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Really?!? Have we sunk that low?
Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 10:20 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> The Special Feature featuring Phillip Andrews images from Spring Break are to say the least, a low I have seen on this website since I started coming here. I mean really, what is the subject of the array or gratuitous T&A photos beside showing a bunch of drunk college kids acting stupid. Are we not professionals?
Is this not a site dedicated to those who are serious about their craft. Don't get me wrong, I would do a spring break story, but REALLY! Are you kidding me? |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 10:22 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> It's timely and fun. I like it. Wish they had captions though. Is that 2nd image a fight? |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 10:23 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> And with that, let the fireworks begin. |
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Eric Isaacs, Photographer
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Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 10:36 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> While I have no issue with the images nor the the photographer, I agree it is an odd choice for a special feature and perhaps even inappropriate content. That said it will be gone in a day or three and something new will replace it. *shrug* |
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Patrick Smith, Photographer
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Chattanooga | TN | USA | Posted: 10:42 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Are you serious? I think these are incredibly storytelling images that were approached in a editorial way. I think that if any of us were given an assignment to cover spring break by a major magazine we would work our hardest to make images like these. |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 10:43 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> I peruse this web site every day and have seen other galleries of spring breakers and this is one of the best I have seen yet. Good use of color and contrast, a variety of scenes and frankly a true and accurate representation of many of the things that go on during Spring Break. It kept me looking from start to finish.
Dave, I'm just trying to get your logic here. Is it unprofessional to document this type of event? Only two photos, 4 and 8, in the gallery might constitute what you deem "gratuitous T&A." The others are just girls in bikinis and guys without their shirts on drinking and dancing and maybe fighting, but hey that stuff all goes on.
I just really don't see what the big issue is here. I know it's not jive with some's taste meter, but if Phillip set out to document what happens at some Spring Break destinations then I think he hit it on the head. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 10:46 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> I don't think is very viable as storytelling as it is Girls Gone Wild.
I mean who picks these and what is the thinking, what is the criteria? I posted images from an ash spill in our county which is an environmental nightmare and nothing! I still think it's gratuitous. |
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Stan Cochrane, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Don't know, it's a toss up between this and the palm leaf bikinis ,,,, don't think either one is worthy. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | Lower 48 | Posted: 10:53 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> Uh oh ... guess this means you won't be wanting that autographed, collector's edition of "Sex" that I got you, Doonan???
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Madonna/dp/8440631170
Dude, seriously -- lighten up. Even though I'm painfully liberal about how I see the world, even putting on a stuffy newspaper journalist's hat ... these images? They're nothing to get up in arms about.
I think Phillip did a nice job of covering what that scene is like. And let me tell you, I've seen far worse.
Looks to me like the Powers That Be at this site are just trying to diversify the content of the special features -- not everything can be baseball, tutorials on setting up a remote, or pictures of people's feet -- while sliding a little well-deserved credit to a college kid.
Hey Phillip -- nice work, dude. Way to enterprise something fun and interesting, even if you were down there to party for yourself. It's some decent documentary work, regardless.
Just do your thing and ignore all this jibba jabba.
Cheers,
- gerry - |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | Lower 48 | Posted: 10:56 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> "I posted images from an ash spill in our county which is an environmental nightmare and nothing!"
Well, I didn't want to go there, but you pulled my arm.
Before I even said anything in this thread, I went your member page. Sorry, my man, but those pictures are weak. Hit me up off list if you want to talk about ways you could better approach that story. As is, flat, pedestrian and not really all that storytelling.
Pardon the harshness of critique, but you totally opened yourself up for it.
Best,
- g - |
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Stan Cochrane, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Sorry, not worhty is incorrect. They are worthy, just not in/on this forum. Is this not Sportshooter? |
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Sandy Huffaker, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I see it from a completely different perspective. I think the images illustrate a part of teenage, adolescent culture in America. The photos are reminiscent of Lauren Greenfield's photographs http://www.laurengreenfield.com/ I don't think Andrew shot this in any way to show T&A for the sake of T&A. To me, they show kind of a sad underbelly side of Spring Break. The girl passed out in the entry way is a perfect example of the absurdity of what these teens do while on break and to me is actually quite sad. Job well done Mr Phillip's |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 11:04 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> Somehow ... glass houses and stones come to mind...
