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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Event shooters....Question?
Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 3:00 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> When doing event work my work flow is to photoshop then upload to shutterfly for online sales.
One of my partners wants to try uploading without photoshopping first. (other than a resizing) Then just photoshopping the images that are ordered.
I know we are loosing some sales due to the time it takes to PS 2-3K images each. I just wonder if the sales we do get are going to suffer because the customers are looking at uncropped and untoned shots. We are thinking about trying his idea for a small event to see what happens.
What do you guys do?
Thanks, Jeff |
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Ron Bernardo, Photographer
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Hamilton | ON | Canada | Posted: 3:32 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Hi Jeff,
I only upload unedited low resolution thumbnail images of my events. However, I placed a disclaimer for the buyers to see that they will get an edited & hi-resolution photo for their orders.
Here is mine: http://backprint.com/creativeambiance.
Thank you for your time. |
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Jeff Hinds, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 3:42 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> My advise is to shoot tighter so there is only a need to crop for a 5x7 or 8x10 print if needed. If the images only need a small color tweak customers will not even realize the difference, just make sure you white balance and exposures are fairly close. I guess there really would not be a way to track who is ordering based on what you described? Maybe offer to color correct & crop if requested, that's what I offer and it works just fine for me.
jh |
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Jeffery Patch, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Huntington Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 4:56 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Do you use photo mechanic? When browsing through your tagged/selected shots you could do a quick crop if it needs it. Mark them a color (key 1-0) to be able to sort easily. Export them as jpegs and you're set.
If you're displaying low-res shots at less than 500px wide or so, you shouldn't need to do much PP on them.
Sometimes I use this method and upload them to my photoshelter. Other times, when there is enough time, I'll go through and edit each one. When I browse my PhotoShelter gallery I can't tell the difference. |
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Jefferey TenHave, Photographer
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South Gillies | On | Canada | Posted: 5:37 PM on 03.31.07 |
| ->> I only process sold images. Web images are unprocessed and as mentioned a disclaimer specifies that each image will be corrected as needed when printed.. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 5:38 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Thanks all. Jeff H. I try to shoot tight. Not always a possibility. With the glass I have. Also I sometimes have a shooter working with me with some of my epuip.
Jeff P. I'm working getting the photomech going. Just switched to Mac so not all set up yet.
Jeff |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 5:43 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> PS'ing each (2-3k images) is a huge waste of time. You're only going to sell a very small fraction of the total # of images shot so that makes it even worse. Trust me when I tell you that your customers have no idea or appreciation for preproduction work...
Delane |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 6:04 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> We do onsite sales and there is no way to do that and be editing images. So we throw them all up on the server and customers look through our entire take. As a photographer, I only want to show off my best work and doing this goes against the grain. But as a business person, it makes total sense to do it that way so the photographer in me has learn to deal.
From eavesdropping on customers (and talking to them directly), I have found that most understand what you are doing and are fine looking through the whole take for the good ones as long as good ones significantly outnumber bad ones. This means having good photographers who understand how to set exposure and white balance.
There are a few customers who will tell you "everything" is out of focus and when you look you find there are awesome shots of their kid and the number of OOF shots are at a reasonable % for their sport. Some of them are just trying to soften you up for a discount, but others just don't understand. However, these people are far outnumbered by those who will go spend their money with another vendor if you don't get the shots up right away.
I also have had customers tell me not to delete ANYTHING (if the photographers have time, we have them chimp in the field to get rid of badly out of focus and embarrassing shots) because you "never know what a mom will want".
"You never know what a mom will want" has now become my chimping philosophy. :) |
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Michael Ciu, Photographer, Assistant
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Lorain | OH | USA | Posted: 6:23 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Hi Jeff,
I'm guess I should be hesitant to give advice here as you could be local competition, but what the hell.
We were editing everything before we uploaded for sales up until recently. In December we took advantage of the PrintRoom SS discount and joined with them. It has made our workflow much easier and has saved us hours of time editing. We now edit out the bad shots and upload everything else unedited through PrintRoom's software. Anytime there is an order we then edit and crop. We put a disclaimer on our site stating that photos will be color corrected and cropped as need when ordered. Everyone seems to like it and our sales have slighly increased. Hope that helps!
Mike |
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Jeff Hinds, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 6:33 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Jeff M...yeah, not always a possibility to shoot tight, depends on the sport...your SSpage work is perfect, keep that up!
