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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
A question for our photoj student members.....
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 7:45 AM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> I'm curious to know with the continued "downsizing" of newspapers and the elimination of staff positions almost everywhere what students are being advised to do by their respective schools. Having lost about six positions (including image techs) over the last year or so and with more to come (announced yesterday), we were discussing this at lunch and wondering just where are all the graduates of programs are going to find work. This isn't a gloom and doom comment and I'm not asking to get flamed, I'm just curious what the game plans might be for those of you in the PJ pipeline. Feel free to respond off list via email if you like. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:03 AM on 02.19.09 |
->> Good question Chuck, and not just directed to photoj students. I'm wondering how journalism school Deans are telling the truth to ALL their students?
Perhaps the next generation of wedding photographers will be the best trained ever?
Perhaps they'll all move to NYC for a career in advertising instead?
Perhaps they are all duel majors, with their other skill base in accounting, hoping to get a job with Bernie Madoff?
If I were a parent of a photojournalism student, I'd be questioning where my money was going. |
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Matthew Cavanah, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | US | Posted: 8:21 AM on 02.19.09 |
->> Well here at Missouri, where the majority of students are journalism majors, and we just had a record enrollment thanks the the football team spending a week at number one last year, (and they don't work with us enough about run on sentences), I think that we're all pretty aware of the situation but we're still encouraged to put ourselves out there as much as we can.
That's not to say that out teachers are telling us we can all make it or anything, just that we won't make it at all if we don't even try.
Personally, I haven't really settled on a backup plan just yet. Maybe I'll try my hand at freelancing, wedding or commercial work certainly isn't out of the question since I already work at a pseudo magazine for the University's Student Recreation Complex. Heck, I've even considered applying to a fire fighting academy or possibly even doing photography for the military.
I certainly can't speak for journalism students across the board, but I do believe that if you love what you do, you find a way to do it no matter what the situation is. |
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Jeyhoun Allebaugh, Photographer, Assistant
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Brooklyn | NY | | Posted: 12:06 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Chuck,
I decided to move to NYC in August and began doing Gameday assisting for the NBA and Studio assisting in addition to picking up some wedding work.
I've continued to work on my own projects because it is what I love and I figure hopefully I'll be able to find ways to get paid for it eventually somewhere.
I really think assisting can be the answer, but it is easy for many to fall into a career of assisting and NOT shooting, especially with the current climate. |
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Dominick Reuter, Photographer, Assistant
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Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> As a recent graduate of the PJ pipeline, I have a few reactions.
The game plan for me and the people I know is to figure it out ways to weather this so-called media storm (to borrow a phrase), and abide in the belief that there always has been and always will be a demand for good storytelling words and pictures.
As far as whether our Deans told us the truth, they made no bones about just how brutal and competitive it is out there, but always reminded us of that first point.
On whether we will be well-trained wedding and advertising photogs, that depends on what the priorities of each person's educations are. Are we trying to become a technically proficient image makers and business people, or are we in the search for ideas?
Had I not received an Education with my journalism degree, I'd want my money back, but I knew going into this that photography and journalism were the only things that would keep my attention long enough to earn an undergraduate degree, no matter which direction my life - or the economy - took upon graduation. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:30 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Ok, let me ask a follow-up question along the same lines. I was not a photography or journalism student. One of the things I liked best about the program/school I did attend was they were very much geared around preparing you for an actual JOB - they published their statistics about how many people from the program had a job right out of college as well as other relevant statistics. And they had a very active program for interviews and a lot of partnerships with corporations. So an active part of the program was partnering with employers, adapting the curriculum as years went by to make it relavant. It amazed me how many friends I had at other schools/programs where no effort was made in this regard. I.E. you were taught a field with really no effort made at mapping students to actual careers. So, Chuck's question made me curious - for those graduating or recently graduated: are the journalism and PJ programs actually adapting the programs and preparing you for actual jobs or just teaching you the principles of journalism / pj with no actual plan for directly linking what they are teaching you into a job that will pay your bills? Education for education's sake is a wonderful thing. And, for the independently wealthy, I suppose going to school just to learn a subject you're interested in would be cool. But most people go to college / post-HS training in order to get a job. So, are these programs actually getting you jobs or is it education for education's sake right now?
Note - this is NOT a knock on someone going to journalism or PJ school. It's a POTENTIAL knock on educational instituions which, IMO, seem to do a poor job in MANY fields preparing a student to actually have gainful employment. |
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Kevin Clifford, Photographer
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Reno | NV | United States | Posted: 2:18 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> As a recent graduate I was really surprised on how hard it was for the journalism school to adapt to the changing markets-Print, Advertising, PR, etc (There was no photoj program). Most teachers seemed to be denying/resisting that the print markets were imploding and were still teaching the same material that has been taught for the last 10 years or so. However several teachers made students do everything from writing to multimedia saying that's their best chance of survival.
The number one improvement that I thought was needed as I was going through the school was that there was a bunch of tenured people teaching the same things they always have, which worked up until now. Why didn't they bring in some more younger professional teacher to help reform and adapt the school for the future. Instead, they started pushing a bunch of print students to switch to broadcasting and advertising which just creates new problems.
I guess everyone is just hoping things will turn back the way it once was-public respect for journalists(mostly) and jobs for almost every graduate of the program. |
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Dann Wunderlich, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | US | Posted: 2:43 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> I am a freshman PhotoJ and Business at Mizzou. I am in my first class in the sequence (I got early enrollment which allows freshman to jump right into the program) So far our professor David Rees has made it clear that it is not an easy field to get into, you need to really work to set yourself apart.
He has really been pushing capturing a full story and getting that 'moment'
Also they are including multimedia like audio gathering and video as part of the coursework.
So all I can do is try to soak up as much as I can and apply it to the changing market.
