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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
So how DOES one get access then?
Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> I sincerely mean this as a legit question. I have gotten access to many events but never on a consistent basis. It's always filling in for someone or very event specific (one off type things). With all the talk here lately of WFF and spec vs commission, I think it does raise the question for those of us with less time in the business...how do we get ourselves in a legitimate position to a) have access on a consistent basis and b) have reputable outlets for our work product? Let's assume that image quality is not the issue since if I was producing weak images, all options are null.
Before the replies start, I do want to be clear that I am NOT in favor of WFF if for no other reason than I have a family and would much rather spend any free time I have with them rather than have all the "glory" (yes, that's j/k) of being able to shoot from the sidelines just to give my stuff away. What I am getting at is some of what's been asked but I think still needs an answer. If you need access to get the shots to sell in the first place, how do you get the access on a regular enough basis to establish the credibility required to shoot for reputable outlets so that you aren't in the position of being asked to WFF?
Thanks. Hopefully Jody and Deb chime in here as well. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:16 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Valid question. Access to large pro events for a freelancer is a challenge if you are not affiliated with a media organization that will sign-off on your credentials- the freelancers that I know basically are the go-to-person that have access to a variety of events because they have credentials submitted by the media organization they represent - from what I have learned it can take years to reach this "go-to-person" status. But that's not mentioned to discourage but to inform, clearly it's possible, yet very difficult. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> my posts WERE NOT advocating working for free or giving images away. In my earlier years, I would give prints to my friends of the (famous) people I shot but never would I give a magazine or newspaper prints for free (the pay was bad and close to being free, however).
My posts WERE about the rude attitudes by "some of the best in the business" and how they treat others.
I do not shoot sports anymore as I did when I was younger but shoot something that is probably just as hard to gain access to-concerts. I am fortunate that I have a major daily newspaper that I have been shooting for since moving to NYC in 1999 and that is how I get my access now. Before that, I shot for a few magazines and record companies..pretty much until Wireimage and Getty came along and took that all away.
How did I get the 4th largest daily newspaper in the USA to use me for concerts, especially when I lived at the NJ Shore for 12 years and couldn't get the paper there to be interested? I moved to NYC in March 1999. A week later I met with 3 publications just wanting to shoot-I didn't care what assignments they wanted to send me on. One praised me, and never called or return calls. One said, upon looking at my book, "don't call us because we won't call you-we never heard of you" and as I closed my book, I said to her "YOU WILL." The third, loved the diversity of my book but kept saying "you won't get rich shooting here." I kept saying I did not get into photography to get rich, I want to shoot, and I will shoot everyday. Several weeks later, the first call came in for a shoot. For what seemed like forever, I did "man on the street" photos, then pet of the week. Was this frustrating? Sure. I had 15 years full time shooting experience and wanted more "meaty" assignments, but I was brand new, so I understood I was starting from scratch. This was my "paid internship" 15 years into the business.
A big concert was coming up and I met the promoter along the way. She liked me and said to call if I ever needed anything. I wanted to shoot this concert-it was Jennifer Lopez,Ricky Martin, Enrique Inglesias and other hot performers back in 1999. I called the paper a week before to tell them I had a credential and to see if they wanted images. I was told "sorry kid, we have no request" and then click-he hung up. Several days before ths concert, I did the same thing and had the same outcome. Day of..same thing. I had an agency that represented my concert images and back then they were the best in the business-it was pre WI and Getty so I knew my images would get picked up. Day of the show, I am shooting J Lo and my pager goes off-the paper needs the images IMMEDIATELY. I missed Ricky Martin and Enrique to get to the paper to process the film.
The next day, my image of Jennifer Lopez appears on the front page of the paper and I have been shooting concerts for them ever since.
The following weeks, my images from this concert also appeared in several magazines, thanks to my agency.
IF I were able to gain access to shoot someone without an assignment, for free, would I go shoot? I can't honestly answer that anymore,mainly since I have photographed everyone who is still alive that I have wanted to shoot.
My husband is an airplane and helicopter pilot and we go up frequently to shoot for stock. We get assignments, but will go up on our own, but we also know what the needs are from magazines or stock agencies so we know what to shoot.
If shooting sports for stock for most people here is out of the question because you can't get access, try other routes.
I am not knowledgeable in the sports photography world but how many shooters make a living-and a good one-shooting only sports? There once was a time when people made decent money from concerts but that is no longer the case. So these old concert shooters do other things. I was once a full time newspaper photographer, then a state photographer,then a major University photographer and the money and hours were not conducive to "having a life." When I quit and went freelance 5 years ago, I had no clue what was going to happen with my career. Since I diversified my photography long ago, it only helped. I have corporate clients, public relation firms, the paper, aerial assignments and even some sports every now and then and I am thrilled, and grateful, to where my career has taken me. It has been so wonderful that I will be buying another apt in NYC and if any of you know NYC real estate, you could buy a farm in Ohio for what a "room" sells for here.
There is a rudeness here and in our profession that is just sickening. It is so sad when 33 people email me after one of my posts and they all said how scared they are to post on the boards because of how they have been treated. (I,too, have been treated so poorly over and over again but I am a fighter-growing up with 3 older brothers made me that way.) THAT was the point I wanted to make-I guess I should have started another thread.
