| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
D2X and the color purple.
Heston Quan, Photographer
 |
Placentia | CA | | Posted: 3:26 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> Anyone else have a problem shooting with the D2X and uniforms that are purple coming out a royal blue? I shot a night football game last year where the players uniforms were the same color scheme as the Lakers' and all the colors came out fine, except the purple was blue. I thought it was because I was shooting with flash and was WB for flash and had something to do with the sheen on the uniforms, so thought nothing of it.
Last week I shot a soccer tourney in bright harsh sunlight and one of the teams color was purple. I shot half the game on AWB and some with it set on direct sunlight. They looked blue on the LCD, but I shrugged that off because it's not color accurate. I uploaded them and looked at them on my color balanced monitor and they were royal blue.
I also shot some of the game with my D2H, set on AWB and the purple came out like it should.
Anyone who has shot the Minnesota Vikings for example have this problem? Or even the Lakers in road unis? |
|
Wes Hope, Photographer
|
Maryville | TN | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 01.25.06 |
| ->> Check your color mode (sRGB, AdobeRGB, etc.). |
|
Heston Quan, Photographer
|
Placentia | CA | | Posted: 3:40 PM on 01.25.06 |
| ->> Both cameras are in sRGB. Purple is the only color I have problems with on my D2x. |
|
Wes Hope, Photographer
|
Maryville | TN | USA | Posted: 4:21 PM on 01.25.06 |
| ->> Just a theory. I know I've seen some funky color shifts when switching color modes. Sorry I can't help further. |
|
Wes Hope, Photographer
|
Maryville | TN | USA | Posted: 4:32 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> What about when you switch color modes in the camera? The H and X have different sensors. Try shooting something purple with your X in different modes and see if it's just something the CMOS picks up in sRGB. Or easier if you shoot NEF, change the color mode and see if it changes.
Again, just theories. |
|
Ian Elliott, Photographer
|
Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 4:42 PM on 01.25.06 |
->> Heston,
If you have access to a Hot Mirror Filter try a test with that in place. I use a HMF on all my lenses, including a drop in on the 400. That solved the same problem for me on the D2H.
If the HMF fixes the problem then it is due to the IR wavelength being visible to the sensor. Apparently the D2H LBCAST has no IR filter over it. I am not sure about the D2X.
So it's worth a try if you have one.
Cheers.
Ian |
|
Dave Amorde, Photographer
|
Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 01.25.06 |
| ->> Heston, I have noticed the blue cast on soccer uniforms shoot with the D2X, and have attributed it to blue sky reflecting from the shiny polyester material. The images currently on my member page had that problem, which I corrected with a hue adjustment of -12 Cyan. On some of them, I also boosted saturation on the now shifted cyan by +6. |
|
Dave Amorde, Photographer
|
Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 01.25.06 |
| ->> I use a HMF on all my D2H's but the D2X's don't appear to suffer from that problem. |
|
Louis Lopez, Photographer
|
Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 1:05 AM on 01.26.06 |
->> Heston,
I have seen the same issue when shooting sports as well as portraits in the studio with the D2X, D2H and the D100.
I have shot Cap and Gown portraits where the kids gown color is purple, yet on the screen they appear blue. Don't worry they print correctly. No correction has been neccesary on my files. |
|
James Clark, Photographer, Assistant
|
Melbourne | FL | USA | Posted: 9:39 AM on 01.26.06 |
->> Ihave also seen this Purple to Blue color shift in several Nikon models. I have also detected a Green/Yellow shift to Orange. This is notable in grass appearing dry and unwatered. It is not as dramatic as the Purpble to Blue shift. I do a fair amount of Fine Art reproduction and have the original paintings sitting beside the monitor as I prep them for printing.
My fix to these shifts is to use Photoshop's hue saturation tool. I will select cyan and yellow respectfully for each shift and then adjust the hue. For a quick fix, I have found that a overall hue shift of about +6 will fix the color problem. Most digital cameras have in their set up a control setting for Hue that can be adjusted +/- 9 degrees. |
|
James Clark, Photographer, Assistant
|
Melbourne | FL | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 01.26.06 |
| ->> But, I also agree with the above posts. Before adusting color, have you color calibrated your monoitor? If you don't have a monitor, but do have printer. Run a series of hard proofs to get an idea of how far your monitor is off from what your camera is saying. Or better yet, send some of your images to someone who does have a calibrated monitor and verify on theirs if there is a color drift. |
|
David Lucas, Photographer
|
Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 10:09 AM on 01.26.06 |
->> Heston,
Back to the colour space that your camera is in. sRGB is a smaller colour space then the Adobe space. That might be your problem that the purple you are shooting is outside the sRGB space and is getting clipped. You should be shooting in the Adobe 1998 space and if you have to convert it to the sRGB space for your needs. When you are capturing your image you want the most amount of information possible. With the sRGB space you are just not capturing all that you can.
