: 4:09 PM on 05.20.09 |
->> Why is nobody offended that the word 'pigeon' is misspelled? I think we're focused on the wrong element as being offensive.
Andrew Sullivan
www.picandrew.com |
|
Kirby Yau, Photographer, Assistant
|
Peter Wine, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Dayton | OH | USA | Posted: 7:24 PM on 05.20.09 |
->> For at least a generation, we've established a culture where it's ok to look at and enjoy violent TV shows, movies, records and books, but it's bad to enjoy looking at a person that isn't the victim of violence.
I know that it isn't the only reason for our heavily violent culture, but it seems to be adding positive reinforcement to it.
A balance in many things is important. Seems to me this is one where balance is critical.
Learning to appreciate art (whether a painting, sculpture or whatever form) is way down on the list of things our kids find 'cool' now. In some areas it's only the 'geeks' or 'funny' people that go to art museums and stroll through the entire building.
Given what's on TV advertising now, a drawing like this seems somewhat tame to me, but I see where some people might not agree.
Given the context of the piece, I'd say it should be ok as is, but another thing to consider is that the nipple that we see (or think we see, it's possible it is just dust) may have been added later, because I also see the line that appears to be a bathing suit or similar attire. Perhaps there is another photo of the plane you can use for reference (not for print.)
We have a mural around here that had that, uh, alteration added after the work was done. It's clear that the girl is in a typical casual top, and yet... |
|
Michael Granse, Photographer
|
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 05.21.09 |
->> Bomber crews in England faced 1/3 odds (this estimate varies) of being shot down on any given mission, and most started their tour of duty knowing that they would fly on at least 20 missions though this number increased over the course of the war. There is a great book called "Wing and a Prayer" written by Harry Crosby, a B-17 navigator in Europe during WWII if you are interested in a first hand account of the life of a bomber crew.
I love the fact that the name of the plane ("Clay Pidgeon") is derived from something designed to be used for target practice. Americans have a long tradition of making jokes in seemingly humorless situations, and it appears that the crew of The Clay Pidgeon were no exception to this.
For the crew of the planes, the nose art became a team logo which reinforced their identity, enhanced their comaradarie, and gave them the confidence that The Clay Pidgeon, not just serial number 34-8-9875989, would carry them safely home from the mission. These planes were practicaly living things in the minds of their crews, and the nose art is a big part of this personfication. My opinion of the issue is that the plane itself is part of the crew, and that as such its photograph (inclusive of the potentialy offending nose art) is absolutely appropriate if not mandatory. I do, however, have the luxury of not being the person who will be in trouble if some readers are offended.
The name on the nose of the plane, incidentaly, might not be an incorrect spelling. Perhaps the pilot/captain's name was Clayton Pidgeon? It is a bit of an unusual name, but no more so than the name of the contact person for Pocket Wizard repair:
Maureen Pidgeon
Production / Repair Manager
(802) 658-0038 Ext 214
LPA Design
41 IDX Drive, Suite 265
South Burlington, Vt 05403 |
|
Alan Stewart, Photographer
|
Corydon | IN | USA | Posted: 10:26 AM on 05.22.09 |
| ->> Michael, you need to click on Kirby's link ... |
|
Patrick Kane, Photographer
|
Petersburg | VA | USA | Posted: 8:03 PM on 05.27.09 |
| ->> Oops forgot to update ya'll! We used another photo of the nose art - with an airman we think is our local hero and the painted lady - inside on day two of the three day series. We haven't heard a peep, as I suspected. |
|
James Madelin, Photographer
|
AKL | Auckland | New Zealand | Posted: 3:55 AM on 05.30.09 |
->> although this is no longer up for debate, as it's been published, i've come across this sort of thing before... editors altering (yes, with photoshop, no not by me), removing or 'creatively' cropping images because they *might* cause offence.
quite frankly, i find this enormously wrong. first as it involves imposing one's own morals on others, with absolutely no basis for whether any offence will take place and secondly, it then generally involves alterations that are either downright unethical or cutting very close to being so.
i'd say that if readers are offended by historical depictions like that nose-art, the paper that published them should stand by the courage of their own convictions, and those of the crews in the photos.
needless to say, there are instances when it's clear to everyone in the office that offence will take place, in which case the content in question should not be run at all.
just my humble opinion for the illustrious ss.com message board archive ! |
|
Fraser Britton, Photographer
|
Ste Anne de Bellevue | QC | Canada | Posted: 10:48 AM on 05.30.09 |
->> It's amazing how the editor would probably be fine with photos of Michaelangelo's David...
It speaks volumes of the social environment in the US. |
|
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|