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Unpaid Internships - revisited
Vincent Laforet, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 12:02 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> This is a follow up to a thread started by Dan Powers in July of 2003 see the link below:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=2758
I am wondering how/if opinions have changed almost 5 years later. When I responded to Dan's post in 2003 - I was a staff photographer - now I run my own business and it's not uncommon for me to receive requests from people who'd like to assist/intern me - often for free.
I've set my own policy: I don't believe in having people work for me for free - I just don't feel right about it - the cost of living in New York City is just to high - and I think it sets a bad precedent. If someone is doing a good job - I think they should be remunerated.
That being said: I turn down over a dozen highly enthusiastic people each year - because I don't think they're experienced enough to merit being paid - they have too much to learn before they can justify what I would pay them - and I prefer to turn them down rather than to have them work for free.
I should clarify that I've had several assistants and interns in the past and that I already have a full time studio manager who does most of the heavy lifting - and what I've learned is that while most of the interns are great to have around - I also invest a lot of time into teaching them much of what the photo school/programs seem to miss. I in fact often have to pay someone else to redo/fix some of the work the interns do - so not only am I spending money to hire them initially - but I'll often have to pay someone to fix inconsistencies they may left behind. So in many ways I find myself losing money by helping someone learn the business - and that's where my question comes in:
If people are willing to pay lots of money to go the current photo programs - is it still wrong to hire someone w/o pay as an intern and give them experience they would not likely get at one of those programs? Can - not - paying someone be justified - or is it still best to follow a policy such as mine and turn down people who are not qualified enough - even though they might eventually benefit, and in some weird logic "save" money by learning stuff they might not otherwise learn, even after paying schools to teach it to them?
I'd love to hear from other photographers as well as past/future interns to see what they think. And I'd also appreciate it if you kept your comments focused on the general question (i.e. not related to me or the value of working for me or any specific photographer.) Basically I'd like to get hear some of your opinions and discuss. Thanks. |
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Peter Hoffman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Athens/ Naperville | OH/IL | US | Posted: 12:30 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> Vincent,
I really respect your policy of paying interns, as it often seems that many people who've made a name for themselves look at it like they are giving their interns a gift by letting them work there (in some ways they are).
I think, however, that by paying the interns you are teaching them the most valuable lesson which is that their work is worth something, always. I think it sets a better precedent for the industry in general.
That said, I did a short internship last summer in NYC for free pretty much. I mean I got some perks etc. But I wasn't paid. It was okay for me at the time because I had saved some money by living with my parents and working for local newspapers for a year, and I had a friend who was gracious enough to give me her couch in Manhattan for half the summer. I learned a lot from it but not enough to justify doing it again. In some ways I feel like I learned my lesson, even though it was a good experience...
Not paying interns is a slippery slope, I feel a little weird about my unpaid internship after the fact. I think that those people who really want to learn from you but might be underqualified will make themselves more qualified in time if they really want it. And by that point, they will hopefully be more of an asset and less of a liability to you.
One other thing to consider is to let interns know what you pay to fix mistakes made by previous ones, and to hold them liable to some degree for these mistakes. That could be a motivating factor for better organizational / post production or whatever you might have the interns working on. |
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Jim Comeau, Student/Intern, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:38 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> Paid versus unpaid internships is always going to be a tough argument. On one hand, it allows companies to get free labor at the expense of extra training and possible screw ups. The student learns and pays for it with time, not tuition. On the other hand, the student has to sacrifice time that could be put towards some other learning experience that actually pays. Also the student probably receives no stipend for gas. The company could possibly provide no training in exchange for free labor.
That said, let me share my opinions. I had an internship last semester with a small 8 person advertising agency. It was unpaid because they really didn't have a budget for it. I had to sacrifice 3 days of work from my regular job and had to spend a gallon of gas each way. I gave up a lot to have an internship on resume. Oh yeah, and I did NOT receive credit for that internship because my school's policy at the time only allowed credit for spring internships.
