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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
How do you guys/gals find a market for pictures?
Jed Strahm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:48 AM on 06.12.07 |
->> I know this is probably like asking you guys to tip your cards while playing poker, but how do you shoot something on spec and hope to get paid? Where do you market your stuff?
I shoot stuff on assignment, but then I have tons of left over pictures, I just wondered if it's possible to make some extra coin off of these?
Thanks for any help. |
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Tom Sperduto, Photographer
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Edison | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:16 PM on 06.12.07 |
| ->> www.photoshelter.com |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 06.12.07 |
->> "I shoot stuff on assignment, but then I have tons of left over pictures, I just wondered if it's possible to make some extra coin off of these? '
Yes, it is. Depends on who you know, when you call them, your ability to market your work, your ability to look for and find hidden or new markets, or when all else fails having the ability to create a secondary use and generating income from that.
Do you have a vehicle for that will allow you to generate residual income like a well-design, well-built website that attracts hundreds of viewers a day?
The whole point of shooting and retaining your rights is so that you can continue to market the images and generate residual income from them. The next step is to find the most effective way to get your images on the screens of potential buyers for print sales or editors for licensing in your market for the images you have available.
Getting them captioned and online in a timely fashion is a start. Then you need to concentrate on marketing your site and generating traffic. |
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Jed Strahm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:09 PM on 06.12.07 |
->> Thanks for the feedback, I checked out the photoshelter once before, but it seemed pretty complicated. I just did a search and it seems that there are plenty of photog's that are getting paid through there. I always wondered if people were generating new business through photoshelter by people searching for a specific photo, without a photographer in mind. I'll spend a little time here in the next few weeks getting that set up. Thanks for the feedback.
Clark, Thanks for you motivation, I have a smugmug account that gets me by, but I admit, it leaves a little something to be desired. I need to shake a leg and get a great site going. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 5:44 PM on 06.12.07 |
->> Bigger question is often do you even have the rights to sell those images ?
If I got shoot an event I'm credentialed for, say the PGA tour, and I'm granted a credential for providing coverage for such and such outlet, typically I'm not going to be allowed to go off and sell those images to any other publications I want. I was allowed to take images for a specific purpose and specific purpose only.
Additionally your agreement with the outlet your shooting for who got you the credential in the first place is also in question. If so and so obtains my credentials, pays my airfare and lodging etc for me to cover an event, I may or may not be allowed to go off and sell those same images or outtakes to the competitor. |
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Mark Scheuern, Photographer
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Grand Blanc | MI | USA | Posted: 9:14 AM on 06.13.07 |
->> Jed,
It's not at all complicated. PhotoShelter has some excellent training material, including videos, and if you have a question or suggestion they're extremely helpful.
For those with PhotoShelter accounts, what forms of marketing have you found to be most useful? I'm seeing some traffic, presumably from Google searches and such, and have had some sales, but I'd like to do better. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:55 AM on 06.13.07 |
->> Jeff asks, "Bigger question is often do you even have the rights to sell those images ?"
98.999% of the time :) |
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Jed Strahm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 06.13.07 |
->> Jeff, I suppose your right, i'm definitely not an expert on this marketing thing and frankly just end up shooting the event and turn in my shots and forget about it, but I have been hearing a lot about residual sales of images and how people make more money on then residual than off of the initial gig.
So, being the capitolist that I am my mind has been cranking trying to find that angle in which to make a few dollars without doing any extra actual work. Most of my stuff is college, and prep, and I know there are some restrictions on the licensing of those images for commercial purposes, but what about editorial purposes, it seems to me that if you are able to market that just about anywhere as long as the media outlet that is obtaining the credentials doesn't mind.
I imagine there is two sides to this, I'm not trying to be shady, I work on a pretty small scale, but would like to maximize the profits from every event.
Thanks for your everyones advice so far. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:46 PM on 06.13.07 |
->> Clark, could you please share what all this 98.99% of the time includes ?