DLR |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 2:01 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Thanks David. I agree that its not something that happens overnight. The problem is that when you try to get yourself on the inside enough to get creds, the issuing body seems to smell blood in the water which naturally leads to them offering creds only if you are willing to WFF. A great example happened this past winter shooting minor league hockey. I got asked to fill in for a group that was trying to become the team photogs for the Cleveland Monsters (who didn't really have a real team photographer at that point). I shot a game and got paid by the group I shot for. A week later I got a call from one of the players, the mascot, and some folks in marketing looking for free imgages. I declined that tempting offer and they asked to meet with me which I agreed to. At out meeting, they said I could come shoot anytime I wanted (sweet, seasons creds!). Oh yeah, if I gave them the images. Again, I declined and only heard back from them one other time to shoot a promo event for the team...again, for free, again, I declined. Have never heard back from them since. Point is, while I "helped" the sports photographer community by not doing th3e WFF thing, I remain a shooter without creds and thus cannot even shoot spec to help myself build that part of my business. How is someone in my shoes supposed to respond? Just quit? Move on only to likely repeat this scenario over and over? I just don't get how those of us that are newer to the game are supposed to get known and get access if we aren't willing to make some capitulation. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 2:04 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Thanks Debra and for the record, I hope I didn't imply in any way that you advocate WFF. I just read your posts in another thread and felt that you and Jody understood the point I am trying to make. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 2:16 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Debra, An excellent post about working SMARTER. Many want assignments falling into their lap, handed to them. It takes hard work, REJECTION (Lots of Rejection). And you have given insight to how that rejection can work into paying assignments.
As for your comments about "rude attitudes by "some of the best in the business" and how they treat others." I ssee it being cynical because they are giving life-learned, well-rounded business advice with intent to help. But, NO ONE IS LISTENING! Instead, many here rather argue points that have nothing to do with the advice given, or they are pompus like they know more than the experenced shooter. |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 2:38 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Mark - Isn't there more than one solution to this puzzle? A successful business person doesn't always just take someone's advice as gospel and fall in line. There are as paths to success as there are people traveling them. An inexperienced photographer doesn't always mean an inexperienced business person, and personal experience always counts for something regardless of age.
I think what some folks are recoiling from is this idea that there is one (and only one) absolutely right way to do this. That's just not the case in business, even this business.
EVERYONE who is successful at something can look back to the beginning (or the middle) and share an example of something they did that was 'outside the norm' or 'against the grain' or 'contrary to popular opinion'. They had a specific goal in mind, and that outside-the-box step served the end-goal in a way that falling-in-line couldn't.
Nothing is black and white, there are always shades of gray. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 3:05 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Mark,
Jody wrote"But I've been slapped in the face by some of the best in the business as well. I've been told things such as "you have picked up photography later than most of us" and "You are not a seasoned photojournalist - thus I cannot critique your images". I've been dismissed when asking for ideas with shooting basketball, and I've been told that I have "no idea how to edit or what makes a good photo". These statements weren't followed up with answers to my questions or any type of teaching dialog so I was left on my own trying to figure it out, which is fine because I am. "
This is not being cynical with intent to help, this is being RUDE. Nothing more-just being rude, and acting very insecure!
When I heard a "known"photographer complaining about another one with a non pro camera taking up space, that this photographer did not deserve to be there taking a credential since they are never published (and by the way, this photographer did not even know the name of the one they were complaining about) it is just sheer rudeness. I have witnessed this first hand, experienced it first hand, and have received countless emails from photographers all over the country who have experienced similiar things from "some of the best in the business."
I moved to NYC in 1999 and met some of THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS who were nothing but sweet, cordial, helpful and just wonderful. Richard Drew from AP, David Handschuh, Susan Watts, Todd Maisel and the rest of the PROS at the NY Daily News, Suzanne Plunkett from AP, Barbara Nitke, Ebet Roberts, Larry Busacca, Gary Gershoff, a young talented and smart photographer named Talisman Brolin. THESE photographers, these people,set the precedent for me and continue to do so. These are some of the photographers I Iook up to. They never talk down to anyone, are always there to help, and are professional.
This profession needs more people like them. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> There are always many solutions to business. I agree.
No one has said there is only one way. However, more than seven experienced pro shooters, several are best of the best in the business, are giving the same advice, which is the basis for the previous post shown above. If the inexperienced shooters rather not take that well-intended advice they shouldn't keep arguing the point on the forum. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 3:12 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Before this spins tangentially off topic, anyone else care to take a stab at my question...how do the non vets get the very access that is required in order for them to one day become vets themselves? Let's further assume that we all understand that you have to produce solid images, be professional, and work hard. If you don't do that, you aren't going to do well, access or not. Soooo, how are we supposed to do it? |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 3:17 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> That is a tough situation, I empathize with you..., but I would say while your working those professional relationships with editors to grant you access and assignments- continue to shoot- keep your website up to date, work on photo stories, explore the lives of people, work on portraiture, team up with other photographers where you live, and find someone like you, in the "sense" that they are trying to make it in something they love... and photograph their efforts, if all else fails follow Debra's example, and remember there is more to photography than sports. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Debra, I am only talking about the experienced photographers on this forum.
