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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
And there's the rub...
Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
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Las Vegas | NV | USA | Posted: 10:12 PM on 11.16.05 |
| ->> Re: Major newspaper selling reprints thread. There's the sports shooters on this board who work for publications: newspapers, wire agencies, magazines, etc; and the sports shooters who do "event photography," who sell to individuals and what have you. I am not disparaging the group that I do not belong to- however, it does seem as if the event photographers etc have pretty much taken over this site. This thread is a good example of that. Honestly, I don't come visit anywhere near as much as I used to, have not updated in ages, and I see very few of the familiar faces that drew me to this site in the first place around here lately. Again, this is in no way meant to offend the event sports shooters, they have a right to make a buck and do thier job just as much as any of us. Its just not the sportsshooter.com that it used to be for the rest of us, who seem to have lost interest. Believe me, I thank God every day that I am lucky enough to have a job where I get paid to go out and do every day what I love to be doing! Sure beats work. PS: I am no longer in Las Vegas, now at the South Florida Sun-Sentinel and finally today the city picked up the last of our big tree blown over by Wilma! |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 11:24 PM on 11.16.05 |
| ->> Your point? |
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Matt Miller, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 1:33 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> i can't speak for joe. it seems that the site is becoming geared more toward students and non-editorial shooters. this probably started a long time ago--likely before i joined. i know some of the shooters i look up to have quit ss.com, or they have ceased to be involved on the site. and that is a shame because i enjoyed getting some feedback and thoughts from those people. i know that at least a couple of them still check out the site now and again, though (every once in a while i get an e-mail from one of them).
i guess that is bound to happen when a group grows. and it is not an entirely bad thing. more shooters are becoming more educated (we hope).
heck, i still get some freelance calls from editors who notice my work. and this is a great way for me to share pictures with a few friends and family. i plan on paying my membership.
this has also been a great way to see work from other shooters in my region (like the columbia daily tribune folks).
and in case my point is not clear--things change. some folks might benefit from the changes, others might not.
matt |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 1:47 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> Joe --
SS is "SportsShooter", not "staffsportsshooter". The dialog about selling reprints, I think, is of critical importance to all sports photographers, whether staff, or freelance. So often, the refrain I hear from sports photographers (ESPECIALLY high school game assigned sports photographers) is that there's no value after the paper's been published, to their work, so who cares if it's a work for hire job?
Newspapers have a right to exploit (and I mean that in the dictionary.com 1st definition " To employ to the greatest possible advantage") their assets to which they own, or have rights. Reprints of articles which appear in publication was the first way. Wire versions of text and photos to the AP for non-competing market publications was the second, online versions to news aggregators is one of the latest. Even the Washington Post now sells the photos they have rights to through a third party reseller http://pictopia.com/perl/gal?provider_id=25 as does the New York Times through their online store - http://www.nytstore.com/ProdCode.aspx?prodcode=791 both of which are links from their front page.
In fact, your new employer sells photos, and quite possibly your photos (well, you took them, but they're not yours) at this link: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/services/sfl-service-photo,0,1358037.htmlstory
Where is says: "Photographs are provided for personal enjoyment of the purchaser. The Sun-Sentinel DOES NOT grant the purchaser or any person who subsequently receives this print a license to use this photograph for any purpose...
All photos are copyright 2002 Sun-Sentinel Company, all rights reserved. Photographs may not be reproduced in any manner for any purpose without the prior written consent of the Sun-Sentinel Company. This copyright statement will be stamped on the back of each photo you purchase...To request permission to use a photo for other purposes, please call: (954) 356-4764....We do not make available photos taken by non-staff photographers. We also cannot make available photographs of professional sports and celebrities."
The thread you're objecting to includes numerous comments about SS members who are staffers, and whom want to get a cut of the action (uh, that's called your salary!) and it quite appropriate for SS'ers, especially staffers, to be enlightened as to how much their work is worth, and for freelancers to understand just once more why they should not sign WFH agreements (see the Sentinel's note above about not selling non-staff images, guess the WFH contracts for freelancers have not made it to your paper -- yet), so that freelancers will be less prone to sell out for $200 a game for WFH.
I disagree that event sports photographers have taken over SS, I think that there is a wide array of discussion and debate about all things sports-photography-related...it's just of value to pick the right threads that peak your interest.
