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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
The Beast (stadium flash)
Nic Summers, Photographer
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Mount Prospect | IL | USA | Posted: 10:57 PM on 09.26.05 |
->> http://markhancock.blogspot.com/2005/03/behold-beast.html
This has been discussed before but I am wondering now that we are about half way through the prep football season if anyone has tried this.
I would think using a long throw reflector to concentrate the light on the field and not on the stands then there be no complaints from the people in the stands. |
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Robert Meyer, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Lincoln | NE | United States | Posted: 11:51 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> That is the coolest thing I have ever seen before in my life. I want one. |
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Michael Hickey, Photographer
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Kokomo | IN | United States | Posted: 12:16 AM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> I've got two of them sitting in our studio, never thought about using them like that. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 2:31 AM on 09.27.05 |
->> I've tried it with two Elinchrom 600 units. It worked quite well. The only thing that was bothersome is that, the farther out the players got towards the end zones, the less light I got on their faces.
I can post pics of my results if anyone is interested. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:43 AM on 09.27.05 |
->> I Have one sitting in the garage, I may just bring it to the next game.Hmmmmm...
Guy, please post your shots.
Thanks. |
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Jay Lee, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 4:27 AM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> I think that's a good idea to lit up the field if we can... But, on the top of what Guy said... I think a direction of these lights is from center of the field so, it basically lit a back of players that run toward the end zones from the center of the field... Cheers, Jay |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 4:28 AM on 09.27.05 |
->> While not "the beast," tonight at a high school football game (rescheduled due to Katrina) I tried a fairly beastly rig with interesting results (and got some pretty strange looks). I used a Vivitar 285 at 1/4 power with a Better Beamer flash extender, and borrowed David Richard's technique of mounting it on the monopod, about 30 inches below the lens.
It took a little coaxing and a lot of masking tape and velcro to get it aimed right, and I never could shoot vertical that way without a lot of falloff on the top, but the results were better than shooting "the regular way." I think I'm going to keep trying this and see if I can get it tweaked out right.
You can see some of the results in on my member gallery. |
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Nic Summers, Photographer
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Mount Prospect | IL | USA | Posted: 8:01 AM on 09.27.05 |
->> Guy,
I would like to see them if possible because I have a couple of ORIGINAL PMR(Patrick Murphy-Racey) Elinchrom 600's that I would like to try out. What reflector did you use? I have the 50 degree and was thinking about the 29. 29 probably would not be wide enough for only 2 lights to cover a football field but I but they would light up nicely. Thanks. |
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Matt Barton, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 09.27.05 |
->> Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.
Seems to me that an unexpected rain shower could potentially electrocute most of the crowd in the metal stands. That's a lot of liability just to get marginally better soccer and football shots.
Might want to check on your insurance policies before you try that at the next game. |
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Nic Summers, Photographer
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Mount Prospect | IL | USA | Posted: 3:58 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> Matt, does that include going to the moon? |
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christopher koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 10.02.05 |
->> Way to rain...no punn intended... on nic's parade Matt. Is there a difference between this "rain storm" you speak of compared to your strobed basketball shots? What if they fell over during a game and hit a player on the head? Better check your insurance policies before you try that at the next game.
Hell of an idea Nic! |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 8:57 AM on 10.03.05 |
->> Okay, no thread jacking! Safety tip duly noted - thanks!
Very cool concept. I wonder if you could help eliminate crowd annoyance by putting some grids on the front, or maybe flagging the head a bit? |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 3:09 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> i lit clemson death valley about 15 years ago for a non football function. i put two speedo in each end of the press box and lit the field from one side. before u insurance guys go nuts, they were inside the press box back under an overhang so there was no way it would get wet. i shot about f4 on the field with 200 asa chrome if i remember right. it is just like lighting a basketball court except u have a longer throw. When we light say the Ga. dome for basketball we are on a catwalk 180 ft above the floor and back off of the sideline a bit so the throw is about 220-240 give or take (a bb throw in a normal d-1 arena is anywhere from 60 to 120 ft). I use 2 speedo 2401 packs per corner in the dome and shoot at 200asa at 5.6. As a sidelight I only have used one head per 2 packs to shoot there so I am putting 4800 ws into one head and my flash duration is somewhere in the neighborhood or 1/1300 give or take because of my 10 ft cables on my heads. Now obviously to light a fb field you have a 100 yard by 150 ft field to light as opposed to a 94ft by 50ish?? court. In hockey you use 6 heads to light the whole ice. In the dome i figured it up years ago and figure you could light the field with 8 heads and maybe 6 based on the throw and the angle of the sports reflector (30 degrees). Obviously at 180 ft 30 degrees covers more than at 60 ft in a bb arena. The thing you have to remember is that light falls off by 1/4. So if you get f4 at 10 ft at 20 ft you get f8. Two stops every time you double the distance.