I learned how the biz works. I learned how new business gets researched, I learned more lingo, and I learned what really matters instead of the blanket of info that gets taught in most classes. I interned for 2 months until I found another internship at a much bigger agency.
At the larger agency, I learned more than I could possibly imagine. I learned how clients act. I learned several of the industry tools that I wouldn't have ever learned in class. I also learned a lot of the lingo that goes on and learned how departments work (the good and the bad hehe). Again, this internship is not paid but I am learning so much. I also have a nationally recognized agency on my resume that should open doors for interviews for jobs after graduation. Resumes are the name of the game in advertising when you work on the account management side because we don't have portfolios. Having recognizable names is key.
I am considering applying for a third internship with national and/or international agencies but I doubt many of them are paid. I should be at the point where I could get a full time job, but in order to work at an agency of my choice, I might have to put in some more time. The payoff later helps. Making contacts also helps because the turnover at agencies is pretty high and people move around a lot.
Overall, I don't mind unpaid internships. Sure, I've racked up a decent credit card bill because I have no time to work. However, I will probably get a better job than many of my classmates because I made sacrifices now. It would be nice to work for minimum wage or get some type of stipend for gas, but that's the way things go at most internships. |
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Octavian Cantilli, Student/Intern
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Gainesville | FL | United States | Posted: 5:46 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> There are few “foot in the door opportunities” relative to the number of students with feet, so I completely agree with something I read in another post. Look at each opportunity on an individual basis and take your own situation into account when deciding whether to take a job or not.
I’ve had an unpaid internship at a daily paper and at a commercial studio together totaling close to nine months, and most of this was 40 plus hours per week. Neither one of these experiences ended in a manner I liked. However, I learned very valuable lessons that eluded me until then. I don’t think it would have been possible for me to learn these lessons at a paid internship. Looking back, holy crap did these experiences make me tougher! I feel like a photo Marine.
Sometimes the easy road isn’t the best road. |
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Jason Fritz, Student/Intern
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 5:47 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> Vincent,
I suppose the answer to the question you pose depends on a few factors. For one, I believe established photographers looking for an intern (or photographers bombarded with requests for an internship) would have to ask themselves how much time they expect the intern to put in each week.
I think most students starting out in this industry would love to assist a well known photographer during photo shoots in order to gain technical experience, knowledge of the business, make connections, etc., especially if the internship is as hands on as the one you offer. (ie more 'this is how you set up a 9 light set up' and less 'can you run down to starbucks again?')
However, there is a difference between an intern working a long, 8 hour shift during a weekend photo shoot in order to gain the experience mention above, and an “internship” that includes working 35-40 hours a week for a photographer without any compensation.
I’ve interned at newspapers all over the country, and while the pay was lousy (all my internships have been paid), I can’t put a price on the knowledge I’ve gained working with all the talented photographers and editors along the way.
I would make this simple distinction.
Interning 10-15 hours a week without compensation is a great opportunity to learn
Interning 30-40 hours a week without compensation is exploitation.
The problem I see with this industry is that there is an unequal playing field that exists. Unfortunately, many of the young photographers coming up who are achieving success are disproportionately affluent and can purchase the requisite gear, attend expensive workshop and afford to take high profile non-paying internships, knowing that the experience gained and connections made will pay off in the end.
I suppose this is an issue for another thread.
My fear is that sometime in the near future, with many newspapers canceling their paid internships programs as a cost cutting measure, the entire field of photography and journalism will be made up of people who can somehow afford to devote 2 years of their life to working for free. This, I believe, is the most compelling argument for paying interns.
I think that a student can get a lot more out of an internship if they are already at a proficient level (i.e. previous internships, completion of upper level journalism/photography classes)
In my opinion, it sounds like your best bet to keep being strict about your selection process and pay your interns.
On second thought, maybe you can take a couple of the eager, less experienced ones on for free, provided it is only 10-15 hours a week!
Good luck.
PS. If you plan to continue with your paid internships, I would love to apply! |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 6:55 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> Unpaid vs. paid
I think it is best to let the intern make the decision. Everyone has a different living arrangement, and an intern worth a hoot should be able to honestly answer a question like "How much do you need to be paid?"
