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CBS acquires MaxPreps!
Todd Shurtleff, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 2:05 PM on 03.20.07 |
->> Todd,
Does this mean that Maxpreps photographers will actually be paid fairly for the content they provide to the website, as opposed to simply getting a cut of theoretical print sales and licensing fees in the future?
Your website boasts about a photographer's ability to earn 80% of print sales and download fees, yet the photographer's agreement states that "The sale of photographic products or commercial licensing of images displayed on the MaxPreps site is incidental to the mission of MaxPreps to inform the public about high school sports though its data, editorial content and images." Doesn't sound like you're too concerned about whether or not the photographer gets any kind of compensation if sales are "incidental" to the mission, a mission which appears to me to be delivering a high school audience to advertisers like adidas, T-Mobile and the National Guard.
When a photographer uploads photos to your website, you have received value then and there, but the only compensation that the photographer receives is entirely dependent on whether photos are sold (or NOT, as the case may be).
I hope now that CBS/CSTV owns Maxpreps, they will do the right thing and pay fairly for what it receives from it's contributors. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 8:48 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> People aren't usually shy about expressing their opinions on just about every post, yet there has yet to be a response to my comments...Curious. Is it company policy to ignore criticism?
However, there are 14 "Informative", 2 "Funny" and 1 "Huh" responses so far...Are there 14 MaxPreps shooters out there that are beginning to have some concerns?
Thom |
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John Howley, Photographer
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Circleville | OH | USA | Posted: 9:04 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> I don't have any affiliation with MaxPreps but I'll offer this comment - if the photographer knows there's no guarantee of compensation prior to adding the content and adds the content anyway, then what is the complaint?
The uploading photographer has agreed to display their pictures there in hopes of selling some images. It's a chance those photographers are willing to take. If one doesn't like the arrangement, then don't add images. It seems pretty simple to me. |
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Dave Kennedy, Photographer
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Danbury | CT | US | Posted: 10:01 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> It's incredibly naive to think they would now change the policy about paying. They bought the company as it was with a business model that works well obviously. So now why would CBS think "ok, now let's spend more money paying photographer who currently contribute to the site"?
Just because they have deep pockets it doesn't follow that they're willing to part with their money... the logic of what you're saying Thom makes no sense. Don't get me wrong I think people should be paid for their work at a level that is acceptable to them, but as John suggests, you know the terms going in to submitting work to them correct?
Yes the site does get value for just having the content on the site, they get the page hits which they can use to get advertising which does get them more value than the photographer if the photo doesn't get sold...but again you know that going in correct?
The lack of comments for or against is because this opens up the whole "don't do spec work" arguements again. People have been over and over this.
DaveK |
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Jeff Brown, Photographer
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Greenfield | MA | | Posted: 10:04 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Hey Thom,
I agree with you !!!
John does have a point. However if Max Preps only looks at the sale of prints as incidental and they are not marketing or highlighting the sale of prints than I would think most of their contributing photographers would stop posting images for free. I have spoken with a Max Prep shooter or two and they seem to like the system. Mabye it depends on how much the photographer markets the service themselves.
By the way Thom how was the BBall Tourney?
Jeff |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 10:13 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> John,
True enough...So then, MaxPreps depends on the ignorance of their photographers to achieve their business goals.
Not exactly a progressive business model...
I did get a response from one former MaxPreps shooter who said that the amount of effort that was required to acquire and upload the requested number of photos per game was not worth the miniscule amount of the monthly checks.
What is clear is that MaxPreps is making some kind of profit, because the venture capitalists that backed the startup, and now CBS, don't lay out their money to develop and acquire assets that don't have a favorable profit outlook...So what I'm saying is that they should consider increasing the compensation to those who help to make their business a success.
Try to imagine the MaxPreps site without photographs...
TK |
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Phillip Davies, Photographer
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Garden City | NY | US | Posted: 10:35 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Thom,
First off, I'm not affiliated with Maxpreps in any way. Like many event
photographers who are members of Sportsshooter, I guess you could say
that my site competes with them. That being said....
In regard to your comments, isn't the photographer aware of what they
are getting in compensation prior to signing up with Maxpreps? The
contract does not mention anything about rev share of ad revenue just print sales.
The decision to use Maxpreps is up to the individual photographer in
regard to what is fair compensation. You mentioned that you don't feel that the photographer receives immediate compensation, I disagree.
Maxpreps is gving them the software, the hardware, the bandwidth and the
traffic they have managed to build up over the past few years. Hopefully
this will result in sales. If not, the photographer can move on to some
other service, maybe one that does offer rev share of advertising...
