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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
"For Hire" job worth it?
Wesley Putt, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Elkins | AR | USA | Posted: 9:35 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> I'm a student photographer and I was offered a job to shoot a marathon race in my state's capitol. According to a conversation I had with the employer, it pays $50/hour with a minimum of 5 hours work, and may last up to 8 hours.
I recieved the contract today and there were some concerns I had with a few articles. Here are a few:
The photographer is required to meet at "X" location at 6PM on the evening prior to the event. The meeting will last 15 minutes, then a tour of the marathon's course will be conducted. "The photographer will pay a fee of $10 for the meeting."
(We're paying to be told where to shoot?)
Also, more importantly, It doesn't say anywhere in the contract how much we're being paid, or when a payment, if any, will be delivered.
On top of that, the contract essentially disclaims any liability on the part of the employer, and leaves the employee wide open for getting screwed...at least, that's the way I interpreted it. Based on the contract, there's no actual mention of payment at all. What if I'm just being lied to, and I won't even be reimbursed for travel expenses?
Are my concerns legitimate? |
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Paul W Gillespie, Photographer
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Annapolis | MD | USA | Posted: 9:46 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> Sounds shady to me. Why would you have to pay to meet with them? You should definately have what you will be getting paid in writing. I would talk to the employer again and try to clear this matter up before agreeing to work for them. The way it sounds don't be afraid to walk away from a bad deal.
Good luck
Paul |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 9:52 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> Contracts are negotiations. You cross out what you don't like and add what you need. Initial beside each change and send it to them.
It is the same thing as buying a house. Just because they gave you a piece of paper in writing doesn't mean you cannot cross something out. They do need to sign it as well and give you a copy.
Also, let’s say you have done all this and show up and they then say, while you are here. This is when you say not a problem we just needed to change the contract and adjust the price for the change. Always remain positive.
Sometimes you may have to say I can do this in this time frame. If you want more in the same time, I may have to just use on camera flash and the quality will not be the same. Then they choose which way to go.
Again--you are negotiating. Sometimes they don't move and you may have to walk away. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 9:54 PM on 02.16.06 |
| ->> What company is it? I'm sure several people here have either worked for them or know of them. |
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Brad Penner, Photographer
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Neptune | NJ | USA | Posted: 10:02 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> In stead of talking to us, talk to them, and have them draw up a new contract based on your conversation and concerns. If they're not willing to do that, do you really want to shoot for them anyway? I'm with Paul on one thing though. The $10 "we'll show you around the night before" fee sounds a bit shady. Find out -why- they're charging you. Until I read the part about the fee, I actually thought a mandatory 15-minute meeting to go over the race route sounded like a good idea.
-b. |
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Mark J. Rebilas, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 02.16.06 |
| ->> for a fee of $10 I will tell you what I think about this contract |
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Wesley Putt, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Elkins | AR | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> Thanks to those who replied. I have spoken with two other photographers who were also sent a contract, and neither are pleased with what they see.
I may have been wrong about the $10 "meeting fee". Another photographer said that we are being paid, not charged, that amount for the meeting. Here is the actual wording of that clause:
"Meeting will be less than 15 minutes. If able, I would like to take everyone shooting to the course and provide a course tour. This should take no longer than 1 hour. Payment for meeting time will be $10 per person."
Wesley, all I will say (to protect the company in question) is that it is a one-woman operation based in Houston, TX. |
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Paul W Gillespie, Photographer
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Annapolis | MD | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 02.16.06 |
| ->> You could always tell them that the $10 meeting fee is fine but you charge a $20 consultation fee and would expect your $10 extra the night of the meeting. |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 10:18 PM on 02.16.06 |
->> Wesley --
You've been asked to work for an organization like "marathon photos", "Marathon Press", or "Brightroom". All of them pay in a similar vein. They contract with the race, and pre-position photographers at specific places around the course. Typically one or two at the finish line, and a few sprinkled throughout the course. The images are then delivered to their offices, where they have staff who do nothing but look at each image, and key into the metadata the runner number, then those images are loaded online, and anyone can go and search by their number and see all of the images in which they appear.
That said, recognize these issues:
1) You are committed from about 5:00 until 7:00 or so the evening before. Meaning, you are not billable to another client at that time, i.e. for any evening event, as any evening event will begin at a time when you must be in this meeting. At the least, it's paying you about $5 and hour for a meeting, at the worst, it's costing you an assignment that could be worth hundreds.