Prof. Rees said something in the first class that really struck me. "You don't need to go to extraordinary situation to make a good image... Make an extraordinary photograph out of an ordinary situation.
I guess we will see where the next 3 1/2 years takes me! |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 2:57 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Dann,
Sounds like he's a good prof. Here's a question for you to ask your prof or department head:
"Does the college have any statistics or informattion on what jobs the graduating students from the last 5 years went into?" (the important part of this question is 'statistics' - the numbers are the telling part). If they know, great! If they don't know what jobs people in that market with their curriculum's education are getting, how can they say they're preparing you for a career in that area? So, the idea isn't to see if one prof understands things have changed the idea is find out whether the institution has any type of process in place to identify the jobs that exist and are adjusting their curriculum to give you a chance to compete for those jobs. |
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Tommy Penick, Student/Intern
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Boone | NC | United States | Posted: 10:57 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> On the student paper I work on, out of 50+ staffers I can't think of a single one that plans on working at a newspaper. Most want to work for a magazine or other type of print publication.
I am a Technical Photography major and to be honest...they just kinda teach us the photography part of it. I have seen no emphasis on business techniques and it does not look like the curriculum is tailored to doing so. We actually still have a good bit of film based classes. There is one intro course that pushes multimedia but that's pretty much it.
I personally am double majoring in Advertising because not only does it interest me, it's something that will hopefully work well with photography, either shooting for advertising firms or working in one. |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 11:42 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> ->> Perhaps they'll all move to NYC for a career in advertising instead?
This is basically what 90% of the Communications/Journalism department at my alma mater was about...
The other 10% were true honest-to-goodness Journalists in every sense of the word. Most of them managed to get jobs at various papers here and there (all as writers, I was the ONLY photographer of the bunch), 2 of my good friends have already been laid off...
I chose the non-traditional PJ route. I worked for that schools SID for 3 years, then when the SID left for another job...he took me with him (in so many words).
I guess half of it is luck, the other half persistence. Hang in there! |
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Darren Milosevich, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | United States | Posted: 12:23 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> Well I guess I'll jump on the Mizzou bandwagon and throw my 2 cents in here too....
Overall, the professors at Missouri are doing a pretty good job of letting us know that if we are going to survive in this Titanic-like job market, we MUST adapt and evolve with the changing technology and culture of media. They are always encouraging us to experiment with audio, video, soundslides, flash, as well as things they believe have the potential to take the industry in a new direction, such as Twitter. Each of the photo classes at Mizzou has a final term project, and we are often required to use some form of multimedia for the project, if not throughout the semester.
We are also being encouraged to bridge out of journalism into other fields of study. Many people are double majoring, myself included. They're also telling us that as a journalist in this ever-dwindling planet, we MUST learn a foreign language if we want to stand out at all to employers.
The only thing I see lacking in the J School right now is a "Business 101 For Journalists" or a "How To Freelance Without Living On The Streets" kind of class that teaches us how to market our photojournalism skills by ourselves. We have a class called Electronic Photojournalism which is all about building your own website, coding in Dreamweaver, Flash and HTML, and using more multimedia like Soundslides...but other than that, we have to take actual business and finance classes if we want to learn how to run our own businesses.
As for myself, well I'm afraid I've become a casualty of the times. I've decided I will not be pursuing a career in photojournalism for a variety of reasons, but one of the major ones being the lack of jobs. I just don't see the point of spending $80,000+ to learn a profession that I won't be able to find a job in to pay off my loans.
This article pretty much sums up how I feel:
http://www.nyunews.com/features/life_of_alvin/tell_me_i_won_t_have_a_job-1....
Good luck to all you students and professionals out there who are gutsy enough to stick it out in this underappreciated profession. |
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Matthew Cavanah, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | US | Posted: 9:05 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> John,
It's a little early in the day for me to recall off the top of my head, but if you google something like Missouri Alums in the media, or something to that effect, you'll find that there is a sizable number of Missouri Journalism grads who have made their marks in the national markets.
I've never quite heard anyone say it, but when you sit in the classes here at Mizzou, it's hard not to get the impression that their idea is that if they train us to be competitors in the national market, the smaller jobs will be a drop in the hat for us. Again, I have never heard any professor come out and say it, but it's my impression and belief that they want nothing more than to see us go to the top and they'll do whatever it takes to give us the ability to get there. |
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Joshua Sy, Student/Intern
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 8:56 PM on 02.20.09 |
->> Honestly, in this market I don't expect to make most of my living off photography anymore. USC doesn't have a photojournalism program, so I've remained a business student throughout my photographic career. My plan is to get a traditional job as a solid financial foundation, then work out how to get into the photo business from there.
I read an article on this site a couple of months ago that compared the photojournalist's job hunt with acting - it takes a long, long while to break into the business. I'm not brilliant enough to bypass that lengthy wait, so my plan is to, as the actors say, get a day job.
That said, most other job markets are looking much shabbier than they used to. Not the crash-and-burn of the PJ market, but I don't expect that I'm going to make a killing just coming out of school doing something like finance or accounting anymore. I don't think I mind that - I'd rather do what I like than do something for money and get into a midlife crisis down the line. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:09 AM on 02.21.09 |
->> Joshua,
You are probably the only one who will eat on a regular basis.
I can't ignore this thread. I'm the king of this advice on SS.com: It's my mantra: TAKE BUSINESS COURSES.
You can major or minor in business, but without it your learning curve in the real world is going to be UGLY. What scares me is Tommy Pennick's comment that most of his fellow students will go into magazine or some other form of print.
Are they nuts??
What the business courses do is give you the possibility of controlling one's future if that is at all possible.