Based on Alexa stats (http://tinyurl.com/2qm2lr), Maxpreps appears to
get quite a bit of very targeted traffic from viewers that I assume are
interested in Prep sports. The site also has a Google page rank of 6/10
which probably results in good placement in Google search result for
many of the High School sporting events listed in Maxpreps. I'm not
familiar with it, but I assume they have also built out a descent
technology package for upload, distribution and sales or no one would
be listing photos on their site.
Keeping in mind that each photographer that uses Maxpreps is
completely aware of what they signed up for and what they are getting in
return , I have a hard time with the idea that these photographers are
being exploited because Maxpreps won't share their ad revenue.
PhilD |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> I am new to the MaxPreps family, but not new to event photography or sports photography.
I also shoot for another on-line sports site, that does pay us for content, instead of photo sales.
Why did I join MaxPreps knowing they only pay for photo sales?
1) The parents of High School athletes know who MaxPreps is, and what they do. At least here in Colorado and at least for football and basketball. Many know to look on the MaxPreps website after an event when they see a MaxPreps photographer at a game. This name recognition is very valuable to me.
2) Most high schools are becoming more security savey, and limiting field access to accredited photographers only. As an independent, getting field access, especially for football games at the larger schools, is many times not possible. MaxPreps provides the credentials, and name recognition, to get that field access and I pretty much have free reign once field access is gained.
3) MaxPreps is VERY VERY picky with the photos they allow on their site. Some sites want quantity. MaxPreps demands quality. They want good shots, but also sharp, well composed, well cropped and sellable shots. This additionally benefits the photographer by showcasing only their best work from a game.
If I were to shoot these games as an independent (like I do other events), I would have to spend 10 times the amount of time on marketting during the game, instead of shooting. I would also have to spend more time processing photos for sale, shipping, etc. Now all I have to do is show up, plop down some MaxPreps cards at the ticket office (which they are happy to accept), wear a MaxPreps t-shirt, and focus on getting good action shots.
And, to be honest, the ultimate goal for me isn’t to make $75 bucks at a Lacrosse game from photo sales. It’s to have parents recognize me as a photographer, ask me about my business, take my business card, look at my website, and keep me in mind when it comes time for senior portraits. That’s where I intend on making my money on the high school sports angle. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 10:56 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Dave,
Why should they indeed? Because if they don't, they'll start losing significant numbers of shooters because the profit potential isn't realized. (I'll bet their photog turnover is pretty high. Heck, they've got their Director of Photography out in the field shooting)...then MaxPreps will end up farther from their stated objective of "Every Team, Every Game, Every Player". (I guess they could always change their slogan.)
It appears that there are many high schools that are not represented in photo galleries, and if people don't see their schools represented, then they'll lose interest in the site, and that's lost face time for the advertisers.
It goes like this...Lose shooters>Lose audience>lose advertisers>Lose $$$...Better to share some more money with the content providers now than lose it later.
TK |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 10:58 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Thom said "Not exactly a progressive business model..."
actually it's a GREAT business model, they receive FREE content that has allowed the owners to make a substantial profit. What could be more progressive than that?
With the increasing # OF GWC'S (Guys With Cameras) on the sideline, I doubt they will have a problem finding "ignorant" photographers looking to "get published".
WireImage did pretty much the same thing...get tons of shooters to provide content, then sell to Getty. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 11:02 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Bryan..with all the MaxPreps marketing (cards, t-shirts, website) going on, it's highly unlikely that many parents are going to make the leap to getting senior portraits from you.
You'd be much better served marketing YOUR business not theirs!!! |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 11:07 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> No offense Bryan, but couldn't you just plop down YOUR business cards at the ticket office?
Thom |
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William Jurasz, Photographer, Assistant
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Cedar Park | TX | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> "Not exactly a progressive business model..."
And your point is??? The point of a business model isn't to be "progressive". The point of a business model is to make a profit. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:27 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> "So then, MaxPreps depends on the ignorance of their photographers to achieve their business goals."
That kind of thinking would mean that stock photographers are ignorant as well???? hmmmmm....
Stock photo agencies have been operating this way for years. This is no more than a stock photo business model with the target market primarily parents and athletes along with a secondary market of editorial sales.