John |
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Thomas Boyd, Photographer
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> I feel similar to Joe. The relationship between editorial shooters and event shooters seems to have become as strained as still and video.
On one hand, I've learned a lot from discussions about event photography. On the other hand, it's not that interesting to me. I find all the conflicts about access to high school venues, contract disputes, difficult parents, price undercutting all the other issues sickening. If I were a photographer dealing with that stuff, I'd quite and go drive truck or something. That's not why I shoot photos, and it's not something I want to spend my time reading about.
Not only are the business issues completely different than editorial, the aesthetic considerations are on the other side of the planet. Not only do I hate reading about event photography, I hate looking at it. I'm sorry to say that, but when I click on a photographer and see event photography...I'm gone. I'd rather look at Auto Trader.
Our ethics are completely different. We don't set up photos. I've seen event photographers ask kids to hold up their finger with the number one sign as they exit the field.
Having said that, Eugene has some excellent event photographers and I don't ever recall having a conflict with any of them. Of course, none of them have suggested my paper pay a fee to cover a game.
Nevertheless, I still spend time on Sportsshooter looking at the classifieds, message boards, galleries, stories and contests. There are still plenty of areas on this site that are useful to me.
I just hope that all the event photography chatter doesn't push away too many photojournalists. |
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Hal Smith, Photographer
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Emporia | KS | USA | Posted: 2:24 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> Thomas, Matt, and Joe,
Thank you for saying with some tact, what I've been feeling for a very long time. It's people like you guys that alot of us are inspired by and aspire to be like.
I miss some of the early discussions about the ethics and ethos of finding the image, not the technical stuff that should have been learned before venturing into any professional sector of photography.
Thanks again.
Hal |
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Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
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Las Vegas | NV | USA | Posted: 8:54 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> This was not meant to be Staff vs. Freelance, or Student vs. Professional.
Jean asks, whats the point?
In a recent case we are all familiar with, a prominent university SID asked two students to take down thier game photos- somehow they got the impression that this is a commercial site.
The point is: spend a few minutes reading the message board and you can understand why people who are not on our side of the lens might make that mistake. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:25 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> I realy do not understand this "tension" between event sports photographers and editorial sports photographers. When I have done editorial assignments I have not run into any event photographers. Similarly, when I have been shooting youth sports tournaments and similar events I have not run into any editorial photographers.
Competition tends to breed the variety of tension that is being described here, but if the two groups are not covering the same events then where is the competition and why is there a conflict? |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:29 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> I don't think anyone group or genre of shooters has 'taken over' this site, Joe.
There are a wide assortment of photographers who are members. People either choose to become involved in an online discussion or may not have the time or inclination to voice their opinion or impart their knowledge on a particular topic. In this case, we are just seeing more from event shooters and photojournies.
Yes, there a lot more students than in the early years of SS. That is a bad thing. Because these are the young men and women who might be taking dollars out of our pockets, working for or along side some of us, or if they are dedicated enough become the next Rick Rickman, John Harrington, Hanashiro, Vincent Laforet, or Steven E. Frischling. It is scary because I seen the work of several student's work, like Scott Bort, improve by leaps and bounds in just a short period of time. May be the reason to have students here is to help create a better tomorrow for the thing that many of us photographers enjoy doing everyday.
While the original thread (for newcomers to the topic here are the two links - http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18188 and http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=18229) - turn into an "event photographer vs news photographer debate" the original focus of the thread was questioning 'should newspapers sell prints from the events they cover'.
I honestly think we need to see just as much discussion on the business end of photography as well as that on the technical side of the house.
Unfortunately, one genetic trait shared by nearly every talented, successful photographer that I have ever met is our fierce independence in thought, creative direction, and business practice. Think about it can you count on more than one and the number of businesses that provide photography services that are partnerships or small company with more than a single working principle owner. Locally, I personally only know of one and they have been together for almost 20 years.
The way we did, do, and will do business as photographers is evolving and thanks to technology at a faster pace than the entire history of the form of communication and art. I count on two hand photographers and suppliers here locally who failed to embrace technology for whatever reason and now are suffering the consequences of not staying close to the cutting edge by updating business practices and using technology to stay at the top of their game. I don't know about you folks but that is not the shoes I want to be in if I can ever help it.
