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Questions for Event Photographers
Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 11:16 PM on 01.01.07 |
->> Ok, I've been toying with starting my own "event photography" business. I know some of you are experts in the field already. I have many questions, but I will start with a few. I plan on shooting little league, tournaments, dance, rodeo, and whatever I can. I have shot for my brother a bit, but he only hands out business cards and only gets a small percentage of the "prospective buyers" to his site. I want to do on-site.
Well if you would be kind enough to list some key elements in running a sucessful "event photo" business, that might be helpful.
First what events are off limits to shoot and sell? High School? College? I shoot for a college right now, but as I understand it, you can sell with permission from the athletic department (depending on the division).
Do you like to do it?
On-site: Should I start with a computer and a printer? I would like to build up to 10 viewing stations and 4-6 printers.
Lighting? One thing that bothers me about this type of photography is low quality and high price. I see many of these businesses selling crap, and as a photographer it get under my skin. Do you light up your events at all? I would rather spend a little bit of money on lights to make the images quality. Possibly cycling through a couple of sets of Alien Bees.
What about Digital Railroad or Photoshelter, and whatever other ones are out there. I want to use my sight to freelance, so I can shoot events and hopefully sell to agencies or whoever.
Well I'll let that start the conversation for now. Thanks - Chad |
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Norm Cabana, Photographer
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Milpitas | CA | USA | Posted: 11:22 PM on 01.01.07 |
->> Chad,
Go to www.prophotohome.com and go to the Event section and start reading. The answers to your questions can be found there. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 11:54 PM on 01.01.07 |
->> Chad,
Norm is right, come see us in the event section at prophotohome.com. Seeing as you are asking here I'll start you off.
1. Nothing is off limits if you talk to the organizers first. Don't assume anything. You will find that the younger the participants the better the sales. Lets face it not many NCAA D1 athletes are going to order an 8x10 and 12 trading cards ;) Youth tournaments where you have 30 or more teams over the course of a weekend will give you a bigger / faster turn that covering a 'season' for a local team.
2. Yes
3. You can start with 2 or 3 viewing stations and a simple 'server' and build up. You will NEVER need 4-6 printers to do event work, most people have 2 or 3 at the most. Dye subs are the way to go IMHO.
4. That will depend on the sport. If it's allowed AND the venue allows it, then go for it. Keep in mind that some sports do not allow strobes, and that it can vary by sport and state or league. Even when the sport does allow it, you will find that you will be working in all kinds of venues. Simple h.s. gyms my not pose any restrictions while a championship held in a D1 facility that is used to dealing with shooters and strobes will have their our rules and maybe even fees or insurance requirements. I get my info months in advance and make my calls as early as practical.
Many times the event organizer won't even tell the venue that there will be an event company coming. I like to show up 2-3 hours early to get everything setup, banners strung etc. Early on, 7 out of 10 times the first 15 minutes was spent explaining who I am and why I'm there. Now I call weeks ahead get the names of my contacts INCLUDING security staff.
As far as price goes, wait until you have a dozen events under your belt to make that statement. I don't know what you think is "high", you might have a different reference point 6 months from now.
Drop me a line off the board if you want to get into any of the answers deeper.....
Norm I didn't know you were a member here Howdy!
Eric |
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Norm Cabana, Photographer
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Milpitas | CA | USA | Posted: 12:10 AM on 01.02.07 |
->> I've been a member here since March 2003. I don't post much but I do read a lot.
Also, don't forget to mention John Harrington's book. |
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Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 2:55 AM on 01.02.07 |
->> Good stuff. Keep it comin'
I know I have a ton of work ahead of me. I need to feel out the market. |
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Michael Springfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Smyrna (Atlanta) | GA | USA | Posted: 11:57 AM on 01.02.07 |
->> Chad,
Although I do not own and event company I do freelance for about half a dozen of them. I have learned much from watching. These are my thought and observations.
1) Onsite printing is not worth the associated cost. Onsite ordering is. Take orders at the event. Print them offsite and mail them to the customer within a week. Offer an incentive to get them to buy at the event. Picture packages not available online, free shipping, etc. Once they leave your view stations the chances of a sale drops dramatically.
2) Pick events where the organizer has control of who enters the arena/fields/gym/etc. That way you can have a exclusive on the photography. Good digital camera have become very affordable so just about anyone with access can get decent shots of theirs kids at events like soccer, lacrosse, tennis, little league, etc. Yes you can make sales but the time and effort you will put in will not be worth the return. I am seeing many event companies giving up on the action shots on these for lack of covering costs.
