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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Unpaid Internships...not feeling it.
Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 11:39 PM on 07.13.03 |
->> Let me start by saying I have nothing but respect for the work of Joe McNally...
I'm just wondering what all of you feel about unpaid internships? For as much work that I did during my internships in my early days, and for as much work as our internships have done at my current newspaper, I can't imagine not getting paid. I think while we are helping this up and coming new talent with our experience and knowledge...we need to at least take care of the basic things such as food and rent for those few months that they are with us. I could get into a variety of details on this but I just want to get this thread started in a general sense...I have faith in you all that it will evolve on it's own. Cheers...Dan. P.S. I can't remember the last time I even heard of an unpaid internship. |
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Vincent Laforet, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 07.13.03 |
->> Dan - I guess it all depends. I myself would jump on the chance to intern with Joe McNally for free. Other photographers - probably not... I think it's all relative to your skill level - and your eagerness to learn. If Joe needs an assistant - I'm sure he won't hesitate to pay for one. I am guessing this internship is just that - someone who doesn't have the skills of an assistant - who wants to learn more about lighting etc. in a few days with Joe - than w/ a few grand spent on a week long seminar.
That's my opinion of course - and I absolutely WOULD do it for free to learn someone like Joe or Robert Seale etc...
Would I work for free at a newspaper internship? Depends on the paper of course... will the knowledge gained from talking to staff at that paper be equal to the long hours you put in? Depends on you, your skill level, and the quality of the staffers - and the time they have to teach you - ... |
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Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 12:03 AM on 07.14.03 |
| ->> I hear ya but...Most newspapers make a lot of money and can afford to throw a kid a few hundred dollars a week to pay the bills while they are living in some town that is new to them. Is the experience invaluable during their stay? Of course. I did notice that Joe is asking people to list their skills in things such as Photoshop, so I'm GUESSING he's not looking for someone who can't handle the tasks he will require of an assistant. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved the opportunity to work with him back in the day...and I think I might have done a decent job, but, I would have had to live on the streets to do it for nothing or have rich parents to flip the bill for me to live in some big city for the summer. I think this is going to get interesting...thanks for responding! Cheers...Dan. P.S. When the hell are we going to get you to the Wisconsin News Photographers Association convention? :0) |
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Denis Rochefort, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Barnegat | NJ | USA | Posted: 12:13 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> Dan-
I never thought I would take an unpaid internship, but i got the opportunity and because, and only because, it was near home and living/food wasn't an issue, i decided to take it. I wont get paid a salary, but i'll get college credit for 2 classes and i'll be working while my classmates will be in the classroom. personally I think its worth it. The paper will allow me freelance on the side and set which days i want to work and how many, so they will allow me to make some money which will help.
I just saw Joe McNally's internship, and its killing me that I cannot try for it. He has definately been my biggest photo idol for a long itme. If it wasnt for the fact that i already have an internship in the fall, it would be being able to live in New York with no income...so it wouldnt work out. I think that internship is meant for students in the area that can do it without much struggle with living. But like Vincent said, I'd be all over that internship if it were feasible. My unpaid internship was feasible and thats the only reason I took it.
Having said that, I am currently interning in NJ and it is paid. But really the money isnt any big deal. Its hard as hell sometimes, I work my ass off, but I'd stil do it for free. having an internship or 2 on a resume is priceless for students, and it will repay itself in the future, no doubt.
These are just my opinions, but after all, just the fact that Joe is willing to take a student on, is remarkable.
-Denis |
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Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 12:23 AM on 07.14.03 |
| ->> I agree the experience is priceless...One of my internships was at the Associated Press in New York City. I interned as a photo editor. It's never about the money...I would have done it for free too...if I could. I lived in CT with a friend. Rent was very cheap, but I had to pay for food, daily train ride etc... My main point is that while we are helping students advance their future careers, we need to at least help them survive during that time. Pretty basic...thanks for the response and good luck! Dan. |
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Jay Lee, Photographer
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Hendersonville | TN | USA | Posted: 12:26 AM on 07.14.03 |
| ->> Dan, I think we've already talked about this, unpaid internships offered by many newspapers these days... At the last thread, many of us said they had some unpaid internship experience before and they favored it... But, I think I've never done unpaid internships either at AFP and other newspapers... The reason is that I would NOT work for free... Of course, like Vincent said, you'll learn so much things when students working from the places where they're interning for free... Also, it depends on individuals... But, I believe, at least, they should pay a minimum rate guaranteed by a law to their interns... my 2 cents with the respect of the Joe McNally's work!!! >.~ |
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Robert Longhitano, Photographer
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North Wales | PA | USA | Posted: 12:40 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> Dan,
I don’t think you can blindly say "no" when you see an offer for an un-paid internship. You should first look at what that person has to offer. Like the comments above if I had the opportunity work and learn from a person such as Mr. McNally, I might have paid him (I’m just kidding). Another way to look at it is to compare what you will learn with Joe with what you will learn in college. To paraphrase a popular commercial:
A semester of a college education- $6000.00
An internship with Joe McNally-Priceless!
rob |
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Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 12:47 AM on 07.14.03 |
| ->> Maybe I should have asked why wouldn't an internship be a paid position. Certainly most (if not all) of the sources offering internships can afford to pay a young person's living expenses? Especially if they valued them. And by the way...I truly respect all of your opinions...whether I agree with them or not. Cheers...Dan. |
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Jay Westcott, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Woodbridge | VA | USA | Posted: 12:55 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> I am currently an intern for the Journal Newspapers, a D.C. suburb daily, i.e. Northern Virginia Journal, Montgomery Journal and Prince George's Journal. It is an unpaid internship, however I get college credit. I work two days a week, Mondays and Fridays. There are several factors I considered:
1) I'm 31 years old, going to school full-time to start a new career. I want to be armed with as much experience and information as I can heading into the shaky job market we have.
