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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Any successful online sellers?
Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 4:28 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> I am getting frustrated with the online sales. We just switched from selling on spec, printing 5x7 and bringing them back to the fields, to onsite viewing and also online. The sales this year from same events last year are about 20%. What is the problem? I just updated my site letting people know they have 2 weeks to purchase, after that they will be archived. Once archived it will require a pre-payment of $25 to get the gallery back up. Any suggestions. |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | U.S.A. | Posted: 4:40 PM on 09.26.05 |
->> Craig,
Why did you change?
O |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> Too much time processing photos and got tired of throwing away 1000's of prints. |
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Nick Layman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Albuquerque | NM | | Posted: 4:53 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> How about pre orders? Contract out with the customer. Sell the photos before they exist then give them a choice of picking them online. |
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Marie Hughes, Photographer
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Fremont | CA | USA | Posted: 4:56 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> Do you do onsite sales or just onsite viewing? If you just do onsite viewing, I'd switch to onsite viewing and sales. I do onsite viewing and sales and 99% of my sales are onsite. I do have online sales too but they are only for those who can't bear to wait at the event and want to wait until they get home. |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 4:57 PM on 09.26.05 |
| ->> I started selling online while shooting my sons events. I figured I was there anyway so why not. At the first event meybe 15-20 people came up to me asking lots of ?? telling me to shoot their son bla bla bla. I figured I'd make pretty good money, right? Wrong! I've come to realize only a few poeple will buy online, lots of people dont even have or no how to use computers, others are afraid to give credit card info, and I was really amused by one conersation I overheard, a lady was telling another lady the he has pictures on the internet, the other lady replied "can I see them on AOL?" "oh no, you have to go onto the world wide web" I still shoot my sons events, I know the kids love looking at them but never expect much. |
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Eric Jones, Photographer
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Ayden | NC | USA | Posted: 5:18 PM on 09.26.05 |
->> Craig, I can't speak for everyone but I'm a one man show so it's impossible for me to print on site. I shoot mostly mx so after the 2nd moto the riders are packing up and leaving while the others are still racing. So of course I wouldn't have no time to even get images up for people to view. But my online sales are decent but I'm sure they would be higher if I was printing on site. I do get a few emails and calls asking can I bring the pictures to the next race which works.
EKJ |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 5:25 PM on 09.26.05 |
->> I'm moving from completely online viewing/selling to online viewing/selling with a seperate mail in order form.
I'm like Eric - a one man show. I also believe in REAL lab prints, so printing on site is a bit difficult. I've got some inkjet prints hanging on my wall that show just how good the best stuff can be.... they are all faded. Some did so in less than a year. I just won't take the chance with my customers orders. |
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James Pezoulas, Photographer, Assistant
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McKinney | TX | USA | Posted: 6:09 PM on 09.26.05 |
->> No. Online sales are a joke compared to on site.(for me anyway)
I'm confused. Are you printing on site? You say you're making prints and bringing them back to the fields. Is this the same day or next day or what?
Here is how we do it on site. You need a laptop with Express Digital software and a Dye Sub printer.
First, pick your events carefully. The younger the better. Stay away from "select" teams. They see pictures every week and they spend so much money traveling each week already.
Also, try to find fields with limited access meaning it's better if there is only one way in and one way out. This is tough for soccer where fields are spread out all over. Parents are not likely going to walk a quarter mile to your tent. We stopped doing soccer all together and focus on baseball and football. Although baseball is getting oversaturated too.
Shoot the game. Make sure you're done 20 min before game is over so you can print thumnails of all your shots before the parents leave. You can get 18 thumbnails per sheet. We usually shoot 180 to 220 shots per game. Try to get every kid and get lots of candids. Mom's love those and they do most of the buying.
Make sure you hand out flyers to the parents before you head back to print letting them know the pics will be available right after the game and they will take their orders home today. They lose there erge to buy once they get home.
Tape the thumbails to a table with order forms. Have someone there to answer questions while you print the orders.
This is what works for me. Hope it helps.
Jamie |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> I've had the opposite experience. My on site sales are non existent. But I put my site up last Tuesday night (the 20th) and have had 2895 visitors and 8 sales. I've had 100 people visit my site today alone.
Granted, I shot the USA Cycling National Championships last weekend, but the trick I use to direct people to my site is to go on all the mountain biking websites and post that I have race pictures. I also shoot football (not very well, to be honest) for my son's high school, and let the coach and booster club know the shots were on my site.
Because of this, I've been invited to shoot two new events this week, and you can bet I'll let everyone know the second those shots are up.
Try joining whatever message boards, online communities, etc that are affiliated with whatever you're shooting. It's free and easy marketing!
Jody
By the way, I went with www.exposuremanager.com - it's been really great. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 3:36 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Jody....so a 0.27% sell rate is good? 8 out of 2895?
Even if you're selling at a decent average (say $50) your gross is only $400 so far. Also...of course you've been invited to shoot new events this week...you're shooting and showing pictures for free. Coaches, parents, etc get to see pictures and you get to work 2 more events this week with no guarantee that you'll generate $0.10 in revenue.
Our goal should be to get away from shooting on specualation if you expect to make aliving doing this. The question isn't how many parents want to SEE pictures of their kids...the question is how many parents are willing to SPEND $50 on their kid and get the pictures in the mail in 7-10 days.
Craig...there are (3) possible reasons for your decrease in sales.
a) parents can get these pictures week after week after week at "one damn tournament after another" so you no longer provide a unique product
or
b) your marketing isn't good
or
c) your pictures aren't that good
I have 3 "words of wisdom" for the group here:
PREORDER, PREORDER, PREORDER |
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DJ Werner, Photographer
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Coastal | NC | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> I concur with Jody- what I have done with surfing is to post images/info/links on chat boards where the surfers are.