3) Specialize. I will say it again. Specialize. Pick one area, buy the right gear and get very good at it. The event companies that I see making money are the one who do this. They just shoot cheerleading, or just dance, or just equestrian. If you try to do too much you won't be good at any of it.
4) Don't get cheap on the gear. Everyone has a D200, 20D, 30D and a 70-200 2.8 IS/VR. They are a dime a dozen. Separate yourself. Get the 1DMkII or the D2xs and fast primes. Get the gear that the average person does not.
5) You can't do it all yourself so hire good people. You will need photographers, avoid the temptation to hire your cousin's uncle's brother's neighbor's friend who got a camera for Christmas. Yes they are cheap but you get what you pay for.
6) Event photography is a lot of work. Know that going in. I have worked 32+ hrs in 2 days before. I have seen many event companies come and go. Too many people start them by thinking "I love taking pictures and think it would be cool to make money doing it." A friend of mine who owns one of the largest event companies in the country (over 100 view stations) got started because he enjoys taking photos and has done it for many years. Now the most he gets to shoot at one if his events is when he relieves one of his photographers for a bathroom break.
Please don't think that I am trying to discourage you. It is a lot of fun but there is a dark side to it as well and you very probably won't get rich. Most of the event people that I know have day jobs as well or at least have spouses that do.
Good luck. Let me know if I can answer any questions for you. I am always glad to answer questions.
Michael |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 4:05 PM on 01.02.07 |
->> Re: rodeo
Ditto everything Michael said, only worse.
Some things to consider:
The contestants have a lot less money, and generally are in a rush to leave to get to the next rodeo so they won't take the time to hang around and see what you have. Incentives and specials do no good because they're on a tight schedule.
You shoot in every weather, because rodeos only stop when the weather is so bad it's a safety issue, either because visibility is zero, or the safety people can't get to a rider that's being stomped.
A lot of arenas have no decent access to power, or are laid out in a way that makes it tough to set up strobes. The majority of pro-rodeo photographers have hand-held Quantum or Norman strobes. (To get an idea what those are like to use in the arena, take your camera and triple the weight, then carry it around in your left hand with it positioned like you're about to shoot. Alternate crouching and running sprints. Do that for about three hours periodically climbing a fence with your right hand. For extra credit do it in the rain or with mud on your boots or while you're so cold you can barely open your hands. For the last twenty minutes have someone let an angry pit-bull loose near you.)
It can be very dangerous in the arenas; You need to be agile and fast and know how the animals behave and what the pickup men are going to do. It helps having been raised on a farm or ranch or with horses.
Personally, I love it but I have a few screws loose. |
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Eric Jones, Photographer
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Greenville | NC | USA | Posted: 8:15 PM on 01.02.07 |
->> I 100% agree with Michael. I have all my pictures online for ordering and I've thought of going onsite and some of the track owners has asked about it as well but I just don't have the manpower to help me or trust. You are asking alot from these people to help you and they want a piece of the pie as well. You would probably need 3-4 people to make this happen. The upfront cost of computers, printers, viewing areas and booths to take orders. Shooting mx the tracks get so much dust and it just hangs in the air all over your equipment. I do this part time as I have a full time job so online works fine for me and I'm sure I miss some sells but overall it works best for me and it helps pays for new gear. Onsite is just alot of work but I'm sure if you do it the right way the rewards came be nice. Good Luck.
EKJ |
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Seh Suan Ngoh, Photographer
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Singapore | SG | Singapore | Posted: 8:51 PM on 01.02.07 |
->> Do keep in mind however, McDonald's doesn't really build a business in patty-flipping. At times it could be puzzling to wonder why their burgers are ho-hum, while others who have better burgers sell generally less.
It's all about the marketing. Yes, as a photographer we would be concerned with the basic requirements of delivered photos, but sometimes it's a tricky balance between turnover time, and quality of photos.
A decent 70-200/2.8 lens and a D200/30D should set you on the initial path. One adage I work by is to try max out the physical capabilities of the cameras where-ever I go, so that the camera is the limiting factor, not myself, so I get the most mileage out of the combination between my camera and myself. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 9:03 PM on 01.02.07 |
->> "One thing that bothers me about this type of photography is low quality and high price. I see many of these businesses selling crap, and as a photographer it get under my skin."
