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Just updated could I get some feedback please
Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 9:22 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> Hey guys I just updated my page with pictures from a swim meet that my school had tonight. Could I get some feedback about my pictures because this is my first time shooting swimming. Thanks guys!!!!! |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 9:35 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> 2,3,4,6 - Out of Foucs
8 looks soft
6 & 9 Are the same mostly - cut #9
7 Is pretty good - try fixing the horizon a little more when you crop :)
I would see about trying to shoot from the side as well as overhead.
good luck,
Patrick |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 9:37 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> My mistake, #6 is the one to drop since its OOF. Keep #9 |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> They're all the same picture.
Not literally the same, but they're the same pose with the same lens with the same framing from the same angle.
Try getting higher for some. Try getting lower for others. Try lying down on the pool deck for the race that comes after the break...the surface of the water will be as flat as possible, and you can get good reflections. Try slowing down the shutter speed and panning for some shots. If you have a set of remote triggers, try doing something with a remote speedlight.
It's a good first stab, but from an editor's perspective, you need to mix up your photos a little more. |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 9:45 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> When I first looked, you had ten photos. Now you have six.
If you want a gallery critiqued, you should make it a hidden gallery, so we can all reference the same stuff for you. It's now impossible for people to see what Patrick was talking about, and to follow up on it. |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> If I get higher I will get further away from the pool. I was using a 70-200 2.8. Thats the only 2.8 lens I have. I do not have any remotes hat I could work with. I was standing on the pool deck when I shoot them. I will try laying down for some of them the next time. |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 9:49 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> Yeah sorry I took out the out of focus images |
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Derrick den Hollander, Photographer
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Melbourne | VIC | AUSTRALIA | Posted: 10:18 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> Swimming is a tricky sport to shoot - they don't appear like they were shot with the lens you specified. For backstroke, I think a closer crop works a little better - freestyle, a side on angle tends to work better. I've seen alot of shooters cover swimming from the end of the lane - but really, you need to move around the pool. Get the diving in picture, the side on picture, then the end lane picture. End of the race pictures can also look good.
The images did'nt look too sharp, at least not what I've been able to get at 2.8 - I'd also do a custom white balance for indoor venues. Not sure which camera body you were using, or if you had VR enabled on the lens, or your AF mode and metering. Water splashing can play havoc with your point of AF.
I also think, even though it is school sports, that captions need to be on the money. At the start of each race, shoot the race board - eg: Race #27, heat 2. You should be able to get a results sheet, so you know the athlete's names. Now I know it is only high school level, but if you go to the effort to present a gallery, you need to go to the effort of captioning properly - do the small jobs well, and you'll do the big ones well. Most editors, be they newspaper, magazine or agencies, want to see good captions. If you do it in the normal course of shooting and presenting online, then you'll be capable of doing it on an assignment.
I'm not saying caption everything you shoot - just what you show online. I try to caption everything in Photo Mechanic - who knows, Joe Thorpe might go on to win 5 Gold medals at the 2016 Olympics, and you may have a picture of him in his first win as a junior. By the time 2016 comes along, you'll have 50,000 images to try find the picture you have of him. If you've captioned and tagged your athletes, you can find that picture in minutes. If you have'nt it is a wasted opportunity. Captioning can be the most laborious and tedious of jobs to do at the end of a shoot, but it's not until months/years later you appreciate just how important it can be.
If you want to make a career out of covering High School sport, then it's no biggie. If you want to make a career out of photography, be it PJ work or sports work, then getting into benchmark workflow now will stand you in good stead in the long run.
The best exercise will be to look at what you have presented here now, and what you present in 6 months time. I'm pretty certain that taking on board critique, your images will improve considerably - which is what it's all about.
Good luck! |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:27 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> You can get high and shoot pans from there. You won't be needing the 2.8 aperture since you'll want a slower shutter speed, so try that next time. You don't need to worry about being incredibly tight, so feel free to back those photos off.
For good swimming photos, look up Heinz Kluetmeier or Donald Miralle. |
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Derrick den Hollander, Photographer
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Melbourne | VIC | AUSTRALIA | Posted: 10:49 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> I actually met and worked with Heinz at the FINA World Swims in 2007 where I was a Photo Manager - he had a Canon MkIII in March 2007 he'd been given to trial. I took some pictures of him working the pool deck in a Pool Photographers position at the Water Polo.