It was a good move for CBS because now they have an "inhouse" stock agency in a move that will either compete with Getty/Corbis or be sold to either them at higher price tag than what it was purchased for down the road. Who knows they could have long range plans to develop the business by credentialing photographers to cover pro and college events as well to compete with the two majors or to be sure they have content for internal usage at a far lower price tag than they would licensed through either. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:29 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Before we organize a lynch mobb for Todd Shurtleff (who I have never met or worked with/for), why don't we take a closer look at the language in the photographer's agreement:
"The sale of photographic products or commercial licensing of images displayed on the MaxPreps site is incidental to the mission of MaxPreps to inform the public about high school sports though its data, editorial content and images."
I have not done any work for MaxPreps, but it is likely that the above language is an effort to seperate Max Preps from the event/portrait companies that exist for the sole purpose of selling merchandise to students and parents. Schools often expect or in fact DEMAND a percentage of this sort of activity. Schools do not, however, charge a fee for local newspaper photographers and reporters to cover their games. The above language establishes MaxPreps as an editorial service that sells prints in addition to its primary purpose, similar to the print sales at many newspapers. This would also make it less likely for the school to refuse to allow the MaxPreps shooter access to the venue, particularly if the school in question has an exclusive arrangement with a yearbook photography company, etc.
As far as print sales are concerned, Max Preps taking a 20% cut of sales seems pretty reasonable when you consider the fact that the photographer would not have to host their own website, maintain a credit card merchant account, collect the money, make the prints, package the prints, and ship the prints.
Any photographer shooting for MaxPreps could just as easily set up their own PhotoReflect (or similar) account, upload photos, and hope that enough people will go to the site and buy the photos, and yet we are not questioning the ethics and motives of independent photographers who do this sort of thing every day.
With that in mind, what has Todd Shurtleff and MaxPreps done that is so offensive? Sure it would be "progressive" of Todd and Company to pay every photographer $2,700 per game but it would also be profoundly stupid. MaxPreps has to make money in order to exist, and like any other business the fastest way OUT of business is to pay everyone so much money that there isn't enough left over to pay the bills. As such "progressive" = bankruptcy.
There are small town newspapers whose shooters are giving up their copyright for $8.27 per hour (after taxes) and are probably shooting some of the same events as MaxPreps photographers. I find it interesting that there is less public outrage over this, as it is a widespread practice and it devalues photography in general. Funny that MaxPreps should incur the wrath of The People and small budget newspapers should not when neither is paying the $10,000 day rate to which so many seem entitled.
Would someone please explain how one "bad deal" is any better or worse than the other? |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 03.21.07 |
| ->> Well said, Mr. Granse. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Micheal,
Another sure way out of business is to neglect to properly value the people on the bottom of the pyramid. In ANY business...
Thom |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> Excellent points Michael Granse.
Having spent countless hours, processing tens of thousands of photos for print, stuffing mailers, writing addresses and shipping, I am happy to pay 20% of sales for MaxPreps to take care of most of that themselves.
Even Photoreflect takes 18% off the top of orders, and they provide no support, marketing or quality control.
And yes, I am taking control on my own for my senior portrait business. I have a marketing push coming in May. However, any tie to my sports work, or recognition from shooting games that their sons and daughter participated in, certainly can’t hurt. Through recognition of another company I shoot sports for, I have parents and students recognize me all the time at the store, the mall, etc. I give away lots of business cards each week, and get emails and calls in return. Either they recognize me from the games, or it's my devilish good looks. :) So, I don’t think it’s time wasted at all.
And Michael also made a great point about small town newspapers covering the same events, for a low hourly rate. After talking to several shooters from local papers at my events last year, I know this is true in the case of my community. |
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Jacquie Beik, Photographer
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Chico | CA | USA | Posted: 11:52 AM on 03.21.07 |
->> I shoot for Maxpreps, I would like to think that the parents are there just because of me and my photographic ability. However that is not entirely true. Maxpreps has a lot more to offer than just pictures. I can’t tell you how many times I am at a game shooting a team I have never covered before and the parents tell me they love the site and are on it all the time.
Maxpreps also offers a place for coaches to up load stats. The news paper people use this site often, and the parents and players go there all the time to see where their team and the individual is ranked.
Thom I don’t understand why you seem to be so offended by the site. I am not a full time photographer so maybe you know more then me. Shooting for Maxpreps has been nothing but a positive experience for me. The schools, players and parents all love Maxpreps for many reasons. The more games I go to the more money I make. The interface for uploading is simple, and if you have a strong work flow the amount of time you spend per game can be minimal.
I don’t think there is a big turn over in the regular shooters. From what I see the only turnover in photographers is because their work does not make it to the site for quality reasons. I am sure there are other reasons too, I am not on the inside so I don't know. I do know the regular shoots are always there and always posting pictures.
