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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Noise Ninja – and NEF files
Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 3:09 AM on 01.22.06 |
->> Help. I just started shooting RAW and am using a D70s and a D1X. I worked on a project last Monday and Tuesday and the light in the room was horrible so I used the D70s and I set the ISO at 1600. I used flash and the histogram looked perfect but when I opened them in PhotoShop they looked awful – very noisy. Yuck.
I am used to running files shot above 800 through Noise Ninja first and they always came out looking great. Well, I tried to run them through this time and NN says that NEF is an unrecognized file type. I couldn’t find any updates/upgrades newer than last summer on the NN website. I checked the archives here but didn't find anything current either. I thought I saw/read or heard somewhere where NN supported NEF now but can’t find the information or upgrade.
So, now what? I am still new at using CS2 and am not satisfied with what I know yet about noise reduction here either. I really want these photos to look better.
Can someone out there in SS land help? Please?
Thanks.
Dianna |
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Michael Coons, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | Ca | | Posted: 4:40 AM on 01.22.06 |
->> Dianna,
Are you trying to run the raw files through Noise Ninja? I didn't think Noise Ninja converted raw images. If the NEF files are not working I would convert them to Tiff then run Noise Ninja. If you are using ACR in CS2 then save the original as a Tiff before running NN. Depending on what version of NN you have you can then save it as a 16bit or 8bit Tiff or a jpeg if you wish. |
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Steven Georges, Photographer
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Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 3:21 PM on 01.22.06 |
->> I shoot RAW/NEF files 95% of the time, but the end result is still an RGB jpeg.
First I do everything I can to the RAW file. Overall - exposure, brightness, contrast, color balance, and sharpness. Then I open it in PhotoShop and do the rest in 16-bit-per-ch RGB, including Noise Ninja. The last step is 8-bit and save. Saving a 16-bit photo for future use is an option but the files are big.
If you want to apply noise reduction to your RAW/NEF file, Nikon Capture has a noise reduction tool as does Apple's Aperture. I haven't tried noise reduction in either program yet so I don't know how it compares to Noise Ninja.
If anyone hears of an update to Noise Ninja that works with RAW files let me know, I would be interested in that. |
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Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 2:38 AM on 01.23.06 |
->> Ok, all you experts out there . . . thanks for bearing with me while I ask my basic and possibly dumb questions. I don't happen to be in school right now -- and when I was, it wasn't at a PJ school. I also don't have the luxury of anyone helping me learn this stuff or feeding me great tips. I'm kind of doing the self-study thing. Gee -- what else is new. :o)
I think what's making this hard is that I have so many options (many of which are still new to me) and no definite workflow established yet.
It also makes it hard to ask intelligent questions when I don't know what questions I need to ask.
I am used to using Photo Mechanic to view the photos and tag my selects. If they needed noise reduction then I would select the image in PM and drag it to the Noise Ninja icon on the desktop to open it there, get rid of the noise and then do a "save as" in NN saving it to the desktop. It would show up as a file with "filtered" included in the file name. Then I'd drag that to the PhotoShop CS icon (also on the desktop) to open it in PS and to tone and sharpen it before saving the final as a Tiff. The files ALWAYS looked much better after doing that. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been doing it.
So now, I'm trying to get used to shooting RAW/NEF and I just upgraded my PS to CS2. So far I haven't found anything that works as well as the old method. Yet.
I'm still reading the new Scott Kelby PS CS2 for Digital Photographers and trying to also study what is written in the Adobe Help center -- And I haven't even STARTED to figure out PS Bridge yet. Sigh.
The recent photos were the first ones that have needed noise reduction since I started to shoot raw.
So, after playing around with this, I will:
* Not make any adjustments in Adobe Camera Raw (other than slide the sharpening to 0) and just open them in CS2.
* Convert the file to a Tiff and then open it in Noise Ninja and make the adjustments.
* Reopen in CS2 to tone and sharpen.
The difference in the file that I tried to reduce the noise in ACR first and then tone and save (without NN) and the one I ran through Noise Ninja (after converting to tiff) is really noticeable. Noise Ninja just plain works.
Thanks Jim & John for the helpful email and to Michael and Steven for offering your help by posting to the thread. Michael, you were right on about NN not converting NEF files and that I should convert them to tiffs first. Steven I'm not sure anything out there can beat Noise Ninja.
I hope this thread helps others trying to figure this stuff out on their own. And, of course, if anyone can add to this thread PLEASE do.
Dianna |
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Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 2:47 AM on 01.23.06 |
->> Steven, I just re-read your post and will try what you said about doing everything to the RAW file before converting it to tiff and running it through NN.
I need to know more about the 8 bit and 16 bit and I saw that option in ACR and am going to find out more about that.
You can see the difference in the photos here:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/fstopnews/cs2_nef_nn/index.html
Dianna |
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Jim Burgess, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | US | Posted: 8:05 AM on 01.23.06 |
->> Diana,
It sounds like you are using the stand-alone version of Noise Ninja. If so, consider the PS plug-in version since it makes the process easier. The plug-in version doesn't care what format a file is once it's loaded in PS. So for RAW files, the process is (1) load and convert in ACR, (2) apply the Noise Ninja filter, and (3) continue with whatever PS editing is required, then save the image in whatever format you need. I've also found you can perform adjustments in ACR, and still get good results with the Noise Ninja filter.
Jim |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 01.23.06 |
->> "First I do everything I can to the RAW file. Overall - exposure, brightness, contrast, color balance, and sharpness. Then I open it in PhotoShop and do the rest in 16-bit-per-ch RGB, including Noise Ninja. The last step is 8-bit and save."