-- Mike |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 11:06 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> I've often wondered what was the motivation behind some of the feature selections. The site belongs to somebody else and it's their decision to make as to what goes up there.
In defense of the owners, I believe they try to offer a variety of features. You have to be envious of the assignment and the opportunity Phillip had to head south and away from the lousy, cold weather.
I don't know why Dave believes these are T&A photos. In my opinion, there isn't a T&A pic among the selections. There seems to be more guys than gals too. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> G.J., I admire you for having the nerve to say it here. A hundred different photographers would have shot it a hundred different ways. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> Stan,
SportsShooter is not JUST SPORTS!
This is a place for photography including photojournalism, just as we have commercial photographers, T&I, Wedding photos, newspaper, and studio/food photographers here.
---
Dave,
Calling out a photographer like this on a public forum for images of something really happening and current is totally inappropriate. His images are not.
Philip had the drive to go out and shoot something, he portrayed spring break as he saw it, its not like he set situations up, etc.
Pip's work has color, framing, moments, emotion, and covers an issue of modern teenage society... he photographed things in a way that went beyond the pedestrian.
If you, or anyone else really has an issue and is offended by seeing some stomachs on occasion, privately message the photographer or the site admins., don't drag things through the mud here. |
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Andrew Sullivan, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Kissimmee | FL | USA | Posted: 11:16 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> Not the way I would have addressed the choice for Special Feature... but I kind of think that as a forum for professional sports photography, that maybe SS.com should have an 'Off Topic' marked against itself.
Andrew Sullivan
www.picandrew.com |
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Paul W Gillespie, Photographer
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Annapolis | MD | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Its funny I never would have looked at the feature if not for this thread. The lead photo did not interest me. To be honest, for a feature being called out for too much T&A, I did not see enough to get upset about, not that I would. |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> While Sportsshooter is about sports at its core, I think the web site has moved beyond that. The monthly clip contest has a "News" category, which most of the time has nothing to do with sports. |
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Kevin Leas, Photographer, Assistant
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 11:38 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> I'm going to go ahead at disagree 100% with the OP.
Sportsshooter may have started as a site dedicated only to taking pictures of sports, but it's since evolved to embrace all corners of photojournalism. This gallery, in my opinion, is a solid set of photographs that makes the viewer feel as though they're actually there. That's what photojournalism is about, isn't it? I'm especially drawn to the fourth shot, as it's not only well composed and captures the moment, but it also maintains the anonymity of both women in the image. It's provocative and telling, but without the potentially damaging effects of exposing who the people are. Phillip - is that frame cropped at all for that reason, or was that how it was shot?
The only thing I don't like about the gallery is the lack of captions. I know it would be tough to get info - especially accurate info - in those situations, but it's frustrating to look at a photo and be left thinking "what the heck is going on?"
If you're truly upset about these photos, do you have anything to say about the Funpix of Bert working with the AVP players? Are those "gratuitous T&A" as well? And when you say this..."Don't get me wrong, I would do a spring break story, but REALLY! Are you kidding me?" What exactly do you mean - this is what Spring Break looks like. If you're not showing an event as it happens, you're not doing your job. |
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Brian Dowling, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 11:40 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Keep in mind the shooter is in college and the trek to Florida, South Padre, or Lake Havasu is a ritual for college students each year numbering in the millions. I think it would have been different if he was forty and went to see girls in bikinis, but this is part of his or at the least his peers culture. |
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Nick Adams, Photographer
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Darjeeling | India | India | Posted: 11:44 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> Dave - I guess you wanted Phillip to shoot like you?
Not get in the middle of the action, shoot super wide, and leave out any visual storytelling elements?
It's spring break. He captured what any real photojournalist would during spring break. |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer, Assistant
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 04.15.09 |
->> First of all, I agree completely with G.J. and Sandy. These pictures tell the story and I have no problem with them at all.
But can we stop the continual chastising of people for "calling out a photog on a public forum" bit. Yeah, we all understand the issues associated with saying something in a public forum, but I think the constant patronizing is getting to be a bit much.
I think Dave was more calling out SS.com for posting it as the main feature than actually calling out Phillip for the pictures. It's getting to be a bit much. Just last week some folks jumped all over message board poster for not naming names on a public forum, basically calling him a coward for not including names. Then when it comes to someone naming a name here the person gets jumped for calling someone out.