I don’t understand your comment about the director of photography out in the field shooting, what is wrong with that. You say that like it is a bad thing, I don’t understand your point there. If you are a director of photography does that mean you can’t shoot anymore? Todd loves to shoot and probably wishes he could do it more.
I am excited about CBS and Maxpreps. I think it can only mean positive things for the photographers that shoot for Maxpreps. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Tell me Clark,
If MaxPreps "stock agency" is so attractive...are you shooting for them? ;)
Thom |
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Landon Finch, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 12:14 PM on 03.21.07 |
| ->> Have any of you MaxPreps shooters figured out what you're making on an hourly basis, including travel to and from, prep time, shooting, workflow, and uploading? Feel free to email me privately if you don't want to post it on the boards. |
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Dave Kennedy, Photographer
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Danbury | CT | US | Posted: 12:15 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> "It goes like this...Lose shooters>Lose audience>lose advertisers>Lose $$$...Better to share some more money with the content providers now than lose it later."
Again, completely naive.... there are plenty of photographers out there that have no problem giving away their photos in the hopes of making a profit sometime in the future derived from the exposure of being on a website like MaxPreps. And I've got no problem with MaxPreps and people doing whatever they feel is right for them. If you don't like the terms of a contract DON'T SIGN IT.
Did AP or the NYTimes lose photographers when they changed their contract...yes...did photographers line up around the block to do work for those entities again? YES THEY DID and they continue to. And if they feel it's right for them then do it! If not, DON'T!
And you seem to be confusing what a progressive business model is with what you feel is an ethical business model. "Progressive" is in the eye of the beholder...or more accurately, the stockholder.
And again you're showing your lack of understanding of how the photography world works. Many, many top level editors shoot whether it's for the AP or Reuters and yes MaxPreps.
I think this is a great deal for MaxPreps (of which my paper does contribute rosters online but not photos). More exposure for this company is a good thing for them. It was inevitable that HS sports would have this type of wire service eventually. MaxPreps is a very well done site that offers a lot to the viewers. And a good deal to photog's that sell images via their site.
DaveK |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 12:32 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Dave,
No need to yell...
Thom |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:10 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> "If MaxPreps "stock agency" is so attractive...are you shooting for them? ;) "
hey Thom: Never have, prob neva will ;-) But someday I'm hoping to purchase the division from CBS after I buyout Corbis ;-) |
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Christopher Trim, Photographer
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Elk Grove | CA | USA | Posted: 1:37 PM on 03.21.07 |
| ->> It would be interesting to know what someone working of "MaxPreps" makes (either hourly or monthly). Anyone know? |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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San Carlos | CA | USA | Posted: 1:44 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Maxpreps only taking 20% of sales? where did this number come about? That is not the normal photo sale, or it hasn't been in the last 4 years.
95% of the photo sales, that I've seen on maxpreps, fall into the 50% NET sale of the photograph.
The other main issue with maxpreps is their misinterpretation of their own photographer contract regarding what you can do with your images:
"Member is the sole and exclusive owner of all images supplied to MaxPreps and of the right to license such images.
Upon submission of images to MaxPreps, Member agrees not to merchandise or sell photographic products to consumers for a period of fourteen (14) days from the date of the event in which said images were taken. "
The problem is if I shoot 300 photos at a game, then upload say 50 to maxpreps, I'm being dictated what I can/cannot do with the other 250 photos that I own the copyright to? maxpreps is under the impression that if you submit photos to them from a game, that you are banned from selling the other 250 photos from the same game for the 14 day period, not just the 50 photos that you uploaded.
I also love the one-sided breach of contract things :) But that's another thread for the lawyers/arbitrators, proceedings will start shortly. |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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San Carlos | CA | USA | Posted: 1:56 PM on 03.21.07 |
| ->> On a sidenote and more related to the original post, I wish maxpreps all the best with the buying by CBS. It'll be interesting to see what changes are made. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 2:20 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> It is not unusual for a stock agency to require that the photographer not do any outside marketing of the images on their own, particularly when the stock agency is responsible for arranging for credentials. It is not unusual for this "embargo period" to be a year or longer, so a 14 day period is pretty short by comparisson.
If a stock agency has gone through the effort of making the calls and arranging for the credentials in addition to providing the marketing infrastructure to sell the images and is actively working to promote those images, then I do not think that it is unreasonable for them to feel entitled to some measure of exclusivity on the sales, particulary when the photographer (not the agency) is the owner of the copyright.
