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Exploiting the dead in Lebanon?
Chris Stanfield, Photo Editor
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David Lucas, Photographer
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Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 12:17 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> And I don't think it's worth much. Having worked with Kevin Frayer for a number of years he is a stand up guy and has some of the highest ethical standards i've seen. Whether or not the rescue workers/military/civilians set up the situation is a different story. As for the time stamp on the images... that only works if your cameras are set to the proper time and date. If they are out of sync only a couple of minutes that throws everything off.
I will say that I am curious as to who "green helmet" is.
Cheers
David Lucas
Staff Photographer
Toronto Sun
www.torontosun.com
www.davidlucasphotography.com |
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Colin Corneau, Photographer
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Brandon | MB | Canada | Posted: 12:48 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> I'm suspicious of assumptions made by the blog author, that Mr. Green Helmet is "displaying distress" in one photograph.
Well, carting a dead child around in a war zone can do that to a fellow, I suppose. However, we all know that capturing a person mid-expression can convey any number of things on their face -- doesn't necessarily make it so. Just because I catch someone blinking in a shot doesn't mean they were asleep or drunk! I think that assumption on the author's part only betrays their lack of knowledge of working photography.
I also want to add my agreement to David's statements about Kevin Frayer's integrity. |
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Matthew Bush, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ellisville | MS | USA | Posted: 1:47 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> The man featured in the images does not appear to be an emt so hes most likely doesnt see this day to day , im guessing he is the equvilant to a volunteer first responder here in the states, this said he seems to be showing off the body, but how many images have we seen where bodies of Palastinans killed by Isralies are displayed in the same matter, the photographer wasn't controlling the man, the mans political affiliation/emotions were what made theses photos.... I have had it happen in the states, a Father corraling me past a police line so I could get images of his injured daughter so "I could show what thouse bastards did" some people react like this in stressful moments and see the media as an outlet to show the world what there going through, I shot my images... this photographer shot his images..if there is ethical problems its the mans not the photographers. The blog writer is not a profesional photographer he is making assumptions on a man who is risking his life in a very dangerous place, I am proud to see the support that was posted above. as for the time stamps it seems to me He was shooting with two cameras, .... This is just my own brainstorming but I went to my gear bag and snaped two quick photos one with each of my bodies and check the date stamp in the date.......... ONE OF MY CAMERAS is an hour off... the other a few minutes from the correct time... now think about the last time you set your cameras time, now think about that in a combat zone.
Anyways Don't flame me too bad I know im young and still learning.
Disclamer: Im just a wee Intern hunting shooter theses opinions do not represent the opions of my employers or my clients past/present/and future |
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Kevin Sanders, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Des Moines | IA | USA | Posted: 3:05 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> "Those lies have spread throughout the world by now and will be in this morning's newspapers, accepted as real by the millions who view them."
... and there's lies on the internet that are spread throughout the world and will be on today's websites, also accepted as real by the millions who view them. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 7:16 AM on 08.01.06 |
| ->> The guy writing the blog wasn't there. The photographers were. A war zone can be a confusing place. Passing judgement on accuracy from the comfort of an office thousands of miles away is insulting to the folks on the ground doing the job. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 7:37 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> Clearly the blogger protests too much.
The blogger is exploiting the dead for political gain, using the business of photo-journalism to mask the real agenda expressed between the lines of the blog.
Clearly the blogger has never had to cover war first hand with a camera.
I dismiss the writings as propaganda. Not worth the time of day. |
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Eric Wynne, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 7:38 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> Obviously this arm-chair war observer doesn't know what he's talking about. Or at best, can't face the reality of images coming from a war zone.
First of all, the timeline he keeps noting are more than likely not when the images were captured in the camera but when they finally entered in to the bottleneck of the main AP or Reuters computers in New York or Washington for distribution.
These situations take mere minutes not hours as this person seems to think it does.
As for the parading of bodies for the news media gathered, yes I believe they are doing just that. I think it is to show the world what this war/conflict is doing and who is really suffering.