Otherwise, you're probably going to end up trapped. |
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Daryl Peveto, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ventura | CA | US | Posted: 2:33 AM on 02.22.09 |
->> I just graduated into this market and I am struggling like I am sure most are. I feel lucky that when I was in school - Brooks Institute - I had many business classes - seven, I think - that all related to the business of photography. This helped me immensely in understanding how to plan and grow a business, which is what I am. I made the trek to NYC last fall and have a few assignments each month from that. It is pretty lean, but I have been trying to diversify to fill the gaps - with corporate gigs, some video, and basically anything that will help pay the bills. I always knew it would be difficult. My instructors were very clear about this. Now it is even more so. The loss of newspaper staff positions is like losing your safety net. It definitely limits the options.
The visual journalism program at Brooks is continuing to evolve to try to meet the ever changing demands of the marketplace. I had to adapt it somewhat - by creating independent study courses - to meet my needs. But I am very happy with the hard work and insights of my instructors in making the program relevant. I also think it is important to know where you want to end up and understand the realities of that decision. Then you need to do everything you can while in school to reach that goal. And business classes are a must. Probably the most important classes during your education. This career path is all about being proactive, and that should begin while you are in school.
I do believe that if we can make through these lean times, then when things get better it will only get easier. I didn't get into this to get rich financially. But I do feel enriched with the work itself and the people I get to meet. I get my clothes at Target and don't eat out much, but I love what I do. And that is what I care most about. I do wish I were making a little more so that I could spend more time on my personal project, but such is life. I guess I will just have to work that much harder. |
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Tommy Penick, Student/Intern
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Boone | NC | United States | Posted: 9:13 AM on 02.22.09 |
->> Michael,
Just out of curiosity, what makes the people wanting to go to magazines and other print nuts? |
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Scott Morgan, Photographer
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Rockford | IL | United States | Posted: 1:54 PM on 02.22.09 |
->> Tommy, when a gossip site has an entire section to the "Great Magazine Die-Off" - I don't think the future is especially bright for them.
http://gawker.com/tag/great-magazine-die_off/ |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 02.22.09 |
->> I've been out of PJ school for about 4 years. With a little persistence and divine intervention I landed a position at the paper in my hometown 6 months after leaving Brooks. The timing was perfect 'cause my hefty student loan payments were coming due. Even back then the rumblings and rumors of the decline of printed news was talked about. But the truth is, with school, that insulated world of classes and assignments and like-minded friends and parties, this current reality seemed foreign and inapplicable to myself, then as a student. A friend of mine from the same class year is now a staffer at the Rocky Mountain News and our conversations always drift to the state of print journalism and pj schools. "Get out while you can!" we often joke.
I talked to one of our interns and asked her how she feels about this business. "You're in all the same meetings I'm in, with the furlough days, assignment coverage cutbacks and looming lay-offs..., do you still want to do it?"
"If anything... I think I want it even more." She replied.
I admire her faith, cause I lose a little everyday. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern
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Bowling Green | KY | United States | Posted: 6:38 PM on 02.22.09 |
| ->> At Western Kentucky there's been a big push towards multimedia, and especially utilizing video in our reportage. Alot of students are also realizing the importance of our newswriting classes on the print side, seeing as how we will probably be called upon to write stories along with gathering stills, audio, and video. As David touched on, faith is a big reason I'm still pursuing a career in photojournalism. Faith, and hard work. |
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Bastian Ehl, Photographer
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Magdeburg | _ | Germany | Posted: 8:59 AM on 02.23.09 |
->> Having studied Journalism in Germany (it's over there, in Europe ;-) ) I might add some information. The print media crisis already struck us over here a couple of years ago.
Still deans telling their students, that the media biz is still a good possible employer and making a living from editorial work (wether text or photos) is still easily possible. A straight in the face lie.
My former university just opened up a new photojournalism course. Working for the press office as a freelancer, I urged the dean to refocus from photojournalism on corporate or corporate editorial photography. Just to ensure his students can make a living after graduating. He didn't care and tries to make his students believe, that they can easily make a living with press photography. The course's partner is the local newspaper - they pay as low as 9 EUR per freelance photo. Go figure...
I think deans are lying to their students, to keep their amount of students high. Which means more money for research and projects. There nearly no control on how sucessful courses actually are and no change in schedule if graduates are getting no jobs. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 02.23.09 |
| ->> After 20 posts and a large volume of email (obviously from students who didn't want their names out there) I'm seeing a distinct turn in some feelings from just a year ago. Bastian (above responder) was one of the only public responders to say what ALL but one of the emails I received stated. What I'm hearing is that many students feel they have been mislead by their schools and haven't been dealt with honestly about their future as a photojournalist. The second point many have made is that some curriculum's are resistant to the changing atmosphere and still teach the same things they were teaching four years ago. An added question to the mix: How many students are in paid internships? I heard last night that is also drying up...so even if the internship is a requirement in the course, the student is basically required to work for free if need be. This in itself is pretty reprehensible since in fact it goes against everything we discuss here about getting paid for your work. Please keep the conversation going. And as I said in the beginning feel free to email me if you don't wanna vent on the board. |
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Afton Almaraz, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Tin Hau | . | Hong Kong | Posted: 1:01 PM on 02.23.09 |
->> I'm currently interning with Time Asia, and it is a paid internship. I've been fortunate that there is a stipend; otherwise, I most likely would not have been able to do it.
I would like to highlight what Daryl Peveto said in his above statement in the last paragraph. I've also sacrificed the way I live to continue doing what I am doing now. I can honestly say that this industry is not for the thin-skinned, nor for those that refuse to adapt to the changes. I have to remind myself that daily, and push myself each day to perform at my best. I decided to pursue a career in this industry knowing that it would be difficult. It's something I love to do, and will continue to do despite the many challenges that lie ahead. |
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Darren Milosevich, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | United States | Posted: 2:25 PM on 02.23.09 |
->> Haha I'm glad you brought up the internship issue, Chuck.