From my own experience, I can say that 50% of the procedes from a larger audience has often been better than 100% of what I could have done on my own. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 2:25 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> I cover a lot of prep sports on contract for clients through the course of my shooting, so I am already being paid to be at the events, as I retain all copyrights to my images I post them on Max Preps, sales are pretty darn good.
I have noticed a trend in how the parents buy the images, most of the sales that I see are not immediate they occur as each team is eliminated from the playoffs and after the season is over. basketball is now finishing up here in California so I expect a large influx of orders to start coming in.
Max Preps has been moving my prep images since they started business, they are widely known here in southern california, you can talk to almost any high school kid around and they know what Max Preps is.
Since everyone is so interested in money I have had single event sales in excess of $1000.00 dollars and as high as $1300.00 from one single event. a few hundred dollars from each event is probably average, this in addition to what I am being paid to be there already. I know that I have a higher average because of the way I shoot, strobes, pro glass etc...
You need to remember that photos are luxury item and that no one needs to have your images, they will buy them if and when they can afford them, I have been having sales from games from last year recently as well.
Max Preps does not assign anyone to cover a game, you cover what you want, whichever sport that they handle and whenever you want to cover it.and post it to their site when ever you get to it, of course you want to get it up right away to sell, but no one is calling you breathing down our neck because they don't even know you were at the game!!
If they were assigning games to photographers, I could see where you would ask for compensation in advance.
I look forward to what CBS brings to the table with the the buyout.
I do hope that Max Preps and CBS remember those of us that were contributing from the begining, as our images helped in the success of the site, I don't expect it, but it would be nice. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Regarding:
"Member agrees not to merchandise or sell photographic products to consumers for a period of fourteen (14) days from the date of the event in which said images were taken."
I was very recently told by MaxPreps (today actually) that this 14 day waiting period is coming to an end, and that photos can be posted on the photographers own site right away. |
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Phillip Davies, Photographer
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Garden City | NY | US | Posted: 3:24 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Bryan,
That's really interesting. That 14 day waiting period and the commission were the two obstacles that kept me from uploading to them. I'm still not happy about the commission, but I might test it with one or two events to see if I pick up any additional sales.
PhilD |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Here is the blurb from a MaxPrep'er regarding the 2 week waiting period:
"Also you can post
the images you take to your own site right away if you want, no more waiting 2
weeks"
I also saw yesterday that there is a new 'bio' page. Apparently, you will have the ability to provide a bio, a photo and website links, to help promote your business to MaxPrep viewers. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:54 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> So when you add it all up, MaxPreps is a shoot what you want when you want stock organization that allows its contributors to keep their copyright, sell photos from their own website, surrender only 20% of print sales, share a 50% split on editorial sales, provide significant web traffic, and do all of this in a sleek website that looks like a high school version of ESPN.com ®.
The villagers when confronted with the fact that the prisoner was not, in fact, a witch looked profoundly confused and disappointed until one of them gleefully exclaimed "BURN HER ANYWAY!!!!"
I have to give Todd Shurtleff some credit for having remained "above the fray" on this. It can not be easy to be attacked in a public forum and not respond. Pure class. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 4:12 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> I am a bit puzzled by the negative views expressed by Mr. Kendall, and my reasons have already been addressed by others. But those views are not unique to him; there seems to be a general sense of entitlement among a percentage of photographers who take great offense when anyone other than themselves profits from the images they create. This mentality is incredibly naive, as all of the entities that "take their cut" provide services and/or benefits in return. Depending on who the entity is (those dastardly bloodsuckers!) the photo receives marketing, post processing, online storage/archival, medical and life insurance, equipment, mileage reimburse, yadda-freakin-yadda.
There is really only one simple question: assuming you know what you are giving up (% of revenue, copyright, embargo period), does what you receive in return qualify as a quid pro quo? That is something that only the participating parties can determine, and it is highly offensive to those of us who do such work to see the providers of said services criticized so highly. Whether you are an event photograper, staffer at a newspaper, or work with a stock agency, all demand something in return. The demands are different, but so are the services and benefits provided; none quality and Satan incarnate to me. At the end of the day, if you are receiving what you believe to be just compensation for your efforts, and are able to feed your family, enjoy a decent quality of life, and do something you love, what's there to bitch about?
Dave Kennedy: Perhaps you need to "yell" a little louder. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 5:09 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Micheal,
Actually it might be more beneficial to the discussion, (or "classy" if you'd rather) for Todd to respond to the original concerns I expressed in the second post.