As to the reflector 29 degrees would definetly be needed cause the light with the 50 degree would be lighting the crowd and little would be left going to the field. I can't speak as to exactly how the elinchroms work but a 50 degree speedo reflector is a little over one stop less at about 70 ft than the 30 degree is at the same distance. I would think the elinchrom performs similarly. I have never tried a 50 degree at a longer distance as that is about the break point for switching between a 50 degree and 30 degree speedo to light a bb court so there is no need to use it at a longer distance.
I have also lit e. tenn st. minidome which they use for both fb and bb. it is a 20000 ?? seat football field and is just like any other nfl dome except it is a mini version. I lit it for bb but the lights were put in the back row / press box of the stadium give or take about 180 ft from the court and I lit way more than the bb court but not nearly all of the fb field. Now i did have the heads at each end of the bb court and they overlapped so I could have moved them further apart if i had been trying to light a fb field.
As to crowd annoyance, you will get more than at a bb game. the closer you put your strobes to the ambient light the less the annoyance will be. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> I've finally posted my version of "The Beast":
http://www.sportsshooter.com/guyrhodes/strobedfootball/
The first time I tried this was October 2004. I'd had my Canon MarkII for only two days at that point (snif-snif, memories), so I didn't know the joys of 8fps. and football at the time.
Last weekend I tried this rig again and it wasn't as glorious as I remembered. In addition to the 1.5 second recycle time between shots (which eliminates my new favorite way of shooting football at 8 frames per second), the lighting is only even between the 20-30 yard lines or so, and even then, the action has to be facing the lights in order for you to get good faces on the players.
I used the rig last Friday for half the first quarter, then decided to ditch it and shoot available light. It was a trade-off between the strobes, or 8 frames per second and awful available light (3200 ISO 1/320th @ 2.8). Noise Ninja rules!
I did, however, use the rig for my half-time homecoming activities, where it performed quite nicely. One of these is in my gallery as well.
The verdict: Its not so much that the strobes won't light the field, but rather, they won't light the field evenly enough. If I had 8 heads, two per light tower and a way to mount them, it might work well. Even still, you lose your motor drive and you'll find yourself mashing the shutter in frustration at a great action sequence only to have black frames as a result while the lights recycle. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 4:37 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Oh and one more thing about crowd annoyance at the risk of veering off topic: My paramount concern at a game (especially basketball) is player annoyance, followed closely by coach and official annoyance. If either of these parties complain (so far only one official has, but ended up letting me use the lights), I'll make my case to them, but ultimately, respect their wishes.
If crowd members complain (which they do, about one per basketball game), I'll introduce myself and let them chimp some shots on my camera, and explain that the lights are necessary for me to get better shots of the players (usually one of their kids). I usually end up swaying them to the way of the strobes.
And while I do make attempts to flag the light out of the stands with black wrap as much as I can, I'd rather have better light for the players photos and some uncomfortable dads rather than noisy, flat images shot with available light.
At the three football games I've strobed, I doubt anyone even noticed. |
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Matt Barton, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | USA | Posted: 6:14 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Chris-
Yes, there's a huge difference. If you light HS basketball, most of the time you can get by with a couple battery-powered vivitars clipped to the upper railings. But you should always weigh the investment with the payoff. Is this assignment worth the time, effort & money of lighting up a stadium? There's no question that it can be done. But where's the justification?