This is a war zone. Innocent children die whether they be Israeli or Hezbollah or Iraq. This guy should deal with it be angry about the innocents killed in this useless war not throw politics in to the mix. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 8:48 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> Another possiblity is that this deceased child's body was "discovered" by this same "rescue worker" at different sites and at different times of the day for propaganda purposes.
The "rescue worker" then "poses," not in response to directions from the photographer but deliberately (and cleverly) in a way that he knows would give the photographer exactly what he needs.
In this context, it is quite possible that a media savvy operative within Hezbollah has made HONEST photographers his unwitting accomplice. The only "lie" in this case would be that this poor child died in a bomb blast in the morning, and was unfortunate enough to die AGAIN in a second explosion in the afternoon.
As such, the operatve finds the child's body in the morning where it is photographed by the first photographer. Then, in the afternoon, this same operative PRETENDS to "find" the body at a seperate site in the presence of a second photographer. It is possible (unpleasant to think about), that this same body has been "found" in even more sites and perhaps even on different days. It would be interesting to sift through several weeks worth of these photos to see if this repeats itself, but someone else can have THAT job. Photos of dead children are depressing regardless of how, when, where, or why they died.
The blogger may be on to something here without realizing what he has discovered. There is a strong possibility that this guy has uncovered a lie, but it is not the lie that he THINKS he has found. |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 08.01.06 |
->> "First of all, the timeline he keeps noting are more than likely not when the images were captured in the camera but when they finally entered in to the bottleneck of the main AP or Reuters computers in New York or Washington for distribution."
Bingo... While there may have been some stage managing of the photo shoot, there's no "smoking gun" with regard to the time stamps. That's the time the image was posted by the wire services' photo desk and not the time the image was taken. For major events, news service will often race an image or two out quickly and then follow up with others are closer editing and captioning can be done. All the time proves is that the image could not have been take AFTER the time shown. For example, if you go to Yahoo! News and search on "George Bush Coast Guard" you see images from a visit Bush made to a USCG facility in Miami on 7/31. If you go by the "time stamps" on the image and use the assumptions stated in the link, you'd conclude that Bush's speech lasted a couple of hours and the visit lasted around 10 hours.
Also, BTW, Reuters' photo desk is in Singapore! |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 12:00 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Hey everyone
Let Richard North know what you think of his blog. He's one of the editors of the site.
EUREFERENDUM@aol.com
He'd be glad to hear from all of us.
Grin.
He has a political agenda, and, in my humble opinion, using photo-journalists' work out of Lebanon to exploit his world view.
I don't mind people speaking their mind, but I do have a problem with disguising it by hinding behind the skirts of others. He's making photo-journalist the wiping boys of his beliefs. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 12:33 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> The root of this blog's political agenda.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/we-need-to-know-truth.html
His starting point is "The world is being control" hypothesis.
Perhaps the world is simply chaos, and we're on the backseat of this roller coaster?
Now where did I put my green helmet? |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 1:17 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> I am shocked that everyone is dismissing this story so easily.
Wake up people, both sides of any conflict will use the media to it's advantage. The media may be unaware of it (I would hope) but none the less this is a compelling story worthy of more investigation.
Think about it: if you were sent to a war zone to get great shots under intense pressure, would you come rushing to a scene that you were told would be full of dead bodies etc? Of course you would! You have to get great pictures or you will not be the photographer for your agency for very long. Hezbollah knows this....and I think would exploit this.
Two other things:
1. What about green helmet appearing years earlier in a very similar situation?
2. The time stamps were most likely taken from the metadata of the original picture. It is very difficult to change metadata (I have no idea how) and if this is the case I doubt that so many different people's cameras would be so off in terms of a time date stamp.
Let me know what you think. |
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John Riddell, Photographer
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Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 2:03 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Not to undermine the seriousness of this topic, but could Green Helmet be a distant relative of either the Green Hornet or Green Goblin?