Clark/Micheal,
MaxPreps is not a stock agency...If that were true, then the PRIMARY mission would be to license images for editorial and commercial use. According to their own photographer's agreement, sales are officially an "incidental" byproduct of their activities. Find me a stock agency whose sales motive is secondary to anything else and I'll show you a failed agency. As I said in my original post, MaxPreps gets the content they need to perpetuate their operation the instant a photographer uploads a gallery, and the only way the photographer gets ANY compensation is if the parents of the kids in the pictures a) have enough disposable income to even consider buying photos, and b) are in a buying mood. I'm sure many viewers are happy simply looking at the photos online without feeling the need to actually purchase hard copies. As far as editorial/commercial licensing, you'd better hope that the next Kevin Durant or Greg Oden are honing their game at a high school in your neighborhood, or the likelihood you will ever see money from that kind of licensing is slim.
Dave,
Why shouldn't photographers take "great offense" when someone besides them is profiting more from their efforts than they are? |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Highlands Ranch | Co | USA | Posted: 5:42 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Wow! I know that last question was directed at Dave. But are you kidding me?
So the ABC Camera man should get a major cut of TV add sales at the super bowl?
The SI photographer should get a large chunk of profits from the sales of an issue he/she has work in?
What about the investors putting their bucks and butts on the line to support a business?
What about the sponsors that invest large amounts towards advertising in a magazine? I’ll be they would have an issue with that statement.
What about the full time employees whose livelihood depends on the success of the business. Their full time investment is a major commitment. Much more than my diversified investment of 3 hours to shoot a game, and process the photos.
I am not for a minute trying to diminish the importance of the photography body of work on a site such as MaxPreps. But shouldn’t it ALL be put into perspective?
As with any business, each step of the process is (hopefully) value added towards the final result. And the compensation paid along the way is directly related to the supply and demand of that particular contribution, and the risk the contributor has taken.
I’ll bet the people that pounded the pavement for who knows how long, looking for investors in MaxPreps, and any other on-line or hard copy pub, would take serious issue with you discounting their effort, and how it relates to the success of their venture.
In fact, I have a hard time understanding why this is even an issue. This is ALL driven by supply and demand, as is our entire economy. If Todd wasn’t getting the photos he needed to build his business, he would have to figure out another model. But, apparently, it is working.
I certainly don't feel the need for a baby sitter to tell me I am being taken advantage of. |
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Phillip Davies, Photographer
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 7:08 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> OK, Bryan, I won't tell you that you are being taken advantage of...
Thom |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer
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Canoga Park | CA | Usa | Posted: 7:35 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> WOW, Todd are you still there? I understand your reluctance to respond however.
So here goes. I don't pretend to know all of the ends and outs of the Maxpreps story. But from my end I have not had too many bad experiences. Their have been some issues with some of the images that I've submitted that were not accepted, but I'm not perfect and sometimes get in a hurry when processing and uploading to the Maxpreps website. Todd's a great guy and is willing to help you with whatever problem you may have regarding the website or photography issues. I read the contract and I've known what I was getting into from day one. I take exception to being called "ignorant". The Maxpreps model works fine for me because I'm not trying to make a living completely on just the sales from Maxpreps. Anyone who is will most likely be terribly disappointed. I use Maxpreps as a way to pay for some equipment that I need and repairs. I only shoot for Maxpreps when I have open days with no other work to do. So for me it works, for others it may not. I have never felt cheated at any time. If you don't like the terms then don't sign on. I know the advertisers pay a lot of money for space on the web site and most of the eyes going to that site are brought there by the photography. It's up to each individual to understand their circumstance to determine if they should make the deal. |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 8:42 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Rick,
The word was IGNORANCE, meaning "lack of knowledge or information", in this case specifically regarding the profit realities of being a MaxPreps photographer.
One can be ignorant of something in particular without being ignorant in general.
It could be time for a few deep breaths and a group hug...;)
Thom |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:14 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Thom wrote: "When a photographer uploads photos to your website, you have received value then and there, but the only compensation that the photographer receives is entirely dependent on whether photos are sold (or NOT, as the case may be)."
Not true. The value received by the photographer is exposure through a medium that generates more traffic than what one or two shooters and the potential to enjoy a greater return on their investment, in this case time, than had they attempted to carry out the same task on their own. I see, and it appears others as well, the value received by the photographer, in addition to a much broader exposure, the benefit of not having to do code slinging to create the viewing and delivery system, pay for a server and admin costs, don't have to handle the fulfillment tasks, negotiate merchant fees for credit and debit card payments, related accounting tasks, marketing to editorial clients, and don't have to deal with administrative tasks so the shooter can concentrate on what they want to do - shoot pics.