Thankfully, Sportsshooter and many of the open discussions on the message board (what few there are before the become a pissing matches) about business practices in the industry have been helpful in that regard. It would be awesome to have 'Think Tank' discussions and discourses on a regular basis on business practices with many of the members whose writing I've come not necessarily agree with, but highly respect. Some day I might make that happen. In the mean time, I look forward to seeing more meaningful discussion from all members regardless of the path they follow in the photo industry. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 10:43 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> Michael,
I'm not taking sides on this issue since I fall into the category of photographers who do both editorial and event work. But, I think that there is a growing issue (I won't call it conflict)because the two "sides" are indeed covering the same events.
Not too many years ago, the only photographers on the sidelines of a game were editorial. Over the last 5 years, the business of selling game photos has probably grown 10,000 percent. Now, everyone wants a piece of the action. And, like all professions, there are a number of uneducated(in this field), cut-throat, hackers who are making the honest,hard-working, professional event photographers look bad....and taking up way too much space on the sidelines...and maybe most importantly, causing AD's to look with a jaundiced eye at ALL photographers.
The over-abundance of event photographers has school officials thinking that there must be a lot of money since so many are wanting to shoot, so they want a cut. What they don't know, or understand, is that a large percentage of these so-called event photographers are fly-by-night hackers who are looking for a free sideline pass and being able to call themselves a photographer.
Most of the event photographers that I see on SS seem to be of the professional or at least semi-professional variety. I don't think that any pro shooters, whether editorial or event, have trouble working side by side. The dividing line, to me, is those who can produce great images and those who can't. If the articles and message board on SS can educate a few of the not-so-professional type shooters as to what we are all really about then we are all better off.
None of us agrees with everything that we read on SS. None of us are "attracted" to all subjects discussed on SS. But, overall, it is still the best place around to share information and learn from our peers.
Mike |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:44 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> Clark writes:
>>> Because these are the young men and women who might be taking dollars out of our pockets
Amen. Here's the REAL RUB:
The students (especially the students) have come to SS exactly because it is a forum where those that they admire, and aspire to shoot alongside (and therefore, essentially compete with) gather to debate their issues, and answer questions.
If Joe and the rest of those folks who are the objects of admiration and aspiration leave SS, then the forum will dwindle a bit, but remain. And those that remain will be without the solid advise that so many seek here about how to properly negotiate with an SID, how to handle other business matters, and as a result, the business of sports photogaphy (and yes, that MEANS staff sports shooters, freelance sports shooters, contract sports shooters, and commercial/event sports shooters) will slide further downhill than it has already.
So, if you don't metaphorically turn around and offer a hand to those coming up behind you, and who admire you, don't complain when you're eating their dust, why they don't turn and help you, and why your ability to remain in your job, or compete for the jobs they are taking for pennies on the dollar (because you didn't help teach them to know better) is affected.
I strongly urge all photographers making a living doing so, to help as many other up and coming photographers so that everyone benefits.
John |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 11:55 AM on 11.17.05 |
->> If staffers and other editorial photographers feel that others have taken over, or that there is nothing interesting for them to read or contribute to, there is a simple solution: http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_start.html
Say what's on your mind.
Yes, I wish Bill Frakes and others of his ilk were still around, but I can't make anyone participate. I think many of the perceived changes around here are as much a result of the sheer number of members as anything else.
The message board is like a cocktail party. There are numerous conversations going on at once; to listen and participate in any one conversation takes more effort and focus than a one-on-one in a quiet office. That's the nature of any forum where people gather. There are two types of people at cocktail parties: those who mix and mingle, and those to stand quietly along the wall and stare at their drinks.
I have no problem with people who choose to stand quietly, but for them to suddenly burst into the middle of the room and complain about the topics of conversation seems a bit rude and arrogant. |
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John Kavouris, Photographer
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Bartlett | IL | US | Posted: 12:20 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> I tend to agree with Joe. There seems to be a more tense tone on the message boards lately, but I don’t think it’s editorial vs. event shooters. I think it’s because of general frustration over the state of the industry.
The noose around photographers’ necks is getting tighter and tighter. If there’s tension on the message board it’s because a lot of us are stressed. Stressed about copyright issues, freeloading clients, low fees, bird flu, lawyers, unreasonable media relations people, how the hell we’re going to pay for that new D2X, lawyers, the guy with a digital camera giving away his low-quality shots for free just to say he’s been published, and lawyers. As I write this, the five threads on the SS front page are about problems in the industry. Not much good news out there. Did I mention the [beeping] lawyers?