A good friend of mine applied for 40+ paid newspaper internships before Christmas. She has received far more letters stating that their programs were cut due to lack of money, than she has actual rejections.
Paid internships are definitely drying up, and this is really going to hurt us students. Even some non-paying internships at smaller papers are becoming extinct. This happened to me last summer. I was accepted to a non-paying, for-credit internship, only to receive a call two weeks later saying they had to cut their program because of "the economy"......I don't exactly understand how a non-paying internship is affected by that, but ok.
So now the question is, how do aspiring photographers get the necessary experience that can only come from interning at a daily newspaper, without actually interning at a paper? |
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Jeyhoun Allebaugh, Photographer, Assistant
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Brooklyn | NY | | Posted: 5:02 PM on 02.23.09 |
->> I know with me, my thoughts on this subject have been "If I work hard enough at what I love, the money will take care of its self."
I realize this is unbelievable naive and idealisitic (and old guys are groaning as I type), but it is working out so far and making me happy. Both my internships actually cost me money for tuition in order to receive school credit, but were wonderful opportunities (I'll also add one did result in a job). I think this viewpoint may be another reason so many are still blindly heading into the fray.
Also, Daryl, great post. Can you reccommend specific things I can educate myself on to catch up on missed business classes? |
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Stephen Maturen, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Minneapolis | MN | United States | Posted: 6:16 PM on 02.23.09 |
->> I'll throw down what I already emailed to Chuck:
I'm on a break from the U of MN because they don't have a
photo or photojournalism major and it seems to be the only thing
I can focus on these days.
I can work at my school paper till the end of May...
My lease ends in August...
I'm 21....
The world seems pretty open and totally closed at the same
time.
All I want is some $400 a week internship pretty much anywhere
(preferably someplace totally different from Minneapolis). But I'm
not really sure where to start, or how to talk to editors.
Backup plan:I've got a friend who works at a cupcake bakery in
D.C..... I think I could do that for awhile.
Backup plan 2.0: Go Alexander Supertramp on the world... minus
the dying in a bus in AK. |
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Daryl Peveto, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ventura | CA | US | Posted: 1:55 AM on 02.24.09 |
->> Jeyhoun, thank you. I don't have many answers because I am just starting out myself. I would recommend getting the books 'Best Business Practices for Photographers' by John Harrington and 'Business and Legal Forms for Photographers' by Tad Crawford. The first is great for organizing your business and answering questions, the second explains the legalese of a wide variety of contracts and releases so that you can customize them for your needs. Make sure you get it with the CD! Also, the ASMP has a lot of great info and it is worth it to join for the access to their archives. Even if you decide not to join, check out the Tools section - http://www.asmp.org/commerce/estimator.php - to look at other books, software and websites. These things continue to help me almost daily.
I am sure there are others on this thread that have far more insights to offer for those of us humbly beginning our careers. If anyone else would care to add... |
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Zach Honig, Photo Editor, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:52 PM on 02.25.09 |
->> I guess I'll chime in here as well as a recent Mizzou grad. I was in the photo-j program with Matt Cavanah... Dann and Darren, it's nice to meet you. I don't want to burn any bridges, but I feel that I should be completely honest about how I feel the program prepares students for a future in photojournalism. It's because of this online community that I made the decision to ease my way out of photography, and focus more on my writing.
I didn't leave the photo sequence, since it really wasn't an option at that point, but I did decide to take journalism electives that would help improve my reporting rather than those that would make me a better photographer. In general, I feel that the Missouri School of Journalism does a fair job of making it clear that this is a tough business, and that if we don't think we can make it, we should consider getting out. I can't say the same for the photo sequence, which seems to leave many students with the delusion that they'll be able to get a job, albeit a low paying one, after they earn their degree. Many of the photo students don't actively seek internships until the summer before their senior year, and even then there are plenty that don't. Also, other journalism sequences at Missouri have the benefit of adding fellows to their faculty for a period of time--individuals who are working journalists, and know what it's really like out there--so students that don't have a chance to find an internship have real world contacts with real world experience. The photo program doesn't have fellows; at least they didn't when I graduated last May, so there isn't really anyone on the faculty that's worked in photojournalism in the last few years.
My most recent contribution to the SportsShooter Newsletter (I'm not saying it's my last) was about my decision to find a job outside of photography. I've been happily employed at PC Magazine (now PCMag.com) since October, and I feel that I have plenty of job security there. If I had managed to land a job as a newspaper shooter (I wasn't good enough), then I would have started out in a small town, making less than half of what I do writing, and would quite possibly be out of a job by now. Instead, I'm living in NYC, making enough to get by, and not worried about losing my job. I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back--not at all. Rather, I want to reach out to those students who still have enough time to consider another path (Dann, I'm definitely talking to you). Heck, I'm even about to move in with a full time photog next week (Robert Caplin), so I may end up at very least shooting for myself again once in a while. If photojournalism is what you were born to do, then who am I to tell you not to follow your dream, but if you're getting into this thinking you're going to have a moderately easy time finding work, let alone finding work that pays well, then let this be your fiftieth wake up call.
Sorry for getting carried away with this post... if you haven't seen my piece in the Newsletter, you can find it here: http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2085
Students: Please feel free to email me with any questions... the last thing I want is to see more unemployed photographers that have nothing else to fall back on. |
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Ron Bernardo, Photographer
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Hamilton | ON | Canada | Posted: 6:51 AM on 02.26.09 |
| ->> It is also not good up here in Canada. |
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Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
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Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 7:12 AM on 02.26.09 |
| ->> Hey Zach... I miss my print version of PCMag. I was sorry to see it go only Digital. I haven't read it since. I love John Dvorak's columns. Tell him i said hello. |
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Lane Christiansen, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Jasper | IN | USA | Posted: 6:31 PM on 03.01.09 |
| ->> At Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, there is a multimedia push and a stress that all photographers should build upon their entrepreneur skills. I for one am starting to really stress getting any sort of wedding photojournalism advertising out there. I love shooting weddings but am saddened that the chance of a staff position at a newspaper is slim to none. I graduate in May and am putting my portfolio out there and getting to know everyone I can in the journalism world. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 03.01.09 |
->> I graduated RIT 25 years ago and I honestly don't think the market is too much different for jobs at newspapers than it was then.