When I just show up at random-
seems to take about 1000 hits to an order-
it took about 3or 4 months of this- and now they are contacting me ahead of time when they are coming down to the coast to surf-and ask if I can meet up with them etc
seems to be a symbiotic relationship
and usually if I stop and chat a few minutes with the surfers or their girlfriends/parents and "exchange email addresses"- this leads to conversation[email] and more invitations to events.
it takes time to build online biz
I also think it is about a combination of things to make the biz work and online is a part of it-
not the entire ball of wax-diversify
it also is about building relationships
and great customer service!
Notice I said exchange email address-
this is very different than just passing out my card to them with the link to images.
I can't quite put my finger on it - but it seems to be more personal or something? and they respond better-
I am also willing to create custom work for them
I say something like:
look - if you check out the images online and don't see what you need, just let me know - there are all kinds of ways to customize a photograph. And if your sponsor needs an image, let me know, or have him contact me.
they know they need or want images- but most quite frankly are lost after that-
and if they bring up the credit card issue-, I say printroom takes checks or you can send me a check and I'll place the order for you. Did you know you can order a mouse pad with your photo on it?
on some of the more creative pieces- I handle myself and deliver to them when they come back to the beach- this makes me seem like more of an artist to them vs a photojournalist- and quite honestly they don't seem to mind paying a bit more for artsy work-
much of it has to do with perception in the clients eyes.
I often wonder if this is because surfers are more of an individual- marching to a different beat vs team sports??
What we share and have in common is a love for the ocean, respect for nature, and it comes though in my passion for coastal fine art photography.
On the other hand:
youth sports sales are way down around here- have been since they deployed all the Marines overseas- seems the parent left behind - usually the mother, heads back home,with the children, while the husband is deployed.
Craig - online can work well, but I use as as a piece of my biz- sometimes it is more for marketing than the actual sales-etc.
experiment with it-
sometimes I get the feeling clients want to know they can find you again- that you are brick and morter somewhere and not just going to run off into cyberspace with their money.
D |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 3:55 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> On line sales is not the way to maximize your profit, period. Deal with the sports that are profitable, and deal with leagues vs. tournaments. With leagues, especially in- house leagues there are no lost sales due to pictures being available to parents week after week like tournaments. With this being football season you should clean up. Don't worry about throwing away 1000 prints, at .16 cents each who cares if you are selling 1000 more at $8.00 each, plus enlaregements, framing ect. You will do way more business by having the impulse driven live product in front of people. The other option to to charge a nice flat fee for a team and burn everyone a CD. I'm not sure how the preordering would work for action photography, what happens if you only get 1-2 parents preordering for a game, or if they don't like the photos after they "preorder"? Jody's case proves my point, 8 sales out of 2895 "hits" is horrible. If you want to run a museum, go the online route otherwise go onsite for selling. |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 4:47 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> Well I think this is turning out the way I expected it. No real successes. Thanks for the comments but I think I will be abandoning online sales in favor of spec printing. |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> It's definitly not an either/or situation. Do both event and online sales.
My online sales are doing very well this year and have always out performed event sales, and I can assure that they are considerably higher than 8 sales out of 2000 hits. But, we're are having records sales of late, both at events and online. And all with the same customer base as many of the previous events. Many folks have ordered at every event. The trend over the last couple of years has been, that whatever we do at the event we will match or better online. And often, I even get the same folks buying at both the event AND online.
One thing you may or may not want to do, we(my wife and I) invest two or three hours after each event renumbering our photos in such a way that helps our riders find "their" pictures online very quickly. This is opposed to many sites that direct their visitors to pages and pages of event pictures that customers have to search through. In my conversations with the customers, they don't like wading through pages of pictures looking for theirs. In no more than two clicks of the mouse, the riders visiting my site will be looking at their pictures of a specific event, not pages that include everyone. Many, many people have told me that they love this about my website. I'm also a java programmer, so I was able to program my entire site to fit my needs, so that helped.
It's great to have an online customer base for situations where something uncontrollable goes wrong. For example, the printer quits working, or something else happens. For example, in August I shot 900+ pictures of the practices of a motocross race, and then the bottom fell out of the clouds and the races were cancelled due to whether. There was zero chance for sales at the event, but we did well online!
I completely disagree that few people know how to use a computer, or will want to order online as opposed to ordering at events. We have found plenty of both. Some don't trust paying online and will buy at events only and many others will buy at events because they are there and excited to see their pictures, and emotions will take over. However, others would rather wait until they get home and have time to look through all the pictures at their own pace, not when trying to get ready for the next moto, or pack up and go home. To each their own, and we offer viewing and sales for both.
If you are taking teenage sports, you can rest assured that most of the participants being photographed are very computer savvy, probably more so than the photographer, and WILL ABSOLUTELY be on the website to check out their pictures. I cannot imagine passing on this opportunity for sales...Period. Many times, I ask that riders send me an "email request", and promise to post the requests first, in the order that I receive the requests. This accomplishes a couple of things: One, I post pictures of people who are actually are wanting to see them, and two, people don't have to wait as long to see their pictures compared to if I am posting all of them. The first day after an event, I am often overwhelmed with requests. So I know for a fact that the majority of the riders WILL visit the site and CAN work a computer.
Of course, I also think I take very good pictures, and make sure people get more than they expect in quality.