So your basically telling me that even though I am credentialed for say a NFL game, an NCAA basketball game etc, for a specific media outlet, 98.99% of the time I am free to sell those images on my own for any other editorial usage ?
I find that in stark contrast to the wording on the credentials themselves.
They seem to always state no secondary usage without the express written consent of the organization.
So in other words, lets say I am hired as a freelance shooter for a local daily because they need a photographer in my area to cover their teams away game.
They secure my credential and I shoot the game for them, we'll say its an NBA basketball game. I submit 10 or so shots to them after the game and thats all they need from me. Job done.
I've got 30 or 40 good "sellable" shots though sitting on my PC.
I am then free to go put those images on a personal page on a site like PhotoShelter and sell them privately or for editoral usage ? Basically I'm creating my own wire service.
That simply seems at odds with everything I've ever been told by the marketing departs, SID's, etc I've dealt with. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 6:03 PM on 06.13.07 |
->> "could you please share what all this 98.99% of the time includes"
Exactly as I stated everything but 1.01% of the time. Those times occur when I and a client have reached a mutually acceptable agreement whereby some or all of the rights have been transferred which is rarity.
";So your basically telling me that even though I am credentialed for say a NFL game, an NCAA basketball game etc, for a specific media outlet, 98.99% of the time I am free to sell those images on my own for any other editorial usage ? "
Sorry Jeff, I'm not telling you 'anything'. You are bound by YOUR agreement with the client and the credentialing body. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 6:15 PM on 06.13.07 |
->> "So in other words, lets say I am hired as a freelance shooter for a local daily . . . They secure my credential and I shoot the game for them, . . . I am then free to go put those images on a personal page on a site like PhotoShelter and sell them privately or for editoral usage ?"
No you cannot as this would be, as accurately explained by your contacts, secondary usage. In the scenerio you offered the daily, not you, was issued the credentialed. You are merely an assigned agent performing a task for the paper. |
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Preston Mack, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 6:19 PM on 06.13.07 |
->> We are talking about editorial useage. Photographers have been doing this for years. Read the bylines in ESPN or SI. There are quite a few photos that are re-licensed there.
What is NOT permitted is commercial licensing. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 6:30 PM on 06.13.07 |
->> Thanks for the feedback Clark, however I'm still a little confused by your figure of 98% being acceptable.
To my knowledge, most teams/leagues/schools etc do not credential individuals or freelancers. When they say "who are you shooting for" and you say either yourself or anyone that will buy the images, that usually does not fly.
Its been my experience that photogarphers rarely can seek credentials anymore, its always a request made by the editors of the outlet your shooting for.
So basically the way I see it, its probably 98% of sports images that you can NOT resale yourself, at least in terms of images that would have a market value, such as NCAA athletics, PGA, NFL, NBA etc.
Preston, I would imagine in most cases the images you are seeing in SI, ESPN etc are purchased through an agency, not the photographer.
When my stuff appears in those magazines its because they bought it from a wire service I shot it for. They never contacted me directly.
In some cases, certain agencies have exclusive deals as well. I've shot events and they could only sell them overseas because they did not have the right to sell domestically. |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 2:28 AM on 06.14.07 |
->> Preston- thanks so much for coming in here with some words of wisdom.
Jed- and everyone else here reading this thread- YES, it is OK for you to sell your stock images that you have fought so hard to keep the copyright for to EDITORIAL clients. This is secondary editorial sales and perfectly legal.
You see- this all goes back to the old days when you would get a PAID assignment from a given magazine (there used to be way more) to shoot a ballgame for them on chrome. They would pay your day rate and all your expenses (including meals, airfare, hotels, etc.). You would shoot and ship raw chrome to them. A few weeks later they would FEDEX you a box of your outtakes that you own the copyright to. Then you would do an edit and send the chromes to an old school stock agency like Focus on Sports, Duomo, Focus West or Allsport, etc. They would then sell your images and you would get a 50/50 split. You could also run your own stock agency like the successful members of our site did back in the day: Ron Vesely and Tom Dipace. These guys were kings 15-20 years ago selling the heck out of their stock chromes and keeping ALL OF THE MONEY. Those were the days of the wild west when you could sell commercial- not true today.