I understand dealing with egos. That is common in this business, even with my experience, but that is just a way of life, so be it. You dealt with it well. It wasn't right, the way you (Jody) were treated, but lot in life isn't right. Standing ground will go a long way in establishing equal footing, that's will gain respect. But don't focus on rejection, the negative. But do take constructive input and don't take it personal.
The excellent point you made, you CHOOSE to move on and did not let those egos hamper you from going forward.
Enjoyed reading the response when someone said they never heard of you, you replied, "YOU WILL" Thats the way to handle it. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 3:24 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Why do you have to have access? |
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Francis Specker, Photographer
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Riverside | CA | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> I don't think there is a short answer to this question.
You might actually have to pay your dues by working at a student publication or a small newspaper for a few years and get connections and experience. That's what I did.
25 years later and its still not easy to get access to some things because everything is so tightly controlled. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Can't you become a vetern by photographing little leaque? One established pro pointed that out on this forum. Why is it so important to have that access to become a vetern photog. I am not being rude here, just wondering why its so important to you? |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 3:28 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> However is just a fancy word for "but." - Yes, but no.
I think folks should be able to discuss/argue the topic as they see fit. I think you can take the well-intended advice and decide it doesn't work for you. This idea that if they don't agree with you they should just zip it - it's hooey. (I mean that in the most respectful way possible.)
Let's support the continued discussion. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 3:34 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Debra wrote in her first post-
"don't call us because we won't call you-we never heard of you"
So outside of taking pictures, a freelancers biggest task is getting to know the editors at the publications you would like to shoot for. One of the easiest ways to meet editors is in school as a student, internships and for those not in school, workshops. As we all know being a photographer is an awesomes job, although some would argue with the recent downturn in the news media business, evenstill, act fast, your not alone- that is the good and bad of it. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> "->> Can't you become a vetern by photographing little leaque? One established pro pointed that out on this forum. Why is it so important to have that access to become a vetern photog. I am not being rude here, just wondering why its so important to you?"
absolutely Mark, that is where you can cut your teeth, learn what works and doesn't, improve your images, etc. In the end, if you only want to shoot little league, then access is inconsequential. But what if you want to go beyond little league? I'm not trying to be rude either Mark but it doesn't seem to me that any of the best of the best here have limited themselves to little league so somehow, somewhere in there, they got access. |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 3:58 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> I've been here. Just reading, listening, learning. Nothing that's been written has convinced me that anyone has the right to tell someone else to stop discussing/arguing this topic. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Want a way for access, try marketing yourself, have you done that lately?
1.) How many here use direct mail postcards for reaching potential clients, PE, etc?
2.)How many here have a database with potential clients they want PAID work?
3.) How many of you have a purchased subscription to to a lising service?
4.) How many have enough PhotoShop skills to create a snazzy postcard?
Well, do the above with some of your best sports images, and mail a different postcard image monthly for the next 12 months, and you will have access?
Use amazingmail.com for mailing the cards, printing and postage is about 90 cents per card. Order only 1 card or 5000, professionally printed.
Stay away from wire services though, or the above will only cost money instead of making it. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 4:13 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Jean ~ Well, there is nothing wrong with just wanting to argue. I don't suppose. |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 4:34 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Mark - just wanting to argue? That's so far from the intent of my comment that I think you're just here to twist and spin.
To answer your questions:
1. I do.
2. I do.
3. I have.
4. I do.
All good advice. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Thanks Mark, that was constructive and helpful advice. |
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
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Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Since some one mentioned Little League I'll comment...
I've been photographing our local league all season, as well as the 2 other adjoining leagues in our area. With permission from the league presidents and district administrators, I have full access.
It is a learning experience, and has been some of the most exciting photography I've had the privilege to shoot... I'm happy starting at the bottom, and working my way up.
Working for the league and being in contact with the coaches has networked me for other sports such as wrestling, hockey, and BMX. It's also provided me with free advertising for my work, and publication in the local league book, and web site.
Credentials for the Little League World Series are up and available now. As described even for them... Little League International issues over 500 credentials for the LLWS and welcomes Freelance Journalists - with the approval of a local media outlet.
2008 Little League Baseball World Series Media Registration
http://www.littleleague.org/media/index.asp
Would I like to shoot MLB some day? Sure... But I'm just as happy providing quality service to my small town... I've also gained the respect of our local press photographers, and sports groups... I'm happy. |
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John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Gates Mills | OH | USA | Posted: 5:41 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> I'll try to answer Scott's question here, but I've been doing this a long time, so some of what I say just doesn't apply anymore. For example, when I started in 1981, because of relationships I developed, I could write to an NFL PR Director, request a credential, and they would send me one. That simply doesn't happen anymore. I've shot over 500 NFL games, and I couldn't do it anymore. The landscape has changed.
First, in Debra's earlier post, notice that she was persistent. You will here no more often than not. Be polite. Keep in contact. Ultimately that and a little luck was what got me working with the Browns.