Going to the moon was justified. Dragging strobes to a high school football game seems really excessive. |
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Robert Benson, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 6:33 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Matt: If a photographer isn't willing to go the extra mile, to lug strobes to an assignment that doesn't pay well, to get their early, to stay late, to spend extra time correcting images afterward, to - in short - work hard and make effort - they will be doomed to mediocrity.
Just "getting by" doesn't make it in this world. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 6:38 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Amen, Robert. I'm glad someone else said what I was thinking. With everything I do, be it photography, video, or lighting design, I'm always willing to go the extra mile to make the better product. Even if it means lugging my strobe case up six flights of press box stairs! Why settle for less when you have the access and the resources to make something different and unique?
Just wanted to make sure it wasn't the "right out of college go-getter" in me before I posted a reply to Matt. |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 7:17 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Robert hit the nail on the head. If a photographer is going to bust their butt getting cool, unique photos at the smaller events, chances are that they'll do it at the bigger ones as well. Would you rather be known as a photographer who steps it up only for the big assignments, or do you want to be regarded as somebody who can be trusted to come back with excellent, unique photos from every assignment?
I'd much rather hire a photographer that I know will produce great photos for everybody they shoot for, not just for a select group of clients under a select set of circumstances.
Guy, you have the perfect attitude. I remember a quote from Thomas Witte that I saw awhile back. "Treat every assignment like you're shooting it for Sports Illustrated." Never be complacent with your photographs....when you wonder how something would work for a photograph, find reasons to try it, not reasons not to. |
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jeff martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 7:20 PM on 10.03.05 |
->> Guy, It probably is 'the "right out of college go-getter"' attitude. I suggest you try not to loose it.
Jeff |
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Matt Barton, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | USA | Posted: 12:46 PM on 10.04.05 |
| ->> Don't misread my post. It's not a question of "going the extra mile" or "stepping it up". It's a question of justification and responsible journalism. I applaud Guy's eagerness but I personally disagree with this elephant gun style approach here. I just feel it's disrespectful in this case with no real motive other than portfolio building. That's all. |
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Michael McNamara, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 2:56 PM on 10.04.05 |
->> If you go to any assignment without thinking of the potential of boosting your portfolio, something is wrong.
And are you serious about questioning Mr. Hancock and Mr. Rhodes trying a new technique? Do you really think that strobing a football game is "disrespectul"? Do you truly believe that trying a technique that probably everybody who has played with arena strobes has thought about constitutes irresponsible journalism? I usually reserve that term for people like Jayson Blair. And how is it disrespectul to strobe football but not disrespectul to do it with basketball (and the Vivitar 285 vs Elinchrom 600 argument doesn't count here)? The "elephant gun" approach would be using the Elinchroms in the high school gym. You cannot strobe a football field with Vivitars. You need something like the Elinchroms to get the job done.
I cannot speak for Mr. Rhodes' motives, and I've never even met him before. But he had an idea, had the resources to test it out, and felt compelled to give it a shot. Are you suggesting that this is an idea that he should have just let sit in his head and never use, because it might not work well? It's a lot easier to find reasons not to do something because it might not work than to try it and see for yourself. I applaud the photographers in question for going out on a limb and giving it a shot.
Please tell me that I'm not misreading this post as well. |
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Matt Barton, Photographer
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Lexington | KY | USA | Posted: 11:47 PM on 10.04.05 |
->> Try reading it again carefully because you're just not getting it.
I'm not slamming innovation and I'm not dismissing a need for the Beast in special cases. But once is a test. Guy claims to have shot with the Beast at three games and hasn't offered any justification outside of portfolio building. Here's a good quote:
"I'd rather have better light for the players photos and some uncomfortable dads rather than noisy, flat images shot with available light."
When you disrespect people and use them for your own testing and portfolio games, it's irresponsible journalism. They are not gathered for your amusement; they are there for the game. At least Mark was shooting for publication.
And you are wrong about shooting HS football with Vivitars. Near the top of this thread, Doug's testing proved 285s are more than capable for stopping football action. And they balance better with the field light.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=132
Thanks for the comments. |
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Mark J. Rebilas, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 12:11 AM on 10.05.05 |
->> Guy,
I love the fact that you are trying something different and applaud you. But then again what do I know, I'm the guy who clamps cameras on 150mph boats just for the sake of a potential portfolio image. Guess that makes me a "irresponsible journalist." |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 12:57 AM on 10.05.05 |
->> Just to clarify: While the possibility of a portfolio "winner" excites me with every assignment I cover (be it self assigned or otherwise), my strobed football games were not done to try and drum up some fancy image for my own gratification.