Seriously, the sketchy timeline aside, I don't think this is a matter of a few photographers getting different angles of this guy.
He is obviously carrying the bodies of these poor kids for photographic opportunity if only for a short distance. Any rescuer with that on his/her mind would be carrying each child as if it were their won. He is clearly trying to make a point.....at different locations with different children at different times and attacks. It's a shame anyway you look at it. |
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Karl Stolleis, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 2:18 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Two things here - those green helmets, whether on the same person or not, are older issue kevlar helmets and you can probably find them all over the middle east. Moot point really....
Bigger question - if the photographers were only reacting to the situation, that is VASTLY different to directing someone to do something. Sometimes as a shooter you need to make sure that a subject is not "using" you but that is a judgement call. The guy might have been "exploiting" the situation but that does not mean the photographers were complicit in the deal. This guy accusing the photographers of crafting lies is way out of line
I have often wondered if news agencies didnt show up to cover protests, would there still be protests? |
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Adam Vogler, Student/Intern
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Pittsburg | KS | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> I find it hard to believe that five photographers from three major news agencies would conspire together to "add to the shock value". As others have posted above this clowns precious "timeline" is the result of the time/date settings of the five photographers cameras and the upload times to and by the agencies they work for. His arguments, and I use the term losley, are simply ridiculous. This is simply a case of someone looking for a reason to discredit the media so that reality doesn't interferer with their personal beliefs. This is something that I've heard from the extremes of both conservatives and liberals. We in the media are a just bunch of biased liberals with an agenda or all a bunch of biased conservatives with an agenda depending on what information a person wants to disregard. I'm just a student and I've already been accused of being both. As the country and the world becomes more and more polarized those of us that try and stay impartial will have our reports disregarded more and more by BOTH sides as playing to their opponents. I bet if you looked you could find a bog out there that took the news media to task for being biased towards the Israelis.Sorry for the long post but I'm sick of the news media being taking to task by a bucnh of loud mouth talking heads that only care about furhtering their own agenda.
Then again like matt said before me I'm still a student so what the heck do I know. |
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David Lucas, Photographer
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Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 2:40 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Kirk,
Changing the time/date stamp in your metadata is as simple as changing the time/date in your camera. If i wanted i could change it so every picture i take is taken next week. Plus there are tonnes of programs out there designed so that you can change your metadata.
Cheers
David Lucas
Staff Photographer
Toronto Sun
http://www.torontosun.com
http://www.davidlucasphotography.com |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> At what point do you realize you are being used?
You get a phone call about a bombing, then you arrive, along with a HORDE of other media people, and then you are directed to where the dead bodies are, then you are given ample opportunity to photograph said bodies, in different locations, in and out of a gurney etc... and the two guys, the 'white tee shirt guy' and the 'green helmet guy' (both of whom are CLEARY the same people in all the photos posted to the blog) happen to be in every picture like they are saving everyone there....and if they are saving poeple you wouldn't put the wounded in a gurney, then take them out etc.. and if they were dead I imagine they would go straight to the hospital to be identified etc.
This whole series of pictures is very fishy. I applaud the blogger for taking the time to put this together. We will see if it pans out or not, but we as Photojournalists have biases and political leanings like any other human. Whether these journalists knew they were being fed a photo-op or not will depend on thier biases. I hope they didn't realize this may have been a photo-op. But I wouldn't hold Photojournalists to much higher standards than other people in the media...including those who write blogs.
I for one can't remember seeing an Israeli rescue worker holding up a dead child so that photogs could get a better angle. Usually they are keeping photogs out of the way and getting the people in the ambulances ASAP.
It may be me but I feel that there is a definite anti-Israel bias in many media outlets, just look at many of the stories appearing on Corbis and Getty.
Is there one story showing the wounded and dead on the Israeli side? A story about the constant horror of having hundreds of missiles randomly rain down on your city from a terrorist group whose mission statement is to destroy the state of Israel? Or how about a story detailing the way that Hezbollah uses family dweliings from which to launch rockets and intentionally create collateral damagae (no doubt for media purposes) by keeping Hezbollah soldiers quartered with local Lebanese people?