Working with an NFL team gave me lots of opportunities to develop relationships with people who worked in sports photography. I took advantage of that as much as possible. I made connections with NFL Photos (they no longer exist.) They could get me credentials when I wasn't working for the Browns. This turned out to be very valuable when the Browns left after the 1995 season. When I wasn't working for the Browns (Monday nights or playoffs, etc.), and especially after the Browns moved to Baltimore, I worked as a stock shooter at NFL games. I did well at it, as I had developed a good business sense about shooting the NFL.
Other relationships with editors and such helped me as I moved into shooting MLB games (I'm fortunate and get to shoot games for stock like Brad does), and for a while NBA games. I haven't shot an NBA game in 10 years. For the type of work I do, it just isn't possible. Do I miss it? A little. I shoot D III basketball instead. I do miss the NBA quality light!
I'm reluctant to mention this next item, as many will feel I'm bragging, but I'm really not. I want to illustrate the importance of relationships and trying to work well with people. I was able to shoot stock at the Super Bowl once.(I had a roam the stands, shoot from the stands credential. To me better than a spot in the stands, as some had, as I could choose from where I shot) It was in Detroit (Steelers / Seahawks), so I could drive in the day of the game, shoot and come home (left at 6:00 a.m. Sunday morning, back home at 3:30 a.m. Monday morning.) No hotel, a tank and a half of gas, some McDonalds to eat. Gas was cheaper then, so my total out of pocket was about $75.00. So, how was I able to get a credential to the Super Bowl? I asked someone if they could get me one. And they did. Obviously, I'm not asking just anyone. It was someone with whom I had a good relationship. And who could help me.
This business is all about building relationships and working well with people. I've always tried hard to do that.
It's much harder today than when I started. There are about 3,000 members here at SportsShooter. I'm going to say at least 1,500 would like to be shooting pro events regularly but aren't able to do so. Let's just look at the numbers. On a given NFL Sunday there are, on average, 15 games. That's 100 people per game, if everyone geographically and proportionally lived in NFL areas. There aren't that many shooters at games, let alone room to add that many. Even more so with MLB games. It's not that people who shoot pro sports are trying to keep others out. There really isn't enough room for all those who would like to do it ON AN EVERDAY basis. That means it might be a game here and a game there for along time.
Some people (like myself) are very lucky. Others have talent that is head, shoulders, standing on the rooftops above everyone else. They will rise quickly.
If your goal is to work at pro events on a regular basis, you have to work at it constantly. Face boatloads of rejection. (I posted once before about being rejected for a credential after shooting over 400 NFL games.) You will work every holiday (at one time or another), miss many big family events (I'm in the doghouse here because for the second year in a row I will be out of town on my daughter's birthday) etc., etc., etc.
Be proactive. Come up with unique story angles. Pitch them to people who might be intersted. This will take time and effort. You will here no a lot. The ability to shoot at pro events will not just fall from the sky. Keep at it.
Finally, be smart and realistic. If you don't live within an easy drive of a pro team city, well, as a friend recently put it, "in today's business climate, they're not putting you on an airplane!"
I've written (more than) enough. I will be glad to answer any questions through email.
John |
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John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Gates Mills | OH | USA | Posted: 5:46 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Pitch them to people who might be intersted.
That's interested, of course. |
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Keith Mokris, Student/Intern
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Cleveland | OH | USA | Posted: 5:54 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> I just wanted to say that as a student this thread offers a lot of good ideas and perspectives. Thanks for everyone who's contributed. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 5:57 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Richard, that's great and have fun if you shoot the LLWS. I am not against shooting little league. I shoot that as well as prep sports for MaxPreps, my own site, and sometimes local papers. I've had the privilege of shooting some MLB, MiLB, minor league hockey, pro bmx, and even political candidates as well. I am not looking to bypass the work hard, move up route and despite having some access to pro venues at times, I very much enjoy shotting prep sports and constantly learn as a result. My post isn't a how do you get started kinda post. What I was hoping to hear is how the best of the best here got access when maybe they weren't the best of the best yet. I've read some stuff from some of the most respected shooters out there who told of how they did whatever they had to when they were starting out and it would seem that is almost a prerequisite. At the same time, we are being told not to do that.
All that said, how does one position themselves to get the access they need without giving work away or shooting spec? What if that someone is not a kid who can just go back to school and start their life all over with classes? THAT is my question that, for the most part, has gone unanswered so far. |
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Tom Sperduto, Photographer
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Edison | NJ | USA | Posted: 8:26 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Scott,
It's exciting to see the wheels turning and so much thought going into the "business" side of our profession. If anything, the next time anyone is put into a position to have to make a tough decision on what choice to make I am sure these boards have to help.
As for me, I was fortunate to gain access to shoot NFL games by shooting the military color guards before the game and at half time. I was limited to shooting from the tunnel (off the field). I shot pictures of the security guards and I made them some prints and brought them back the next time I had an assignment to shoot the color guards. This gesture allowed me to stand in the end zone and shoot the game for the first two quarters. This, along with padding my portfolio shooting high school games on my time, eventually resulted in assignment work shooting NFL games for AP and also freelance gigs with the Asbury Park Press and also the Newark Star Ledger.
I don't shoot much sports anymore, as I now work mostly as a location portrait photographer doing mostly advertising, magazine editorial and commercial work.
I believe in working on personal projects. I am always working on several.