If they're nervous, don't let them wiggle out of the answer - say, "No, I mean seriously. You can't do good work if you're starving. What do you need to make to do a good job for me? You can let me know tomorrow if you need to think about it." Then you can evaluate their answer and go from there. If they lowball and do a really good job, it's always easy enough to pay them a bonus at the end of the internship, and if they're asking for too much you don't want to be working with them anyway because they won't be happy.
It's an important part of the learning process. We all have to make that decision every time we accept a gig. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:01 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> Vince,
It's a tough call because, as you say, they will get experience they won't get in the classroom. Many things we do cannot be taught in school. You have to go out and get hands-on experience and see how different people approach the same situation to develop your own techniques.
However, one thing you may want to look at as an employer is liability. See what your insurance specifies. Someone you are paying is an employee and should be covered under your policies. If someone is working for free are they an employee? If they drop a 20 pound light on a subject's head who is liable? You? Will your insurance pay? Will the person trying to gain experience be stuck with the lawsuit?
I know some companies will "hire" interns who are getting college credit and not give them payment, but some companies, mine included, require that all interns who are "on staff" be paid. Whether this is a policy of not wanting to appear to be getting free labor or it's an issue of them not being true employees and then being out there representing the company, I don't know. |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer, Assistant
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 11:16 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> I think the major difference Vincent, is that you are a for profit organization - whereas a school isn't. That said, expensive journalism schools are probably the biggest ripoff out there right now, and I'm sure that every college student out there with $60k in student loans being offered $25k a year jobs will agree with me.
So, while I'm sure that working - unpaid - for you would be a great learning tool for some student, I think that you are better off paying them. It is, across the board better for the industry, better for the intern, and better for you - both karmic, and hopefully in the quality of intern you get.
As for worrying that you could be teaching more people, helping out in that way, I think that you do a lot - by posting on forums like these and by often participating in interviews and articles, etc. where you give a sneak peak into what goes into making a good photo.
I've been an intern working for free at a newspaper, and I'm now a fulltime freelancer - straight out of college - for a year and a half. I also have a policy where I pay people, no matter who they are, for the work that they do to help me. |
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Jason Orth, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Lincoln | NE | USA | Posted: 11:44 AM on 04.29.08 |
->> "I think the major difference Vincent, is that you are a for profit organization - whereas a school isn't.
Not always. In a lot of cases (The Art Institute schools are one example) these are for-profit institutions, and even publicly funded schools are still held accountable for their expenses - technically it's not "profit," but they aren't given a blank check. |
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Rafael Agustin Delgado, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Pasadena | Ca | USA | Posted: 12:17 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Terms of agreement is everything and in the end it comes down to hopefully the intern and its sponsoring host whether it be a wire, agency, studio, or freelancer gaining a mutual benefit from the experience.
As for you Vincent, I would be frank and open before any intern even applies. List what you expect from prospected students. Most applications list the minimal requirement and there is no reason why an internship can not do the same. There is nothing like real work experience and I feel schools are too heavy in theory versus reality and could be why you have to train intern accordingly. In my experience from school and the little field work I have complete, it simply does not compare and I would be a lost soul if I was not prepare to adjust.
And like with any job, have a probationary period for a test run. Then afterwards, change the terms to make it pay or unpaid, or simply cut both of your losses and move on. Time is the most important commodity and you are more than welcome to regulate that accordingly to your needs. It may be a great opportunity for a student like me to learn under your someone like you however if it does not benefit both parties, why bother.
To pay or not to pay is an issue that will never be resolved simply due to demand and supply. Abuse is far too common in this field and simply makes the few opportunities out there to demand quality. Pay is great but then again how much is it? If I break even for something that will pay dividends later, I will take it. However if I am bleeding red in debt to volunteer myself into slave labor, this I hope for my fellow student as well as myself to be a short adventure.