Fast forward to today and things are kinda similar yet very different. Of course most of us now shoot digital and get all our images back from the given publication that credentialed us and paid us to shoot for them. We are then able to send captioned digital files to our chosen stock agency to sell for us- some of which still pay a 50/50 split. The cool thing about today is due to wonderful technology like PhotoShelter we can also run our own stock business like Vesely and Dipace did- but do it all online.
I have my images with several agencies- but I also sell my own stock to EDITORIAL clients (remember- we cannot sell commercial) through my PhotoShelter archive. As of this minute I have 11,749 images captioned and searchable stock images in my online archive on my website (http://www.manginphotography.com) that are priced for sale to editorial clients.
I am so jacked up about this technology I am currently undergoing a huge project of scanning thousands of my old chromes that I own the copyright to dating back to my rookie year of 1987. I am currently uploading a batch of 90 scanned digital files to my archive that will be done uploading by tomorrow morning.
Because of this wonderful technology it is an exciting time to be a photographer and take control of your images- which you CAN sell to secondary editorial clients.
Best of luck to you Jed with your decision. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:18 AM on 06.14.07 |
->> "So basically the way I see it, its probably 98% of sports images that you can NOT resale yourself, at least in terms of images that would have a market value, such as NCAA athletics, PGA, NFL, NBA etc."
Jeff:
Basically, the way I see it, you have the wrong inaccurate perception of what I do and of the market for images as well. While pro and college sports images may command higher fees at the time of licensing, there are just as many opportunities to license prep, amateur and even youth league images as well if you know where to look, who to contact, and how to get your name in front of the decision makers.
I agree with Brad Mangin about it being an exciting time to be a photographer, but even more so it is an exciting time to be a content provider. Thanks to technology it is just as easy to create secondary editorial products yourself if you have the right skill set thus keeping the entire profit from that venture for yourself while waiting for additional revenue to be generated from your images as well. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:00 PM on 06.14.07 |
->> Thats quite the news to me Brad, very exciting indeed! Its an avenue I've always wished I could do with my images but always was told was not permissiable by marketing departments, assigning editors, SID's etc.
two quick questions though. 1) How does this work in this day and age with some rather exclusive deals ?
Case in point, NHL hockey. I was told by Icon Sports Media that they can only sell to the oversea's market but not domesically for those images. If I have my own photoshelter page, would I or would I not be bound to those same rules ? If I go throw a few hundred NHL images on there tommorow what rights do I have to sell ?
PGA Tour which again, correct me if I'm wrong, but thats another one with a good amount of restrictions in terms of even delayed editorial usage. At a paper I previously worked for we had some preview articles and the sports editor wanted to use some of last years images but the picture editor at the time said thats not allowed by the PGA to rerun old images. I don't know if thats changed or not. I'm free to go and put 3 year old images of Tiger or Phil on my own site and freely sell them for editorial usage or am I still bound by the same rules as any other wire service ?
Then the big question on top of all this deals with the usage of the images. If I'm running my own Photoshelter site and approving all rights, what liability do I have in how those images are used if they are used in a non editorial manner ?
As an example, lets say I've got my Photoshelter site going, I'm making some editorial sales off my outtakes, nothing huge but its still extra money in the bank for images I already have. I'm coasting alone great but then theres an image for some NCAA athlete I shot that was purchased from me and used in an illegal manner, something that counts as commerical use. Who's to blame ? The purchaser of the images/rights I'm sure, but given I was the one who sold the image/approved the rights, how does that affect me ?
Could I lose my credentials for that team, get "blacklisted", get my publication "blacklisted" or something along those lines ? Will I be thought of my the marketing folks as that guy who was trying to sell his photos on the side for commerical usage next time I apply or someone applies and lists my name as photographer ?