I recently shot an Ultra Marathon. Portraits of Ultra runners is one of my personal projects. I traveled to Virginia on my own dime, and I shot the race for myself because I would like to create advertising and commercial images of Ultra Marathon runners. It's something I am passionate about. I wasn't competing with anyone, I wasn't taking work away from anyone, and to date the images have created great relationships with Ultra runners, race directors and have got interest from advertising agencies I market to, one who is now considering me for an advertising shoot with the Miami Dolphins. I have sold images to a major running magazine, and I have turned down several requests for images requested for free (We'll give you credit!) and also for some that I feel is not a fair market price. One was a cover shot and six inside images, but the offer was just bad for business. If the images are good enough, the tear sheet isn’t going to do much more than the images in my portfolio and my marketing promos.
I was once told when I was starting out (I still feel like I am starting out, this is such a complex business) to not be surprised to learn that your reputation can often mean more than your images. I believe that is true not only among our fellow photographers but also with the people that hire us.
Opportunities come from the relationships we make, hard work and often a little bit of luck. The tricky part is deciding if an opportunity is in our best interest (and I believe) in the best interest of our profession. A tougher decision when you are trying to feed your family. Regardless, of what we all read on these posts, we will still need to make tough decisions, but we are fortunate we don't have to make them alone if we choose to. I wish I had a nickel for every photographer that took the time to teach me the ropes, both as a photographer and as a businessman. Those nickels add up here on these forums also.
This is a tough time to be a photographer. But ... regardless there is nothing more beautiful than being that.
I hope this helps somewhat and I have somewhat answered your question.
Keep the faith. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 9:08 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Scott,
I'd also like to know why you need access. There are different ways, depending on what you need to accomplish.
--Mark |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 10:12 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Tom and John, thanks very much, that all is quite helpful and I appreciate your candid comments and insight.
Mark, I'm not sure I completely "get" your question and apologize in advance if I seem defensive in my answer. Bottom line, I am not looking for the glory of sitting on the sidelines if that's what you wonder. In fact, the times I have shot any pro events from a credentialed position were FAR more work than when I shot them as a fan from the stands or when I shoot prep sports. It's not as glamorous as it may seem, I get that, I've done it. That said, I want/need access for the same reason you or anyone else here does. I think we all know that you aren't going to get the attention of editors, pro athletes agents, or companies that have these athletes on payroll shooting prep sports only. If that were the case or prep sports were that lucrative (and perhaps it's just the area where I live) then market forces would play out and you'd find most of the photogs here on the sidelines of the next high school home game rather than in the photo wells at Progressive Field. Again, apologies if I am going down the wrong path with your question, I've just been asked this before and don't understand it. Really, why does anyone want access (rhetorical)? |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 10:43 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> "I think we all know that you aren't going to get the attention of editors, pro athletes, agents, or companies that have these athletes on payroll shooting prep sports only"
This is a false statement, and something that people think is true.
What gets the attention of editors are kick ass images, period. The fact that you have a shot of Chad Johnson running with the ball won't hold a candle to a nice shot taken at a high school or pee wee football game. High School Football is very profitable, but be smart about it. Hit schools with plenty of disposable income. For most high school players, this will be their last time playing competitive football and it is a very emotional thing for the parents and players.
As far as "companies that have these athletes on payroll", well that would fall into "commercial usage", and in the case of the NFL you could not sell that usage, (thanks to our good friends at Getty-but that's a whole other topic for debate). So, you would not have that market available to you. I'd rather be the only photographer, with a well thought out business plan at a high school football game than shooting on spec at an NFL game anyday. |
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Darren Carroll, Photographer
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Cedar Creek (Austin) | TX | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> Scott,
While I appreciate the nature of the question and applaud you for the honesty of your answer, I've said it before in this forum, and I'll say it again (only this time in not as many words as usual):
The editors, art directors, etc. at the places you want seeing your work are NOT going to be impressed by the fact that you shoot pro (or other) big-time sports. They're going to be impressed by innovative, creative, and perhaps mind-blowing work from anywhere.
A boring picture of a golfer following through on a tee shot is still a boring picture, regardless of whether it's a guy at your local muni track or Tiger Woods. A picture of a guy skating up the ice is just as average coming from a minor-league game as it is from an NHL game. The same action doesn't get more visually interesting just because the players' salaries are bigger or their faces more recognizable.
By assuming that editors want and/or need to see famous names and faces rather than better sports pictures, you're doing yourself, and your career aspirations, a great disservice.
What any editor wants to see is fantastic work that shows vision and the ability to make a captivating image in any situation. You don't need to be shooting the big time stuff to do that. In fact, I think you'll find that the higher the echelon of the sport you're covering, the more restrictive the access gets, and therefore the less creative you can be. |
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Robert Benson, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> When posting horrifically long messages here, try breaking up long paragraphs with spaces (above and below the paragraphs).
The white space makes it easier and more inviting to read.