2) You are being paid to be told where to shoot, as a member of a team. The experienced ones who have a track record of getting the photos, are at the finish line, where it's most important to have the best images. The newer photographers typically are mid-course. You are not there to make portfolio images, or make great art, you are documenting the participation of every runner you can, so that the company can earn revenue off of each runner, and recoup their fees and expenses.
3) You are accepting liability in the event you trip a runner, cause a pile-up of runners, or cost a runner the race, and qualification for a national level race, etc. While runners do sign waivers so that the race organizer is not held liable, that does not extend to protect you.
4) The contract may be a general terms contract, and each race has a seperate assignment which stipulates hours, travel time paid (if any), and whether or not expenses are covered. The contract should, however, include some clause which stipulates when and how you are to be paid.
Stanley's right -- every contract is a negotiation. In fact, a contract MUST be a meeting of the minds to be valid. A contract which has zero give and take can be seen as a "contract of adhesion" and ruled invalid, but that's for an attorney to beat down. The notion is -- if a contract is non-negotiable, it's usually not beneficial to you.
Best of luck.
John |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 10:32 PM on 02.16.06 |
| ->> A contract has consideration going both ways. I.e. I will do this for you and you will do that for me. What you are calling a contract here, doesn't seem to have what is being done for you, in effect, payment. It has been a long time since I took business law, but a "contract" without consideration is not a contract. |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 12:29 AM on 02.17.06 |
->> I'd be worried about going on a 15 minute tour of a 26-mile course. That's over 103 miles an hour, if my math is correct.
Hopefully, they're just talking about looking at a map. |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 2:40 PM on 02.17.06 |
->> Wesley,
That e-mail sounds as if it was from ASI, and if so, it is legit. You get paid for shooting all the runners of the events and there is a brief meeting the night before the race. Our meeting lasted about 10 minutes and was very informal............only thing, we were not paid for the meeting.............if you take on the job, be ready to fire off around 3k shots (at least) and take a monopod. My experience with them was a good one and I have been contacted about several other events with them. I hope this helps you. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 02.17.06 |
->> Incidently, to better explain what I was talking about:
What are the key elements of a binding contract?
Competent Parties - For a contract to be valid, each side must have the capacity to enter into it. Most people and companies have sufficient legal competency. A drugged or mentally-impaired person has impaired capacity and chances are a court may not hold that person to the contract. Minors (e.g., usually those under eighteen) cannot, generally, enter into a binding contract without parental consent, unless it is for the necessities of life, such as food, clothing, or for student loan contracts.
Consideration - If the other side is to be held to the contract, you must give up something in exchange. This is called consideration. No side can have a free way out or the ability to obtain something of value without providing something in exchange. Money is the most common form of compensation, but it can also be property, giving up a right or valid claim, making a promise to do or not to do something, or anything of value. Agreeing to perform an illegal or illicit act is not consideration and the contract is void.
Mutual Assent or Meeting of the Minds - This means that each side must be clear as to the essential details, rights, and obligations of the contract. Putting the deal down on paper prior to signing it goes A LONG way to avoid future misunderstandings and disputes. Meeting of the minds sometimes can be expressed by words spoken or gestures made or can be inferred from the surrounding circumstances. There is no meeting of the minds if: (1) one side is obviously joking or bragging, (2) there is no actual agreement (i.e., the farmer who is selling a gelding and the buyer thinks the horse is a brood mare), or (3) both sides have made a material mistake as to the terms or details of the contract.
Without all of those three elements there is not a binding contract, and consideration must go both ways. You can sign their piece of paper, but if it does not state what you are getting paid and what you are doing for them, no one is bound. |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 7:46 PM on 02.17.06 |
->> Consider this:
The Nikon D2x has a shutter life rated at 200,000 frames. The Nikon D70 and Canon 20D, just about 100,000. 150,000 cycles on the Canon 1Ds, and 200,000 cycles on the 1Ds mark II.
Using the anticpated number of images at 3,000 per race, your D70 or 20D will last about 30 races. For the 20D, at $2000 for the body, that's a proven cost to you of $67 a race. For the D2x, while the body is $4500, to replace the shutter alone runs about $750, and you will be without your camera for 1-2 weeks. That's either $150 a race, or $25 a race if you're comfortable shooting with just a replacement shutter on your now worn-out body.
