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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Leica
Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Pat Farrington, Photographer
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Ft. Collins | CO | USA | Posted: 12:21 PM on 09.18.07 |
->> "The M series was going digital. It was like Dylan going electric."
Thank you Walter. |
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Dave Kennedy, Photographer
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Danbury | CT | US | Posted: 12:23 PM on 09.18.07 |
| ->> Thanks Walter. |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 1:25 PM on 09.18.07 |
| ->> I recently moved to a new paper where I have gone into management. As I turned in my MkIIn's at my old paper, I realized the only camera I own anymore is an M6 with a 35mm lens on it. If I can only have one camera, that's not a bad way to go. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 3:15 PM on 09.18.07 |
| ->> I have always said if God came to me and said you get one camera and one lens it would be a leica m6 with a 35 apherical. Now that digital is here I would go m8 with a 28 summicron . |
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Rob Kerr, Photographer
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Bend | OR | US | Posted: 4:25 PM on 09.18.07 |
| ->> ...drool on my laptop, damn. i'll just mix some coffee in with it. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 09.18.07 |
->> I had been watching KEH and about to buy an M6 when I saw a great buy on a Contax G1 and a 45mm lens. I really like this.
I find myself shooting much more film lately, mostly medium format but there is going to be a lot more 35mm soon. I've posted one on my blog so far but there will be more. And tomorrow I have a series going in for a national magazine feature, most shot on Mamiya medium format. |
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John Lee, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 09.18.07 |
->> I recently was looking at a print portfolio of a young Canadian photographer who did two pretty substantial stories shot on Tri-X (400 speed black and white kodak film for those youngsters lurking in SS who don't know). He didn't even think about wanting to shoot it digitally. What balls! I loved it! His pictures were pretty damn nice as well.
Film is not dead. I've met lots of New York photo editors who don't care whether things are shot on film or digital, as long as the photos are good. And a few editors I've chatted with actually love it when film comes in for them to look at.
So go out and get that M6 sitting there collecting dust on eBay.
BTW, great article find Walter. Of course only The New Yorker could have written something as cool as that. |
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Jim Comeau, Student/Intern, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 10:33 PM on 09.18.07 |
| ->> Rolleiflex with Pan F is one of my favorite ways to shoot. Unfortunately I have never been able to own a Leica, but I borrowed one once and it was awesome. |
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Michael Myers, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 5:42 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> The article in the New Yorker is great! There's a world of difference between shooting with the M8 and a DSLR. The article reinforced my desire to get a digital Leica. With some help from Nick Henry at Roberts Imaging, I just got an M8.2 demo camera a few weeks ago.
The latest version of the M8 fixed most of the complaints people had about the camera. The biggest complaint, that it isn't a full-size sensor, may be fixed in a new model, the M9, that is rumored to be coming out next month.
Most of the time I use a D3, and in my opinion that's as good a camera as has ever been produced. It does everything I could ever want, and it's helped me do things that I used to find much more difficult. However, the Leica has such a different way of doing things - you have to think a lot more about what you're doing, and of course you've got to focus manually. I guess I'm back to doing things the way I did 50 years ago, with Contax, Nikon, and Leica RF(rangefinder) cameras, before the Nikon F changed everything.
Today, Leica lenses cost more than I could ever even contemplate, but I've found that Camera Quest sells Voigtlander lenses in M-mount for far less money that I ever expected. I guess I'm too used to prices from DSLRs.
What I like most about the camera, is it's small, light, doesn't stand out like a DSLR, and the image quality is excellent. My shoulder, neck, and back really appreciate the difference in weight! :-)
If anyone is interested in what's going on in the RF world, a good place for information is www.rangefinderforum.com, which has a whole forum dedicated to the M8. |
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Chris Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbia Falls | MT | USA | Posted: 6:47 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Wow! When I saw this post resurrected I thought Walter was back. Then I looked at the date.