We’ve beaten some issues to death. We all should know by now that registering your photos with the US Copyright Office is good. Giving away photos is bad. Maybe there should be a short test as a condition of membership. Are there too many SportsShooter members?
Here’s a poll idea:
What do you think is the greatest threat to the future of quality photojournalism?
I will now vacate my soapbox.
XXXOOO |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 12:33 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> "The message board is like a cocktail party."
Interesting point, Dave -- I almost agree, except that I've yet to attend a cocktail party where the conversations turn as nasty as they often do here; or, people lob rude remarks and insults with the same flippancy.
And that's exactly why I don't participate in the boards much (and after posting this, don't think I will any more) -- people are *way* to quick to be rude to each other, and I think it has a lot to do with the nature of the medium; I think it's just to easy to cross the line from the comfort of your office chair. I've said it countless times before, but I often wonder how many of the things that get said on here would materialize were we all talking face-to-face.
In that sense, it's the disingenuous nature of some on here that keeps me away, and not necessarily the person's professional background. That said, I do agree with Joe, Matt et al. It's nothing short of incredible how much this site as changed in the last couple of years. For the good in some cases, and for the bad in others.
Respectfully,
- gerry - |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Some will attend only the most exclusive cocktail parties. We can't force them to make an appearance.
On the flipside, a respected mentor once told me "life's too short to work with a$$holes." If Gerry, Bill and the rest of the dearly departed have left the board, I have to believe that they are still sharing their knowledge with others, just in a different way. |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 2:05 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Joe,
New to Florida eh??? ...........I will be polite and say "Welcome to my State, everyone doesn't always get along but as a Florida Native, call me with any questions or concerns and I will try my best to help in any way that I can."
Peace |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> I like Dave's analogy to the cocktail party. I do think that the rude remarks and insults are just as prevelant...it's just that they are done from across the room, behind the back, or in the bathroom.
One of the downsides of the internet is that people seem to be more brazen under the cloak of anonymity. I'm not saying that people shouldn't say what they mean but I think that a little more diplomacy could sometimes be used.
It's one thing to get on a soapbox on a message board from the privacy of your home...it's quite another to voice the same opinion, out loud, at that cocktail party and have to directly, and in a civilized manner, defend your opinions.
One other part to this thought. No one likes to be wrong. We all believe that our opinion is the right one....at least mine always is :). If we are going to put our opinions out there for discussion then we need to be prepared to have those opinions disputed.
Mike |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 2:42 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Joe, thank you for so politely expressing views that I know a lot of people have and have not posted them.
Dave, the cocktail party analogy kind of works. But when this cocktail party started, almost everybody was participating in conversations. The bigwigs talked with the students, and there was a free-flow of ideas. But then some people at the party started drinking too much, their courage increased, and they became too big for their britches. Some people became offended and went to the valet, got their cars and drove home. But others at the party stuck around, but moved to the outside wall where they could privately whisper to each other, out of earshot of the groups of people in the middle of the room. Some of them are now going back into the middle of the room to say that they're tired of what is going on at the party. This party is one that is bordering on being out of control, and sooner or later, the neighbors are going to call the cops. |
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Alicia Wagner Calzada, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Well, I haven't been partaking much lately at this cocktail party, but in regards to the initial issue of a conflict between the two types of photogs, I can tell you that a couple of weeks ago I went to shoot a feature photo at a band competition. They welcomed me in. Then things turned squirrely. The organizers told me I couldn't stand on the field because of the contract they had with Jolesch Photography as exclusive photographers on the field. They were steadfast that I couldn't be there on the field and started to get ugly. So I left. No skin off my back. I got a great feature on the other side of town.
That band competition probably didn't need free publicity from my newspaper, but it was clear they had made their choice. And frankly I have too many other important battles to fight than wether or not I can shoot a feature of a band competition. |
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Brendan Smialowski, Photographer
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Washington | DC | United States | Posted: 3:17 PM on 11.17.05 |
| ->> Mike's point is right on. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 3:18 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> first off let me say when i saw the name of this thread when it started yesterday i thought it was about barbecue.
its seems there is a cycle here that started more than a year ago and is continuing to repeat itself with more and more frequency. it started, back then, with a heated, and somewhat rude, discussion on the message boards. the SS gods got fed up and yanked the open membership for a more exclusive, sponsor-based membership in hopes to maintain a level of professionalism. it hasn't exactly worked out that way.