Additional notes of importance to us: We do offer event printing at the nightime events, but seldom open the monitors at daytime events because we shoot mostly in the March to October months at dusty motocross tracks. And some people don't want to stand in 95+ degree tempature looking at dusty monitors. Also, We have a customized trailer with three monitors mounted in the side. When I am not showing pictures on the monitors, I still consider my trailer to be a moving billboard, and will park in a highly visible location. In addition, we have the easiest website name in the world to remember if you are wanting to see your motocross pictures, so that helps. I never pass out a single card, because everyone and their dog can remember 'mx''pictures'. As soon as we get home, we try to update the site in some way, even if it's just one picture on the front page, so that people will know that we were at their event and that pictures are coming. We post the pictures as quickly as possible, meaning we don't usually wait more than a day or two to start. We get the overwhelming majority of our sales in the first three days, and we have many repeat customers. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> I absolutely agree with DJ...I too give people my email address. When you make it personal, people will buy from you, because the main thing people want in this detached society is to feel like someone cares about them! Make a person feel important and he'll bend over backwards for you. You can bet that the two events I was asked to shoot will result in a sale, because the athlete personally asked me there. DJ's right - know who you're shooting and shoot what they like - or, maybe they like a funky crop - so crop it the way they like. It's easy to accomodate, and I guarantee you that you will be the first photog they go to next time. Like DJ, I have athletes contacting me about my schedule as well. Now, hardly anyone comes up to me at an event anymore - unless it's just to chat. What I find now is I have 10-15 (the number grows after every event) emails waiting for me when I get home, and you can bet those are the first people to see their proofs.
Delane, those 8 orders were for 21 shots. While I agree that the percentage is low - my site's been up 6 1/2 days. Since I announced my site on on message boards, there are people all over the country who are visiting the site even though their photo isn't posted because they didn't race in the event I shot. Also, because of the website, I have the two upcoming events to shoot this week and have been contacted by a magazine, a sports camp (for a brochure), an event media director (for an event I can't do this Saturday), as well as two moms who want me to shoot "candids" of their kids for Christmas cards.
I wouldn't have had any sales or prospects at all if it weren't for the 2895 people (actually 2905 now) who have visited, and the stats tell me that people are staying and looking. It makes me wonder how many people saved the page to their favorites which may result in future sales? I will continue to direct as many people as possible to my site, and as far as possible, respond to any comments and emails they send me, because once again, people want to feel important.
I've noticed that the number of people visiting each day is larger than the day before. For those of you who remember, it reminds me of the old Faberje shampoo commercials "they tell two friends, and so on...". My point is that I am sowing seeds, which is essential in brand-name-marketing. The way I look at it, there is now 2905 more people who know my name than there was last week, which can only be good for business.
What's the difference between a super-famous photographer and an equally talented no name photographer? Brand-Name-Marketing. If we market ourselves, we become familiar. If we make our name become a brand name, we become status symbols. We become a brand name (status symbol) when we are well known within our sport of choice. Trust me, people want to feel important, special, etc (I can't stress this enough), so if we make ourselves a brand name, they will have us shoot them before an equally or more talented no name photographer. Make sense?
:~) |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Jody I will disagree with you. Hits are not the key stat here or any other website business. It is the number of quality hits you receive, hits from potential customers. Sure you get a lot of hits on your site by posting on various boards, but are the hits possible customers? Most probably are not. You need quality traffic, traffic strictly from the competetitors. With my other business, I pay google approx .25 a click for visitors via adwords. If I got 8 sales out of 2900 hits I would be broke before I started. As it stands now each sale from google costs me about 5.00, or 1 in 40 clicks purchases an item. These stats are from a retail online business not related to photography.
My opinion on photo sales is that people will tell everyone to go to xyz site to see their kids pictures, then nobody purchases. I am now moving towards leaving galleries up for 2 weeks, after that if you want to see them it will cost $25 to repost the gallery, which I will issue a coupon good for a $25 purchase. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 5:42 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> A great deal of my traffic is from the competitors, based n the feedback I'm getting via email and the message boards. But the competitors are not the only source of income - what about the products, the venues, promoters, etc?
Before everyone blasts me about a high hit ratio in 6 days, think about the rush a restaurant or store gets when it first opens. Let's sit back and see how the numbers equalize themselves, then we can judge whether or not the site is worth it. I've already made back the money it cost me to register my domain and pay for hosting, so it's free from this point on for me to have my photos sit there.
But even if my sales to hits ratio is low this week, I've been offered 7 jobs in the past two days because of the site, and only one of them was from a competitor - the rest were from promoters or companies associated with the industry. I'm sorry, but in the big picture, I don't call that a failure by any measure.
Guys, I've been in sales for 20 years. In fact, it's my day job. It is essential to market for the future by getting your name in front of as many people as you can, as often as possible, otherwise it won't matter how talented you are. |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 6:13 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Jody so you take the 7 jobs offered, then when those are posted and the sales hits ratio is low on those 7 jobs you get offered 7 more. Where does the cycle end? Also you say those pics are costing you anything sitting there? Does that mean your time is free, equipment is free, gas is free? My only point is nobody has come forward and saying yes i am doing great with online sales. My opinion is customers use it as a free slide show, and if they can get the pictures of the web for free they will.
You are definitely right about a new restaurant opening. They are loaded with people, but those people are spending money. |
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jeff martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 6:32 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Just a thought. I find that the younger my subjects are, the better the sales. I would much rather shoot the local CYO baseball tourney than the Roy Hobbs World Series. With this type of event I get about $1 in sales per site hit. Many of the hits will be kids looking over and over or showing their friends. $2k to $4k for a 24 team tourney is not unusual from strictly online sales. I leave a monitor near the snack bar running a slide show and hand out cards to the parents every game. I also get a couple of posters made with custom graphics for display and post them where no one will snatch them.