Chad, I am sure you did not intend to offend anyone, bit as an event photographer on this site, that statement lets me know how you feel about those of us out here doing it already.
My advise, just go do a tournament the way you think it should done, then, you will see it is truly a noble profession. Do not waste time researching the web, and trying to recreate the wheel. What may work for you may not work for some one else.
Best of luck, Sam |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 11:23 PM on 01.02.07 |
->> Good point Sam... that line got under MY skin a little bit. I'm sure Chad didn't mean the way it sounded, but be careful how you say what you want to say Chad.
That being said, a few valid points have been brought up here by the many and I'll reiterate a few things as well as add my own.
1) Viewstations- The software and browsing system has to be user friendly and customers have to be able to find their images FAST! This all comes down to how well your organize your folders and how quickly you can get them to the stations. At our events, we are able to do this within minutes and for others that I have worked for, it is a literally a matter of seconds. It's that quick. Viewstations are all about getting customers to find the images and place their orders quickly. Depending on the size of the event, you can NEVER have enough of these things. If you have 2 viewstations, you'll fill em. If you have 10, you'll fill em. If you have 100, you'll fill em. It will be your biggest limiting factor when it comes to sales. Don't choose events that are larger than you can handle when it comes to viewstations. It will cause quite a bit of distress on your end and for your customers. Do what you can handle.
2) On-site printing- Depending on the sport, customers don't need a print in hand when leaving the event. IMO, it's an unnecessary cost. Customers need to find their photos fast, place their order quickly, and move onto other things. This is VERY necessary. Time is of essence.
3) Strobes. Lots of indoor events don't allow it, so check with your venue and sport beforehand. Gymnastics and cheerleading being the two big events that DON'T allow flash of any kind. Plus, there is a huge liability factor and you have to invest in a sound insurance plan when using strobes. You should do this anyway if you are starting a photo business, but it becomes even more important when lighting an event. If one of those things happens to injur someone at the event... you are liable!
4) Marketing is key. Besides promo cards, flyers, websites, we make sure that our venues are well marketed and that the organizer that we are working with is on board, especially considering that we are giving them a percentage of sales. We also just purchased a 61 inch monitor for slideshows at our events. You have to be as visible as possible. We never work for a flat fee giveback. That's a love em and leave em philosophy. We work on percentage. You need the organizers working WITH you. When we make money... they make money. Plain and simple.
5) Some will disagree with this, but we actually overstaff our on-site events. Even with all the planning in the world, we will have unexpected snafus and we have to be prepared. If a server goes down, or we have technical problems, it's not worth losing the potential of 20 grand in sales over hiring an extra shooter, tech or customer service person.
6) And finally quality shooters that have shot the sport before and understand the "volume" of the business is essential. We have to shoot a lot, shoot tight, and shoot with proper exposure and color right out of the camera. We expect our shooters to give us a card with 90% keepers, which is defined as a "sellable" shot. Sellable being... tight, in focus, properly exposed, and showing a face. It need not be "peak action" all the time, but the other factors are essential. Plus, we ask them to shoot a lot! We can't sell what we don't have. This requires sitting on the shutter at times because we sell action sequence posters. Even more important, we have to get as many participants as possible. The shooters have to be able to "thread a needle" and get that kid in the back row. There is a good chance that the kid is in the back row all the time and no one has gotten him or her before.
Best of luck in starting your business. As others have mentioned, it's a lot of work but I love what I am doing and when done shooting an event, I'm always looking forward to the next one. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 01.02.07 |
| ->> Michael... geez, Hammy never relieved me for a pee break...LOL. |
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Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 1:41 AM on 01.03.07 |
->> Sam, I'm sorry for what I wrote. I definitely didn't want to offend anyone on here especially those doing event photography. Looking at what I wrote, "One thing that bothers me about this type of photography is low quality and high price. I see many of these businesses selling crap, and as a photographer it get(s) under my skin," and realizing what I meant, are two different things. I won’t go into explaining myself, but I had in mind people buying a camera and selling very average stuff (at a premium price). Locally I haven’t been impressed yet. I’m not knocking the biz; I just would like to see more out of the photographers here. I have seen some fantastic photographers (some of you) shooting “this type of photography.” I want to emulate that. My thoughts are, “Why can’t I raise the level of my photography and package it for people here?” Again I admire those who are great photographers, and have made event photo work for them, so much so that I want to do it.
Hope that clears that up some. Again my apologies.