as Gerry mentioned already, members here are quick to be rude and say things across the distance created by their computers that i'm sure they wouldn't normally say to someone's face. more and more these days i catch myself rolling my eyes or shaking my head when i read the responses posted here.
the debate that spawned this thread has no end. the event shooters are soley in it for the money and the editorial shooters are soley in it for their love and passion for photojournalism and could care less one way or the other if their papers stopped selling photos. but preceding an insult to another member with "all due respect" isn't being respectful and has no place on the message boards. if you feel you must be rude and disrespectful then send a personal email, or better yet, be the man you feel you are and call the other member up, most members have their phone numbers listed on their member pages, and say it like you mean it.
i'll keep coming back. i love this site. but something's gotta give with the some of the b.s. that said here. maybe we need two rooms at this "cocktail party." an editorial room and an event room.
marc |
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Matthew Rosenberg, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 3:57 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> I agree with Marc in that this thread has no end. Well at least until it reaches fifty, but the debate will remain.
Maybe a change in tone is needed at this point. It has been established that there are disrespectful people on the boards. It is easy to be negative towards other members. There are many people on here from different fields of photography with different motives.
Personally, I think one of the most unique features of this board is that there is only one "message board". Most other sites have various groups and divisions to their boards. One for Photoshop, another for press photographers and so on. I am not going to get all Dick Vermeil about it, but this is one of the few places where we all come together. I have learned a lot about the business side of this industry from event togs and inspired by their work. My work has benefited from seeing all of the great sports photographers. When I was hired at my current job I didn't know a damn thing about sports photography. People come and go, and I wish them them he best but let's remember that none of us are perfect and can improve. Dividing up the member base is going to serve nobody.
If so many people are unhappy then there need to be changes. I don't know what they are now and I have to go to work. |
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jeff martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 4:30 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Being primarily an event shooter, allow me to share a few thoughts. They may come out a bit jumbled and are ment to show respect to all of you. I joined this site a couple of years ago after lurking for a couple of months. I'm still amazed that the work I submitted got by the membership com. I have no formal photography education. Just what I can read and pick up here and thru trail and error. I've asked my share of beginner questions on this site. Thankfully, someone, usually several of you, have given me direction/criticism/advice. Many of the threads concern things I've never experienced. I have learned by simply following the discussion. I usually read the editorial shooter threads with intrest. There are a lot of cross over issues affecting all of us. I guess my point is...Those of you who take the time to share your knowledge make a huge difference. Not just to me, but to the vast majority of members who almost never post. I am an air traffic controller who shoots because I enjoy it. Due to this site, I don't give my work away. Last year I grossed about $20k from shooting. My net, probably close to zero. I have to turn down alot of work due to limited time and when I don't think I up to the job.
Most of us act nicely on here. Sometimes tempers flare or people forget that this medium does not convey tone or expression very well. If you are joking, it had best be very clear.
Anyhow, for all of you that have taken time to help me or anyone else, THANKS.
Jeff |
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Jason Smith, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 4:39 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> I can not comment on the state of the board prior to my arrival (about a month ago). I can say from experience that typically forums revolve in cycles. The discussions begins to become less informative and more a expression of beliefs and views. Then cycle will repeat itself.
On the topic of school...........While I am not in school, I am still a student.
I will always be a student.
For Sale: One slightly used soap box........half price till Saturday......$.02
Jason |
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Paul W Gillespie, Photographer
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Annapolis | MD | USA | Posted: 5:38 PM on 11.17.05 |
| ->> In the words of Rodney King "Can't we all just get along". |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 6:02 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> If all you want is a separate forum for print PJ, or whatever interests you, it's pretty easy to set one up, and it's free.
proboards.com |
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Rick Rickman, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 8:53 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Well, I've been at the cocktail party driniking my butt into a stupor because my ride left me after he got his nose out of joint from the discussion in the middle of the room.
I decided that free drinks are free drinks and if a bunch of who-haws want to have a fight in the middle of the room then that's ok with me cause it just leave more for me to drink.
Good information can be gleaned from anywhere and sometimes it's just necessary to lay low and out of sight or range of the bottle throwing ugly drunks. My only suggestion is for the hosts to bring a little more Makers Mark out so I can continue to get sloshed in style.