When my images are on a wire like WireImage, Icon etc I'm just the photographer. Really reduces my cut of the proceeds from a sale of course, painfully so at times lol. If hosting my own site though, am I not more than just the photographer ?
So yes, definatly exciting news for sure. However I simply can't belive that its as simple as a you can sell any image you want, to anyone you want as long as its not commerical. Though I certainly would like to see that be the case. |
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Alicia Wagner Calzada, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 4:42 PM on 06.14.07 |
->> I'm curious about photographers who upload images to a self-contained site, like Photo Shelter, etc., but also submit to their agencies. Do you send image X to the agency and post image Y on photo shelter? Or do you out x and y on both. My concern is that my agency can't make exclusivity deals if there are other avenues for the images to be sold.
So if you send separate images to each, how do you decide. I personally am currently content to have someone else deal with the buyer- it frees me up significantly to worry about pictures. But I am always open to the idea of making more money and increasing my licensing opportunities. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 8:18 PM on 06.14.07 |
->> Thats a very good question as well Alicia. I would have to guess it depends on your contact with the agencies you shoot for. Some may allow you to have images on several wires, others may want you to be exclusive with what you submit. Also would depend on who your shooting for in the first place and who has the rights to those images.
Its certainly a brave new world in regards to the options we have as photographers to market our images. I too have always been pretty happy simply letting the agency move the images. They no doubt get them across far more picture desk that I could ever achieve on my own, but at the same time, given the percent of the sale they retain, I'd only have to move half as much on my own.
Plus theres just that independant spirit in being totally in charge of your own images thats pretty cool.
Hopefully Brad will have a chance to expand a little about his experiences with PhotoShelter and licensing rules etc. |
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Vincent Johnson, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 8:39 PM on 06.14.07 |
->> "So basically the way I see it, its probably 98% of sports images that you can NOT resale yourself, at least in terms of images that would have a market value, such as NCAA athletics, PGA, NFL, NBA etc. "
This may or may not have been touch upon yet, but according to the lawyers that would come into a photo class about once a year as a guest speaker, to give us the low down on copyright stuff. From what I remember, you don't need to get permission from anybody once you've taken the image if the use if editorial. As long as you take the image legally.
If your employer, or yourself sells an image to ESPN or Sports Illustrated from the NCAA something or professional whatever, for editorial use that's fine.
The line gets gray, blurry or crossed over when you start selling to advertisers with out consent.
Personal reprints is a whole other story. |
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Jed Strahm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:15 AM on 06.15.07 |
->> Thanks again for everyone sharing their info about what they know on the topic.
Brad, Thanks for your input also, I NEED to get on the ball and get all my stock online. This summer hopefully will provide me with some time to get organized. I'm at a point in my career that I haven't really wasted too much time, so I need to take control of my images like you said.
Out of curiosity, do you register your images with a copyright office? I took a seminar about a year ago and the speaker suggested that you register your stuff every couple of months, do you actually register them or do you just add the copyright symbol and hope for the best like so many do?
I'm with Vincent, editorial use can't possibly be limited, if so how would anyone post pics of Britney's no-no spot?
The PGA might request that the images not be reposted from past tours, but i would imagine that if someone wanted to write an article about last years Open they would need a pic from last year? Maybe they just don't want someone to post last years pic and caption "from last years Open" in a piece about this years live action? Either way, I don't think (i'm also not a lawyer) they would have any legal ground to stand on, however, they might not credential the media outlet the next time around if you don't play by the rules.
Thanks everyone for sharing your knowledge here so us green photographers don't have to chew so hard on your ear on the sidelines. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:09 AM on 06.15.07 |
->> This is very exciting news. However I have (what I'm sure is a stupid) question. How does one price a photo to be competitive in the editorial market? Do you use FotoQuote? If not, how do you find out the going rate for editorial use?