Call me crazy, but does anyone else notice this?
Tell me your thoughts. |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 2:49 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> One last thing:
It is not the photojournalist that I accuse of anything other than being led around perhaps. It is the simple fact that Hezbollah COULD be using the media for it's own purposes. It happens everyday...we all shoot photo-ops at one time or another, a ribbon cutting, a first shovel of dirt, money given to charity etc. In this case, the media is manipulated to cover a photo-op (the Qana bombing) with the intention of shifting attention away from why this conflict started int he first place: an act of war by a terrorist group called Hezbollah. If Hezbollah manages to turn the tide against Israel in terms of the media and world sentiment, then Hezbollah wins.
I urge anyone commenting on this thread to read the first blog post AND all the update links to that post. There are three I believe. |
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Kevin Nibur, Photographer
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Livermore | CA | USA | Posted: 3:41 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> THE TIMES ARE UPLOAD TIMES NOT CAPTURE TIMES!
This has been pointed out but keeps being ignored here. Feel free to argue other aspects but stop worrying about changing metadata and so forth. If you don't believe me go to Yahoo right after a sporting event and watch as the images are uploaded by all the photographers and watch the times... |
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Kevin Nibur, Photographer
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Livermore | CA | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 08.01.06 |
| ->> Sorry, I read my post and it sounds a bit hostile, which I didn't intend. I was frustrated and the blogger, not other posters here. My point, still is that he is way off base using the date/time. There should be no mystery to it other than the fact that he/she doesn't understand what that information signifies. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 4:32 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> The vast conspiracy continues.
Meanwhile people who simply want to live their lives are dead. In Israel, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Kashmir, Somalia, the Balkins, Yeman, etc.
For what ultimately? To prove or disprove anything? I'm right. No, I'm right.
Metadata seems so unimportant. |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 4:55 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> I conservative blogger I read nailed this one:
"...the claims that the building couldn't have collapsed after so much time sound remarkably like the WTC Building 7 conspiracy theories, which were based on the fact that 7WTC, the farthest from the twin towers, inexplicably collapsed nine hours after the planes hit, even though it suffered no apparent structural damage.
As for the 'staging' claims--the anger that Lebanese rescuers played for media effect--there's a difference between holding up a dead child, so that reporters can see what happened, and faking a scene for propaganda purposes. The former doesn't strike me as either odd or reprehensible.
Unless you have some pretty convincing evidence, when something bad like Qana happens, the correct response is to express sorrow at the tragedy, not to accuse the people it happened to of staging the incident in order to make you look bad. The various claims some Muslims made that 9/11 was a Jewish or American conspiracy just made Americans madder, and rightly so. It also made them sound extremely foolish. I'll need a lot better evidence before I further those sorts of accusations."
-Instapundit |
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Jerry Laizure, Photographer, Assistant
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Norman | OK | USA | Posted: 5:54 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> Rush Limbaugh and AP's Kathleen Carroll weigh in on the issue in an AP story posted on NYTimes web site about the photos:
''These photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda,'' Limbaugh said. ''They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged. Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it.''
and
''It's hard to imagine how someone sitting in an air-conditioned office or broadcast studio many thousands of miles from the scene can decide what occurred on the ground with any degree of accuracy,'' said Kathleen Carroll, AP's senior vice president and executive editor.
Carroll said in addition to personally speaking with photo editors, ''I also know from 30 years of experience in this business that you can't get competitive journalists to participate in the kind of (staging) experience that is being described.''
Link to complete sotry:
http://tinyurl.com/mxgjk |
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Michelle Posey, Photographer
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Little Rock | AR | United States | Posted: 6:25 PM on 08.01.06 |
->> We downloaded two of the photos here -- one from Reuters and one from AP -- and I couldn't find the metadata attached. Photoshop didn't display any time stamp. Photo Mechanic displayed a time stamp for when the photos were downloaded to this computer. All other fields were blank.