For the average or less than average shooter, as I was definitely back then, it depends on how far will you move for a job. How hungry and desperate are you for work. Would you work at a tiny paper in Cowtown, USA?
I know the business is pitiful these days, with papers downsizing and folding, but are there really less jobs today? I am not so sure.
When I graduated, I wanted to work in my home state of NJ but I couldn't find anything full time. I then went down my list and contacted EVERY paper in ALL the states I wanted to work in-pretty much all up and down the eastern seaboard. Not a bite. I had no desire to live in certain states, but I wanted work, and they were they only ones who offered me work. All but one of the papers were less than desireable and I chose the one that had the best chief photographer.My interview was shooting a full 8 hour shift for the paper. When I got the job, I asked the photo chief why he hired me, why he took a chance. He said "I knew you were hungry. I knew you wanted a job. I knew you were eager to learn and work hard here-you came 220 miles away from your home for an interview that lasted all day and you were willing to move to a small town where you knew no one"
I would have moved ANYWHERE, just to work. And I did just that-I moved to 3 different states where I didn't know a single person for my first 3 staff jobs. I am not sure if many young people today would do that. Actually, come to think of it, I am not so sure many of my classmates would have done that in 1984. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 11:03 PM on 03.01.09 |
->> Debra, you wrote:
"I graduated RIT 25 years ago and I honestly don't think the market is too much different for jobs at newspapers than it was then."
Do the math, are there now more papers or fewer papers than a quarter century ago?
Are there now more or fewer PJ or journo with a photo interest graduates than a quarter century ago?
When I graduated in 1976 jobs were hard to come by as the Watergate events created a glut of journalism students. But in the years since I have never seen a time that there weren't many more applicants than available openings at any daily paper.
In the last few years the closing of many papers has not only reduced the number of papers to which one could apply for work, but also has put many, many willing and desirous to work photographers into the pool of those actively looking for work, any work.
Not only are there now fewer jobs than a quarter century ago but there are just as many college graduates and now highly seasoned professionals in the job market.
If I were in college, or just out of college, I would immerse myself in a quality videography and or new media (internet directed) course of study. I would not give up on a career in photojournalism, but I would face the facts.
--Steve |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:32 PM on 03.01.09 |
->> Steve,
I agree with you-if I were in college I too would immerse myself in video, or multi media. Without it, you're at a disadvantage.
Are there more or less papers than a quarter century ago? Most likely less, but this field has never been easy for most of us. It has always been over saturated. With that said, EVERY job I ever applied for or got-there were hundreds to thousands who wanted it. Even when there were not openings at the papers I worked at, we would get people calling or writing every week wanting ot work there. And trust me, these were not award winning wonderful photo papers. One was decent, the others were pitiful, to be honest. (example-the Space Shuttle Challenger explodes, killing all 7 aboard, including school teacher Christa McAuliffe and the paper I was on staff for didn't think it was a big enough story and buried it on page 13. On the front page-a cow grazing in the field with the sun beating down on him. Photos like this were front page at least once a week.)
Many of the people I graduated college with never went on to work inthe field-they opted out before. Some decided they wanted to make more money than they would be as a staffer anywhere, and many quit trying after they found it too hard to find work. I had no option. Photography was my blood, my drug, my breath. Rejection letters lined my room-hundreds of them, but I didn't stop.
My point here, basically, is yes-there are few jobs. Yes, it is an uncertain market. Yes-the future of photography looks bleak. However, at this time 25 years ago I was told I would never get a full time job, that I stunk, find a new career, I'm never going to make it. Did I believe in myself? No, not really, but as I said-this was all I could do. If you want this, REALLY want this, you'll find a way to make it work. You will do what it takes, learn what you need to to make yourself more desireable, and go anywhere for that job. I have received many emails from members and non members that have THAT drive and desire and they made it work too. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:51 AM on 03.02.09 |
| ->> ....and now back to our regularly scheduled programming, where newspapers are closing, lay-offs have become a weekly feature of our lives, oh and then there's that pesky little fact that NO ONE is hiring....sorry...I'm still looking for replies to the question about paid internships. Do they exist? Anyone get one for the summer? If you don't want to speak on the public forum just email me...I'm not going to share anyone's personal emails but I'm gathering a thread for something I'm working on. Thanks. |
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Jenny Cecil, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Athens | OH | USA | Posted: 2:34 PM on 03.02.09 |
->> Chuck, I am in my first year of graduate studies in the Visual Communication program at Ohio University. I have a paid internship for the summer along with a handful of OU classmates. I sent over 30 portfolio applications to newspapers, wire services and even magazines. It's true, many of the replies I got were form letters telling me their program had been cut due to budget. I worked my tail off to get this internship and am really excited about. I'm learning audio, video and the art of online storytelling more everyday.
I'm aware that journalism as we know it is... evolving. I came back to school to evolve with it. In 20 years, I hope to look back and be able to say "I survived the worst of times in my profession and I never gave up." Because I believe the protection a free press provides is more valuable than anything else. (Cue Dido lyrics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSLBAxsOdRI ) |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:12 PM on 03.02.09 |
->> "Does the college have any statistics or informattion on what jobs the graduating students from the last 5 years went into?"... If they don't know what jobs people in that market ...how can they say they're preparing you for a career in that area?"