Lovely bloke. I sent him and his workmate the pictures, provided a good laugh. |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> I have looked at Donald's page a bunch of times and watxhed his remote videos on here and I love the remote swimming pictures he has done. If I had the money to do remotes and also the equipment I would try to do some of the stuff he does. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 11:14 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> Eric
Some good advice and let me reinforce one suggestion: Strobe the pool. Get some speedlights if you don't have have any or borrow some but lighting the pool or at least part of it will make all the difference in the world.
Go here: http://www.sportsshooter.com/thebigfish/hsswimming/
This was done with one strobe. You won't have to shoot wide open, and you'll produce images that *POP*. I'm no Heinz or Donald (mild understatement) but even at high school level, which is what these are, you want to produce professional results.
Good luck.
Michael |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:20 PM on 01.18.08 |
->> Really, don't worry about the remote stuff. Just look at the photos that are handheld above the surface, and look for techniques that you can play with.
Just search the Getty site for his images, and don't get into a mindset of "I just need one more piece of gear to make my photos sing." |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 01.18.08 |
| ->> eric, I seriously suggest listening to the advice from michael. all the gear in the world won't help you if you don't get the basics down first. |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 3:45 AM on 01.19.08 |
| ->> I don't have the money for strobes. I have one canon flash the 430EX and this was my second time shooting swimming so I'm trying to get the basics down for swimming. This is the rest of my equipment-Rebel XT body, 70-200 f/2.8, 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS, and sometimes I barrow a 20D from a photographer from my school. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 11:19 AM on 01.19.08 |
->> Eric,
By no means am I an expert at this, I only shot swim for two years in high school, but here it goes...
I believe what Michael was referring to was using your 430EX off camera, this can be done pretty cheap through a few items off of ebay - less than $40 I would think. Check out strobist.com for more details. I have not tried this myself, but as I say, look on strobist and their forums, they specialize in doing things good, but also cheaply :)
Either way, change up your position, shoot from the side for different strokes, see if there is any overhead position, etc. That can be done for free.
Don't forget to try and get creative as well, shoot some low shutter speed panning stuff, shoot from above and pan with the swimmers, that sort of thing, not having bigger class would not be as big a deal with these shots - but they can look cool.
McNamera's advice about not getting caught up in the gear is very important, I am not saying you have, but many students do - I have - about thinking of having that one more lens or flash. Work with what you have and buy more when you can by making $ from your work. [What ever happened with the SID?]
You are off to a good start. You can only get better.
Speaking of starts.... see if there might be a cool angle behind or to the side of one of those at the pool. |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 11:36 AM on 01.19.08 |
| ->> When you say overhead do you mean directly over the pool? |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 01.19.08 |
| ->> Both, A high angle and directly over the pool. Obviously the later can be much more difficult to get the OK on, maybe it is something you can do during a practice. |
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Ben Mackey, Photographer, Assistant
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Columbia | MD | USA | Posted: 12:15 PM on 01.19.08 |
->> Eric,
If you decide to use a flash, two tips. If you can, arrive early enough to talk to the officials and ensure they have no problems with your using a flash.
More importantly, don't fire any flash/strobe prior to the start of the race once the starter calls the swimmers to the blocks. Assuming the school has an electronic system for the starter, your flash will cause swimmers to false start.
What happens to you then depends on the folks running the meet. |
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Colter Ray, Student/Intern, Photographer
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San Marcos | TX | United States | Posted: 1:40 PM on 01.19.08 |
->> Eric,
I have to ask, Where are the reaction shots? Action shots are a dime a dozen in sports photography, but shots of swimmers after the race, or preparing for the race, or receiving medals, or anything are sometimes a lot more interesting. Also, no photos of swimmers diving in?
But on the flip side, swimming is one of the harder sports to cover IMO. As said earlier, combat the low light situation with some panning shots
OR an idea that just came to me right now, is to use a tripod and a long shutter speed at the starting block (swimmers are usually real still on the starting block and then near the end of your exposure you could have them diving in...
