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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Opinions On PhotoReflect.com? Better than Shutterfly???
Chris Halper, Photographer
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Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 10:38 AM on 06.19.05 |
->> Hello All,
I signed up at Shutterfly.com Pro Galleries earlier this year.
I was generally pleased because it was the first "Pro" option I had found. They have been reliable and the prints have been good.
But, I am not sure how seriously they are taking their Pro sales. You pay $200 and get 10 gigs of space. You set your own prices and they take 15% of the sales.
The downside is they do not offer digital sales and my customers are demanding that. Also, however cheesey it may be... the consumer side of their site offers photo calendars, mousepads, mugs, etc... and all the pro side gets is basic prints to sell.
I recently discovered Photoreflect.com. I was hoping to get any reciews people may have.
Photoreflect.com is more difficult to set up. BUT!!! The options may make it worth while.
1) Pick regional photo printers instead of one head office. Great for me, because I can choose a canadian distribution center.
2) Offers many many many more print options.
3) Optional "Manual Fullfillment Orders." So basically, the site will take the order for anything and I can print & distribute. For options like digital sales, CDs, or anything else the site doesnt offer.
4) Quantity Discounts to encourage multiple orders.
5) Free Email Postcard... so friends and family may also be tempted to order.
6) Personalized URL.... YourName.Photoreflect.com
7) Subfolders if you wish to seperate your event by team number.
8) No hosting or set up cost $$$. Just the commision which is the same as shutterfly.
Anyways... enough options that MAY make the extra set up time worthwhile.
Anyone out there use photoreflect? How is their quality? Print times? Shipping service? etc...
Would love to hear back. |
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Bill Miller, Photographer
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Thousand Palms | CA | USA | Posted: 11:53 AM on 06.19.05 |
->> Currently we use Photoreflect. The system is easy to use and the software is free. Orders are emailed to you and you transmit them to the lab of your choice. The key is picking a good lab from their list. We use "All American" in Texas, and their turnaround is excellent. You then have the option of offering any product the Lab has. Their fees do not include lab fees.
You have complete control over pricing, allowing you to set different prices for events. Also you can password an event.
The good thing is they mail you a check every two (2) weeks like clock work.
Download their software, and test it out. Their are no charges until an order is processed. |
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Mike Brice, Photographer
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Northwood | OH | USA | Posted: 12:39 PM on 06.19.05 |
->> Check out exposuremanager.com
It has the easy of shutterfly and the variety of options as PhotoReflect.
The service is like Photo Mechanic and the site is constanstly updating to better serve the event photographer. |
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Joe Livingston, Photographer
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Douglasville | GA | USA | Posted: 3:09 PM on 06.19.05 |
->> Also, smugmug.com seems to work great for me with all the features needed and is so easy to work with. You can have your own personalized page link like the rest and customize it however you want.
www.actionshots4u.smugmug.com |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 3:38 PM on 06.19.05 |
->> Chris,
I've been with photoreflect for about three years now and at the onset I was looking at printroom and shutterfly. I didn't like the print quality of either one but I liked what Photoreflect offered at the time via EZ Prints. I find the photoreflect options you mentioned and ease of use extremely streamlined for my work flow.
The main advantage with photoreflect is that you the photographer has control over who finally print your prints. Initially they only used EZ Prints and they do a great job but like Bill I added All American Photo to my labchoices. The nice thing is that if I have an extremely urgent order that may require special handling or even local home delivery for a good customer you can pull the order yourself and take care of your customer.
You can use different labs for different uses and even if you receive an order from a gallery assigned to let's say lab "A" but you want to change it lab "B" you can do that by changing it in the order one image at a time, unfortunately, I haven't figured out yet how to change it for the entire order as the print order is associated with the pricing setup file for that particular gallery.
The only downside to Photoreflect is the fact they are pc friendly only. Some mac user-photographers I know who tried photoreflect experienced some problems. I recently bought a G5 for my photo and video editing but I am keeping my windows laptop for my primary employer purposes and thus I'll be able to continue to use Photoreflect.
The optional "Manual Fullfillment Orders" is great for anthing you can print & distribute as well as digital sales, CDs, or anything else the site doesnt offer.
It also allows to create local orders and even though you can't output from it, I use it to process pre-paid orders of let's say custom created designs, or for when I do a portrait session I can upload the entire shoot and select the proofs to be shipped directly to the customer without me having to do any running around.
The personalized URL "yourname.photoreflect.com" is great but I found that it can be a long name to write down.
Subfolders are great but as one pointed out it would be great if you could assign different pricing structures to the subfolders. For example, you could post all images of a game in one subfolder and then have a different subfolder for custom created 10X15 prints with two images and team and player name on it. The current setup will allow people to order any size of that.
Another advantage is that you can redirect the print to another file if you like to do so. Let's say the customer orders a print of an item and calls you up and says can you maybe add a name or logo to it. You could do that by creating the new image in photoshop and then redirecting to print that newly created image.
One downside to photoreflect is that for locally created orders you are charged from your credit card and although they have gotten better at it. They batch process those local orders so you'll see a charge on your card from them but you don't know which orders are associated with that charge so you have to call. Which can be a pain if you have a lot of orders transmitted like that. They are working on either an email notification or a report to be included for when they charge your card for fulfillment.