John when it comes to any form of art there isnt a winning formula. Even before things deteriorated to this level it was a well-known fact that a very small % of graduated photo students would actually land a job shooting. Most of them became photo editors/assistant, editors, photo tech, working at labs or camera stores, teaching or doing something else. I know a kid, and many like him, that recently went to Rochester and now he is selling shoes. FActs are that few are working photographers.
Is not different from folks studying drama or music at Julliard. Our field cant be compared to a law or business school or a medical program.
How can you tell a Seattle boy that one-day he will be known as Jimy Hendrix and that 4 kids from Liverpool will make history? Or that a college kid that was into football will be known as John Wayne?
For most boys/girls when it comes to any form of school preparation, including arts, then education is always welcome for it will help you with your character and make you learn and growth as a human being and guide you. Yet when is solely any creative art form we are at the mercy of our gifted talent, fortune, marketing, personality & timing. Those are things that 1,000 yrs of education will NEVER TEACH YOU or GARANTY YOU.
More 2 Come
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:42 AM on 03.05.09 |
->> This was just sent to me....pretty interesting take on the subject.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTXisNgklgo |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 03.05.09 |
->> Manuelo,
I understand what you are saying. And, as long as said artists are otherwise being productive members of society (like the person you referenced selling shoes) I would never tell someone not to follow their dream. BUT, I still believe most people seek out secondary education with the hopes that education provides them employment opportunities. And, the reality is the later you go in life the more difficult it can be to re-tool. MOst notably parents aren't going to let you live at home till you're 30. So, the statistics I'm talking about should absolutely be available. My guess is the programs in question would never want to publish them because the job opportunities aren't there. And, given that information a certain percentage of students or parents paying for students would no longer enroll in those programs. No different than other programs though - a friend in college was a history major. His department didn't provide those statistics either. I just believe in making informed, fact based decisions where my livelihood is at stake. To me there's a huge difference between a school saying "its tough out there" and "15% of our graduating class the last 3 years had jobs upon graduation" and "10% had jobs making $20,000 or more". Then people can make an informed decision if the risk is worth it to them. I know for a fact 2 friends who would never have gone through the coursework they did if they had been armed with the job stats for their field of choice - neither of which 16 years later has a job in their field of choice - they were forced to take other jobs and jobs not at a high level because their highly priced education $$$ were wasted on degrees that didn't get them a job and they had no money left to go back and get a degree that WOULD land them a job. In the end everyone makes their own decision. You just have a better chance of making a GOOD decision for yourself when you have more information. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:34 PM on 03.05.09 |
| ->> Well said john. That was kind of the point of the whole thread. It saddens me that there is so much disinformation out there for students trying to break into the field. The fact of the matter is there are no jobs out there now. (and I said this two years ago and got hammered for it so I understand if I make some people angry again) In fact they are disappearing at a high rate of speed. One person emailed me and said they had sent out over 100 applications for internships and found plenty, of FREE ones. Yup, work the whole summer but no pay. Trust me, with the budget and staff cuts, newspapers are going to be more than happy to take all the "free" they can. So, you take the free internship. Who will pay for your food, lodging and life for that six weeks? At our paper we have lost four or five positions in the last two years...have we made any new hires? No. Are we? No. In fact we are all holding our breath because they are announcing new budget/staff cuts in the next couple of weeks and in all probability we will lose at least one more position, and that's a "best case" scenario. Every paper in our state is LOSING photographers, not getting new positions. The newspaper business is in total meltdown phase. The Rocky closing last week should be a serious wake up call. Those people had won Pulitzer's, and now they are unemployed. So IF I was a DOP (remember I am NOT a DOP I am a staff photojournalist) and I was looking for a photographer, who would I hire? This is where the dynamics have changed. I'm not even talking about the dark ages when I started 35 years ago, not even 25 years ago, let's say 10 years....I'm looking for a shooter and if I want someone really good with experience I might have to headhunt, offer a staffer from another paper more money or hope they were unhappy with their conditions and want to jump ship. OR...I could find the best and the brightest coming out of the J-School's and hire them. Because yes, maybe their enthusiasm would overcome their inexperience. That's the way it worked. Okay jump to the present...IF I had a position to offer, which I haven't in over two years, my job pool candidates now include former staff photographers from every sized paper imaginable. Some with years of experience. Talented AWARD winning shooters, who already have all the skills, including video, sound and the whole multimedia bundle. That's a no brainer. I would hire someone who could jump in right away and not have to be trained to how a real daily paper works. I know this comment will ruffle some feathers out there because it sounds all gloom and doom. But the company I work for is reducing the staffs of the papers in the chain between 12 and 20 percent. That means almost probably every paper in the chain will lose one photojournalist. There are over 40 papers in the chain. That means another 40 unemployed shooters. These are the facts. Everybody has dreams, I still have dreams myself, but I just want the students to go out there with their eyes open. The willingness to work hard and do anything to reach your "dream" could turn into a nightmare if you aren't careful. So maybe it might be time to think about a new dream. Just saying. NOTE: This is what happens when you're stuck at home sick. You sit in front of your computer for WAY too long. PeaceOut. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 3:15 PM on 03.05.09 |
| ->> I am employed by a privately owned paper, which in some ways was insulated from the cuts Chuck has mentioned, but now..., the reality is the same and there is no way around it. Although this can be categorized as "doom and gloom," as it is in Durham so it is in San Diego, this is REALLY happening, Chuck is not exaggerating. |
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Dylan Isbell, Photographer
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Ventura | Ca | USA | Posted: 8:13 PM on 03.08.09 |
->> I would suggest those who are just starting vj/pj school, those who are in school or those fresh out of school to embrace video and yes this tired old buzz word 'multimedia'. I know some are bitter with that word, multimedia, because some said it would "save" newspapers and some multimedia is, for lack of a better term "weak"... not that much more engaging. But embracing such avenues can only help you survive this current economy and or this current newspaper transformation. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read and heard that newspapers, well use to, make 90% of their income from print/print ads and so on and maybe only 10% from the web. Well if you make 90% from print your only spending 10% of your time focused on the web and the WEB is where everybody is going these days. So, video and multimedia jobs will most likely pop up more often than not and those who know how to edit, use a video camera and collect good audio will survive the tough/down times... not a guarantee but a two trick pony is more valuable these days and its never too late to learn.