Cheers
David Lucas
Staff Photographer
Toronto Sun
www.torontosun.com
www.davidlucasphotography.com |
|
Dave Amorde, Photographer
|
Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 1:07 PM on 01.26.06 |
->> The problems I experienced were in the Adobe color space; I don't believe SRGB is the issue. In Louis' case, where his monitor is off but the prints come out okay, he obviously has a workflow calibration issue.
As for making a hue adjustment in-camera: unfortunately, you can't do that for specific color ranges like you can in photoshop. |
|
Louis Lopez, Photographer
|
Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 01.26.06 |
->> Dave,
It's only with certain shades of the color purple, no other colors. every other color, prints as it appears on screen, monitor is calibrated, when I adjust for the purple to appear the correct shade on screen, it does not print correctly.
Since I rarely run into this particular shade of purple often, as long as it prints correctly it is not an issue for me. Our portrait clients see proofs which print correctly, and it is in our paperwork that all final prints will be retouched and color corrected. |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 01.26.06 |
| ->> Custom White Balance with Grey Card. |
|
James Clark, Photographer, Assistant
|
Melbourne | FL | USA | Posted: 4:33 PM on 01.27.06 |
| ->> I agree with David. The Adobe color mode is a better mode to use than sRGB, which clips the color data. Better yet would be to also shoot in RAW to maximize the breadth of color tonality (12 or 16 bit over 8 bit). |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 5:03 PM on 01.27.06 |
->> Output is the problem which is all sRGB. Your monitor, printer and everyone else's in the world is sRGB.
Shooting in Adobe RGB does give more information which needs to be post processed and you must then take advantage of this extra information and compress it into the sRGB color space and 8 bit rather than 16 bit.
The issue is still setting your white balance correctly.
Also, when shooting under other than full-spectrum lighting (flash is perfect renditions) you do not get the full range of colors of a science.
Try for yourself shooting a wide gamut of colors (gretagmacbeth Color Chart http://usa.gretagmacbethstore.com/index.cfm/MenuItemID/291.htm) under fluorescent, tungsten and flash and compare them.
Shoot them Adobe RGB, sRGB and also shoot them jpeg and raw. Once you have done this compare. You will soon discover color space matters not just by having the camera set right, but also what temperature of the lighting.
Try the preset for flash, tungsten, fluorescent as well custom white balance with white card and grey card.
What I am trying to point out there are a lot of variables which need to be isolated and understood. |
|
Louis Lopez, Photographer
|
Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 5:21 PM on 01.27.06 |
->> It is not color balance, ALL the other colors other than certain shades of the purple not all purple's just certain shades/fabrics all the other colors red, green, flesh tones etc... appear correctly.
Stanley is correect what we see and print is in srgb, you can open the files captured in Adobe 1998 in the correct colorspace in photoshop as well as photo mechanic but the end product when sent to a photo printer/ lab ends up as srgb. It is just the one specific color spectrum of purple that has issues. |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 01.27.06 |
->> My college teams colors with purple and gold, so this is subject is close to the heart.
Another trick is also to adjust the auto white balance or any other preset to -1 or more to warm up the blues you are getting where it should be purple. |
|
James Clark, Photographer, Assistant
|
Melbourne | FL | USA | Posted: 6:16 PM on 01.27.06 |
->> Heston,
I would like to see some of these images with the color drift to get an idea of what you are seeing. I have included a comparison image that I have been experiencing a similar color shift with my gear and a what I have done to counter it.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/sigsten/bluepurple/ |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 7:46 PM on 01.27.06 |
->> Who was it who suggested a separate membership category for the "experienced" members?
"Shooting in Adobe RGB does give more information which needs to be post processed and you must then take advantage of this extra information and compress it into the sRGB color space and 8 bit rather than 16 bit."
What a load of horse manure, Stanley. Sorry. (Same goes for you too, David - you're not capturing less information using sRGB.)
Adobe RGB does not have any more "information" than any other color space. 8 bits is 8 bits, no matter whose color space you are in. 8-bit Adobe RGB represents 16.7 million distinct colors, as does 8-bit sRGB or any other 8-bit color space. Where there are differences is in the width of the gamut of colors -- Adobe RGB does cover a wider chunk of the color spectrum; but by spreading those colors over the same distinct 16.7 million R, G, B bit combinations, it is less able to capture some of the tonal nuances within given colors. This is a classic reason why in portraiture -- where subtle variations in tonality in specific colors (i.e., flesh tones) are valued over vibrant colors -- sRGB is the preferred shooting space.