Jeff |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 6:59 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> **My only point is nobody has come forward and saying yes i am doing great with online sales.**
It's official, I no longer count! The second sentence of my previous post:
"My online sales are doing very well this year and have always out performed event sales"! |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 6:59 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> There have been a few times in my life when I wished I communicated better and this is one of them. I think that we are looking at the same thing from two different angles. I am speaking about long term name recognition.
Craig - to be blunt - we've shot the same events and will probably run into each other again this weekend. How are your sales from those particular events? Your football photos are way better than mine, so if you're not selling those particular shots and I am, why do you think that is? Answer: Marketing, marketing, marketing.
I don't expect the majority of my sales to come from my site because I'd rather be on assignment (pre-order as Delane says) than to shoot on spec. I expect to have established relationships with athletes, promoters, venues, equipment, leagues, etc. in the long run. It will happen, but I understand that I have to pay my dues and get my name well known in the sport, and that takes time.
The biking events that I shoot are literally all over the world, so the most effective and cost efficient way to brand name myself in biking is to direct as many people possible who are associated with that sport to my site - whether they buy or not. Word of mouth advertising is invaluable. If people like your site, they'll bookmark it, and they will remember you and refer you. Eventually it snowballs and you're a success. But it's not magic; it takes a lot of effort on your part, and you can't get discouraged if online sales are slow to start. Just my humble opinion... |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 7:10 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Same story here. I'm also a one-man operation, online only. Tons of looks and lots of compliments, but no sales.
I thought it would be a way to make some extra cash without the huge investment and manpower required to do on site sales. Looks like a flop at this point. Apparently, most people are satisfied fine with downloading the ugly low-rez proof jpgs for free, or just looking.
Doug |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | U.S.A. | Posted: 7:33 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> If only a few out of so many visitors buy pictures from you, chances are they are going thru pages after pages and get tired of searching certain photos. I am always surprised by the fact that so many shooters just get rid of bad photos and throw everything else into a gallery, and let visitors go thru them. That’s a lot of asking. Definitely not customer-friendly. You may save time, but you won’t make money as much as you hope.
One thing you can improve the “quality of traffic” is to make searching photos easier. If you have total control of your website, like Kent, have a powerful search engine so that potential customers can search in many ways (event date, athlete name, race number, etc.) and *quickly*.
If you depend on Printroom, Shutterfly, or any other online services, group your photos by date, team, etc. so each gallery will be less than 100 photos. (I just picked 100 – could be any small number.) Of course Printroom does have its own search engine, but if a race number is anywhere between 0 and 99, it won’t work. And there are many sports in which you don’t see 3 digits.
Whatever your choice is, search engine, grouping, or both, you have to identify each photo, and the info must be saved somehow. You can throw the info into database and/or rename each image file (so Printroom’s search engine can use). I spend a lot of time for this – the least fun part:
As I go thru images one by one in my own “image viewer” program (which I made), I look for the race #, type it and hit Enter, and the # is saved in my Access database. (By the way, no mouse action required so it saves a lot of time.) Next one shows up, and I do the same, on and on… Later my program compares the race results with the database and looks for a match, and if it’s found, then renames the image file. This is a batch process. Once renamed, the images are uploaded to my Printroom site. I still create sub-groups/galleries to make searching easier.
To me, however people come to your site isn’t important, from Google, some forums, or any part of cyberspace. But I believe meeting people directly is extremely important and the best way of marketing, just like Jody does.
O |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 7:41 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> Sorting would be nice if you could. How do you sort a baseball game, soccer game, or basketball game? Numbers are on the backs. Also by not sorting you have the possibility of Jimmys mom telling Johnys mom that there are some great pictures on xyz.com. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 7:46 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Thanks O...I too sort all the images by plate number. Then sort the galleries numerically. It makes it much easier for the competitor. But what I've been finding is at least in my sport, people will see their shots, then surf through the whole site looking for the wrecks.
I seriously thought about making a gallery just for wrecks, but I think in the long run, it's better to have people look for the wrecks because they'll see other shots they like (of their friends, for example) and once again the word of mouth advertising goes into effect.
Interested in sharing more about your "Image Viewer" program?
Jody |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 7:56 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Craig, from my experience, Jimmy's mom is going to look at Johnny's pictures anyway since she know's his rider number. So, that's non issue.
And you are correct, there is not an easy way to sort baseball and basketball pictures, unless you know the name. I looked at the pictures on your site earlier, and noticed this problem. So I don't have an answer for that.
I shoot a quad series. On quads, it is often very hard to see the number plates when they are in the air. So, what I do is shoot the quads from an angle where I can see the number plate and then I take the time to determine who is who afterward. Yes, it takes us maybe an extra hour when we finish renumbering, but it pays off. Sometimes, I just can't determine who it is, in which case I list them as 'zzz's on my site, and tell everyone to be sure and look their also. I also do the same thing if there is more than one rider in a shot.
Osomu, agreed on the advance search. I actually have the ability to search by first name, last name, rider number, class, event, and even bike maker. But, I got lazy a couple of years ago, and only enter the bike numbers in the database. It's why I have null fields above each picture. |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | U.S.A. | Posted: 7:57 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Craig,
At least you can divide the pics by team. For baseball, soccer, and basketball, the # of participants are small so it's a lot easier to go thru.
I don't understand about your last sentence, "Also..." People send photo links to each other if a photo is identified or not, right?
Based on your assumption, if Johny's mom wants to see more of her son's photos, she has to go thru unsorted photos... She may lose her interest in buying the very first one she saw. So the point is why make it harder?