IDK, it may or may not work, I just woke up, and when I read about the panning, this idea popped into my head.
Good luck,
Colter Ray |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 6:27 PM on 01.19.08 |
| ->> During this meet there were no reaction shots. There were no close races. My school won the meet 129-68. I wanted to get some reaction shots witht he swimmer high fiving heir teammates but nothing like that happened. |
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Brian Westerholt, Photographer
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Kannapolis | NC | USA | Posted: 8:43 PM on 01.19.08 |
->> Eric,
Seems to me you started this thread asking for feedback, and a lot of people have taken the time to give you some wonderful suggestions. Yet instead of saying "Thanks - I'll give that a try the next time!", you seem to have an excuse as to why all of the advise won't work (no money, one lens, no react, etc.)
So, if you ask for feedback, don't expect it to always be "Great shot!" - take the advice that people have given you and tuck it away for future reference.
-Brian |
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Eric Linsley, Student/Intern
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 2:11 AM on 01.20.08 |
| ->> I take all the advice that people give me and tuck it away. The only reason I say I cant do the stuff they advise is so people know what I can do and mabe get more advice about what I can do rather then stuff I can't do. I'm not looking for great shot. I got what I was looking for and that is whys to make me a better photographer. Everything that anyone has ever told me I have used or going to use later on in my photography career. Like using off camera lighting to help make my photos pop. I will use that advice when I could have the ability to do off camera lighting. I appreciate everything that people tell me to help me improve because thats what I want to do is be a better photographer. |
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Charles Ludeke, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 01.20.08 |
->> I have to disagree with Colter. Swimming really isn't that hard to shoot. It's in a contained spot. There are four strokes. They're always the same. They don't change. Once you've done it before, you'll be able to do it again. It's easy to follow.
Don't always shoot from behind the blocks. You can shoot from the side of the pool. If you're lucky, you can shoot someone in the side lanes and get a great close-up.
(for example: http://i31.tinypic.com/2z3w5rs.jpg)
Notice the lane ropes... there's a pattern. Use the pattern for interesting images. You can also use the lines in swimming to go for something different.
Remember: not all photos need to be centered. This is the same with swimming. They're going in a direction, so let them lead the direction of your photo.
Get photos of the swimmer talking to their coach after their race. Get photos of the swimmers doing a cheer before the meet.
Don't always shoot horizontal either. You have the option of vertical as well... which works better for backstroke anyway.
Look at Al Bello's SS page. He always has great swimming photos.
But the main thing to remember with swimming: shoot from their level. Either lie down on the deck, or get on your knees. Don't shoot standing up unless you're trying to shoot high up for backstroke or something.
I've given you plenty of advice that doesn't have anything to do with spending money... or even better, these aren't something you can make an excuse for. Good luck.
Oh, and pay attention to what Brian is saying. If people notice that you don't seem very appreciative of their advice, they'll stop giving it. And I've seen you make threads before asking for feedback, so I'd make sure to be extra appreciative and thankful. |
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James Lee, Photographer
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Vincent | OH | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 01.20.08 |
| ->> Eric, I'm not a big sports shooter. Ironic, I know, since I'm a member of this forum. That said, the first thing I notice when looking at your collection of images, is that they don't tell me a story or show me something I don't already know. I think that should be in the forefront of any news shooters mind. Our job, as PhotoJOURNALISTS, is to first and foremost TELL THE STORY and ideally, show the viewer something they might not have seen otherwise. I can't say I've always been successful at that myself but it's something to be constantly working toward. For example, you say: "If I get higher I will get further away from the pool." OK - maybe then I'd get a chance to see how big the meet was, how many people were there, what the emotion was. Sometimes even the lack of emotion can tell us something. I remember having Rick Rickman as a coach at a workshop once and he told me to really get in touch with the event I was covering using all my senses. What does it sound like, smell like, feel like? Then to find a way to shoot it. Completely changed my approach. That's why the best sports shooters know so much about the sports they cover, so that they can make pertinent images. Any decent editor will always look for image variety: scene setters, detail, emotion... And I can tell you that, in this business, if you don't have what they are looking for, excuses count for absolutely nothing. OK, I'm off the box. Good luck and good shootin'. |
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