Thom wrote: "MaxPreps is not a stock agency...If that were true, then the PRIMARY mission would be to license images for editorial and commercial use."
Stock agencies license images for not only editorial and commercial use, but for private use as well. Which is what MP does. My perception, and I'm willing to be wrong and change, is they are in the business to license images. Just like any other stock agency or for that matter photo wire service, a fact that is indisputable.
Just because the images from a group of photographers are displayed on the web in one location make and encourage licensing by private individuals makes them evil? Stock agencies don't do that? Wire services don't do that? Come on, sir. Really?
The one thing I will admit that is different is a stock agency typically take 50% of any licensing fees that are generated. The AP wants a complete buyout for under $200 a game of your entire take (this was the last offer I had directed to me last fall ~ yeah, I passed - thank you very much). The MaxPreps shooters' work is non-exclusive (can be displayed on other sites), they keep their ownership rights, and they are generating income.
Yeah, granted some people aren't going to make as much money as photogs in other areas of a state or the country for that matter. Demographics, market, photo quality, disposable income, and team performance certainly play into the potential income derived from a shooter's effort.
No, I don't work for MaxPreps, but I am impressed by success the business model has brought the principal owners.
Seriously MaxPreps' business model is nothing new from my experience. It is far and above a better situation than what the AP is offering stringers at least in my neck of the woods.
So, I gotta ask; what is your real beef with the company? Why pick on them, really? |
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Thom Kendall, Photographer, Assistant
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Sunderland | MA | USA | Posted: 9:45 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> Clark,
It's the same beef that I, (and others from time to time on this site) have with any agency that grossly undervalues what we all do either as a passion or for a living, (and hopefully both).
Thom |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 10:45 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> The problem with working for MaxPreps is they are a brand of their own. That has a negative effect if you're trying to establish yourself as the go-to photographer. Because you and your name are not pushed to the customer.
When the customer remembers the service they received will they remember your name or MaxPreps? And when they need photo services, who will they contact... MaxPreps and you're out in the cold while MaxPreps can shop around for a cheaper photographer or someone who's playing politics.
Propping up MaxPreps makes each contributor more expendable. Looking down the road to the future... MaxPreps becomes a company like Lifetouch and hires photographers at minimum wage. How's that! I don't like it. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 11:01 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> I'm going to let everyone decide for themselves about the MaxPreps deal. I will say this, Todd is a great guy who posted some good news about the company he works for, and I'm not entirely sure he deserved to have this thread turn into a debate about his company.
That's all I got...carry on. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:05 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> I think your frustration is misplaced, T-man.
The value the market identifies with and that which we as producers of the product identify are not perceived at the same level. Not all producers value their work at the same level just as the end users in the market don't possess the same appreciation.
The role of the agency is to bring together sellers and buyers who share the same perception of value and facilitate a transaction, profiting from it.
Unfortunately, for those of us who have a passion or make a living from photography there is a continual stream of producers entering the marketplace thanks to a never ending supply of tools that are within the financial reach of almost any individual. Major advances every 18 months in imaging technology, improvement communication systems, and the ease of entry into the field adds up to dynamic, highly competitive environment. The aggregate of this situation fuels a changes in the market in what the end uses desire.
The market is to blame, not MaxPreps. The founders did what every successful business has done. They found or created a niche utilizing the available assets, technology, current talents, and acquired knowledge base to build a viable business model that has led to success. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 11:48 PM on 03.21.07 |
->> To answer the emails I have received on my earlier post, the sales numbers I posted were my share, what I received after Max Preps took their %50 so gross sales were twice those numbers.
The percentage photographers now keep has recently been changed, photographers now receive %80 of any sales.
Hope that answers a lot of questions.
( I did respond through email to all who emailed me as well.) |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer
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Canoga Park | CA | Usa | Posted: 12:07 AM on 03.22.07 |
->> Thom, I know the meaning of the word ignorance.
Your words, "So Then...Maxpreps depends on the ignorance of their photographers to achieve their business goals".