Same thing goes for folks who like to see different types of features as the main item but then complain about it when SS does post something different. The fact is people are really just complaining when it not THEIR photos used as the main feature. I mean come on. Ten photos of ash drifting on a lake is supposed to be better than a story-telling collection about young society because it has a few bikinis in it? Go out and make some better photos and they'll get featured.
I surely think we can find a few things better to bitch about than either of these two "problems." |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer, Assistant
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 11:54 AM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I guess I need a copy editor. Anyway, my opinion stands, even if I forgot to edit out a repeated sentence. |
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Chris Stanfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 12:22 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Doonan wrote: I posted images from an ash spill in our county which is an environmental nightmare and nothing!
I didn't comment on your photos because I didn't have anything constructive to say, other than to mention I thought they lacked the type of storytelling I have come to appreciate. I hope you won't take offense...
Life is full of people who are free spirits. Out youth experiencing spring break is a rite of passage and the subject has and always will be worth exploring. You strike me as someone who like to toss turds in the pool - divisive in nature, if you will.
And no, I'm not kidding you so don't ask that question again. |
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Fredrik Naumann, Photographer
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Oslo | Oslo | Norway | Posted: 12:40 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> I was about to request an Off Topic button too. Then I remembered the last time I was featured on SS.com....my pictures weren't sports either.
Grin!
PS Selfish plug to admin: my current ones are VERY sporty! Wink,hint etc |
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Armando Solares, Photographer
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Englewood | FL | USA | Posted: 12:41 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Are you kidding? You are really offended by this as a feature? The photos are a perfect representation of what Spring Break is like. I grew up in Florida, and I've been to many a Spring Break, in Daytona, Fort Lauderdale, Miami Beach, Panama City etc. This is what happens like it or not. I used to love going to swim practice during spring break at The Swimming Hall of Fame in Fort Lauderdale back in the early 80s because my mother would have to drive along A1A past the Candy Store, and many other hotels that aren't there anymore. As a 12 -year-old it was great to see the craziness. It was better than any tv show. There would be kids lined up watching the belly flop, bikini, wet t-shirt contests etc... There were kids everywhere getting drunk, acting stupid, and having a good time. This is what a college kid sees on Spring Break. This is what people see.
Phillip, you did a very nice job. Generic captions would have been nice though. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 12:43 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I found the photos to be insightful, thought provoking, and shows what photojournalism can be. I see no gratuitous T&A. I especially liked the last two images depicting the aftermath. For a student Phillip certainly does show a promising eye and excellent use of color and composition. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 12:51 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> I looked at the images and two things bounced into my rapidly failing brain:
1) I KNEW someone was not going to like the choice and...
2) The participants in the pictures.. their parents must be "so proud".
That second comment shouldn't be taken the wrong way. I think the photographer did a good job of conveying what was going on. Whenever a image makes me uncomfortable - that's usually a good image. So,Dave, it wasn't the image of the 2 girls kissing that sent you over the edge, was it?
For the record, there were 2 or 3 images that I thought were misses, but if I thought I could do better, I guess I'd go back to college so I could have spring break and shoot it my way...
Wouldn't that be something :):):) |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 12:53 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> I particularly appreciate the constructive criticism that has been posted. But the ones for example
three members who sent me emails with an alias are validation to how it has become
Example#1:
pop @pap.com(anonymous):
nobody cares what you think about spring break
dufus
Example #2: hands@palm.tv (another anonymous):
THE PHOTOS YOU HAVE ON SS ARE VERY WEAK
YOU SHOULD NOT DIS SOMEONE ELSE WHEN YOUR STUFF IS
WEAK
Example #3 Alex M Wes:(alias?)
Okay... I tried to refrain, but I'm not going to. Seriously? YOU sunk
that low? To act like a five-year-old on a site filled with
professionals from every scope of the industry and call out a
photographer who did a well done, emotion filled, light hearted,
timely essay on spring break and then you have the audacity to
ask why your seriously horrendous photos of an ash spill (not a
single one having a person, or decent composition, or use of light
for that matter) didn't get banner'ed? Seriously? I would have
guessed you were still in high school, not 47, just by reading your
post alone. Grow up.
Actually, come to think of it, way to be the resident sports
shooter a** hole. I guess we always need one.