When you're converting an 8-bit image from one color space to another, you're not "compressing" anything. Your software is simply making its best effort to map the colors from one space into another. Adobe PhotoShop offers several methods for doing this. Each method makes certain "assumptions" about how colors should be mapped from one space to the other. The color profile conversion dialog offers little explanation about the differences in these methods ("perceptual," "relative colorimetric," etc.), but the color preferences dialog "advanced mode" gives a concise description of how these differ. It's good to be familiar with these if you are converting color spaces.
Same thing applies to 16-bit versions of these color spaces.
When you're going from a 16-bit to an 8-bit color space, that's where you're compressing data, and "losing" - rather than merely redefining - colors. But as you head off into the territory of the gajillions (technical term) of colors offered by a 16-bit color space, the level of subtlety is barely noticeable. It is noticeable, but barely.
It's also important to note that no physical device commonly used in photography (anybody's camera sensor, any printer, any monitor) corresponds to either Adobe RGB or sRGB. Each device has its own ability to reproduce a given number of distinct colors -- which is why we have .ICC profiles for devices, and why cameras can have "switchable" color spaces. When you shoot, the RAW data captured is exactly the same. If you tell the camera to shoot in Adobe, it simply takes the colors captured by the sensor and maps them -- according to an algorithm defined by the manufacturer that can be done any number of ways, much like the options in PhotoShop -- into that color space.
The reason sRGB looks better on your monitor (when displayed with an application that is not color managed, like most simple photo viewers) is that the color display capabilities of the typical video monitor are closer to sRGB than Adobe RGB. Likewise, at least with the Epson printers with which I am familiar, they are closer to Adobe RGB in terms of what they are able to produce. But in both of these cases, there is still a "conversion" process from the color space your image is in to the color space of the device, which is why software drivers, .ICC profiles, and color engines are all important.
Also remember that calibration is never perfect. Calibration simply combines the physical compensation your devices are capable of (color, contrast, and brightness controls) with software compensation to try and get all of your devices more or less talking the same "color" language. But it's a given, for some distinctly nuanced shade of one or more colors, for calibration to be "off" on one or more devices. And sometimes, they are colors that your monitor, no matter how accurately it is calibrated, is not physically capable of reproducing a color that your printer can, and vice versa. Usually we don't notice this, but some times, some colors just don't work right. |
|
David Harpe, Photographer
|
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 12:06 AM on 01.28.06 |
->> Take a peek at the Wiki on sRGB:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB_color_space
Notice the CIE diagram at the top. The thing to notice is that the gamut line for sRGB rides right through a big chunk of the purple/blue hues. This is probably why some of your uniforms wash out - they are slightly out-of-gamut and get remapped somewhere in the post-production change.
CMYK is even less forgiving in purple/blue. It's almost impossible to get a deep blue out of standard CMYK...
Dave |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 9:04 AM on 01.28.06 |
->> Good point David H...and everyone keep in mind that those diagrams of color spaces aren't continuous, or "solid." Imagine rather the object as a sort of cloud of mist...the colors represented are a collection of points within that space, with lots of colors in between not included. In an 8-bit image, there are 16.7 million infinitesimal points within an infinite number of colors possible to be produced within the space encompassed by each diagram.
Don't think about that longer than 15 seconds or your brain will implode... |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 01.28.06 |
->> Chuck:
If you you are shooting in ADOBE RGB and in RAW which gives you 16 bit of information and all you do is simply convert this to sRGB space when outputting your images to anything, because I do not know of one output device which uses ADOBE RGB you will be not much better than shooting sRGB straight out.
It is only if you post process and take advantage of the larger amount of data in RAW and in the ADOBE RGB and doing all of your changes to color, contrast, image size and so on before converting that you will definitely see a difference.
It is by doing all of this post processing in the larger gamut of color and bit depth which means you are working with more colors and information. The very last step should be converting and not assigning a profile of sRGB or even CMYK where you will benefit.
While it isn't so much "compressing" it is taking advantage of the color space and bit depth in post processing before actually throwing away a lot of the color space when you convert which means you have a better quality image than shooting in sRGB and then post processing. |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 9:00 AM on 03.02.06 |
->> Here's another possible solution to the "Color Purple" problem. I just bought a copy:
http://www.tribecalabs.com/
It works. And if you believe what their web site says, all of our pontificating about color spaces and whatnot are really just to compensate for the fact that our eyeballs don't have their own ICC profile. |
|
Rick Rowell, Photographer
|
Canoga Park | CA | Usa | Posted: 12:20 PM on 03.02.06 |
| ->> Thanks for that post Chuck. I checked out the site and I was impressed. I've been having the same problem with my Canon 1D and 1D mark II. At 49.00 dollars, how can you go wrong. Buy the plugin guys. Some day their will be a camera that see's all that your eye see's. Until then use this software. |
|
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|