On a personal note, I went to Brooks Institute of Photography and was spit out into one of the worst economies in decades and one of if not the worst time for newspapers ever. Luckily I embraced video and multimedia and with some luck and a person willing to take a chance on me, I landed a freelance gig making videos for the Ventura County Star. And just about two days ago I received a Multimedia Internship with Newsweek. I believe if I had solely relied on photography I would be in a whole other place right now. This isn't to say that video and multimedia is the only way to go but when everybody including third world countries will soon have a computer and the internet I assume more people will know what good video/multimedia is and will have a desire to see more of it and in turn more jobs will open up.*
* I obviously don't have a crystal ball so I am not trying to be definitive in my comments but when trends ramp up jobs usually follow. I also want to ad that I still feel that there is a strong need for photography and I still very very much love photography but be careful of tunnel vision, I know how easy it can be staring through a viewfinder 24/7.
I wish those out there all the best no matter what stage you are at in your career because "if you will it it is no dream" |
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Brian Dowling, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 10:27 PM on 03.08.09 |
->> I think it works both ways. Veterans with jobs needs to keep on their toes and see what photogs in school are doing. I'm in my 2nd year of photography and I feel my work is on par with at least 25% of Getty/AP staffers. I don't mean that in a disrespecting way, but I feel if given the chance I could hang mid-pack as a staffer.
With the internet today, its easy to track down who shoots what, where, and how. Last summer, I went to the bookstore and went through all the magazines I wanted to be in (SI, Runner's World, etc...) and researched who took the photos and what agency the photos came from. I shot my very first football game ever in September and with a bit of luck had my first image in SI at the end of November.
I guess to answer your question Chuck, since there isn't going to be a big influx of new jobs, us students will be coming after current jobs. So, everyone needs to educate themselves on the current trends and work their asses off. |
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Darren England, Photographer
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Brisbane | QLD | Australia | Posted: 10:33 AM on 03.09.09 |
| ->> You GEN Y kids, you crack me up....... |
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:15 PM on 03.09.09 |
->> Sounds like you've got it all figured out in your world, Brian... Way to go. Those current staffers better keep on their toes with tigers like you on the prowl. Idealism is a wonderful thing, is it not? I will say that you should think about setting your standards higher than "25%" and "mid-pack" if you want to keep the next Brian Dowling from taking YOUR staff job.
-J |
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Garrett Cortese, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Winter Park | FL | USA | Posted: 11:37 AM on 03.12.09 |
->> I don't have any answers to Chuck's original question because I graduated in 2004, but I think I might have some suggestions to current photo-J students or recent grads.
1. Take business classes. Maybe even consider a minor or double major, even if it means staying in school a little longer. Sure, you might not necessarily want to expand those student loans, but do you want to be in the "real world" right now with no jobs to be had and zero business sense? Chances are when you get out of school you're going to be doing some work under your own name/business, so you might as well learn how to do it right rather than learn from your own mistakes and live in your Mom's basement eating Top Ramen until you're 33 (or living in a van down by the river with a guy named Matt Foley). Plus, being in school a little longer gives you that much more time to have great access to all the things that come with college life in order to continue to build your portfolio.
2. Learn more about journalism than just photography. When I was at school at CU Boulder the journalism school didn't have a photo major (still doesn't) and at first I thought it was a huge disadvantage for me. I majored in News/Editorial because I knew that was the field I wanted to go into eventually, but I just focused on all the photography stuff I could (two photo-J classes and work for the student newspaper). In the end the lack of a photo major ended up being my biggest blessing, though. My major taught me how to write and edit, so rather than being a kid in the real world who could only shoot photographs, I could now write stories to go with them. If I didn't have this extra feather in my hat I wouldn't have the job I do now. So go find those feathers and put them in your own hats. The more services you can offer a potential employer, the more valuable you become as a potential employee. Maybe it's writing, maybe it's video, maybe it's graphic design/layout, maybe it's web design... Be more than just a photographer.
3. The term photojournalist doesn't automatically mean you have to work for a newspaper, but it does mean you've been trained to use your camera in a variety of different ways where you can produce quality photography no matter what the situation. I work for a wakeboarding magazine now, but my photography skills all grew from (still growing, I hope) my photojournalism education and training (classes, student paper, internships). Other photo markets are more insulated from the economic crisis than newspapers these days, and those might be places you'll need to look to for employment. Regardless, your training as a photojournalist should have you more prepared to adapt to those markets and eventually succeed. I've shot several weddings on the side to make some extra money, and did quite well at it because of my photojournalism experience. I have the job I do and shoot photos the way I do because of my photojournalism experience. Take your training and expand upon it. Maybe there are other fields you're interested in outside of newspaper photojournalism where your skills can still bring home a paycheck and keep you happy. Learn about those fields and start pursuing them.
4. Keep looking for the next step (or at least the path to it). For me when I was a student this had to do with education and networking. I was constantly looking for new ways to learn and grow as a photographer, as well as meet other photographers. While in school I was lucky enough to attend several of the original SportsShooter Luau workshops, as well as a Rich Clarkson Sports Photography workshop in Colorado Springs and the photography workshop at Churchill Downs. Each of these not only inspired me and taught me more than I could have imagined, but they also allowed me to meet and interact with many other talented photographers (students and instructors). Whether I need it or not, I've thought several times about applying for the SportsShooter Academy workshops just because I love being around that environment of learning, inspiration and growth. So don't rely on just your school education - look for other ways to grow and expand as a photographer.