Thank you Eric, Michael, and Paul for taking time to write in detail your advice. Thank you, Thank you.
Seh, you are absolutely right, Marketing!!! I have been researching the market where I am planning on starting this business. I'm working on developing a marketing startegy.
I really appreciate all of your advice. I am also thinking about travelling out of state to observe someone at an event. Anybody close to Utah? I wouldn't mind shooting some either, if you'd take me. - Chad |
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Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 1:49 AM on 01.03.07 |
->> Eric Jones,
Hey I love your stuff!!! Did you do the site? How do you like Shutterfly? Did you design those magazine Covers? Well I dig your stuff man. Would like to learn more. - Chad |
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Michael Springfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Smyrna (Atlanta) | GA | USA | Posted: 6:07 AM on 01.03.07 |
->> ->> Michael... geez, Hammy never relieved me for a pee break...LOL.
Paul, I am not sure how I got so lucky myself. I think its because I was shooting with the 200 1.8 and he wanted to play with it. :)
Greg, I held back a little because I didn't want to scare him too bad. ;)
Michael |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Island | NY | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 01.03.07 |
->> Chad,
First of all, good luck. You started a good thread here and my advice is to take all the information, not just one source. No single source is the one and only authority and in fact, there are many different plans and opinions so take each with a grain of salt and develop your own plan and style in the end.
I'm not sure what your sense of urgency is on this but I have a suggestion. Why not start off slow with the onsite printing while doing several events online. Getting equipment, staff and a solid plan together for onsite work isn't done in a day. In the meantime, as you grow, you can also create a customer base by shooting and offering photos online. All this talk about losing 70-80% of potential sales once you leave the event is nonsense. That was the case long ago before computers became commonplace in homes. I will never dispute the fact that on-site sales outdo online sales but you can do well with the internet sales too and while you're expanding on-site you can still have cashflow on the web.
As for specializing in one sport, I completely disagree unless you have one sport in such abundance year-round that you can afford to cover just one. Maybe there are sports you should not cover but figure that out as you go along. I have covered baseball, soccer, football, hockey and figure skating for the most part. I've dabbled in swimming, basketball and wrestling. With experience, I have found that the last three plus soccer are really not big money makers in my area so I concentrate on the others. If you are a good action photographer, you can definitely cover several successfully. In fact, it makes sense to cover baseball, football and hockey at the very least because these three sports take you full circle through the calendar year.
I do not do on-site sales myself but I know a few others that have including a very good company run by someone I used to work full-time with. In my area and by observing these photographers I can say this: on-site printing is not all its cracked up to be. In fact, certain sports do poorly on-site believe it or not such as football and soccer. Some leagues play on 3-5 fields at a time and in such wide open space it is very difficult to get people over to the viewing/printing stations. For this reason I think Michael speaks wisely. Think about viewing stations without the printing. Take orders at the game AND offer online purchases. Now you save huge overhead on printers, supplies and employees. Invest in viewing stations and order forms. You can always add the on-site prinitng later if you are convinced it is worth it but there's plenty you can do without that expense as you grow.
Like I said, take advice in here with a grain of salt and do what you feel is best for you. My advice is to start slow. Online sales can be set up in a day so start there. Then, grow one step further with viewing stations and on-site ordering. Get established with these and become known in your area. Then, if you feel onsite will boost sales then give it a try. The thing to remember is that onsite printing requires a big investment and if it doesn't work out you don't get your money back when selling used equipment. Onsite ORDERING and online sales as a compliment is the way to go. I've seen a lot of on-site printers come and go but those who concentrate more on getting the word out than printing, do better. If you are going to invest in manpower, pay workers to distribute your literature at the games and then word-of-mouth is your best advertisement. It takes time but it can work with the right plan. Best of luck with your new venture! |
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Tim Bettis, Photographer
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Austell | Ga | USA | Posted: 12:10 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Hello to all. I would like to begin by saying I am proud to be a SS member and my Thanks would go out to Mr. Springfield for helping to make this possible. I have had the pleasure of working with Mike and look forward to his company and advice in the future. I "lurk" here ALOT and have learned more than I would have ever expected from the resources available and many threads by some really talented people.
Reading this thread has been enlightening. I too do a good bit of the event photography. By comparison, I would consider myself still very new at this business. I too have questions that maybe I could get some insight on. What does everyone think about putting images on disk? What would be a fair price for images on cd? Printing on site is nice when you have the people, computers and printers that will keep up with the number of customers that want it now, but in a lot of cases, this just isn't possible. I believe there is a good mix of people that a. want it now and b.are fine looking online for them. I have been rather fortunate with the online part, I just would like to have more options for the "want it now" group.
Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.
Tim |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 1:51 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Selling images on a CD is a bit of a "hot button" issue. However, most of the points raised against the practice are made by shooters in the editorial market - sorry, but there is no comparison between the two markets.
If you choose to offer CD's, you have a few options to consider. Are you going to offer a complete set of unprocessed images, or a limited set of corrected images?
As for pricing, you have to consider how many images are involved, what your average print sale brings in. As a minimum, I'd look at offering CD's at 3x the price of your average sale; possibly 5x if the volume of images is high enough. You also need to consider the amount of post processing time you spend on a print sale that you are saving by offering raw images. If you spend a lot of time in dark arenas with horrible lighting and no strobes, you might have to spend a lot of time correcting color and cleaning up noise - that makes the raw CD option very attractive. For outdoor, daylight events, I NEVER offer CD's, as there is virtually no time savings or other incentive for me to do so.
Having said all that, roughly 80% of my customers that order CD's also order prints - in fact, my typical CD customer will order more prints than a non-CD customer. People who are appreciate good photography enough to want to spend the money on CD's, as well as money and time with Photoshop, are also the same people who understand the value of quality prints and will not hesitate to buy them from you.
I do not print on site, and would not consider it unless the event is big enough to require a minimum of 3 shooters. I basically run a one-man show for my events, and I work for a couple of other event companies that do larger events. At this time I have no desire to expand, but I'm keeping that option open in case something happens to my day job. |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 3:43 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Chad, you say "I plan on shooting little league, tournaments, dance, rodeo, and whatever I can."
Personally, I would not recommend this.
First, specializing in a few sports that are in some way related will make your operation smoother. Unless you want to be showing a slideshow of dance shots at the rodeo or a mixture of all events you cover all the time, you will need to change out certain aspects of your operation as you switch between sports. The more sports you have, the more you have to switch out and the less you can have a pick-up-and-go operation. Plus the more you have to do to setup for an event, the more that can go wrong.
Secondly, a lot of event companies make the mistake of taking every job offered to them whether it makes sense financially our not. While you can gain experience from doing an event that makes no money, you don't want to fill up your calendar with these sorts of events. The event has to have the numbers to cover your fixed costs and have the potential to make money. Some events will just not make money no matter how good a job you do. There may be too few athletes or too few interested in photography, it might be a sport where there are enough parents in the stands who can get decent shots to serve the market, it might a venue where everything is so spread out that you can't get out the message that you are there. You need to consider these kinds of variables when booking (and staffing) your events.
Third, if you want to be known for your quality, you need to start with sports that you know how to shoot and where you know enough about how their events work to have a good workflow and organization so customers can find their images. The biggest complaints I see on the web from customers of other events happen when the organizers contract with someone who doesn't know their sport or doesn't know event photography. You don't want to get a reputation as someone who can't get the job done. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 4:40 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Dave, I've been getting more and more requests for images that can be displayed on (in?) the new digital frames.
I'm thinking of having some kind of package that would put 800x600 640x480 and the 150px cellphone size at 72dpi on CD's. I know that around here the digital albums are getting more popular, especially with desk and cubicle workers who have limited space and MUST have 100's of shots of their kid doing something.
I'm also toying with the idea of letting people buy the above sizes and d/l them directly without having me burn a disc.
A fair price point is the hard thing to get to. The buy and d/l model means having to come up with a fair price for individual files. For example Maxpreps sells the cellphone files for .99 each. I'm not sure I want to go quite that far but ..... then again what if 1/2 team starts buying and trading those thumbnails?? Itunes is doing alright selling 99 cent titles, right?
I'm thinking of testing the waters during the February playoffs. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 4:55 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Eric-
I doubt that you have the volume that iTunes has. Nor do you have the buying power or distribution.
Selling a cellphone file for $0.99? Hmmmm....why not jsut sell them a digital file for $10-$50 and they can make their own cellphone file.
dbr |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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San Carlos | CA | USA | Posted: 6:03 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Web-ready images for $10 each. Been selling then for 3 years and they are hit and miss. Some people buy versions of every print they purchase so they can email to family/friends and carry around on their iPod, others actually want them for team/personal websites. We resize them to 500 pixels. One lady bought 26 of them for an end of the year slideshow for the team. This is in addition to the digital negative for $35 each.