Nice kind of validates my comments. maybe I should re-think renewing next year. If you are going to attack someone, have the balls to come forward. chickens! |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 12:57 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Secondly I know my images are weak. Unfortunately I was on vacation when it occurred, and missed a lot of opportunities that I would have had if I were here. I was posting them to inform some who do not know the scope of the devastation. I will try to do better. I appreciate the feedback. I understand it's not just sports here, as was pointed out to me. |
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Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 1:01 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I guess Alex Wes above never met Chuck Liddy :) |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 1:23 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I think the last image of the girl alone in the hallway is pretty dramatic. Kind of a "burnt out" sort of look. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Hudson | NH | USA | Posted: 1:23 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> From Doonan's blog...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QWO60sIPmnw/SMg6q6KLXRI/AAAAAAAAAEE/D-4mbf1IsLc/s...
Looks like you got bit by the Girls Gone Wild bug too :)
Dave,
When I was first shooting for newspapers I'd look at all different styles of shooting. Somehow I got into my head that the newspaper formula was the "right" formula. However, after much work, looking at thousands of photos, workshops, critiques, failure, failure and failure, I now find it safe to say, I understand the meaning of personal vision. I would criticize mentally the POYi results, not because they were bad photos, but because I didn't understand what a real solid photo was. I'd look at APAD and scratch my head of why it was a good photo. I'd be perplexed at other photojournalists picks for their sites. However, with time and experience, visual maturation has developed and is still growing. I have a ways to go, we all do. And yes, the most important, maturation as an individual kicked in. At the cusp of 30 I'm sure when I'm 40 I'll think I was immature now. And I'm sure I'll think my work from now sucks in the future, we all do.
While some may blast you, learn from this. That's what this site and life is all about: Learning, happiness, growing, advancing and helping others along the way.
Five years from now, if servers permit, and you allow yourself to be teachable, you will look at this thread and look at your work and with a wry smile think to yourself, "Man, I've come a long way." |
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Steven Mullensky, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Port Townsend | WA. | USA | Posted: 1:32 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> D**n! I did't see any T or A for that matter. Not even a wet
t-shirt contest. Were those shots pulled before I saw this thread? |
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Nina Zhito, Photographer
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bay area | CA | | Posted: 1:49 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> nah, i'm with dave our OP on this one and applaud his "speaking truth to power". i can think of 100 more worthy photo subjects and photo essays to occupy such a important place on what is considered to be a forum for photographic excellence, inspiration, community, and education. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 1:50 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Touche!
I bow to your superiority Corey! |
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John Birk, Photographer, Assistant
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Chris Parent, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Harahan | LA | United States | Posted: 2:18 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> I have to say these images really show the scope of Spring Break. Phillip very carefully shot all these images to hide some of the more sexual overtones on Spring Break. These images are very tame compared to some of what he could have shot. With that said, these images are very good. I love the portrayal of Spring Break. I think he did an awesome job with these and hope there are more. I'd definitely buy a book based on these. |
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Amy Wallot, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | USA | Posted: 2:53 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> To me, these photos speak to the way young women objectify themselves for the attention of the opposite sex. I think these photos are really, really sad. For the girls and boys. Especially #8. It was only a handful of years ago that I was in college and these photos are a reminder of how crazy it was. But at the same time I can painfully look back, as many of us can, and wonder, “What was I thinking?!”
Philip has a great eye. The color and use of light in these photos are beautiful, making it an excellent choice for the daily feature. He is a talented young photographer. So much so that he was named the 2009 Kentucky Student Photographer of the Year by the Kentucky News Photographer’s Association. Check out his winning portfolio at:
http://www.knpa.org/winners/09stupoy/
Nice work, Philip. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 3:20 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Is it just me, or does Western Kentucky crank out a lot of really good photographers? |
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Patrick Smith, Photographer
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Chattanooga | TN | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 04.15.09 |
| ->> Wesley, I probably can't answer that in an unbiased way, but yes. |
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John J. Kim, Photographer
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chicago | il | usa | Posted: 3:23 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> i posted up an update about pink marshmallow bunnies called peeps. how come no one bagged the powers-that-be about putting it on the special features section?
c'mon, pink marshmallow bunnies? how is that as visually valuable and intriguing as trixie and chad spreading std's and getting alcohol poisoning on panama beach?