Rick Rickman |
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Justin Casalandra, Photographer
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Cuyahoga Falls | OH | USA | Posted: 9:04 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> well put rr. its a sad state of affairs.
justin c. |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 11.17.05 |
| ->> Come on Rick. Lets grab some bottles and go sit in the corner and eat all their peanuts and popcorn. Maybe Napoleon Dynamite will be on cable. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 11.17.05 |
| ->> It is truly amazing....after all that I've learned about this business and protecting my images and just when I think I can't learn one more thing from Rick Rickman, he comes along, albeit drunk, and teaches me the correct spelling of "who-haw". |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:45 PM on 11.17.05 |
->> Marc writes:
>>>the event shooters are soley in it for the money and the editorial shooters are soley in it for their love and passion for photojournalism...
HOG WASH! Event shooters don't have the luxury of a staff job which pays the bills...they actually have to quantify expenses and income, and make more than they spend, after taxes. Editorial staffers who take side work for less than they could survive off of were that there only source of income, just for a few extra bucks in their pocket are doing THAT work just for the money, without regard for the love and passion of photography.
Marc's comment in the original thread read, in part:
>>>the photos are sold...generates a nice chunk of change...it's just too bad we, the photo staff, currently don't see a cent of it.
Which suggests that you feel somewhat cheated out of those sales. Imagine how the freelancer who's trying to make rent feels when that "chunk of change" the paper makes, doesn't make it to their rent, because Stephens Media (your paper's owner), who's #140 on the Forbes 400 richest people's list with a net worth of 1.4B wants to make a few MORE dollars off of the backs Bentonville freelancers.
Consider Janet Hudson and Jason Schroder (http://www.hudsonschroederfreelance.com), of Hudson Schroeder in your hometown, who do events (among many other things) in Bentonville. Janet, when commenting on her work as a photographer (with a colleage degree in photography) writes: "Janet understands very few people in life are blessed enough to have their occupation be their passion, joy, and talent and it is with this appreciation that she approaches each photographic assignment." Now that's someone in it for the money, huh?
While you may think that the Morning News is some altrustic organization, in it "for the love and passion of photojournalism", think again. Your paper's owners also run LasVegas.com and OnlineGaming.com, as well as numerous other financial holdings, all designed to make a bottom line profit. THEY ARE soley in it for the money, and since you work for them...well, you're either in that same boat, or an unwitting tool for them to increase their bottom line...in this case, on the backs of your fellow sideline freelancers.
So, you'd do well to shoot what's important at the games your assigned, and not shoot a whole lot of generic images of players -- that'll undoubtedly cut into your sideline colleague's income. Do them that little favor, so they can continue, in Janet's words, to be "blessed enough to have their occupation be their passion, joy, and talent". In the eyes of your publisher, you're an event guy too.
Go Janet. |
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john taggart, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 11:58 PM on 11.17.05 |
| ->> i love this site |
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Nick Layman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Albuquerque | NM | | Posted: 12:07 AM on 11.18.05 |
->> Not to long ago I joined this site by the sponsorship of Patrick Murphy-Racey and looked forward to the wealth of knowledge to gain from this site. I have gained tons of information from this site don’t get me wrong. But, I have noticed lately the message board has turned into a free for all. There is so many off topic posts. Such as going to this funny video or talking about other photographers ability to go to different places.
I am very blessed to have this site and go to a seasoned photographer for advice or just some critiques. I have found that the posts are never really answered and people are fighting than answering the question. There has been glasses flying, on this site for quite some time with cocktail glass. I think people should think before they post and really ask the question will this just be a grin and giggle or really benefit a photographer. Given sometimes we need a photo laugh but I find the message board is cluttered.
I am glad Joe posted his comments and I wish him the best at the Sun-Sentinel and I had the opportunity to meet him at the NCAA Sweet 16 in Albuquerque. I felt so honored to meet him and ask him questions. He pushed me to the limits during the game and had me get my first freelance gig with AP.
Its our responsibility as members to get this neighborhood cleaned up. Have an AA meeting for this cocktail party. I know a couple photographers that have stopped posting because of how out of hand it has gotten. We can clean this up and get more productive discussions going and have more people contribute. By no means I am perfect on my posts but the first step is admission. 11 steps to go. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Tempe | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 11.18.05 |
->> Like so many posts I have been reading lately, like the times I put my face in the wind and breathe deeply, Evolution is coming. Photography is on the knife edge of a change and the way we do it...and survive a career in doing it.