I kinda of like the cellphone image thing. Make it like $2-5? Hmm...need to give that some thought. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 6:12 PM on 01.03.07 |
| ->> Eric, once again, pricing would largely depend upon how much manual post processing is involved. Like Brian said and Delane alluded to, such sales should be in addition to your basic "Corrected Digital File" price. If some amateur with PS complains about the fee, inform them that images professionally prepped for the Web have specific color profile and sharpening requirements that are different than an full-sized file. |
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Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 6:38 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Eric I kinda like the idea. Don't burn a cd, blue tooth it or email them the file (instant archive). A little post processing (Just use a template) and you're done. No Printing, or burning. ¢.99 Sounds good to me, maybe $1.49 or $1.99, Something to think about or try.
Hey ya'll I'm loving all the input, I have some new questions that I will post as soon as I digest all of the gems already dished out. Thanks ya'll - Chad |
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Ron Mason, Photographer
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East Setauket | NY | US | Posted: 7:50 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Chad:
I understood where you you were coming from in the first place so no offense felt here. I agree that onsite ordering will give you more volume then just online. Marketing is key; event photography is 90% marketing and 10% photography. It's a lot of work but also a lot of fun; at least it is for me. Best of luck to you.
Ron |
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Eric Jones, Photographer
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Greenville | NC | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Chad, sent you an email on the questions you asked and looks like you have some excellent feedback from your fellow ss members. Good luck to you.
EKJ |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 8:12 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Chad, those are closer to the prices that I had in mind.
Delane, No I don't have the same volume as Mr. Jobs but I DO I have better buying power. No one else can sell my product. For that matter in the case of tournaments we have the contract for the gig. Which means that with the exception of 3 events that I can think of, parents can't get close to the action. As far as distribution, you, me, itunes, we all have the same distribution channels. We have differing audiences or market but the distribution is the same. That has been the great equalizing power of the internet.
As far as why to sell the 1.49 cellphone wallpapers. That goes back to what I have already said in another post. You and I have two differing views of THIS section of the business. We probably agree on 95% of the rest, but to me this is retail pure and simple.
When someone walks up to our tent or into my web space they have entered my store. I just don't want them to leave without buying something. Every time that they come and buy something, ANYTHING then the first hurdle has been passed. Conversion! They are now a customer. You can't beat that. We covered a few dozen youth football games. If I could get half of the moms to drop $5 each on wallpapers from each game every Monday. Dude the numbers get real, at least for me. Add to that, the fact that they will now be used to coming to the site each Monday to pickup a few wallpapers and I won a second battle, getting repeat visits and putting my products in front of my customers over and over again.
As Brian has seen (me too) there are people who will buy the $1.50 wallpaper and a $20 print and a $30 poster. Why do you think Wendy's put up a .99 menu? Add on's. |
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Chad Clark, Student/Intern, Assistant
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South Jordan | UT | USA | Posted: 8:52 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> Eric I've been mulling over your idea, and I think it could be very good.
When I see this one company here locally and there cheapest product is $8.00, I don't even look at the images. If someone thinks you're over priced they will hesitate to even look (I do). So if they see a $1.49 price I would be like this. "Oh well what's this? That's kinda cool, so I look. Well here is little Jimmy, I want that one. This one is great too, how much are the 8x10's that's kinda high, but I gotta have this shot of little Jimmy. I think once they see the images (And the emotional investment kicks in, the $25 for a magazine cover is a no brainer for them)
People buy for two reasons: Desire for gain, and Fear of loss. The latter I would assume propels this business. I gotta have that picture of little Jimmy. If they don't see it they don't want it.
Plus people for some reason don't want to just spend a dollar, they think, "well I'm spending money, I might as well add another couple things to my shopping cart." It's weird, but many are like this. So the wallpapers could set the hook "oh that's cheap, I'm gonna see what they have." I don't think anyone walks into a store without intention to buy, whether now or down the road (let me see what I'm saving for).
Anyway, another thing would be attaching your website (somehow) to the file, so when Mom shows off her wallpaper to whoever, "where did you get that?" Um it says, ...., We can go to there site. Cool, I want them to take.... Could spawn more business and repeat customers. Just a thought.