As many have pointed out, the time that appears on AP is the upload time. In fact, if you look at the wire you see that one of the photos of the kid covered in dust is the exact same photo, but was uploaded twice. The second time is nearly three hours after the first upload time. I doubt that green helmet and all the people in the background of the photo stayed frozen in that exact same position for three hours.
This is deja vu of the Haifa Street Photos Conspiracy Theory from Iraq, which held that the photographers and the terrorists worked together to stage a photo.
http://www.deadparrots.net/archives/media/0504haifa_street_critics_are_back... |
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Michelle Posey, Photographer
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Little Rock | AR | United States | Posted: 6:51 PM on 08.01.06 |
| ->> Actually, I misspoke. I looked for time stamps on two photos, but one of them was an AP photo that the paper I worked for used recently, and one was one of the photos from Reuters that was mentioned in the article. But neither had any metadata attached that I could see. |
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Eric Wynne, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 9:47 PM on 08.02.06 |
->> Geoff,
I forgot Reuters HQ moved from Washington to Singapore. It's been a while since I've had to deal ith the guys at Reuters.
Go Jim Young! |
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Jamie McDonald, Photographer
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Adelaide | * | Australia | Posted: 12:06 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> Hmmmm.
So the crux of the initial article and all the updates is that 'green hemlet guy' is a Hezbollah official playing the deaths of civilians up for all it's worth - displaying dead children to the waiting media?
"I applaud the blogger for taking the time to put this together." Please. I have time and respect for the photographers who are working in the middle east bringing such images to us, whether it is the deaths of railway workers in Haifa, or kids in Quana - as a member of LightStalkers Kirk, i would have thought you would offer more respect to the photojournalists on the spot, doing their job, than to a blogger.
It's pretty easy to write a blog, and link to other blogs with entries such as "Hezbollywood" suggesting the whole thing is staged; it's a whole other thing to take a risk with your life just getting into Lebanon, and then making the trip to Sour, and then heading across to Quana. I think you think too little of your working colleagues, and perhaps have a little too much time and respect for a blogger (even if as he says, his office isn't air-conditioned.)
Wonder if the pics on his blog are licensed from the agencies, or are we cool with copyright infringment as well... |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 3:02 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> Of course I respect the photojournalists, but I maintain the possibility, (since Hezbollah is known to purposely use human shields and launch attacks from civilian dwellings,) that Hezbollah is using civilians as shields knowing they will be killed and hence provide visual propaganda vis-a-vis media reports in favor of the Hezbollah agenda. I hope you can see the difference and I believe I am not making any accusations or assumptions that are totally out of the realm of possibility.
I do believe that this is an issue worth discussing and I do appreciate conversation for or against what the blogger wrote. Remember, we as photojournalists help to write history and we have a fundamental responsibility to cover both sides of the story. Where are the photo stories about the hundreds of rockets being launched haphazardly into Israel? I believe coverage is greatly favoring the story of the Lebanese suffering and indirectly turning opinion against Israel which is only trying to defend itself.
Am I alone here in my views? Does anyone else entertain the possibility that Hezbollah is using media outlets to wage a propaganda war?
Interesting discussion... |
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Jamie McDonald, Photographer
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Adelaide | * | Australia | Posted: 7:13 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> A discussion on the accusation that Hezbollah is delibarately getting Lebanese civilians killed to spin the media isn't really an ss topic, but I'd happily chat offline about it.
Hezbollah aren't exactly amateurs at this; they have their own tv station, Al-Manar, which has millions of viewers across the globe, and they know there are two wars; one on the frontier, and another in the papers, on the tv, and on the internet.
Kirk, I'm not taking sides, and perhaps you aren't either, but you seem to be looking for more pro-israel, anti-hezbollah stories in the media. It's relatively simple math - scores more Lebanese are dead than Israeli; it's not nice, and maybe it's not fair but it's true.