Thanks. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 11:02 PM on 06.30.08 |
| ->> Mike, I understand its a sweeping statement but I have had many rejections where the editor or person functioning as editor did not want to even see a portfolio of images that were prep based. I have also requested work as an assistant that got rejected because at that time, I had no pro sports experience. So while I understand it's not a completely true statement all of the time, I have had quite a few experiences where it's proven to be very true. My other example does fall into commercial use and i should not have used that as I know better. Apologies that I hit the send button a little too quickly on that one. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 11:51 PM on 06.30.08 |
->> I gotta get some sleep but I wanted to end today's discussion with a big thanks to all who responded. While I don't agree completely with everything (anymore than others probably agree with me) I think lots of great stuff did get posted. I don't think I really got too many answers to my question but I got lots and lots of great stuff to think about and to me, that is progress forward and for that I am grateful.
Darren, thanks for the motivation. I think I've got that in me so I am going to make a real point of putting a ton of thought into all of my shoots, pro or otherwise. Only time will tell where that gets me but I know one thing, I'll be a better shooter for having done it.
Night all, thanks again. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 1:35 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> Scott,
It is not true that you need pro sports images in your portfolio to "get noticed." There are plenty of bad pro sports images out there.
The quality of an image or the talent of a photographer have nothing to do with whether the subjects are getting paid.
--Mark |
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Dave Cone, Photographer
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| Florida | | Posted: 9:11 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> Sports Illustrated staff photographer Bill Frakes shoots Super Bowls to frog jumping contests to skate parks.
It's up to you what you shoot -- but there are images everywhere. You don't need SI creds to get you into the quirky contests or the local skate parks.
You just need motivation.
-DC |
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Greg Foster, Photographer
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Atlanta | GA | | Posted: 9:50 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> I've said this before in another thread, and I'll say it again in this one because I think it's relevant...
Here is a photographer who you may have heard of, check out his website, specifically the category "Children's Sports". 47 photos of pee wee football, sandlot baseball, sandlot football, street basketball, and much more.
www.walteriooss.com
Again, go to the category "Children's Sports", and see what can be done without stepping into a pro sports stadium. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:19 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> Greg, I swear some of those Iooss images make me want to drop my gear in a lake.
Jeff |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 10:25 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> "You don't need SI creds to get you into the quirky contests or the local skate parks."
You also don't need SI creds to make good photos.
If an editor tells you they need to see images of pro athletes or they won't consider you for a job, you ought to look for other people to market yourself too. I don't understand why somebody would tell you that. Like Mark said, a great photograph has nothing to do with the subject's income. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 10:41 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> Of course, I've heard of him but frankly had never seen his children's sports section before (hmm, maybe I was distracted by some of his other images?) Thing is, none of his children's images posted there are within the last 25 yrs. Who knows, maybe he still frequents the sandlot from time to time to shoot, I really don't know. Thanks for pointing that part of his site out though, it's awesome. My only question (and this is going to come out wrong but isn't intended to be) if shooting sandlot was so lucrative for Walt back in the 60's and 70's, why did he give that all up to do what he does now?
It's funny how some here seem to infer that I am suggesting I am above shooting youth sports. NOTHING could be further from the truth. Most of what I shoot is youth sports (including a ton of time in the skateparks Dave...as a rider myself, I have a soft spot for shooting there).
I've thought about this a bit since yesterday and one thing that seems clear is that even though I asked about how to get more access I can't seem to get an actual answer to that question. I have my own suspicions as to why but that's not really important. Maybe I don't understand enough about why I think I want more access than I've had so far. I think part of it is emulation. The best of the best here seem to have chosen the pro venue as their means to an end so it seems natural that an upstart like me would aspire to the same. Money talks and I am sure that if youth sports were more lucrative than pro sports, you'd find photo wells being installed at the little league fields and credentials being issued for U9 soccer games.
That said, let me ask a different question that might help me decide if I do need more access at all. To those who keep telling me that I don't need access but whose profiles feature shots that require that very access, why do you want/need access? What makes you different than me or many others here in that regard? I ask this in the most respectful sense (which is tough to convey sometimes on the internet). Bear in mind that I still plan on shooting youth sports and such regardless of whether I gain more access or not. I just want to understand what it is/was that drove you to pursuing the pro venue over youth sports so that I can decide which route is better for me. Anyone want to take a stab at this? |
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Tom Sperduto, Photographer
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Edison | NJ | USA | Posted: 10:53 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> My only question (and this is going to come out wrong but isn't intended to be) if shooting sandlot was so lucrative for Walt back in the 60's and 70's, why did he give that all up to do what he does now?
----
Scott,
I think you've missed the point. If you shoot outstanding images ANYWHERE opportunity will find you.
You get access but working your way up the ladder. Shoot OUTSTANDING youth sports and someone is going to notice. It may get you on the sideline of a High School game 9and paid!). Shoot OUTSTANDING images of a HS game and you may get the opportunity to shoot college. Shoot OUTSTANDING images of a college game and you may get the opportunity to shoot NFL.
I also believe you can shoot up the ladder and skip the steps. Shoot MIND BLOWING images (Walter Iooss)of children's sports and the calls are coming regardless.
Great images are great images. Period. |
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Greg Foster, Photographer
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Atlanta | GA | | Posted: 11:36 AM on 07.01.08 |
->> Scott, I doubt that shooting sandlot sports in particular was especially "lucrative" for Walter - I don't know if all of those pictures were shot on assignment or not, but I would think that he probably shot a lot of them more for the love of photography and the love of sports. As far as frequenting the sandlots now, I would bet that if he ran across something that looked interesting, he would probably be all over it, assignment or not, again, for the love of photography and the love of sports.