Sigh. |
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Patrick Murphy-Racey, Photographer
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Powell | TN | USA | Posted: 10:30 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> I have three Voightlander lenses sitting in a drawer right now. I bought a used M8 off another SS member and took it on a trip to Rome. I have the 21mm f/4M, the 35mm f/1.4, and I want the 28mm f2M. But after the trip, I worked with the files and I've become so spoiled by the modern 4 generation Canon CMOS chips, that looking at dust on CCD was a drag. there was very little I could do to the images to get them to look the way I wanted... I kept all the glass and sold the M8. While I'm glad Leica is working on an M9, I'm certain I could not justify the cost for a new one. I keep hoping one of the Japanese companies like Contax or Zeiss will take advantage of the M mount and make us a decent box for under 3K with a full frame. |
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Michael Myers, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 11:45 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> I don't know enough yet to say much from personal experience, but from all the reading I've done from others, there are quite a few things that have a big influence on image quality from the M8. First, the camera software doesn't work nearly as well for JPG images as it does for RAW images. Second, the newer cameras, and especially the newer firmware makes a big difference. This helps minimize noise as well.
The M9 is still "vaporware", but a lot of people think it's coming soon. They think it will be full frame, but there's an explanation on many sites that says that while full-frame is easy (easier) with DSLR lenses that are located further away from the sensor, the existing Leica lenses are too close to the sensor. For film it's no problem, but with digital, the sensors need light hitting them at not too much of an angle. This is supposedly too difficult to do using the wide angle lenses.
So far, I really enjoy the M8. I need to re-learn things I was used to doing a lifetime ago though. I don't think it would be very good for sports images, but it's great for shooting people and landscapes. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 11:48 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> There are rumors of a zeiss full frame coming out next year on a new type sony cmos chip. I would love such a thing I sold my m8 which I shoot most of personal work on the second I heard Leica was coming out with an m9. You know how digital prices drop the second something new is announced. The rumor is m9 full frame 18 mp no uvir filters. The Zeiss rumor is a new version of the 25 mp chip. me I will buy the m9 and see about a second one or wait for the zeiss and have one of each. There is something special about working with a rangefinder slows up makes you think and does not intimadate people and keep them relaxed. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 9:11 AM on 08.19.09 |
->> David Seelig--
No flames, just my thoughts and observations:
Have you seen or heard anything, at all, from Leica AG about a M9 or even anything about another camera to follow the M8.2? If so, where?
I have no doubt that Leica is working on the next camera. There is probably a confidential 5 year plan in their CEO's office with more than one camera listed.
To the best of my knowledge the Leica dealers in Europe are working purely from speculation in taking deposits on a camera that might be called M9 and might be released on 9/09/09.
I doubt Leica would do anything to hurt the sales of the M8.2 until they had a solid, marketable next camera. Given the beta testing that wasn't thoroughly done with the original M8, I would hope the next Leica arrives without issues.
The M8.2 has its quirks. Leica was saddled with not only producing a camera with acceptable digital image quality, but also a camera compatible with its legacy of lenses going back about 80 years (remember how Canon FD mount users felt when the Canon EF autofocus mount was brought out) and strongly resembling the established M camera profile (remember when the M5 came out?). When Canon or Nikon wants to change a camera they have no such limitations, they simply slap their logo on the next product, tell all that it is better than its predecessor and voila, sales. Leica faithful are not so generous and Leica AG which has had some serious financial issues in the recent past, cannot afford a lemon. They got by after an early disaster with the initial M8 as every one had to be recalled for a circuit board replacement and the Leica CEO personally sent out thousands of apology letters.