2) My wife and daughter rely on my income. I work at a camera shop 30 hours a week during school and this internship prevents me from having to take a leave of absence there (and risk losing benefits) because it is similar to my school schedule.
3) Paying internships in my area (AP, Wash. Post, Wash. Times) often require previous internship experience. I am a rising junior, so I have a chance for at least one more internship. This will give me an edge next year.
4) My school has an internship requirement in order to graduate. Now I only have to take 3 classes in the spring semester of my senior year.
I love my internship. I get treated like a staffer, I get assignments like other staffers (my first day I got the cover of the PG Journal and the Sports Page T-Back of the NoVa Journal). I have added some good images to my portfolio that I would otherwise not have gotten. I feel that I have a distinct advantage going into my junior year. |
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Denis Rochefort, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Barnegat | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:00 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> Dan- the reason why some arent paid- the corporatation. Unpaid internships are usually from the graciousness of good editors and DOP's that want to help out students. THey fight for money for an intern, but usually the managment declines propasals to pay interns. So they offer the next best thing. My future boss told me that they have tried for years to pay interns, but the corporate owners would lay down the cash, so the editors still wanted to give a student an opportunity.
-Denis |
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Denis Rochefort, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Barnegat | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:03 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> *wouldnt lay down the cash... typo, sorry.
and by corporation I am referring to whoever is at the top at a certain newspaper, whether its a private publisher, or huge media corporation or whoever is in charge of the money...
-Denis |
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Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 1:20 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> Denis,
Actually, I never thought of that. When our company dropped internships (we're hoping to get one back for the summer of 2004) they were dead in the water. We really miss having a year-round internship. It was fun to give back, and actually, three of our current staffers were former interns of ours! Cheers...Dan. |
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Dan Powers, Photographer
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Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 1:24 AM on 07.14.03 |
| ->> We currenty have an intern/scholarship winner this summer. Our paper matched the scholarship funding to the student. We are letting her use a pool Nikon D1h, 17-35, 80-200, SB-28 and all of the extras during her stay. It's shorter than the usual internship, but she is learning a lot. It's the first time we have participated in this type of program. Cheers...Dan. |
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Dianna Russell, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 1:40 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> My full-time job prevents me from being able to just take off for weeks at a time for an out-of-state internship. I would LOVE to be able to go to another city for awhile and learn/work. But that's the price (dues) non-traditional students pay.
My internship here is not paid but my degree program requires it and I get credit for the hours I work. I too have had some great assignments and have added to my portfolio shots that I never would have had w/o the internship opportunity. I have also been getting freelance work along with the internship assignments which is helping me save for more equipment.
Dianna |
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Noah Bryant, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Golden | CO | usa | Posted: 10:51 AM on 07.14.03 |
->> I interned for free for almost 3 years from when I was 15 years old till I was 18 years old. When I graduated high school I landed a full time position with a weekly newspaper within 5 months and a position as a chief photographer for a much larger weekly 1 year after that.
Everything, and I mean everything, I learned about photojournalism I learned from this internship so even though I wasn't being paid, the education and experience I gained was truely priceless.
My only complaint now is that I never had the oppurtunity to go to journalism school. |
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darrell miho, Photographer
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Temple City | CA | usa | Posted: 4:01 AM on 07.17.03 |
->> of course you're not "feeling" it any more. you're probably not a kid anymore. you may even have bills to pay and a family to support. you probably have responsibilities.
as a student, you have fewer of these...at least, most students have fewer responsibilities, fewer bills.
and an intern does get paid college credit. the whole point of an internship is to gain experience in exchange for college credits.
according to websters, an intern is: an advanced student or graduate in a professional field gaining surpervised practical experience.
a paid internship is just icing on the cake. students still have choices. they can still take a summer job flipping burgers...or they can gain practical experience in their field that will pay off down the road. |
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Brian Light, Photographer
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Pennsville | NJ | USA | Posted: 8:58 AM on 07.17.03 |
->> My thoughts are that unpaid internships are a thing from the past. As more and more programs and schools begin to require internships and the costs of the college programs continue to rise having outpaced inflation over the last 20 years a student just can't afford to not get paid no matter what is being exchanged. Sure the kid is getting college credits, but those credit still cost the students money. Plus many students I know have to work to provide money for books, supplies, food and living expenses all beyond the cost of just credits not to even mention the need to buy equipment.
From a business standpoint I also feel this contributes to attitudes that photographers don't get paid prevailing rates. I've seen newspapers bring in unpaid interns who are treated as nothing more than slaves after working a day or two with an established photographer they are just a slave shooting assignments on their own the rest of the time with no pay.
I really think it is great that some of the great pro's like to give students the chance to learn but in exchange they are also moving some of their cost burden to a student who is becoming more and more unable to support them.
I come from the business world and we paid our interns well. We also gave them meaningful assignments and the interns always commented on this as in other internships they were doing the most menial of work.
A couple questions for those who have unpaid interns:
1. Do you bill your customers for these assistants?
2. How many hours a week do you expect them? |
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Sean Connelley, Photographer
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Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 1:03 PM on 07.17.03 |
->> Dan- wish there was that pool equipment when I was there...
seriously though, I did an unpaid internship thingy while attending college and a couple months before going out to my first paid internship. It totally helped me get comfortable in that environment and i made contacts that have helped me today.
Would I of liked to have of got paid, hell yeahhhh! But in the end, it worked out.
Sometimes passion wins over common sense |
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