O |
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Kent Gilley, Photographer
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Azle | TX | USA | Posted: 8:00 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> Sorry for the spelling errors today, I can actually spell better. Whether should have been weather, their should have been there, Osomu should have been Osamu. Sorry for the mistakes made in rushing. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> The trick is to get Johnny's mom to put that picture in her shopping cart before she continues on... |
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Eric Jones, Photographer
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Ayden | NC | USA | Posted: 8:12 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> All of my mx shots are numbered by the number plate on the bike. I've had plenty of parents/riders come up to me and say "what a wonderful idea"...now I don't have to go through 600 images to find my pictures. Being a one man show you pretty much need to do what works best for you...and online sales works best for me. Granted, I have to add in my time, gas, equipment, website and other things but for one I enjoy it and second it pays for itself in the long run...if it didn't I would shut down the operation. Everyone had a different situation from Jody to Craig...it's hard to find another person to help you at the races because it's alot of time invested. I wish I could do onsite printing but there is just now way that will happen for me. So I keep on going with my online sales. I think marketing is a good key and I send out emails and post to mx forums as well and I also work closely to the parents/riders and listen to what they want in a picture.
Cheers and good luck to everyone with online or onsite sales.
EKJ |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | U.S.A. | Posted: 8:37 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Jody,
My image viewer program is PC-based. I'm hoping to make a Mac version for my PowerBook in winter when things are slowing down. Something like ViewIt would be great.
Obviously I made it so I know exactly how it works, but I don't know how others would feel. It's extremely simplified which may not be friendly for everyone else. At this point, I am not thinking about making this free/shareware, but maybe in the future...
Kent,
No problem with the typo. It's much better than "Osama" which I get often since 9-11. I just don't want to be known as Photographer/Terrorist...
O |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 8:55 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Craig... sales from the ERLL Tournament were about 50/50 between on-site and online. Orders are still trickling in on-site, but the majority of orders came in during the tournament and two weeks afterwards. I would like to see how sales would improve if photoreflect made it mandatory to enter your email to browse the galleries. Those email addresses then can be used by the photographer to send out discounts and other promotional announcements. I imagine there would be a privacy issue there though.
I have a pretty decent size database of those that ordered from the ERLL. I'm going to be doing some fall sales and offer a team DVD in November for those that have bought photos already. That's really your customer base and if they have bought before, they'll buy again if you constantly offer new products and promotions.
Generally speaking, I'm wondering if the current status of the nation has anything to do with declining sales. Gas prices and hurricane relief might be where the money is going. Ballparks, movies, and restaurants are still going strong here on Long Island, but I think that's more of a product of people wanting to escape for a few hours from what's going on in the world. |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 9:17 PM on 09.27.05 |
->> Osama what I meant by the also is that if you have a search on your site, Johnys mom wont see Jimmys picture therefore wont tell Jimmys mom anything. Also you could sort it out by teams but there would be a lot of "tweeners" that could go either way, defensive player or offensive player. Also from what I have seen when we print specs, the parents that are going to buy like to look and comment on all the pictures and usually go to the other parents. For what you are shooting, yes separating by jersey number works good, but for what I am doing I don't think it is the answer.
Paul for your tournament I think online is a huge boost and I will do the same next year, hopefully. This whole thread I started is in reference to normal league play games, and web sales in general.
One last thing, welcome aboard Paul |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 9:30 PM on 09.27.05 |
| ->> I sorted by teams both onsite and online, but the way I had it setup with the viewing stations, it was actually more manageable for me to do it this way, so it made sense to do it the same way online. It wound up working out well. Parents found the galleries easier to browse the photos which were around 100-200 per game and with the online metrics function on PR, I could get a better idea of which teams were buying and which were not. For the "tweeners", they simply went in the galleries for both teams, but believe it or not, there were not a lot of those. |
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DJ Werner, Photographer
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Coastal | NC | USA | Posted: 1:03 AM on 09.28.05 |
->> Craig, Jody writes about the 7 jobs
you reply:
"->> Jody so you take the 7 jobs offered, then when those are posted and the sales hits ratio is low on those 7 jobs you get offered 7 more. Where does the cycle end?"
Craig,if she markets herself correctly the cycle won't end!Thats the idea-
thats just it- she is using the online site as one branch of an effective marketing tool to promote her business.
while I understand what you are saying about quailty hits and stats- and qualified buyers... what she is doing issimilar to what I am doing [and already posted]
she is using her onsite sales as a "marketing tool" that lead to other jobs- of the assignment type;
she is not then posting the 7 jobs for online sales on spec-
she is turning them into paying jobs such as assignment or commercial or editorial jobs.
online sales is just a small part of what I do-
I use it to lead to other paying jobs that are not on spec
I use it as a method to show images and if they order from there- thats great- if they wanted something custom that they see online, but want it a different paper or maybe canvas- thats great too
I don't set out to make a killing from online sales-instead I use it as part of my marketing plan, a way to generate the fact that hey someone is out there shooting this event.
marketing, brand name identity and creating a buzz is what it's all about...
I am more concerned with the hit count and how many people are exposed to my work- than online sales..
I am not posting thousands of images-but rather a handful of well selected images maybe 40 images to a gallery.
we are using online technology to market our name
if we get some sales - wonderful
if we get some photo sessions or assignments from it- thats great! because thats what we are after....
I learned long ago- I couldn't survive if I had to depend only on online sales- and that I suspect is due to this rural area I live in and lack of broadband access in the area,etc. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 10:58 AM on 09.28.05 |
->> Well said DJ! Bravo!