Jody |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:36 PM on 06.15.07 |
->> Jody, I'm probably one of the least knowledgeable on this subject, but as I've been reading up on PhotoShelter, I noticed they mentioned FotoQuote pricing.
If did not say if this was built in, or only intergrated if you own the software already or what though. Sounds promising though. I'm sure of course your able to overide and set your own prices as well.
One question that comes to my mind still is how many buyers are really using PhotoShelter for images though ?
Seems that any buyer would first go to US Presswire, Getty, Icon, Newscom etc etc before PhotoShelter. For those who do have some experience with this, how have your images moved ? I realize of course its largely a case by case issue though. Sometimes it hardly seems worth the effort staying up til 3am writing captions to put 40 or 50 images on the main wires based on how few of them move and the market saturation these days. |
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Mark Scheuern, Photographer
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Grand Blanc | MI | USA | Posted: 4:30 PM on 06.15.07 |
->> Jody,
It's a good question. FotoQuote is now built into PhotoShelter. You can create pricing profiles and set them at the FotoQuote defaults or as a percentage of the FotoQuote prices, which can be greater or lesser than 100%, and do that by by usage and sales region. It's very nicely done and easy to manage. |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 4:59 PM on 06.15.07 |
->> Good afternoon everyone. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you here- but I have been super busy captioning and uploading scans of some cool old chromes (think Will Clark, Dennis Eckersley, Jose Canseco, Kirby Puckett, Michael Jordan, Nolan Ryan, etc.) to my PhotoShelter archive. I have also been editing several thousand chromes from my archive in preparation of getting them scanned for future uploads.
I have many things to say on this very important topic. First of all- YES- FotoQuote pricing is built into PhotoShelter and works beautifully with the system to price my images for EDITORIAL sales. All you need to do is go look at my archive and check it out. You can play photo buyer and price an image for fun to see how cool it all works.
Many people are making sales, getting assignment work, and taking control of their own archives using PhotoShelter. I consider myself an early adopter and I know that it takes years to build a brand and gain market share. I know that if I am ever going to be successful at selling my stock images as an independent photographer into the future, I need to start making the effort today. If enough photographers took this kind of initiative, it would give the big stock companies a lot to worry about.
Products and services like PhotoShelter exist today for good reason -- there is a need. But we need to start taking advantage of the service now, while we still can. I support what they are doing, and I support the notion that there is still a place for independent photographers. Not only am I taking steps to ensure I will be able to support myself into the future, I am also supporting a movement that is actually giving independent photographers a fighting chance.
There seems to be a notion that PhotoShelter is supposed to be a replacement for Getty, Corbis, etc., and that's not a practical assumption. When Getty takes as much as 70% of the sale, they can dump that money into marketing and sales. The select few photographers who are good enough to get their work into Getty and Corbis can benefit from that marketing and sales, but it's the photographers who are paying for it. PhotoShelter's fee is a tiny 10%. Do you really expect that they should be able to market and sell your work like Getty and Corbis for such a small amount?
Of course not. That responsibility is on you. YOU need to pay for the marketing and sale of your own work. This is the same if you sell via PhotoShelter, or Getty and Corbis. With PhotoShelter, the responsibility is largely on you. With Getty and Corbis, you pay them to do the marketing and sales for you.
PhotoShelter's system allows for a global search across all photographer archives, and that's a convenience that many photographers can benefit from. But let's not confuse that global search tool with a system like Getty and Corbis.
Before PhotoShelter, there was no practical way to run your own stock agency in your own website selling Rights-Managed images. I see PhotoShelter as a critical tool for my website, and take full responsibility for the marketing efforts behind driving traffic to my own website. PhotoShelter is there to handle all the complex archiving and Rights-Managed sales once these people arrive at my site.
Yes, I am fully aware that I benefit from the traffic I get just simply from having my images within PhotoShelter, but I don't depend on this alone to drive sales, or to get assignment work. It's just a part of my overall strategy.