Both sides will spin, spin, spin - it's as old as war itself, but some of the snappers named in the blog are reputable correspondents, and I simply don't believe that they'd be taken for a ride easily.
The words written, photographs taken, and footage shot into our lounge rooms about Quana forced a 48 hour ceasefire which allowed some aid into the south. Whether that makes photojournalists complicit in a propoganda war is up to all of us to judge.
The kids were dead. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:02 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> "(since Hezbollah is known to purposely use human shields and launch attacks from civilian dwellings,)" ?????????
That was the British complains about how rebel British citizens where fighting back in 1776 in the British American colonies! We call them our Founding Fathers and celebrate events like the Battle of Monmouth as great victories.
Hezbollah is not a traditional army. They don't have special bunkers for their weapons. Their weapons are house in tradtional structures. Israeli intellegence of where these weapons are stored is not perfect. Thus homes get bombed with women and children inside. The American Air Force has done the same in all wars since aircraft have been used in warfare. This is not new.
Nor is it new for any side of a conflict to promote their side through spin. Israel has a huge propaganda machine employed. That is their right. The people of southern Lebanon are not more or less guilty for doing the same.
But to get back on target with the original posting is that the European blogger seems to be suggesting that the photo-journalists are part of the conspiracy of spinning the news in favor of Hezbollah. That's were I make my objections to the blog.
In hindsight, I wonder if the blog site isn't on the payroll of Israel after reading many of the other postings. We have no way of truly knowing this as fact. It just seems so convinient that right after the world reacts to the killing of women and children by Israel that this blog starts calling into questions the truth of how this event was photographed.
Our CIA does the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan by paying for positive news stories to be seeded in the press. Our federal government lately has done the same thing with domestic news. Remember the paid journalists who wrote for the Department of Education?
So why not have Israel seed the internet with blogs that question all things as anti-Israel. I'd do it if I were an Israeli citizen.
We need to be the questioning reader, and not take much out there as the "Truth."
Which brings me to the questoins "How is it known that 'Hezbollah is known to purposely use human shields'"? What are your resources for the word "purposely"? Who has talked to Hezbollah to confirm this information? What are your responses for such a sweeping statement?
Yes Hezbollah launches rocket from open fields and olive groves, but is that "purposely" launching attacks from civilian dwellings? Or is more to the truth that sourthern Lebanon is an agricultural area with farms and town near where these open fields and olive groves are?"
My father fought in the Korean War as an artillery officer - he will tell you that these howitzers that Israel is using are not that accurate. You shoot the weapon, see where the shell hits, and then adjust your sights. If you're lucky you hit your target in three attempts. I know my father's guns hit Korean homes by accident when the Chinese Army camped too close to civilian structures.
We need to read between the lines and question everything.
Mostly we need to remember the innocent dead. They don't get to spin this or write a blog. They simply have had their hopes and dreams crushed, and are never coming back. That goes for innocent Israelis, Lebanese, Iraqi, Afghani, etc.
One other thing my father has said to me throughout my life from his experience of fighting on the front lines "All was is madness." |
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Peter Quinn, Photographer
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Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> Kirk, you are not alone with respect to the fact that it is possible that this may not have been what it seems to be. I certainly don't believe that any of the photographers were complicit with the staging, but rather on the scene of a tragic incident that may have been manipulated. The fact remains that this would not be the first time that an event has been staged for the cameras by Hezbollah or other groups for that matter. Both sides of any issue/war/political party/u-name-it attempt to use the media to their advantage. I hope THAT isn't news to too many folks.
Why does asking the question immediately mean you are trying to impugn the photographer? I find it interesting that if you, meaning anyone and surely myself now, questions the possibility that the event was staged/manipulated it means that we are taking sides. I find that a bit sad that we can't now question something without being accused of having an agenda. By that inference, doesn't that mean that the people who want us to take everything at face value have an agenda NOT to dig deeper? I would hope not. To me it seems to me that there are enough little details to warrant some digging. Isn't the truth what we're supposed to be after? Isn't that the "side" we are supposed to be on?