Since I'm a contributing photographer to Maxpreps, I guess that would make me ignorant. Although you have some valid points to make I don't believe you need to call people you don't know, ignorant of the facts concerning what drives the operation of the Maxpreps website. For all you know all of the contributing photographers know exactly what their getting into and understand that the website is driven by large amounts of money from advertising, and still sign on for it. Have you polled each contributing photographer? Or are you just assuming? The deal is there for all to see and all the photographers except for Todd are freelancers. They can choose to except or reject the offer. Their is no exploitation here. It's a take it or leave it proposition. Believe me, I would love to get a piece of the ad money, but that is not going to happen. Their's nothing wrong with the deal they are offering the freelancers. For some it works, for others it doesn't. I and a few other photographers I know have done fairly good with this deal and haven't lost money, but have made a profit. I do agree with you that Maxpreps should increase the compensation to their freelancers and they have changed their pricing and percentage structure a few weeks ago in an attempt to do just that. It still remains to be seen, at least by me, if that turns out to be the answer.It's my belief that some photographers just don't have the patience or resources required to build up a library of galleries and wait for the money to come in. Now, with the CBS buy out their will be an influx of money and support to improve the website and possibly improve the compensation for the freelance photography. I was just on the phone with Todd and we talked about the compensation issue as we have many times in the past. I'm sure their are some more changes coming up that might help some of the photographers get a better return on the investment in time and effort. Thank you for your attention, Rick. |
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Gary Jones, Photographer
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Rocklin | CA | United States | Posted: 1:30 AM on 03.22.07 |
| ->> Now that MaxPreps allows those of us with our own action sports websites to post photos immediately on our own sites (not after 14 days) the arrangement is much better. I have garnered a very nice action photo business with my two local high schools but could not generate many sales from the visiting teams. It's all about marketing when selling via the web. Now I can cover visiting teams and still post my galleries immediately on my own site. And having credentials is important during playoff time when game location moves away from home field. Here in California MaxPreps is an official sponsor of the CIF so most photographers can get access throughout the playoffs. Nobody is forced to work for MaxPreps - it's completely voluntary. Long live free enterprise. And I just wanted to say something about Todd - he is an avid photographer and is out there not just to create more galleries for MaxPreps - he really enjoys action photography. |
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Chris Williams, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Stevenson Ranch | CA | USA | Posted: 2:20 AM on 03.22.07 |
->> To finish this thread off I'd like to say congratulations to Todd and everyone over at Maxpreps! Cheers to a great future with CBS and I can't wait to see what's around the corner.
Chris |
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Kirt Winter, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 2:36 AM on 03.22.07 |
->> I almost can't imagine anybody reading this far, but here's $0.02 from me.
In general, making a good living from youth action photography is a pipe dream. I'm sure some manage to do it in one form or another, but it's tough field to plow, period.
Me, I've got a day job, and a fine one at that, at least until it gets outsourced to India. I do my best to try to respect those of you who do try/manage to make their living at photography, so at least to the end customer, I don't give my work away. Someday, I do aspire to make photography a real job, though honestly it will likely be a form of semi-retirement for me. You may not agree that what I do truly respects the craft, but I at least have thought about it and tried to find a balance that still meets my personal needs.
I don't much like walking around handing out cards and chit-chatting during a game; action photography rather than marketing is what I crave.
So, I was going to be at the local team's events anyway, I still do things like prints, poster designs and things like that for the local parents, but MaxPreps gives me a way to make a little extra by shooting the "other" team on the field/court. At least my hobby/photo education has become self-supporting.
As a bonus, I have gotten to shoot events that I would never have gotten into without MaxPreps, and if that was nothing but an education, it was a cheap one. And, as education goes, MaxPreps is picky, very picky about the photos you send them. Though like anyone I don't agree with all their criteria, I do think that getting to the point where I can consistently meet those criteria has made me a better photographer.
Next year I might even get a night football gallery accepted.
In the 8-9 months I have shot for (maybe I should say "with") MaxPreps, I have been "noticed," in that I am now a SS member, I have had no less than three job "feelers" from newspapers and other organizations, and dozens of requests to do other kinds of photographic work.
With all that, it is difficult for me to say that I haven't been reasonably rewarded for my work. Monetarily, I have figured out my hourly rate and it's not very appealing. As I said above, just being an event photographer is a tough way to make a living, whether you are shooting for your own website, MaxPreps, or a combination of them.
In the end, with due respect to Todd, if you have a better deal for me, I might be smart enough to take it. Whether or not I'm ignorant is thus left as an exercise for the reader. :-)
To Todd and the rest of the MaxPreps crew: Congratulations on your acquisition, and, as one who has been in the dog-eat-dog world of venture capitalists, I've no doubt you've all worked very hard to achieve it. |
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