5. It's not who you know OR what you know, it's where you're at. Think about this one for a second, it's a little more soup du jour than meat and potatoes main course advice. By "where you're at" I not only mean geographically where you're at, but I mean where you are with your education, your photography skills, your work ethic/drive, and even your balance in your own life. To continue to succeed in this world I believe you need to constantly ask yourself these questions and work to answer them. Are you willing to move somewhere for a job, even if it means leaving your comfort zone? Are you willing to learn more, break some old habits, deconstruct some of your photography so you can build it back up? Are things in balance for you? If there's one thing I've learned (and am continuously learning, because I'm no wise sage veteran of photography by any means), it's that balance can help keep things in perspective and keep a photographer happy (whether it's your religion, your family, your pursuit of other things outside photography, etc). Think about where you're at, where you want to go, and what it might take in today's "real world" to get there.
6. “There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.” -- Ansel Adams. In the end if you're going to succeed in photography you've got to take good pictures. Plain and simple. No if's, and's or but's. So while it's hard to not get caught up in the doom and gloom Chicken Little stuff ('cause it's real and it's happening), don't lose sight of the most basic and important reason of why we're all here in the first place.
If you've made it this far, I apologize for possibly wasting several minutes of your day, but hopefully there is something in this message than can help somebody somewhere in some little way. I had a little time on my hands so I figured I'd put some thoughts on the Internet.
My best wishes to all of us photographers out there; whether you're weathering the storm, getting turned upside down by it, or about to enter it.
-Garrett |
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Matt Dean, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Lake Worth | FL | USA | Posted: 7:39 PM on 03.12.09 |
->> Okay, just a thought experiment, and this somewhat hijacks the thread a bit (sorry) but I think it's relative because a lot of recent grads and students seem to be paying attention to this thread.
So, to the folks coming out of j-school, where is the innovation in starting your own publications, from the ground up, better suited for today's trends. If you were FORCED to start a publication right now, it the "worst of times", how would you do it?
I'm just throwin' it out there :-)
A lot of people seem to be looking for jobs and not creating them! |
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Sean Gates, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Hempstead & Cooperstown | NY | US | Posted: 10:34 PM on 12.27.09 |
| ->> Well it's funny for Walter Calahan to mention Bernie Madoff as he is my school's most infamous graduate. Here at Hofstra University in New York many of the journalism professors are staying true to their profession and practicing transparency. I am a print journalism major and I have heard nearly every one of my professors lecture about the "state of the profession". Many do not have good things to say but at least they are not sugar coating it for the students. However, a few of my professors do speak optimistically about the changes we are seeing in the field. I hope that with time both photography and journalism will adapt to the changes we are seeing and maybe this will lead to new jobs that will replace the previous the ones that have been lost. |
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Doug Strickland, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Danville | KY | USA | Posted: 11:27 AM on 12.30.09 |
->> Chuck,
I'm going to add my 2c here because I think I have a fairly unique perspective on the matter. Why? Because I'm not a PJ major. I'm not even at a school that offers photo courses. Or journalism. I'm an English major.
Some are probably wondering what in the world I'm doing, particularly with the state of the business right now, and honestly had I realized that this was what I wanted to do with my life a year earlier than I did I would be at WKU right now. Unfortunately I came in late in the game during my junior year and have been doing everything I can to catch up. After paying 3 years tuition to a very good school I decided I should finish my liberal arts education. I did have a summer internship last summer, and have applied for paid internships this summer after I graduate. At this point, it is unclear whether or not I should simply begin freelancing after that (or after graduation, should I not get an internship), consider graduate work, or simply return to school in another location to get either additional courses or a second degree.
I'm under no illusion about the state of the business. Things look bad all around, for the pros in jobs now and for the students vying for those same positions. The big difference for me against other PJ students is that their colleges are actively doing something (hopefully) to prepare them for it. Mine doesn't even know how to help me start. Everything I'm learning I'm doing on my own. I'm reading "Best Business Practices for Photographers" now, as well as "The Photographer's Market 2010," and others, trying to prepare myself not for the photography side (which I believe I am well prepared for and like another poster here, I think I could cover most events about on par with the middle of the AP/Reuters pack or better at this point) but for the business side. That's what it's going to be all about if I have to freelance for five years after I graduate. I'm an English major, so I can definitely write, and I plan to diversify myself as much as I possibly can. Weddings, portraits, commercial work, family photos, whatever I can do to keep myself afloat, I will, in order to keep doing what I've come to love. Does this mean accepting an $18,000/year staff job at a paper somewhere? No. Does this mean taking jobs that pay $125 and have me handing over full copyrights to my photos? Probably not. It just means that I have to be able to offer clients a larger range of skills, and be able to do more to make money than just take still photos. Diversifying skills is the only thing that is going to keep me afloat, the way I see it. I have a solid liberal arts education, and that will help. I have a good eye, and know what I am doing even without formal training, and I just have to hope that shows through in my portfolio enough to make me worth taking a chance on without that PJ degree. |
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Jack Megaw, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Pittsburgh | PA | America | Posted: 11:41 AM on 12.30.09 |
->> I'm a PJ major at Point Park University in Pittsburgh. We are being told how tough it is 'out there' - also about the layoffs. All of the journalism professors are former or even current journalists - and most of them tell it like it is. Seeing people coming out of college last year and the amount that didn't get jobs - that is astounding.
At the same time - photojournalism is my passion. I honestly cannot see myself ever being as passionate about something else as I am this. What it comes down to is just making myself that much better than the rest - and working 100 times harder than anyone else. If I cannot do that then I don't have the passion to work in this industry - but I'm pretty sure I do.
-Jack |
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