I will end with one of my favorite lines ever, "Don't point that gun at him, he's an unpaid intern," Steve Zissou from from Life Aquatic. |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> I have gone back and forth on this a lot myself. I get an email or two a week from someone saying they would love to assist me for free or work for me to learn, intern, etc, etc. I have a regular assistant that I use that has worked for me for the last 2-3 years and I pay her more than the going rate for assistants and she is fantastic. The kind of assistant money can't buy, hands me a the lens I need before I ask for it, puts lights were I want them without having to tell her, knows how I shoot, etc. So, generally, I email them back, thank them for looking at my work and tell them I will put them on my list should I ever need someone. I have a file full of people to go to should my regular person not be available. Once a month or so I need to go to this list and it's great to have access to people when you need someone last minute (which, it always is). When I hire someone this way, I pay them a going rate for assistants.
Then last year I got a cold call on a day that wasn't very busy from the cousin of a reporter I know in Seattle. She was a photography student and had some free time that summer and wanted to know if I had any internships. If she had emailed me I would have just send her the standard response, but this was different so I talked to her a bit.
At this point it became a business decision for me. I decided that if someone really wanted to work for free, that as a business owner, how could I not at least try it out. So I brought her on for 10-15 hours a week. And it worked out great. Great for me, I had someone to help out and great for her because she learned a ton. I would say she learned more in 3 months than she did in 2 years of school.
The thing with Interns is that they are getting more out of it than you are for sure. I spent a lot of time teaching her things about the studio, about the business, about lighting portraits and shooting different things, brought her on shoots that needed no assistant so she could shoot for herself and learn along the way, etc. It was nice to have someone to do the little office work like mailings and filing paperwork and things like that that are no fun.
So, after that I decided every summer I would take on an intern. I look as it as a win win. I win in two ways, by giving back by teaching someone about photography, while getting help at no cost and they win by getting to experience a lot of different kinds of photography and business that they would otherwise not be exposed to.
I would never expect someone to move to Portland for an unpaid internship. That is crazy. I also decided that I would pay the intern on shoots that warranted it and I try to be flexible with the schedule if they have a day job, etc.
I also think of it this way, I assist for friends all the time, for free a lot of the time just because it's fun and it's good to see how other people work. When I was younger I would jump all over the chance to work for a photographer, for free, to learn. I would assist you for free in a second and wouldn't feel bad about it because I know it would be worth it. So for students to work for me for free for 10-15 hours a week in the summer is worth it to them I think. I posted an ad on sports shooter and on my blog for an intern for this summer and I have had no less than 20 responses, I will be getting back to everyone in the coming days an interviewing them to find the right person, and will keep the rest of the people on my list for sure as well. |
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Armando Solares, Photographer
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Englewood | FL | USA | Posted: 1:59 PM on 04.29.08 |
->> Vincent,
I never went to photojournalism school. But I did work for the school newspaper for $75 a week in the early 90s. I wanted to pursue photojournalism as a career but I did not know how to go about doing it. Luckily for me my friend Alex Diaz, landed an internship at the Miami Herald. I had applied but I didn't even get my book looked at. He personally took my book to the Broward photo editor and he offered me an unpaid internship. At the time they were inundated with kids from the Art Institute of Fort Lauderdale doing free work. They didn't really need me but since I was free, what the hell. I did get reimbursed for mileage. Needless, to say I took this opportunity and I made it a very positive experience for myself. I worked my butt off and I listened and learned from great photographers, such as, Alan Freund, Mike Stocker, J.Albert Diaz, Walt Michot, Joe Rimkus Jr. among others. My unpaid internship lasted all of 3 weeks. After seeing how much work I was putting in then editor David Walters offered me freelance work instead. It paid $150 an assignment.
A year later I landed an intership at Disney. It paid $10,000 more than my first staff job at a newspaper.
I learned more during those 2 internships than I ever did in school, at least about photography and newspaper photojournalism.
Someone who is willing to work for free and shows a willingness to learn and then learns quickly and then becomes an asset will need to eventually be compensated for their work, eventhough working for you may be what makes this chap embark on a great career.
I hope that soon, I can begin to hire staff, more assistants and eventually interns. |
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