As far as when you say the photos were shot, 12 of them were fairly recent, between 1995 and 2001, and that's kind of my point. Early on and in recent years, between shooting big events, pro games, well known athletes, etc., he was still shooting youth stuff also. Again, I would think, for the love of photography and the love of sports.
Lots of good photographers do things like this, Walter is just the only one I know who has such a good example of it on his website.
It's really not about whether the photos are of pro sports or pee wee football - I don't think you have to make a choice between "the pro venue" or "youth sports". It's certainly not about being "above" shooting youth sports - it might be even harder to come away with great photos in youth sports.
Short answer to your question about access to college or pro sports: As a freelancer, you will almost certainly always have to have a media organization request credentials for you on their letterhead. I don't really know any way around that, other than to get yourself assigned...the Catch-22 situation which would lead us right into that other discussion about the various media outlets that people are shooting for, for what some might consider debatable amounts of compensation or noncompensation. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> Thanks Greg, understood. Tom, also understood.
One thing is for sure (not directed at anyone in particular), If I had a dollar for every time I have hit the delete key during this thread in an attempt to show discretion in my comments, I wouldn't need access since I'd be rich already.
I think people understand what I am actually asking but I also think I understand why I'm not getting answer. Sometimes, there's much to learn in what isn't said. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Non Conforming | MA | United States | Posted: 12:18 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> "I think people understand what I am actually asking but I also think I understand why I'm not getting answer. Sometimes, there's much to learn in what isn't said."
A true sign of wisdom on your part. |
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Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
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Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> Scott - Don't rule out shooting on spec to get access. It can be very beneficial to your photography pursuits if done properly and within the bigger picture of what it can do for the overall development of your skills and business.
In the never-ending discussion on spec, let me throw the a little gas onto the fire:
"CHANDLER, AZ-Shot the Professional Wakeboarding Tour as it made its first stop to the Phoenix area at the salty Firebird Lake in Chandler. Other than feeling like total crap all wekeend (sic) from being sick, it was an enjoyable shoot for one of many big clients I now have thanks to the exposure and experience I have gained shooting on spec (cue the screams of agony from the SS crowd!) I can assure you there are many successful photographers who now have staff jobs at major newspapers/magazines and high profile freelance shooters who owe spec for the experience/exposure/workflow it taught them."
Mark Rebilas, from his member page.
And another well-respected member herein gives his experience working on spec:
"The only time I worked for "free" was when I worked on "spec" for agencies - but of course w/ the expectation of a 50% return on any sale - so it wasn't for free."
Vince Laforet from another post a few days ago.
So, adding these two to the list of spec shooters who have "outed themselves" on this site allows me to once again pose the question: "If Rebilas and Laforet (et al.) can do it, why can't I?"
I'll offer my opinion on this question. It seems to me that both Mr. Rebilas and Mr. Laforet (and other well-respected photographers) had/have a specific objective in mind when they made/make the informed decision to accept a spec assignment. This objective goes well beyond just obtaining credentials, getting into a game for "free" or simply shooting some photos that might end up in their portfolio.
Shooting on spec is not inherently "evil", "idiotic", "naive", "amateur", a "crash course with failure" or even "bad business" (all quotes from others on this forum) if it is done in context of a larger plan. In other words, if you are, as Mr. Rebilas states, doing it for the "experience/exposure/workflow", then shooting spec can play a positive role in the advancement of your photography skills and profession.
Now, to the other point made above: the expectation of being paid for the images you submit. This is where it gets interesting as I see it. If the agency for whom you are working on spec is unsuccessful in selling your images, pays a low % (as judged by you), pays slowly, or in any other way nets you inadequate financial gain, then you're effectively working for free. IMO, working for free has very limited utility to a photographer, and there had better be a very compelling reason to do so.
In fact, you will be worse off than working for free since you will be paying all your expenses and expending your time with nothing in return other than the personal satisfaction from covering the event. With today's gas prices being what they are, and parking fees, meals, internet access fees, etc., a single game can easily cost you >$50, and this doesn't even take into account the other costs like equipment purchase, depreciation, maintenance, insurance, telecom costs, etc. not to mention the opportunity cost of you covering the event for them while foregoing something else that could have been more beneficial to you financially, personally or professionally.
In short, you will be paying THEM to shoot. This might be OK for an extraordinary opportunity or experience, but I would seriously question the long-term viability of following this course of action.
If you are working spec for the credentials (and have received the benefits listed by Mr. Rebilas), producing quality and sell-able images, and your agency consistently fails to place your shots, then you will fairly quickly realize you have gotten what you wanted out of the relationship with your agency, and be faced with the question "Now that I have garnered the experience/exposure/workflow benefits I desired, and I'm not receiving sufficient financial remuneration from this agency, do I really want to continue to work essentially for free?"
When and if this day comes, the decision will be yours to make - continue to shoot on "spec" and not receive the compensation you wish to receive for what you are producing, find another spec agency with a better record of placing and paying for their spec shooter's work, or take the experience you have gained by working on spec and sell your services to a client who is willing to compensate you for everything you have become as a professional photographer.