I currently have stock images for sale with Sports Illustrated Picture Sales and Major League Baseball Photos (via Getty Images). But I do not stop there. This is what I do for a living. I am not going to lay on the couch for the next 40 years complaining about how I am getting screwed. I am going to do everything I can to maximize my profits based on the archive I have worked so hard to assemble.
Like I said earlier in this post- I am in the middle of a HUGE project where I am scanning, captioning and uploading thousands of my chromes that I own the copyright to going back to 1987. One of the cool things about being an older photographer is my archive has some very cool chromes of some great athletes like Joe Montana, Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Barry Bonds, Nolan Ryan and others. What I am doing is building for my future. Trust me when I tell you that it is not much fun sitting in my office captioning old chromes in Photo Mechanic- but at the end of a long day of typing it is VERY gratifying when I start the upload to PhotoShelter knowing that those are MY images that no one can EVER take away from me. Makes me proud. Makes me feel like I am taking control of my life by taking control of my archive.
Now I need to address some of Jeff's earlier questions. I do not do hockey so I do not know specifics about that sport other than Getty owns NHL Images so that is an entirely different situation. The PGA Tour tried to do some funny things in the past but they pulled back over protests, etc. and they cannot enforce editorial sale limitations. I know many people who cover the Tour (including all the Majors) who sell the heck out of their images to the editorial market on their own.
Finally- you cannot be so worried about somebody using an image of yours the wrong way. You need to realize that any legit licensee must have their images approved by the governing league's properties division and they will not try and sneak through an illegal image.
By the way- after my recent upload of 100 scans of old chromes this morning I now have 11,939 images searchable and priced for sale through my personal website. That is a number that will grow over the weekend as I shoot a little baseball in Oakland. That makes me happy. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:04 PM on 06.15.07 |
->> Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a complete post Brad. Definatly feel for you having to caption all those old chromes. Pains me to just do a few hundred from previous years much less the archive you've got piled up!
In a few years I can see the stock industry being a really different place if, or should I say once, concepts like PhotoShelter really start the ball rolling for the masses.
Its always exciting to be there on the edge of something new that affects our industry. I remember when I got my first digital DSLR, the Canon 1D at a time when a good majority where still shooting film. You couldn't help but to think how this technology you've got it your hands is really going to shake things up in years to come, which obviously it has.
On a related note, anyone have any guesses to how this would work with other images, such as concert pictures ? Shooting for a weekly arts/entertainment publication I shoot probably 2 shows a week so thats around 100 shows a year, so I've got a harddrive full of nothing but concert images I'd love a means to move.
However, I would have to guess its a bit of a different situation when you have to sign a photo agreement with specific usage outlined, correct ?
If I sign a contract that says that the images I take can and will only be used for editorial usage in said publication for a given period of time after the performance, it seems unlikely I would be able to move those otherwise.
Some artist, such as the Dixie Chicks had in the agreement that no images could be used for portfolio usage even without express consent.
Some, such as the rock band AFI had an agreement stating that they will retain sole copyright for any images taken and they are simply granting usage rights for the images I've taken. Crazyness I tell ya! (If anyone wants a copy of that agreement, i'll send it to you, a "fun" read to say the least)
Anyways, thats all no doubt getting a bit off track but I for one know I will be getting to work intergrating PhotoShelter into my own website and working on getting an archive going. |
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Bob Stanton, Photographer
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Palo Alto | CA | United States | Posted: 5:42 PM on 06.20.07 |
->> brad
thks so much for sharing--my first post in over a year and now i know why i keep paying the annual fee here.... |
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Darrell Walker, Photographer
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Smyrna (Atlanta) | GA | USA | Posted: 6:00 PM on 06.21.07 |
->> Thanks Brad for providing valuable insight on Photoshelter and Photography. Marketing is a main key to success in our craft.
D. Walker |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 6:08 PM on 06.21.07 |
->> Jeff Mills,
You might try contacting John Pyle over at Cal Sport Media, he could go over a few options on syndicating your archive of editorial images and offer any suggestions. |
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