If I shot a Leica M8.2 daily, I would not sell it just yet in anticipation of the next camera. From my experience there is nothing wrong with the M8.2, it is an exceptional digital Leica M camera. I am no longer a newspaper photog and as much as I like and respect the current Nikons, as well as some of their older lenses, my first photographic love was a Leica rangefinder. While some may say a camera is merely a box with a hole in it and the photographer creates the image, I have had enough experience with enough widely different cameras to appreciate that for me using rangefinders is different enough in a beneficial way to justify having them. I for one am not living in anticipation of the next one, just enjoying having the current offereing in my hands and at my eye. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 9:12 AM on 08.19.09 |
->> ADD ONE,
I, too, saw Walter's moniker and for a moment thought, can it be? |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 10:15 AM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> I shot a Leica m8 not the m8.2. Prices are dropping fast. I could not afford the 1000 dollar hit one takes on a digital camera the second the new one is announced.If I want to get the newer camera. I also need the lower light capabilites the new one will have.I also want full frame. I can make do with the canon 5d till then . |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 10:26 AM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> PS at the rate things are dropping I can get an m8.2 for not much more then what I got for my m8 but I will wait. |
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Michael Myers, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 2:31 PM on 08.19.09 |
->> There's lots of rumors about what the M9 "might" be like, and there are websites where people are taking pre-orders, but there is NOTHING yet from Leica about an M9, no pricing, no specifications, and no hints as to when it might become available.
There is something posted on rangefinderforum.com which sounds authentic. I will copy it over here, but I don't know if it's "real" or "vaporware". I guess it should be considered just a rumor for now, but I think it might be accurate. (You can find the discussion at rangefinderforum.com under the title "Leica's Future Plans (not speculation)")
(I hope I'm not going to upset anyone by copying this over, but of all the speculation I read, this sounds the closest to being something accurate...)
========================================================
Leica's Future Plans (not speculation)
Hi guys,
I don't really embroil myself in the current fad of speculation in what camera companies are planning.
However I came across this statement on the homepage of my local Leica dealer (Stephen Leica, Manchester, UK) and I though it may be of interest given the amount of discussion on the subject.
Apologies if this is old news, it's news to me, but as I said I don't follow these development very closely.
Translation of Leica Solms meeting with
The Leica Camera Forum and points clarified
by Stefan Daniel (Leica Product Manager)
Panasonic Cooperation
The Panasonic cooperation will continue
More compact cameras to come
Leica and Micro FourThirds
Leica is not going to offer MFT cameras
Leica may offer MFT lenses
MFT is and interesting system
Sensor size is a very limiting factor
Leica And The Forum
Leica is not going to run aits own forum on their website
Collaboration is seen as running well and constructive
Positive example is the first L-Camera TV show from the Leica production
Many Lecia employees are reading in this forum regularly, so that important contributions in the forum are reported immediately to the management
The forum provides many contribution to the product development
Stefan Daniel agrees to answer forum questions more often in the future
Leica As Lens Supplier for Other Camera Systems
Patents needed are only swapped inside of the Japanese camera industry
Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina who are seen as Japanese company
That way Zeiss receives the patents, Leica as German company does not
Leica's attempts to come to an agreement failed until now
Reverse engineering is legally too risky
Extending The Product Range
No Leica scanners are planned
The LCD projector range is continued but won't have interchangeable lenses
Maybe the customer service will offer to implement different lenses
R-System
R10 and Alternatives
There will be no digital SLR aka R10
But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution
how to use R lenses digitally
It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures
digitally in the near future
This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2
Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have
Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors
This would have been a solution for the existing customer base
but not for the new customers
Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out
There is no due date for the new solution
Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35mm full format
Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
DMR
The reasons for stopping the DMR were
Cooperation with Imacon now Hasselblad ended very abruptly
Sales figures were low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2)
The DMR firmware will have no updates.