Good luck and don't forget to enjoy the journey. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 12:49 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> Scott, no disrepect - I don't see the love of photography from you, but its more about chasing a dream of being in the big league. That's what I gain from your posts, its just wanting access.
The big leaque is over saturated anyway. I am not saying you can't do the big leaque, but try to focus on love of photography, SHOOT GREAT Images no matter the leaque. Market yourself, don't sell yourself short and the rest will fall into place. It takes time.
Myself, having experience 26 years - I have worked big league to little leaque. I have just as much enjoyment of photographing kids sports as the big leaque. Actually, its less of a hassle. No having camera busted at the airport, (as Bert talks about in the current newsletter) No walking from one will call window on the north side, then walking to the south side to enter the staduim, etc. Bottom line I just enjoy shooting, no matter what the subject.
I made personal choices which direction my business and life would take. I am happy with that direction. I decided to raise a family in the country instead of living in the big city. While I still travel the southeast, I haven't had big league access in a few years (my choice too). However, SI has called for for assignments. Once on a Sunday afternoon, while I was spending time with family out by the pool. How did I do that? Best way, I by pass media outets(not enough income that route). I have SI on my direct mail postcard list. The card has GREAT IMAGES, and not one photo on the card was created from big league ACCESS. |
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Mark Davis, Photographer
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Decatur | AL | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> Dennis said-----let me throw the a little gas onto the fire: "CHANDLER, AZ-Shot the Professional Wakeboarding Tour as it made its first stop to the Phoenix area at the salty Firebird Lake in Chandler. Other than feeling like total crap all wekeend (sic) from being sick, it was an enjoyable shoot for one of many big clients I now have thanks to the exposure and experience I have gained shooting on spec
---Dennis, spec travel from IL to AZ. Who paid your travel expenses, your pocket or the spec agency? |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:56 PM on 07.01.08 |
->> "...how do we get ourselves in a legitimate position to a) have access on a consistent basis and b) have reputable outlets for our work product? "
Scott:
Here is how you do it:
First of all you will need patience, a lot of it, and then one of the following options.
OPTION #1:
You will need to knock on doors and find editors or publications who are willing to utilize your talents. You will need to make contact with these individuals, show them work that is far-and-above what the other 2000 people seeking the same opportunity are showing them, and you will need to be able to put out a quality product.
After the initial contact you need have a system to constantly remind the contacts you meet that you are available and give them a vehicle to see you new work, be it a CD, website link, print portfolio (you can do some cool sh*t with a color laser printer and inDesign).
Remember, there are going to be 30 to 100 other shooters wanting the same opportunity you want. How are you and your product going stand out?
If you are serious about moving to "the next level", as many photo plebes call it, to shoot pro sports you need to build your port with an outstanding set of youth and prep sports, amateur and semi-pro events, and when you can pro images (not your run of the mill pitcher thrown on the mound or QB in the pocket throwing).
As serveral others have reiterated, you don't need to have pro sports in your portfolio to transition to shooting pro sports on a regular basis.
If it is honesty you want, here it is: You will need a lot stronger images than you have in your member gallery if you want to shoot pro sports - plain and simple. Right off the bat you need either a mentor or an editor to teach you about cropping and composition. A finer ability in image toning and learning to white balance would help as well. From a photo editor's prespective based on what your member gallery holds you likely wouldn't be my top pick and I wouldn't offer you top dollar either if you were a choice. Those images don't scream "I'm ready".
With a good mentor or two from this site, someone interested in seeing succeed, in two years you could be in much better position to break into the pro/college level.
OPTION #2
Start your own weekly/monthly sports publication. Publish it for a year and build a relationship with the local pro and college teams. Cover them extensively as they will allow you to do so. It will take some time to build a repoire. As those team trust your coverage and fans of your publication give offer feedback you'll get the access you want.
In the mean time you'll still need to work on improving your image quality.
OPTION #3
By far the easiest method is marry the daughter of team owner. Not as cheap as OPTION #1 or #2 for that matter, but the bennies could be real nice...nudge, nudge, wink, wink . . .
OPTION #4
Start or create your own team or league. Personally, option #3 is much easier as you won't have time to actually improve your photography because you will be spending most of your time in meetings with corporate lawyers like T.D. Paulius (SS member), negotiating financing and contracts, and worry about a bunch of other headaches that come with being a team owner.
OPTION #5
Get a job at you local paper as a stringer....of course you are going to need to build you book first. While you are out and about shooting everything under the sun trying to make impressive images you might run into a shooter from the paper. Get to know them and pay attention to their work so you get a feel for the 'flavor' your paper likes. Not all editors or publications have the same visual direction.
Once you have an outstanding set of images, go to the photo editor and show him what you got. Talk about opportunities (the way the newspaper business is going right now don't be surprised if there isn't anything initially) and how you can work together. Stay positive and keep developing that portfolio. Keep in touch with the editor on a regular basis.
Hope this helps. Oh, and later after you improved a bit on your post-processing, if you want a portfolio review sometime feel free to contact me offline. I'd be happy to give it a once over with suggestions. |
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