One thought to add....edit in-camera as you go if you don't already. Every break or time-out just sort back through until you get to the last images you sorted during the last break. That way you don't upload the bad/ref-blocked/blurry images, if any. I even downlaod, rotate & upload to the web during halftime/intermission/etc. If you are printing onsite skip the rotate process.
I agree with Marie, people see the good images and just look over the mediocre ones....and yes, "you never know what mom will want" is a fact! No discounts onsite!
jh |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 7:06 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Well, it completely goes against the grain, but I guess we'll have to try the raw upload method. I have to admit part of the reason I resist is that now, when i upload the last images...I'm DONE. No more work on that event. But overall the way you all do it is much less work.
Thanks, Jeff |
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Erin Schrad, Photographer, Assistant
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Glen Allen | VA | United States | Posted: 8:53 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Jeff,
I guess I am in the minority here, but I edit my files before posting. Granted, I'm not doing this full-time like others here and so I'm not posting quite as many images, but I feel better posting edited images.
For one, it reflects better on me if I am NOT posting out-of-focus or under-exposed or uncropped photos. Additionally, that's fewer images for people to scroll through. I want them to feel like it is worth their while to scroll through all 300 or so images. If some are poor quality, I am going to lose them after the first 50 or so.
Secondly, by showing customers edited images, they know exactly what they are getting. I don't like showing people "rough drafts"... but that's just me.
So what I used I to do was use PhotoMechanic to narrow down to my selects and tag the ones that needed PS'ing (cropping, major exposure or color adjustment -- minor exposure correction isn't worth the time). Then I used Printroom's software to upload and it would just upload thumbs, so I didn't have to create those myself. I always kept originals just in case I had to go back and adjust a crop.
Now PhotoMechanic is a great program... really wonderful for quick viewing of images and tagging. BUT, if you don't already own it, I would recommend putting the $150 towards Adobe Lightroom instead ($200 for a limited time). Some may not care for it, but if you like posting edited images like I do, then it is the way to go. It makes quick work of making minor exposure/color corrections and cropping. You can make batch corrections through syncing and you can apply changes made to a previous image to the next (great for cropping sequences like pitching or batting). And it is non-destructive editing, so you can always go back if you need to without having to store duplicate images.
Right now it doesn't allow for uploading to photo services within the program, but I feel that is coming. In the meantime though, I export images down-sized to 2000x1333 (large enough for the largest print size I offer for the purposes of Smugmug's ordering process), saved at JPEG level 7 (or 70%). This keeps the file size down for uploading. Finally, I upload to Smugmug using PictureSync ($15 and better than Smugmug's web uploader). My Smugmug galleries are set up for proof-delayed shipping just in case. When someone order's an image, I have the opportunity to replace the image with a higher-quality one for printing if I want. But if I don't replace it before 7 business days are up, the order goes ahead and ships. This is good for since I am NOT doing this full-time. If I get busy or am out of town, an order is not held up indefinitely. (With Printroom I had to upload full-size images upon placement of an order since it only uploaded thumbs.)
Anyway, Lightroom has really sped up the editing process for me and I highly recommend it.
-Erin |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:18 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Jeff,
Our workflow consists of editing out the trash using photomechanic. Then PM to resize prior to uploading. Our biggest event to date has been about 26,000 images from a large baseball tourney, everything was edited and posted in 2-3 days. We don't waste time tweaking each image, just delete the junk and post the rest. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 11:30 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> Jeff, you have to chimp and get the crap off the card right then and there. If you are not getting sellable images on the field/court/whatever, and need ps or pm to make it sellable, then you need to work on your shooting techniques. You can not build your reputation, thus your business, by showing out of focus images, players to far away, or generally crappy images.
Keep in mind we are talking about event work, which means you need to get it right right now. You do not have time to "fix" images to make them attractive to customers. Gotta get it right in the camera, or just show online a few hours or days later. |
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Tanner Johnson, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Bowling Green | KY | USA | Posted: 11:57 PM on 03.31.07 |
->> I only edit out the really soft images that I would feel terrible selling.
Other than that they all go on as-is. Parents know that they will be edited before being sent out.
Also, unless you know the shot isn't even printable, DO NOT DELETE, most parents don't seem to care and will buy it. You might not be happy with it, but the parents will be. |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Staten Island | NY | USA | Posted: 1:41 AM on 04.01.07 |
->> Jeff,
Of course shooting tight perfectly cropped images is the ultimate goal but that's not realistic in this business especially when you are using other photographjers so lets talk reality rather than ridiculous. I have always had the same dilemna that you described. It is so time consuming to use Photoshop and a viewer like Photo Mechanic, Thumbs Plus or whatever to go through a large amount of files and yet you hate the thought of dumping unedited files in your online store.