Jody |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 09.28.05 |
| ->> Craig, what is the link to your site? |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 5:16 PM on 09.28.05 |
->> Sam...
Craig is TNTPhotos.com |
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Craig Morrison, Photographer
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Menifee | CA | USA | Posted: 7:53 PM on 09.28.05 |
->> Delane thank you
DJ...My whole point in this post is that online sales suck, sales not marketing. Yes you can use it as marketing if you wish, but if it weren't for this site and a couple of others I could not tell you who shoots youth sports in my area, actually I still could not tell you. I know what I can make a day with printing spec and bringing them back, and compared to online sales it is roughly 85% more. My whole opinion on online sales is it is a free slide show for the parents, well my site will be no more. The little bit that will be posted on the internet will be up for 2 weeks, after that you will have to prepay $25 to get the gallery re-posted. Maybe my images suck and that is the whole deal. Here is a link to another site where I post pictures for sale. http://images.maxpreps.com/Galleries.aspx/ImageList?PhotoGalleryID=f443bb19... Now maxpreps is pretty popular in california, and I guarantee they get a lot more traffic than I do. Guess how many images have sold from that gallery. 2.
I have picked up 7 new little league contracts for next year, and not one was from the internet, all were from in person meetings. |
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Kevin Johnston, Photographer
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Oden | MI | USA | Posted: 8:06 PM on 09.28.05 |
->> I must be doing something wrong.
I just do small events when I have spare time, usually for friends who have kids who are participating. I do both on-line as well as limited amount of on-site sales.
Last event I posted had just over 200 hits and sales average was $3.66 per hit.
Event before that had just shy of 100 hits and sales average was $3.57 per hit.
Considering most of the events I shoot are less than 100 participants I kind of like my on-line sales. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 09.29.05 |
->> Craig:
I can understand why your online sales may suck after viewing your website. I'm not try to be harsh here, just giving you an objective and experienced analysis. I apologize for the length but there were a lot of topics I think should be addressed.
Your site is not very customer/viewer/user friendly. It really needs some serious redesign work to make it more user friendly. Basically, you have an excellent product, your photos, in a substandard display. Visiting your site to look for photos is not really a great shopping experience. You site doesn't need eye candy, but it does need a few essential changes:
1. Redesign your pages so all the information fits on a 1024x768 screen. That is probably the lowest resolution screen a user might have. If the user has to scroll the should scroll down, not left to right.
2. Figure out a way to get you java pages to load faster. Two or three trips on a dial-up account waiting for the page to load would turn me off in a heartbeat.
3. Make your image database searchable. Every photo on my site is captioned and keyworded to make it easy for viewers and potential buyers to find the images they are looking for whenever they visit my site. I would recommend that you at the very least include the team, age group, and event in a search field.
4. This one is important . . . don't take your photos down after two weeks!!!!! Doh! Leave them up for at least a year or longer. What if the two period you posted images of my son falls between my pay periods? What if we take our normal three week family vacation to Europe during the posting period? Do I want to pay you $25 to look through 200 pics to find one image of my son or daughter? Nope.
The trend in my area because of the service I provide is most people wait until the end of the season to place their orders. Your customers may be doing the same.
If you are going take images down yearly do it at the end of February. You need to make your hard work available through the Christmas holiday season. Last year was my strongest holiday season in seven years by leaps and bounds even over the previous year of selling. Images from the previous two seasons sold just as strong as those from the current one for gifts to and from the athletes, parents, friends, and family. The point is your work isn't going sell stored on you your hard drive.
Both DJ and Jody offered two pieces of very good advice. Don't rely on your event sales as you only means of income. Jeez, you picked probably the most time consuming, labor intensive, competitive photographic genre to be in. Use the events coverage to get your foot in the door to easier, higher paying, less effort work like corporate work, weddings, and high school seniors. Use your site as they suggest to market your skills, not your photos! Seven years ago when I got back into photography part-time I did everything - everything - on speculation. Today, I have no time to shoot stuff on the fly.
Now if you have no interest in doing anything but sporting events that is fine, but if you want to make money you need a crew so that you can provide on-site printing. It is pretty much the expectation at many sporting events to offer that type of service and as many SS members who run event services will tell you (and you know I'm sure) you will make more money selling on-site.
Put together a crew you can depend on. It will probably take time, but once you have the personal go on-site. I would adopt your online prices for on-site sales, and then increase the online prices 20%. So, when some asks, "can I order online from you guys." You can say yes, but the prices are 20% more. That will really get them to buy then and there not later.
Finally, consider making part of your site a subscriber service. I was going to implement this service last year, but had a few project come up that put the idea on the back burners. Why not post your images for four weeks giving ample time for customers to view the image and purchase it. Then after that period move the images or gallery or event to the subscriber to the newly designed side of your site.
It would be set up so non-subscribers can view thumbnails only. Subscribers would be able to view images as the normal would on the active part of the site. Offer subscribers a lower purchase price (actually I would raise the prices on the open viewing end 20% - and keep you current prices as member prices) as a member benefit in addition to the large preview and other special offers you might come up with.
You can set up a subscription service through PayPal so that some figure like $2.95 or $4.95 is deducted automatically from their credit card every month. Beauty here is most people forget about online subscriptions until they see it on their bill. Even if they only wanted to join for a month you'll get two months of payments out of them by the time they remember and figure out how to cancel it. Most will stay probably five months netting you about $19.75 in addition to whatever they purchase during that period. Those with kids in mulitple sports or events will stick around longer for up to a year or longer.
A some point my site will offer a paid subscriber side. When I don't know, but it is an ideal way to generate residual income. Some of the benefits I plan to offer include discounted prices on reprints, free monthly downloads (PhotoNews branded videos or images), online newsletter, member contest, and more.