Remember the great "cardboard box affair" with George Bush and the "Made in USA" stickers? Reporters weren't just content then with the face value of the scene, and with just a little digging they found that it wasn't all as it seemed on the surface.
The bottom line is that there are innocent dead on both sides of this conflict. Just as there have been in countless wars throughout the ages, and no doubt in the ones to come. That's not right but it is what it is. It's a crazy world we live in, and no more-so than I can ever remember. Hopefully we'll figure out a way to end disputes before we blow ourselves off the face of the earth. |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 08.03.06 |
->> Walter,
While it's true that the Red Coats were often bent out of shape because the rebels often wouldn't stand in formation out it the open to be shot at like "gentlemen" should, to imply that an organization whose MO is to fire unguided missles from residential areas into civilian areas are their modern counterparts is a bit of a stretch.
As for evidence of this... Here's an instructional video clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHQFyO_fu4&eurl= A modern "Minuteman" pulls up to a home in a pick up, jumps out with a rocket launcher, runs beside another house and fires a couple missiles at Isreal. Unfortunately, for the dude anyway, an Isreali drone was onto him and the IDF "responded". No doubt this would be considered another civilian death and another Isreali attack on a residential area. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 1:14 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> Geoff
Go to Scotch Plains, New Jersey to see the Canon Ball House.
The British were forced to shoot at a residential area to defend themselves against the traitors hiding and shooting from the town during a battle.
The Battle of Monmouth was not simply rebels not fighting like "gentlemen." It was a planned hit and run operation, with Molly Pitcher helping fire unguided weapons after he husband fell. The British were more than upset.
I'm not defending the Lebanese for starting this latest round of madness.
What I'm saying is to attack the photo-journalist's motives in doing their jobs, while a few living Lebonese pose, is my problem with what was implied by the blog site. Remember the blog article? The dead children are still dead children.
I appreciate the Israeli Army releasing the video on "youtube." It doesn't confirm that the person firing the rocket was killed by the Israeli response. There is an editing jump between the Lebonese firing and the house being hit.
I have no doubt that the world would see Israel's response in this video as a normal war time action. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 1:21 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> Editing correction to my father's words about war.
My fingers put an S where an R should be.
"All war is madness." |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 2:35 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> Walter,
Well, I'm in the middle of reading David McCullough's "1776" (great book, btw), so perhaps I'll come across some of that. However, I will take a wild guess and assume that even Molly Pitcher was at least _trying_ to hit military targets.
I'm in no way defending the blogger pointed to at the start of his thread nor their theories. I think I've made that clear. I don't think the event was staged nor were the photographers participants in any deception. I just don't buy the notion that Hezballah (sp) is more or less the same as some units in the Contenential Army back during that first "unpleasantness" with England.
As for the video clip, the purpose of the clip was to show that Iran's proxy army has gotten a little more sophisticated than firing from olive groves and open fields. If you look at several of the other video clips linked on that page, you see plenty of other recon footage of rockets being fired from beside other residential structures and buildings in populated areas (including the now infamous Qana). Even UN officials had pointed out and criticized Hezballah for using populated areas to stage attacks and placing the local non-combatants in harms way. |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 4:36 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> I found this video interesting. Perhaps it too is propaganda, but it is worth taking 18 minutes of your life to view it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1oq7oGO_N8 |
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Michelle Posey, Photographer
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Little Rock | AR | United States | Posted: 6:13 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> I'm not sure Kirk was impugning the photographers, but I do think the bloggers were.
Every time there is a tragic situation I think you could say that either the victims are exploiting the media, or the media is exploiting the victims, or both. Personally, I would not put it that way. I would say that journalists have an interdependent relationship with those they cover.