Like or not, the environment we dreamed about growing up and even starting out in is dying. A new breed is emerging and we have to evolve with it. If not, you won't survive. When I got my first newspaper job ten years ago, I swore never to do "weddings" or "events" or the like.
But now, that is how I support my family. And I reached deep inside myself to even like it. I would love to live the life travelling around the world telling stories and getting supported nicely to do it. but that is quickly becoming an endangered species and complaining won't solve anything. Just accept it. |
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Jim Comeau, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 2:20 AM on 11.18.05 |
->> I haven't shot a sporting event in about a year. I haven't worked for a publication in about as long. However, I am a photographer who has shot a decent amount of sports in my 2 year stint here. But I have seen a few of the quarrels and changes and have made a few observations.
"SportsShooter.com is an online community and resource for sports photographers and other working photojournalists." From the About SportsShooter.com page, I figured that this is an area where we all come together and learn. Young learn from old and vice versa.
It's amazing who qualifies as a "Student/Intern"; some should be classified as "Ringers". Some of the most amazing photographers here are students. Also, 3 of the top 10 in the clip contest are full-time freelancers. Does that make them any better or worse? No.
If SportsShooter was made up of all the same types of people, would it be as good as it is? Possibly but I highly doubt it.
There are now over 5000 members (based on member IDs of the newest members) so its obvious that there are going to be differences of opinion. I see it as thousands of people from whom I can learn. |
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john taggart, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 8:27 AM on 11.18.05 |
->> This site provides what no other site does "community" we can all post messages, watch videos, and look at what other people are shooting everyday.
Personally i am very glad there is such a diverse group of shooters on here.
The amount of education, community and spirit i get from here is great, from when i get back from an assignment and i have a minute to read the headlines on yahoo then clicking over to read what todays big message board topics are on here.
ups and downs come and go with just about any type of online forum, i use to moderate and manage a few (for music), so i can only imagine what ss.com forum admins are going thru on a daily basis.
-- tags |
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Kevin Udahl, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 12:18 PM on 11.18.05 |
->> Many, many moons ago, I joined SportsShooter when it was an upstart email newsletter. At that time I was a university student pursuing a photojournalism career. I was also working (as a freelancer) for the local papers when I wasn't in class. I looked forward to the newsletter every month to see what some of the working pros were doing, and how they were doing it! It was a valuable resource, and I took what I could from it. It was, perhaps, more valuable than most of the photojournalism classes I took years before. Now, I am a staff photographer for a major Canadian daily newspaper, and although I won't suggest SportsShooter was the main reason for my development, it was significant. The point is, we all have to start somewhere.
I still look forward to the monthly articles on SportsShooter. They are equally as informative, and entertaining, as they were back then. And they are still geared towards the media photojournalist. The difference now is that SportsShooter has evolved as technology has evolved. The message boards are just one part of that. I have to admit that event sports photography was, and still is, the last thing on my mind when I visit the site and the message boards. I can't help but think that it was also the last thing on the minds of the creators of this site as well. Nevertheless, like anything else, change is inevitable no matter what the subject is. I guess it's a matter of having more choices now. It's just getting harder and harder to sort though it all... particularly when it comes to the internet. I am of like mind to Joe Cavaretta in the desire for more informative discussion about photojournalism issues, and less about event sports photography. I like the idea of having another room for media photography issues and another for event sports photography issues. Similar to Rob Galbraith's site which has it's message boards divided into many specific categories. I think it's worth discussing. |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 1:30 PM on 11.18.05 |
| ->> I don't drink. I just hang around for the donuts. |
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Sue Jarrett, Photographer
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Beaufort | SC | USA | Posted: 9:38 AM on 11.19.05 |
->> I started out working parttime at a small newspaper. I shot everything that was on that day's schedule from check passings to speeches to car wrecks to sports.
At the sports events parents were always asking why we didn't cover "youth sports" more. All we do is cover whatever type of playoffs the league has and the championship game. The parents wanted good action shots of their kids, so in my sparetime I started shooting youth sports.
I sometimes have to tell disappointed parents that "tonight I'm here for the paper, so nothing will be on my website for sale." And other times they greet me with glee when I am there to shoot photos to sell to them online.
I joined SS.com because it helps me in both professions. |
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