Now Delane said: "Craig...there are (3) possible reasons for your decrease in sales. a) parents can get these pictures week after week after week at "one damn tournament after another" so you no longer provide a unique product
or
b) your marketing isn't good
or
c) your pictures aren't that good"
So leads to a few questions you should ask yourself .
Your photos look great online! Certainly any parent looking for quality images would by them, but is your printer delivering a quality product (assuming you are not printing your own stuff)? That could damage your reputation and give you a black-eye.
Definitely, your marketing isn't good or you wouldn't have started this thread or be complaining about the lack of online sales. What can you do to reach more people and build a solid client base? What can you do and how soon can you improve your site? How can you place yourself above the competition? Who is your competition? We know Jody is for one and in a year from now she'll be a household name because she is marketing herself and services on a personal level. Will you also be a household name among youth athletes in your area?
Lastly, addressing Delane's first comment, are you in an over-saturated market? Everyone shoots soccer, football, softball and baseball. Is there a sport in your area that get little coverage or someone lesser talent trying to cover it? For example here - swimming, tennis, and golf get little coverage from both the local paper and even my service. Kinda stupid when the families of those athletes generally have higher levels of income than those in the other sports. Where is the competition low and the opportunities for success high? Answer those questions and take action. You will find the success you're looking for. |
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Brian Jackson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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South San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 8:35 PM on 09.29.05 |
->> We did an event recently and had the most number of onsite sales ever. 48.7% of orders were onsite, but accounted for only 39.5% of sales in $$$. If we hadn't had images online, we would have missed out on 60.5% of sales in $$, that's a significate amount of cash.
One thing that we've done is to extend the onsite discount to the first 7 days of an event for online sales, this has boosted sales from events for the first week after an event.
Also, keeping images online for only 2 weeks...wow! I don't think I could imagine all the sales lost if we took images down after 2 weeks. Well, actually I can: Going back 3 years, we would have lost 33% of our total gross revenue. 21% of total gross revenue lost if images were removed after 1 month. 11% of revenue came from sales 2 months after the event.
We tell people images will be online at least 1 month and might be removed due to space restrictions. If you have the space, those lingering sales can add up over time.
Another key is to get the images up ASAP after an event. If you can make the online viewing/ordering experience the same as they get onsite...it makes things A LOT easier as well. Again, cheap plug, but www.Action-Image.net is what allows this.
We've even saved carts onsite and made them available online after the event. In the process of automating this, which will really assist with sales.
good luck,
brian |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 09.29.05 |
->> Great advice Clark. Some real good information here. I have been following this thread because Craig and I have had some communication througout the LLB season and have been sharing some ideas.
I like the idea of hitting up the holiday season with some specials, discounts, and maybe some new designs. I'm planning on doing that myself as well as offering some new products.
I have contact information for all the people that have ordered thus far from the Eastern Region LLB Tournament. I am planning on doing a mass mailing just before Thanksgiving, hoping to get some repeat buyers. |
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Jon Ramirez, Photographer
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Red Bank | NJ | | Posted: 12:04 AM on 09.30.05 |
->> There is a lot of good advice and comments relating to this thread. I'm not going to tell you things that have already been suggested, except online sales for us has been relatively successful for us.
It takes a while to understand what works but more importantly marketing is key. You have to understand and listen to the public who is buying your product along with marketing before push your first shutter click at 8am in the morning .
Here what works for us:
We utilize our website to create a custom webpage for the particular event we are shooting. This establishes ourselves as the offical event photographer and also there is information on how parents , coaches. and friends can reserve or request there athlete to be photographed. Our webpage is directly connected to the Organizations website. Granted we may only received 15-20 request to the really dedicated parents, but it is 20 paid requests we receive before we set foot on the field.
We obtain all participating teams email addresses and do a mailing weeks before the event begins. Most directors do the emailing for us.
We make a presence at check in and registration nite. It has been a good venue for us to showcase our samples and take reservations. The two hours we stay there is well worth our time.......
A photo-station is set up to showcase and tantalize parents with our images. Collages and poster sample products are widely displayed. Always have a fulltime sales person onsite who know the products is very customer friendly.
Incentives given to early purchases online
All of this may sound like a lot of work, and it is. Theres no way you can be successful and do this part time or half ass expecting sales to just come in. You need to know your market and need to keep doing a vairety of sports and sometimes going out of your immediate area. Although T& I and tournament events makes up a certain portion of our work, you must cross promote your other services as mentioned above. Basically you can't have one foot in and the other out whether your printing onsite or online postings.
PS Clark, great input....... |
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Les Stukenberg, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Prescott | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:46 AM on 09.30.05 |
| ->> Recently on this thread there's been some great input and the only thing I'd like to add is ASK YOUR CUSTOMERS what they like and don't like about your site. I thought the way I put my images online was the best until I asked my customers and they want the big roping events broken down to the smallest denominator. I am in the process of doing that now... and you know what it actually makes it easier for me as well to upload them... Ahhh the genius of a customer... |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:40 PM on 12.28.06 |
->> I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to rekindle it to see if anyone made any changes to their web sites/marketing strategies, etc, and have you noticed any changes in your online sales? I talked about paying dues and long term marketing in this thread, and it looks like it is starting to pay off for me. My hit/purchase ratio is way up, and my web site has lead to other jobs/opportunities in the past year. I have added one or two galleries for people to just look at (like my 2006 Favorites, or one about my son mountain biking), but for the most part, I feel my strategy has been a success so far. I can even find my site when I do a web search, and I didn't list with any search engines! Aside from increased sales, one of the things that means the most to me is when people tell me they have my site saved as their home page (that's always a shocker to me), and when they take the time to send an email telling me how much they enjoy the images they buy from me.