"Guy claims to have shot with the Beast at three games and hasn't offered any justification outside of portfolio building."
Again, I never said anything about a portfolio. And I thought justification for strobes was given when I mentioned the available light settings for E.C. Central High: 3200ISO 1/320th @ 2.8.
The light towers at Central High have 12 lights per tower, 4 towers. For the past year and a half, 4 lights on each tower on the home side of the field (thats 8 of 24, or 1/3rd) have been inoperable. This makes the already dark lighting uneven as well (because you're missing units that should be focused in the wash to make it even).
I've tried using my on-camera flash to light things, and I'm sick and tired of getting white / red streaked eyes on my players. I also can't justify spending almost 500 dollars on a battery pack to get my 550EX to recycle fast enough for a few football games per year. But I can justify bringing out the strobes that I already own that have almost already paid for themselves doing portraits, basketball, roller hockey, etc.
I don't know if you've ever visited the East Chicago or Gary Indiana area, but I've grown up here all my life. I know that a lot of the kids around here don't have a lot of opportunities, and sports might be one of the few things they have to look forward to every week.
I'm glad I've had the opportunities I've had, and I get excited to share my resources with these kids to make images of them working hard at doing something other than gang banging or selling drugs. I want them to see themselves in the yearbook, in an image that looks so different and unique than anything else they've seen, and feel proud of what they've accomplished. They deserve the best I can give. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 5:53 AM on 10.05.05 |
->> Guy -
Hot tip for ya! You don't need to spend five bills on a battery for your 550. All you need is a quantum battery one and the quantum cable. Both can be had for under $60 if you shop right on eBay. |
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christopher koutsis, Photographer
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huntington | ny | USA | Posted: 12:31 PM on 10.05.05 |
| ->> Talk about an interesting thread turned LAME...I'll take the credit though... I was one of the first one's who responded to Matt's post. Sorry Nic! Never knew it would turn into this. Still think it's a cool idea though. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 2:52 PM on 10.05.05 |
->> There has been a lot of talk about the Beast and I personally think the Beast should be mobile, not hanging around being dangerous. I am considering this set-up as a mobile system for the sidelines.
Thoughts?
www.sportsshooter.com/prodjjulian/beast2 |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 3:23 PM on 10.05.05 |
->> julian u think that is funny. abc has a guy that carries a pole with 2 soft boxes mounted on it via superclamps. the softboxes r about 12 x 20ish one mounted about 6 inches above sam ryan height. the other mounted on the pole about sam ryan's chest height to light, yeh u guessed it sam ryan their side line reporter. another guy has a back pack looking case although it was on the ground with i saw it with cords running from the softbox into it. Now u gotta remember this is tv so you need light running all the time not strobes. his bag looked heavy not sure what kind of power supply they use but gees what a lot to carry.
Amazing thing is the lower softbox is gonna give sam the monster lighting effect which i sure she doesnt want. Not sure why they didnt light her from both sides instead of above and below. |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 10.05.05 |
->> There were a couple of guys at Califonia Speedway last month, trying out their brainstorming.
One guy took the shots with the Pocketwizard attached, while the assistant walked around with him holding the softbox on a pole and wearing a homemade shoulder harness. The shoulder harness held up the battery pack that was mounted on plywood against the assistants back and something else mounted next to assistants stomach.(aka walking Novatrons)
The next day, the shoulder harness had been replaced with a luggage roller type device, pulled by the assistant.
I'm thinking that harness got a little heavy after a few hours in the sun. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 4:42 PM on 10.05.05 |
->> "Amazing thing is the lower softbox is gonna give sam the monster lighting effect which i sure she doesnt want. Not sure why they didnt light her from both sides instead of above and below."
Soft fill from the bottom will eliminate the shadows under the nose / neck, and also fill in wrinkles. Michael Jackson is always lit this way in interviews for obvious reasons. |
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