So, I dig all of the great stuff ya'll, now I think I'll sit back and watch LSU thump Notre Dame. - Chad |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Island | NY | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 01.03.07 |
->> I'm afraid I'm full of disagreement with some of the comments in this thread although the thread as a whole offers great advice and experiences, so I'd like to address some of those I disagree with based on the fact that I have photographed youth sports and sold online for a stretch of five years before taking a break.
Tim said:
"What does everyone think about putting images on disk?"
Be careful. If you have a way of customizing each disk for each customer that's one thing but offering a disk that includes all photos from an event is a risk. One parent buys and distributes the images off the disk to everyone else and you end up with one sale.
Marie said:
"specializing in a few sports that are in some way related will make your operation smoother"
Hmmm - no. I disagree. It sounds good though. In the past I covered baseball, football and hockey depending on the time of year (I'd say those are three very different sports) and there's never been a problem with quality or consistency. You're a good action photographer with knowledge of the games your shooting or you're not. I would say, don't shoot sports you know little or nothing about but trying to photograph all similar sports is not necessary either - that's too restrictive unless they are in such abundance that they carry you year-round with great sales. Cover what you know so you can anticipate the action. If you know five sports well, there's nothing wrong with covering all five.
Ron said:
"event photography is 90% marketing and 10% photography"
That's very profound but not true. You can be a top-notch marketing person but if you don't have the images to back it up, your sales will reflect it. In fact, one of the biggest problems these days in youth sports photography is that there are so many wannabes that happen to have enough money for equipment and an aggressive marketing approach yet when all is said and done their photos are garbage.
Chad said:
"When I see this one company here locally and there cheapest product is $8.00, I don't even look at the images."
Chad, you make an interesting point about offering at least one very low priced item but at the same time I believe most potential customers go online having a reasonable idea that they are going to spend more than $10 for quality images when all is said and done. I've had the occasional objection to the pricing but that 1% doesn't bother me because anyone that has some kind of clue as to what good photography is will not leave a site because the lowest priced item is $8. People who want a nice shot of their child or relative are not going to bolt from a site before seeing the actual images. If they do, they weren't going to buy in the first place.
Now, with all that said I think many points in this thread are good ones because no two experiences are the same and we can all benefit from such a diverse group of photographers. For example, I know someone who had great sales in soccer year after year yet I never have. I know one group that tried the on-site sales and failed miserably and another that did pretty well. There are a lot of variables involved and many in here offer some good insight into their own experiences but in the end I think the newbie in this field has to find out for him/herself with trial and error. Every situation is unique so I guess the best advice might be to take all advice with a grain of salt (including mine), cover the sports you know well, devise and execute an aggressive marketing plan and oh yeah, make sure you and your photographers are pretty good at what they do. Good Luck Chad. |
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Rick Davis, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 1:04 AM on 01.04.07 |
->> Chad
Many of the members here have offered excellent advice. A few have touched on what I have discovered to be the most difficult, as well as one of the most crucial aspects of successful event photography.
Michael said:
“You can't do it all yourself so hire good people.”
Paul said:
“Some will disagree with this, but we actually overstaff our on-site events. Even with all the planning in the world, we will have unexpected snafus and we have to be prepared. If a server goes down, or we have technical problems, it's not worth losing the potential of 20 grand in sales over hiring an extra shooter, tech or customer service person.”
Excellent advice. Our biggest challenge has been finding competent, qualified staff that posses the patience and customer service skills necessary to deal with the hectic environment. The best equipment, numerous view stations and highly skilled professional photographers will do you no good if the staff working the stations are not performing their job. While you are busy creating stunning images, your staff is the face of your business operation. All to often the travel each weekend, long hours working without breaks and impatient customers contribute to a significant turnover of staff. Work ethics have changed and it is not uncommon to receive a call only hours from event time that one of your key staff no longer wishes to work. Just something else to consider when developing your business plan. Good luck! |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 1:05 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> iTunes can sell a song for 99 cents because they sell the same song over and over sometimes to millions, sometimes just to thousands but rarely to just 1 or 2 people. Also, they have a fully automated system for ordering and fulfillment as well as for receiving the song file, storing it etc. There is very little labor involved.
Event photography is not like that. Any particular image has a limited audience. You will not sell that image as wallpaper to more than a handful of people at most and usually just to one person. Then, you will have to create each wallpaper by hand and email them by hand.
So the money you get for a single sale should cover all your costs including the costs of prepping the image and saving it as wallpaper as well as the cost of emailing it. If it takes you 20 min. to fulfill an order for wallpaper, then selling it for $1.49 means you are making less than $5 an hour and that's assuming you've already covered the costs of creating and storing the image.