Now this is just my opinion but I wholeheartedly agree with what you are feeling and thinking here. Throwing up a bunch of poorly cropped, slanted and out of focus shots due to time issues is a bad move. It shows your laziness and lack of professionalism. I know because I used to work for a guy where time was of the essence regarding our Photoreflect images. He'd rather the customer deal with the crappy images and have them sift through the garbage to get to the good photos. Now, lets hope there's not too much garbage in your unedited photos but you must be realistic. Put yourself in the shoes of the consumer. If I had to sift through 20-30% of junk to find images I liked in a group of several hundred images I might very well be turned off from buying at all and word gets around fast.
My opinion is that you MUST do some editing. Sure, it can be a speedy one but don't blow it off all together because you'll ruin your reputation in your local area. I personally recommend Adobe Photoshop Lightroom to help cut down the editing process. It will take a week or two of consistent use to get where you want to be comforrt wise with this program but then its wonderful. I also used a preview program and Photoshop to go through my event images but now, with Lightroom, the work is not aonly cut in half but its fun.
Grab Lightroom before the end of April when they raise the price from $199 to $299. Its a great program and will help reduce your workload. Best of luck. |
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Jeff Hinds, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 3:17 AM on 04.01.07 |
->> Sam nailed it. They want to see images asap, immediately following the game, before they leave if printing onsite. I just don't see how editing 26,000 images as Eric mentioned and taking 2-3 days to upload can be good for business? Don't you think people will check the web site, not see photos and never come back?
What I do: Shoot as tight as possible, chimp in-camera, and upload on site or as soon as I can get to an internet connection. I Don't waste the time color correcting & cropping...that can take valuable time.....time that customers could be spending placing orders.
Best advise: try all the options mentioned here at the next few events and see what works best for you. There really is no right or wrong way to do this. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:38 AM on 04.01.07 |
->> Jeff,
The 26,000 shots were taken on 7 fields over the course of a weekend, with multiple shooters. I have a larger tournament booked this summer that will cover 3 towns with 6(?) fields each. It was GREAT for business. By far the #1 most profitable event of the year. People did check the site, I don't know how many may have left frustrated, but I do know that I made several more bookings based on tourney directors that saw our work on the web and our on-site rig. Frankly I'm not sure what they would have been frustrated about. We're talking about dozens of games and each was listed separately. If your kid only played in one or two games then there's no need to look at all the other games unless you're just a baseball nut.
I have mixed feelings about doing heavy chimping while your trying to cover an event. I don't mind chimping to make sure that the exposure, focus, colors, are all where they belong, but if you have time at an event to be editing in camera then your missing action somewhere.
As far as shooting tight.... don't shoot yourself in the foot while you're doing it! We sell a bunch of different products. Remember that unlike newspaper and magazines, these shots will have to 'fit' the aspects of all the products. Having extra space to pad a poster or crop for a tee shirt is just as important. I hate having to ps in extra grass to fill out a poster because the original image won't crop to the proper proportions.
Jeff M.---> When you say that you are PS'ing those 2-3K images, are you simply culling the trash or are you doing a color correction, cropping, fixing levels etc? If all that you are doing is editing out the trash you should be able to get through the 3K in an hour and a half. I have a "gaming" keyboard that allows me to program macros into each key, I use that with PM... Fixing each image isn't practical as everyone here has told you. |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Staten Island | NY | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 04.01.07 |
->> "Sam nailed it. They want to see images asap"
I completely disagree. Put up junk, even a small percentage and you are creating a negative experience for the customer. When there have been events that my child has participated in and I look on the photographer's website for photos, the first thing I look for is the overall quality of the images and the website experience. If I encounter a bunch of out of focus or poorly framed images I lose confidence in the photographer and give up looking.
"Don't you think people will check the web site, not see photos and never come back?"
No, or at least I don't worry about them because the majority of those not willing to come back probably would not have made a purchase anyway and if they did it would likely be minimal. I would rather spend a little extra time to provide a lineup of quality images and lose a few $10 sales than put up a bunch of junk and put the "image" of a poorly run company with evidence of some unsatisfactory work into their heads. My extra work is likely going to keep customers on the site and thus in the end encourage the bigger sales. Granted, we cannot spend days and days editing but this is what we do and editing should be part of the workflow.