M-System
M9
A LEICA M9 will come
Developing full format is technically very demanding because of the M lenses
We are one step further but still not there where we can announce the camera
M8 Upgrades
No more upgrade are planned
Dealers don't like upgrades as no additional sales are generated
The M8 upgrade constrained Leica M8.2 sales
Used cameras are entry level cameras thus attracting new customers to Leica
This would drop by future upgrade offers
Sensor Supplier
Kodak is prepared to Leica's needs, for example the special size of the S2 sensor
Other manufactures like Sony only offer a fixed range of sensors
Summarits / Entry Level Lenses
Summarits are true Leica lenses
The LEICA ELMAR-M f/3.8 24mm was already an extension of this line
More affordable Leica lenses are to come - perhaps not named Summarit
(reserved for f2.5 lenses)
Summilux 50mm sales are 100% above Summarit sales
Super Wide Lenses
Asked for super wide lenses:
Leica already has a 16mm - Leica can only offer shorter lenses
This is a topic we could work on...
18mm Finder Availability
18mm finder to come in June
The frame precision wasn't sufficient so therefore a rework was necessary
NOCTILUX Availability
NOCTILUX was announced for February
Production turned out to be more complex than assumed
NOCTILUX consists of 8 elements in 5 groups
These groups are first commented, then coated
This process had problems which are solved now
End of June, Beginning of July larger quantities will reach the market
S-System
Pilot lot is in production by now
Everything is on schedule
Price will be on the same level as the top cameras in the digital professional segment - like high end solutions by Hasselblad and Phase One
Body will be below 20,000 Euros
Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors
Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)
Total market are about 10,000 cameras per year
Leica is going for at least two digit market share |
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Andrew Miller, Photographer
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Somerville | NJ | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> Slightly OT: I facebooked Walter to let him know his sportsshooter legacy lives on... |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> That reminds me, I need to dust off my M2 to photograph my baby being born sometime in the next week! |
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Michael Myers, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 5:16 PM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> I just got my new lenses from CameraQuest today. Good service, and amazingly low prices. Everyone tells me the Voigtlander lenses perform very well. I'll find out soon enough. For anyone who remember the RF cameras from years ago, their web page has a gold mine of fascinating photos of equipment that is mostly a distant memory for me - but here they are, selling new gear to use with this old equipment. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 12:57 AM on 08.20.09 |
| ->> I have tried the voigt and quite frankly I do not like then contrast too low mechanics not good enough. the Zeiss m lenses on the other hand are much nicer optically although some are only okay mechanically. |
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Michael Myers, Photographer
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Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 11:05 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> I did a search last night, reading up on everything I could on the Voightlander 15mm Heliar (and also the 12mm). Most of the opinions I got to read were quite different from your experience, although many of them talked about vignetting if you don't stop the (already slow) lens down.
I figure on an M8, which has the 1.33 crop factor, this won't be as much of a problem as on a film camera.
One of the things I've been trying to learn, without much success, is whether these, and other lenses, are better or worse than the digital capability of the M8. If the lens is "sharper" than the capability of the camera to record, all is well. On the other hand, if the lens were to limit the kind of resolution one can get on this 10-meg camera, that would be a different story.
For me, the bottom line though was price. For a lens that I'm probably not going to be using all that often, spending $400 is a whole lot easier than spending $4000. The new Leica lenses are totally out of my price range, and Zeiss isn't too far behind.
I've still got my Leica lenses from 25 years ago, and I'm hoping that they'll be as good on the M8 as they were on the film cameras I used back then. So far, just as with my D3, the limit seems to be the resolution that the camera is capable of.
If someone knows of a good website that discusses this, please post the link. (I already know that I've got to shoot in DNG format if I want to get the resolution the camera body is capable of, not JPG, but I'm wondering if all of these lenses are "better" or "worse" than what the camera can do. I hope that made sense.... |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 08.20.09 |
| ->> The Zeiss 18 is a great lens you can find it used for around 800. I would try the newer voigt 15 over the older one rangefinder coupled. Look at rangefinderforum.com getdpi.com The zeiss 50 f2 is a great lens as is the 25 zeiss The 50 goes used for around 500 sometimes less the 25 abit more around 750 used. Good Luck David |
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