If your goal of selling wallpaper is to have an add-on, then you need to make it an add-on -- something they can only buy if they buy so many of them or have already bought the image as a print. Otherwise be prepared to sell a bunch of wallpaper of a single image and nothing else to the handful of customers who will always buy your cheapest item. IME these same people would have bought your cheapest item if it was $5 or $15 or even $25, but if you want to offer something in the $1.50 range, they'll buy that instead.
I have found (from talking to my customers) that most of them don't know what my prices are when they first come to the booth to see their pictures. It's the lure of the images that gets them to the booth, not any promotions I've run or the prices I've set. Usually there is so much clamoring for their attention at an event that it's hard to communicate any promos I've come up with -- all they really absorb is "there is a photographer here and you can see your kid's image if you visit their booth".
In fact, your biggest challenge is going to be to communicate that. I just did an event where my booth was right in the main path at a skating rink and you practically had to trip over it to get to the stands where people were watching. Yet I had someone call me afterwards and say that none of the skating moms at her rink had realized I was there! They were all new to skating and didn't realize such a service existed so when they walked by the booth, it didn't penetrate what it was that they were seeing.
Finally, be careful about making decisions based on "I would (or wouldn't) do X if I were a customer". You are not your customers. You don't necessarily think like them, have their same values, or spending habits. In my case, I am a parent who has kids involved in youth sports. But even I am not my customers because I understand the whole process of how the images get produced and all the costs involved and that changes my thinking over a typical customer who has no idea. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:32 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> Marie,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. A little background info for you to ponder. There is zero additional prep work in getting the files ready for the wallpapers. They have already been sized down to 200px thumbnails for use on the event index page so we would make a global change to 150px thumbnails on our site. I don't and won't have to adjust the file in any way shape or form. So the labor has to be done whether or not I sell the thumbnail. And in reality it is being done in the background as an automated function during the ingest phase. So labor = 0 (Unless I'm missing something)
Distribution is also a zero labor process. The thumbnails already reside on the server (remember they are there to be displayed on the index pages). Distribution is no different than when I buy a software title online and 10 seconds later I get an email link to d/l the program. All the labor is done by the server. The trick is to write the scripts so that they work the way I want them to.
Add-on may have been the wrong term. Try loss leader if you like. I don't think that you are looking at the whole market the way I am. If you really think that someone will buy a 150 pixel wallpaper instead of a print, based on price, I have to totally disagree with you. I don't buy for a minute that someone will decide hey I'll settle for this 1x1.5 inch image on my cellphone instead of a 5x7 and save myself the $10. Nope not buying that for a minute. I do think that the kids will gobble this up and may even buy 2, 3, or 4 to change on their phones over the course of a week. Look at how often they d/l new ringtones or ringbacks.
Now, you are right that if I had to sit here and prep and u/l these things then I might be a fool and working for $5/hr. But ALL of the work is done by machine. It's like the tooth pick factory selling sawdust. The thumbnails are a byproduct of posting images. I didn't have to make them and won't 'fix' them. What you see on the index page is what you get. Lets be real. When I buy a 99 cent burger I'm not expecting 100% Black Angus, and neither are people grabbing these wallpapers.
I agree with your experiences with promotion at an event. I normally have people at the entrance handing out a small promo card as everyone enters. One of my clients is now having the ticket sellers pass the promo card WITH the ticket to the people coming in. At spring and summer events we have kids that slip one under the wiper of every car in the parking lot.
I'm working on the software side of this. I'll let everyone know how it goes when we roll it out in February. BTW just to put this into perspective. I won't be the first one out here doing the wallpaper thing. Look around, some of the BIG fish have been selling these things for a while. I don't see it hurting them. In truth if it was such a drain on bigger sales they would have pulled the wallpapers off a long time ago. |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Island | NY | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 01.04.07 |
->> Eric,
If it works for you, go for it. I'm not really sure that I follow your explanation of why you don't have to put additional effort into the sale of the wallpaper. For me, it would take enough effort that its not worth it and yes, I do believe there are several people out there that just might settle for wallpaper instead of a print and in those cases you are competing against yourself and losing.
I still disagree 100% with the theory that having the lowest priced item being $8 will scare anyone away and like I said, if it does, they weren't going to buy in the first place so those aren't even considered lost sales. |
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