" try all the options mentioned here at the next few events and see what works best for you"
Now that is the correct advice because I have done just that in the past. After being meticulous and taking extra time to edit my work for the first two years of covering a local baseball league in my area I covered a tournament which included visiting teams that had never been on the local fields and probably would not be again for some time. As a result I wanted to get the games up quickly so I did little or no editing on the games. I lost count of how many of my regular local customers commented to me on the change in quality of the images. I was even told but one customer what an unpleasant experience it was to have to sift through unsaleable items to see the good ones and I'd say there was probably only 15% I would have tossed had I edited properly.
When you leave garbage in a group of photos you lower your appeal and the confidence customers have in your work. In my opinion the key is to find a smooth and fast workflow that will help you do at least a quick edit. For me that workflow is through Lightroom.
Good Luck. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 5:09 PM on 04.01.07 |
->> I think I have enought feed back to give the "post right away" method a try. I will continue to "cull " out the out of focus/ no faces/ just bad shoots. That's usually my first step. Doesn't take much time. I think I can easily do more than a 1000 an hour. Faster than my upload connection at any rate.
Thanks again everyone, Jeff
ps if anyone still wants to add their .02 or t/j feel free |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Staten Island | NY | USA | Posted: 11:53 PM on 04.01.07 |
| ->> If you can do a quick edit at a rate of 1000 images an hour then more power to you. I cannot say the same. Perhaps I'm overdoing it a bit when I edit but to each his own. I just won't put unsaleable shots on my site... period. With my attitude as it is I have built up a nice following in my area and am recognized as the best in this type of photography. That tells me that my not settling for second best is working to my advantage. Good Luck. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:02 PM on 04.02.07 |
| ->> I edit just about everything I put up as well. When I shoot mountain biking, I have to add the plate number to each image, so I might as well edit them. It's just part of my routine. Maybe I'm anal, but I can't stand the thought of putting up images that aren't ready to go. Besides, I like editing my images. It helps me to really see how I'm doing out there. :~) |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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San Carlos | CA | USA | Posted: 1:10 AM on 04.03.07 |
->> Jim- I think when Jeff wrote "more than a 1000 an hour" he was referring to culling and sorting the photos, not opening them up in a photo manipulation program.
Jeff- With the right software package, you should be able to move through A LOT more photos than 1000/hr culling, rotating, renaming, sorting, keywording, minor color corrections, and resizing. The event workflow program I use can process almost 3 times that number and add things to a shopping cart for onsite ordering :) Now in batch mode...it can handle nearly 5000 photos an hour, including downloading. Probably more once a few tweaks in logic are made.
Jody- I'm a tad anal like you and like to preview/cull my photos before they go out, but sometimes logistics just aren't on your side. 1 month ago I was down in AZ doing the tech for the AZ State Cheerleading Championships and we processed (downloaded, sorted, renamed, resized, archived, and made available forsale in a shopping cart) around 58,000 photos in less than 2 days (1-830pm Fri, 8am-930pm Sat). With the 3 hours of breaks during that time...3200 photos/hour. Yes, that's about 54 photos/minute! :o
There are tons of different ways to to event work. There are companies that still shoot film and print everything as a 5x7, there are companies that print tons of B&W contact sheets on a laser printer, there are companies that have 1 laptop running a slideshow, there are companies with 3-12 ordering stations, there's 1 company with 100+ ordering stations, and then there's the OGWC shooting and handing out cards and posting online later.
For online presentation, there are photographers that actually edit (in a photo manipulation program that is) every photo on spec before uploading, there are others that cull with minor corrections and upload resized versions of most of the take, then there are others who upload right from the camera.
So many different ways to do things, all are right and all are wrong, it just depends on your situation.
good luck
brian |
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Chris Halper, Photographer
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Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 11:03 AM on 04.03.07 |
->> I wish I knew more about the events you are shooting. I would not touch photos from a small time sports event, but I may correct the colour of the CEO giving a speech at a corporate gala.
It would also depend on price. I won’t retouch a photo if I am only selling them for $15.
My advice is “Ounce of Prevention Equals a Pound Of Cure.”
- Take Better Pictures. If you don't need to edit them...
- Shoot what sells: At the cost of stifling your creativity, you should have an idea of what people buy… so don’t shoot extra. |
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