But I know that there were plenty of people at Katrina trying to get me to take their picture. These weren't "set up" photos, but whenever anyone was doing something interesting 3 or 4 photogs would seem to appear out of thin air. People allowed me into their houses or the remains of their houses. People were suffering, and, especially on the Gulf Coast, where I was, they felt they had been forgotten in the shadow of New Orleans.
Covering the civil war in the north of Uganda, the victims and survivors there were also more than willing to have their photos taken. They were hurting, and felt the world had forgotten them, and they wanted people to see their suffering.
But a cynical person might say I was exploiting them, or they were exploiting me. All I can say is that if you were there, it was not like that. You can believe me, or not. For most of these anti-media bloggers, they will believe what they want to believe about journalists, and nothing will change that.
Michelle |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> While I was standing on a small shopping street partially filled with women and older men in a refuge camp in northern Gaza in 1990, a group of Palestinian teenagers came running around from an adjoining street into the market at full speed.
Seconds later a small unit of Israeli soldiers following the boys entered the market.
The army soldiers stopped, leveled their weapons, and fired plastic bullets through the entire shopping area, at the boys, at the women, at the old men, and at me.
As I became part of a wall and then the ground, I remember quite clearly the faces of the soldiers.
They were all laughing. Laughing as the shot their weapons.
This was not a "youtube" propagando film. This is what I witnessed. The Middle East is not a situation of good guys and bad guys like in Hollywood westerns. There is penty of blame to paint everyone red with blood.
The Arab madness needs to stop. The Israeli madness needs to stop. American madness needs to stop, so a real peace can be found in the Middle East.
The propaganda blogs and videos are not instruments of peace - they simply continue the madness.
Geoff - I never said the rebels of our American Revolutions were the same as Hezbollah, nor did I make claims that my father was just like the Israelis when he commanded artillery to fire on Korean villages. My point is all war is madness, now and throughout history. History not as simple as our high schools teach. I've photographed David McCullough (no relations to my wife), and he's a good historian. He writes a good "popular" version of history. Not quite what's taught on the college level, but still illuminating. Enjoy "1776".
Also go to the battle fields of Monmouth if you can. Walk in the path of the British. Try to envision what it was like to be young, fighting for one's country, and have your fellow country men shooting at you, but not being able to see the shooters. That "unpleasandness" was no more or less unpleasant than what the Israeli citizens or the Lebonese citizens feel right now. |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 6:58 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> Saying war is madness implies that there is nothing behind it except a massive group mental problem, that we are merely apes with a predisposition to make war for war's sake. It does not address the causes behind the current conflict, the geo-political manuevering between the west and the Syria-Iran-Hezbollah factions and to me seems like a dead end way to end the discussion. Like saying 'Make Peace Not War,' it would be nice, but it's not practical.
I do not know the context in which you found yourself in Gaza that day--- why the kids were running, why the soldiers acted the way they did etc. But that one incident does not really address what is reflected in the 'Propagando'links I have posted. No one likes war. But let's try not to simplify it, and please don't give moral equivalency to Hezbollah. Israel is doing what it has to do. |
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Jamie McDonald, Photographer
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Adelaide | * | Australia | Posted: 7:33 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> I think this post would be best if it was left to debate the use of the media and in particular the photographers implicated in the Qana story.
A blame game and a defense game for one side or the other is way off topic... |
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Kirk Mastin, Photographer
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Coeur D'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 7:42 PM on 08.03.06 |
->> I agree Jaime. I somewhat apologize for having helped steer this thread a bit off topic. On the other hand I think this issue is very relevant, and the credibility of the media is becoming more and more in question. From things such as the Patrick Schnieder case, to what Jayson Blair did at the NYT. In this context I believe this topic is interesting.
Alright, signing out, no more from me.
But great discussion anyways guys!
Kirk |
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Barry Curtis, Photographer
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Laguna Beach | Ca | | Posted: 6:37 PM on 08.04.06 |
->> "War is Hell"
General George S Patton
"Control the media, control the people"
Stalin |
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