Anyway, my point isn't to boast - it is just to reiterate that being successful will not happen in a flash. We must use the tools we have available, and kind of "massage" the process along. I hope that in the years to come I will be so successful, I will laugh at where I am now and still appreciate everything it took to get me there. Marketing, hard work, marketing, effort, etc.
Cheers,
Jody |
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Peter Gaby, Photographer
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Madison | WI | US | Posted: 12:14 AM on 12.29.06 |
->> Jody: Thaks for bringing back this thread.
I hadn't read any of the dates until you mention that it was old.
I am in the middle of working on a youth hockey league around here - and this is great info to look into.
Thanks again
Pete |
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Jim Leary, Photographer
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Island | NY | USA | Posted: 12:43 AM on 12.29.06 |
->> "and got tired of throwing away 1000's of prints"
I always wondered how photographers could do business that way. To print hundreds of photos "hoping" they will be purchased is not something I would ever do. How do you know who will be there when you return? So many parents drop their kids off or go with other parents - just doesn't seem like a cost effective way to go. The only time I would consider on-site sales is if I had stations at the field to do the photos right away. Since I'm pretty much on my own and don't have a "team" this option is not for me either. I do it all online and would like to offer some replies and comments on this subject...
"Contract out with the customer."
Very difficult to reach the masses this way. I would never even attempt it.
"I've come to realize only a few poeple will buy online, lots of people don't even have or know how to use computers, others are afraid to give credit card info"
John's assumptions here are way off. We are no longer in the day when computers were a foreign object. A very high percentage of people either have one in their home and/or office. "Only a few people buy online" ...WOW, are you way off! They were saying on the news recently that it is quite possible that 40% of retail purchases this holiday season were going to be done online. Did anyone drive to their local mall this season? The one by me (in NY no less) was not much busier than any normal Saturday. Online sales are booming, don't kid yourself and it's a great way to sell photos. Yes, there are those afraid to use their credit cards but even that is fading.
"Online sales are a joke compared to on site.(for me anyway)"
James, I don't think online sales will ever compare with on-site but its getting much better although I would say this, I'd rather sell online than make hundreds of photos hoping a certain percentage will be purchased. "A joke" -- no, not anymore but onsite will always be better. In the end, having printers onsite to do the photos on the spot will always make the most money but a lot of photographers out here can't afford the big setup and for them, online sales is a great alternative. I think what it really comes down to is how you advertsie and market your services and when you do online sales I believe you should be shooting events over and over again to the same customer base. Familiarity has been a big key for my sales - I do the action for several leagues over and over again every year and for every parent that buys one year and not the next, a new one comes along who didn't know about the services the previous year or just decided not to buy the first time around. This cycle repeats itself over and over when you expose your work to the same people season after season. Aside from that, a good presentation on the web, word of mouth and constant on-site advertising help sales tremendously.
There will never be a replacement for on-site sales but done correctly, internet sales can do quite well. Those failing miserably online just aren't doing it right. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:52 AM on 12.29.06 |
->> My on-line sales are great. Jody, thanks for bringing this to the top I didn't see it the first time around.
On-site versus on-line is in part a matter of the sport that you are shooting. If you are shooting a youth football lineup on a Sunday then your on-site sales will (in my experience) be lower than the web based sales. The fact is that at the end of the game there will be a mad rush to get off the field, out of the cold or snow or rain, into the SUV and in front of a TV to watch the NFL either live or Tivo'ed. Even with the most prudent ingesting at the end of each quarter people won't hang around to view the images. Not when they can do it from home where it is warm and dry. Our youth football sales spike at the end of the season when parents can cherry pick the best of the bunch. I have no complaints, we sold everything from single 4x6's to posters and trading cards. Our on-line youth football sales in both 05 and 06 were higher than expected (4 figures) and made me one happy camper. The key is to make sure that everyone knows what the website address is. Every Sunday EVERY car got flyered.
Tournaments where you have a captive group of kids and parents are a whole different animal. Wrestling for example does much better on-site simply because these kids are going to be stuck at the venue for HOURS. There are only 6 things to do EAT, DRINK, SLEEP, HIT the CAN, LOOK/BUY PICTUES, WRESTLE again. Then rinse and repeat up to three or more times. For wrestling we even setup an Epson 4800 on-site and crank custom posters on the spot. These people are here for hours. Tennis same thing two maybe three matches with 30 to 45 minutes in between, not much for mom to do but come under the tent catch some shade and look / buy.
Swim / Dive is a mixed bag. While parents can come to the lobby to take a break the kids are stuck in the pool area .
What struck me about this post is that from the time Craig made the first post to the time he announced that on-line sales suck, 24 hours 19 minutes passed. It has taken almost a year to get my customers to the point where they KNOW where to go after an event and it will most likely take even longer to get to the point where people just come as a matter of habit. Joey played yesterday lets go look for his photos.
Spec printing can and does work, just look at the cruise industry. Before digital they shot miles of film and ran the most efficient darkrooms. They had images of a couple of thousand people printed and on display for sale... overnight. All with a 3 or 4 man crew! Now they do it even faster. My last cruise they had the prints up before we even got back on the boat! If it was costing them money they wouldn't be doing it.
The BIG mistake it to stop selling. By any, every, and all means. Once the pictures are taken you have already made the investment. You burned a few more frames off the life of the camera, and a few more hours of your own life that you can't get back, there is only one option left sell sell sell. |
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