Races are typically a 4-5 hour deal, and yes, you're being paid $250 for that. Now, let's minus out $50 for the now proven wear and tear on your camera, $10 for mileage or so, and the on-site meal you'll need to buy at around $10. That leaves $180. Out of that you need to cover insurance (car, health, gear, etc), the amortization of your lenses, laptop, etc. Let's be REALLY conservative and only attribute $20 to this overhead. That leaves $160 in profit. The government takes 50% of your profit, leaving you with $80 at the end of the day. You probably had to wake up at 5am, be on site at 6am, start shooting at 7am, and are home by noon or so -- 7 hours later, and you're beat for the rest of the day.
How does this sound for being a photo-machine shooting every runner you can?
John
(P.S. If you're the cautious photographer, who would not want to shoot on a 200,000+ frame count D2x with a new shutter, not knowing what will fail when you are doing the higher paying job(s) in the future (you do have a 2nd body to shoot with, just in case, and to use during the 1-2 week downtime during a shutter repair replacement, right?) you're attributing $150, and not $50 to the cost of shooting the race by replacing the camera when the shutter dies, so that profit of $160 drops another $100, so you are at $60 a job in profit, less the government's 50%, and you are at $30 to you 7 hours later, or about $4+ an hour after taxes...) |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 02.17.06 |
->> Or, you could take a raise and flip burgers.
(just kidding)
(sorta) |
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Mike Brice, Photographer
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Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 9:21 PM on 02.17.06 |
->> John H.,
Great point - I did a few Brightroom races and thought the same thing. Now I don't do them anymore. Glad you pointed it out. The wear and tear on the gear is something that should be considered more not just for the race type photography but also for the event shooters who fire off 1,000-2,000 frames a day at soccer and baseball tournaments. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | Az | USA | Posted: 12:04 AM on 02.18.06 |
| ->> I was contacted by AFI last year and I turned them down over the phone. I never even looked at the contract. My fee would be $175 an hour to cover my expenses and to realize a profit. Anything less and you're losing money. I mean face it, $50 an hour isn't much these days when you consider the expenses involved. In addition, I believe you relinguish all rights to any of your work. That's something also to consider. |
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Jon Winslow, Photographer
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Clifton Park | NY | US | Posted: 8:31 AM on 02.18.06 |
->> I did this type of work for Brightroom once.
It was a long day -- but they paid, and they called me again the next year.
It is very mercenary. You most likely will not get a portfolio shot - but you will get paid about $350.
It is really just a matter of whether $350 is worth it for a day of work in the sunshine.
Note I only did it once. The work is a bit of a pain, but it helped with the rent that month. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 10:15 AM on 02.18.06 |
->> "The photographer will pay a fee of $10 for the meeting."
Forget it. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 11:28 AM on 02.18.06 |
->> "Payment for meeting time will be $10 per person."
That means they'll pay YOU the $10. |
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David Griffin, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Concord | NC | USA | Posted: 11:42 AM on 02.18.06 |
| ->> for an additional fee of $10 I will tell you what I think about Marks opinion of your contract |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 02.18.06 |
->> I shot a marathon for Brightroom once and never will do so again. They are nice folks, but the pay is really lousy for the amount of time you spend and the amount of wear you put on the gear. I probably could have made more money by snapping shots from the non-credential areas and selling the prints directly to the runners (I knew several of them in the race). And it killed me to shoot all of those shots without being able to keep ANY of the images (they take your cards and return them formatted - plus you have no rights anyway). So even if I got a good shot I wouldn't have it for a portfolio. What can I say...I didn't know better at the time.
Keep in mind that some of these marathon participants could end up as olympic athletes years down the road. When you see the retrospective of their career in SI with that nice finish line photo you shot and a "courtesy Brightroom" credit, that $250 you made for that day is going to seem really cheap. |
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Seh Suan Ngoh, Photographer
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Singapore | SG | Singapore | Posted: 2:56 AM on 02.20.06 |
| ->> I'll quote Rick Rickman on this - don't give up your copyright. Leave the job to those who think a digital SLR has infinite shooting life :) |
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Seh Suan Ngoh, Photographer
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Singapore | SG | Singapore | Posted: 3:31 AM on 02.20.06 |
->> John H, thanks for the detailed breakdown of the running costs. I'm starting out, and greatly appreciate your frankness in sharing how costs should be calculated.
Thanks once more! |
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