Everything is fine in this work-flow, except for the sharpening step.
If this order is used, then the noise is being sharpened which alters the image and noise characteristics in it.
Noise reduction software like Noise Ninja relies on pre-determined characteristics of the camera's noise output at a given ISO and it's not going to work its best if the image's pixels have changed.
You're better off running the noise reduction first so the software has a chance to do its magic, then do the resizing, toning and tweaking, finishing up with a sharpening step. Getting rid of the noise first means that the following steps aren't enlarging noise (if you're zooming in).
Arbitrarily applying noise reduction isn't a good idea too. While the apps all have their special tricks to get the job done, the final effect looks like smoothing has been applied unless you take special steps to return some of the detail lost. I often apply noise reduction to a duplicate layer, then use masks or opacity to adjust how much of that noise-reduced layer is visible.
And, sharpening isn't always a good idea if you are handing images off to someone who is in charge of prepping them for printing. Your image could suffer badly if it's inadvertently sharpened, resized or toned again before going to press. I ask my customers whether they want me to adjust the image, and how much, before I send a file to avoid those situations.
I don't remember for sure about this last point because we had a long drive home last night, but I think it was Noise Ninja that checked the EXIF information, plus the size of the file, to automatically determine the camera profile to use. It was thrown off if the image had been cropped, so I turned off the image dimension check in the prefs to force it to use only the EXIF info. That helped its accuracy when cleaning noisy images, and sped up the reduction step because it had a smaller image to chew on. |
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Steven Georges, Photographer
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Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 2:54 PM on 01.23.06 |
->> Greg - When I apply overall sharpening in the RAW file is just a minor amount, equivalent to minor amount in the camera. In a perfect world I would never need any sharpening. Any real amount of sharpening is done in PS and only to selections of the photo. This is the second to last thing I do to a photo. Noise Ninja (if necessary) is added last. Keep in mind I shoot with an original D2h.
Don't get me wrong, I'm always careful not to over sharpen. I'm also always looking at the end published result to see if what I'm doing works.
I'll check out that "dimension check" you talked about;.
Dianna - Jim is right, the PS plug-in is the way to go. This allows you to apply Noise Ninja as the last step. From what I recall, the Noise Ninja User Guide says to use Noise Ninja as your last step.
I like to do whatever I can to the RAW file before opening it in PhotoShop. Opinions of other photographers may vary, I respect that. |
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Jim Burgess, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | US | Posted: 5:48 PM on 01.23.06 |
->> Dianna,
You should also check out what Vincent Laforet has to say about Noise Ninja in this news article (pointed out to me by fellow SS member Mike Weimar):
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1415
Vincent's comments about using Noise Ninja for sharpening instead of unsharp mask are pretty interesting. I've tried it, and it does work better on some images. OTOH, unsharp mask seems to work better on others.
(Sorry about the previous name typo, BTW)
Jim |
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Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 1:57 AM on 01.24.06 |
->> Thanks for your imput Greg. For some of my personal projects I don't know how the photos will be used later so I don't really have anyone to ask how much processing they want. I have just started archiving both the NEF file and a processed file.
After testing out the order in which I run NN and sharpen, I think it is definitely best to do NN first before *anything* else especially sharpening.
Jim, I am a regular reader of the SS newsletter and I don't know how I missed that gem but I did. Thanks for posting that link. I have been turning the sharpening in NN off but will check out some of the settings Vincent mentioned in the article.
I only use NN when there is obvious noise and will continue starting with that step first, and then tone and sharpen last. If NN isn't needed then I have been using despeckle as my noise reduction.
I always convert the image mode to Lab Color (Image, Mode, Lab Color) before using any filters like despeckle or unsharp mask then I fade unsharp mask before switching back to RGB color as the final step before saving the photo.
I'm not sure what the differences in the plug-in and the stand alone version of NN are. I am definitely going to upgrade it though and know without a doubt Noise Ninja is valuable.
Thanks for all the feedback and help, guys.
Dianna
Jim, no problem about the typo -- people spell my name wrong all the time. :o| |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 4:39 AM on 01.24.06 |
->> I save the toned/adjusted .psd and original file together also. I don't open the original jpg and save it out again as jpg because that causes it to degrade. Once it's opened it becomes a .psd for further saves and I do a drag-copy for the original file.
Converting to LAB causes additional computations and actually messes with the quality of the image so don't do it unnecessarily. Simpler is almost always better - the fewer manipulations the better.
I used to use despeckle or the other filters, then I decided it made more sense to run noise-reduction on a layer-copy of the image and selectively mask it in. There is a lot of detail in the noise that gets stomped on by all/any of the noise reduction algorithms, and you can recover some of that by blending the two layers together. Layering and masking is what Photoshop is all about after all. |
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Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 6:55 AM on 01.24.06 |
->> Greg,
I was told that sharpening is best done in LAB mode using the lightness layer because it only affects the monochrome data and not the color data. And you don't get weird color shifts.
I forgot to mention that when I go into the LAB mode I also click Command/1 to get to the lightness layer -- it changes the image look from color to monochrome. Then I do the despeckle and unsharp mask/fade unsharp mask and then go back to RGB. |
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Dianna Russell, Photographer
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 7:10 AM on 01.24.06 |
| ->> That's why this stuff is so hard . . . there are so many ways to do the same thing. Thanks for sharing. |
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Jim Owens, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | usa | Posted: 4:53 PM on 01.24.06 |
->> Good follow up, Diana.
Thanks.
Jim |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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