point is, what they put on top of the screen is a wide variety of stuff we picture-types do (at work, for personal reasons, for sheer eye-candy value, etc.), and that is a wonderful thing. if we only saw pictures of nascar and professional football, it would get kind of lame, don't you think?
i don't utilize other photography-related sites, partly because i like sportsshooter.com for what it is - a site dedicated to sharing thoughts, news, trends about photography in its many facets in a utilitarian, non-judgmental manner.
pink marshmallow bunnies, motor cross, drunk teenagers on spring break, discussions about magic arms, mark rebilas' thrice-weekly updates - the more variety, the better. |
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Allen Murabayashi, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 3:46 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Nathaniel Welch did an entire book on the subject called "Spring Broke."
I agree with Sandy on this one. It's a social document of adolescence in the US -- no different than covering anorexics (like Greenfield's "Thin") or Trent Nelson's coverage of the polygamist cult. People might object to the subject matter, but it's an accurate portrayal of a social phenomenon.
10 images of admittedly weak oil spill photos that don't show any human element vs. great spring break photos that do? choice is easy imo. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 4:00 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> My last comments and I'm going to move on.
I think some of you are missing my point. The quality of the photos are good,, but the subject matter is disturbing. No cutlines or a description of what or why. My images are admittedly weak, and I feel that here are a lot of good photographers who are trying to capture life in other ways other that a drunken beach party. The craft we perform should not be dismissed in any way. I feel he has the right to shoot whatever he wants, but when we (myself included) place these photos online they are subject to scrutiny. I just feel there are better stories to tell here, instead of this, or peeps, or feet. Maybe I am taking this too seriously. and contrary to what many of you think I am not trying to be malicious. I just think there are better stories to tell. To many of you who do not like my images, thank you . The flaming criticism you have given me is heard loud and clear, and inspires me to be better. I just hope the ones who don't have the guts to come forward and leave nasty anonymous emails will feel the same.
AND DONE. |
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Ian Halperin, Photographer
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Plano(Dallas) | TX | USA | Posted: 4:09 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Boy if there was ever a case for "marketing" an assignment, this is it.
Imagine if Phillip this had a cool headline, captions, maybe some music (rights released of course) and a video clip or two.
The images seem to pass the test of being a pretty fair and accurate representation of what he saw.
Maybe that's the lesson in this. When in doubt, provide a little more content. |
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David Manning, Photographer
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Athens | GA | | Posted: 4:16 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> I've met Phillip on many an occasion.
He's an excellent documentary photographer and a super nice guy.
I think that his work in these photos evokes a social commentary about spring break and the way alcohol is abused.
IMO, to simply view them as a "drunken beach party" misses the point entirely; rather you should be taken aback as to what occurs during Spring Break. To attempt to gloss over it simply because you don't think its a story makes me want to know why you don't think this is a story.
Why isn't rampant alcohol abuse by Americans documented more? (Nick Adenhart anyone?)
I think that our alcohol culture needs to be examined rather than just accepted, glossed over or swept under the rug. |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Dave,
Give me a break. It's hard to take your comments seriously.
Where are the people in your story? 42 families were effected and you don't have one face in your story. Not one real person. I know nothing about the people impacted by what you tell me is a disaster. If you are going to cop the "there are better stories to tell" attitude, then tell the story. Don't just give people photos that look like they were shot from your car as you were driving by.
This student did a hell of a job because when I look at his photos I get a very real sense of what it was like to be there. |
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Juliann Tallino, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Port Townsend/Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> ""Worthy", "better stories". this thread is a laugh a minute. It's the top of a web page for pete's sake, not the Pulitzer Prize.
I loved the peeps story by the way John, although I am more traditional, I think they should be the yellow chicks to be called peeps. :) |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 4:28 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> I'm just proud that my son opted to go on a community service project in San Franciso. He spent his week working in a soup kitchen and a food bank in one of the intercity neighborhoods.
Sure wish I could have gone along to document that tradition.
yes, they (40 students) got in a little site-seeing too and even made it to the beach (in the rain).
Go UE!
Alan
http://www.alanlook.com
http://chimperscage.blogspot.com |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 4:29 PM on 04.15.09 |
->> Brian Dowling,
So it's OK for you to look at and shoot girls in bikinis; but since I'm 49 yrs old, they are off limits? |
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