When I receive my check I notice that the net earnings are sometimes a few cents different than what it reported when you first printed the order. I keep track of my business expenses and sales in Quickbooks and I spend about half an hour each time I get my check tracking the pay out differences and making the adjustments in Quickbooks before I can record the cost of fulfillment, s&h, ecommerce and credit card fees as well as the gross sales.
If you like to talk about this Chris feel free to send an email or just call me |
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Sharon P. Fibelkorn, Photographer
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Corona | CA | USA | Posted: 9:24 PM on 06.19.05 |
| ->> I just signed on with Printroom.com and I am totally in love with the service! I feel like I have a really good assistant handling all my studio stuff - well, if I really had a studio. Anyway, I recently looked at all the services (thanx to the great threads on SS) and found Printroom to be what I was looking for - professional lab work, a variety of products, reasonable sign on fee, more than enough space to store images and real people to bail me out when I get nervous. Hey, it's my first time with a service so I get nervous. :) |
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Pablo Galvez, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | CANADA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 06.19.05 |
->> Chris,
I also use Photoreflect.com for my online sales. I think photoreflect is great and I have been using it for about three years. You can see what I do by going to my website at www.CanProPhoto.com and selecting "Find Your Photos" at the top.
Pros:
- Very easy setup/maintenance using their new "darkroom" software which is free
- No monthly fees eating into your profit (no sales, no cheque, no problem)
- Easy updating, customize your logo into the watermarks
- Great support for the software
- Overall great stuff
Cons:
- For you and me, a big issue is the fact that although they accept international orders, it is a US company that handles all the payment processing and they do not accept canadian funds. I really feel like I lose money on this because in general, Canadians don't like paying for things in US funds. Probably goes back to when the exchange rate was so brutal for Canadians buying US products that now people are still scared of the exchange rate.
- Your cheques (payment) come in US funds so you may have some more bank fees to process the US cheque at your local bank.
- Can't put multiple photos on one layout (like two different 5x7" prints on one "sheet". For our pricing structure, we don't offer individual 4x6 or 5x7 prints, a minimum purchase of a "sheet" is required. I got around this by offering a single 5x7 for $20 and you get the second (different photo) for free. Same with 4x6's. People seem to be able to understand that so far.
Another note is that our experience has been that approximately 1% (I may be over-estimating here) of our business comes from online sales. The only reason I even post photos online (for the most part) is to please one or two people who may want to access images after an event. It's barely worth my time/effort. For this reason, Photoreflect is great because it's quite easy to "drag/drop" an entire directory and subfolders and hit "upload" and I know it won't cost me a dime to use.
Good luck,
-Pablo |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> Chris,
I've been with PhotoReflect for a couple of years and have had no problems. The few times that I've had a question, it was quickly answered by their staff.
Unlike many (probably most) of the others, I take care of all print orders myself. I know that PR has some very good labs available, but I like to be able to see the finished product prior to shipping it to a customer. I know that this creates more work for me, but this way I can see every order. Obviously, I also take care of the shipping. The charges for shipping and handling are something that you can set up in the PR website.
So far, it has worked well for me. I highly recommend them.
Mike |
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Roger Ogden, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookline | NH | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> Chris,
I’ve been using Photoreflect for 18 months. I have no intention or real need to look at anything else. It does everything I need and I think it is ‘easy’ to set up. Not sure why you think it’s hard? I use All American lab, too. I’m very happy with them and they have very good customer service.
That being said, and remember, I’m happy, I’ll tell you some things that annoy me about PR.
1. When you add the images using their software, you have to rotate some of them by hand. I use Canon stuff…Why they can’t figure this out I have no clue. It only takes a second per image, but it’s a real annoyance. (Support says they can’t do anything about it)
2. There’s no way to put images in a specific order online. Worse yet, the order that they come out in is last image taken, first image shown. So, when I shoot a game I’ve got all of the Jube images first. That stinks. Also, images like 3 images of a long jumper, take off mid-air landing are backwards. (Support says they can’t do anything about it)
3. While you can create sub-folders in the tool, they all go to the same place, your main event page. I’d love to be able to create a folder on the web site for a school and then have subfolders under it with that school’s events. Not possible, at least from what I know. So, I’ve got pages and pages of events with one school’s events all over the place. Not easy for my customers to find their images.
4. I add a copyright to my images once they are purchased. The tool to add text works inconsistenly and I usually have to do it twice before the text comes out the size I want. |
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Jeff Davidson, Photographer
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Santee | CA | USA | Posted: 2:03 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> I've been with Photoreflect for a bit over 3 years and love the service. Like Mike I print all my orders at a local lab so I can see them before I ship.
The only issue I have with them is the 3% credit card processing fee (this is on top of the 15% commision so it is actually about 18%) I have no problem with this for credit card orders BUT when a client pays by check they still deduct this 3% as well.
Also you do not see a copy of the order until the check arrives in their office in Colorado and clears their bank. Meanwhile you have a client asking about an order you have not seen yet (could be a couple weeks)
Besides that they are great. I get about 40-60% of my orders online and they are easy to use. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 2:03 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> I've been using Printroom and have been quite satisfied. The issues I have with them are also issues with the other providers. As far as quality is concerned, Dirk's comments about the print quality of Printroom are intriguing. Not only have I been thoroughly pleased with the quality from Printroom, but Dirk confesses that, at the time he came to that conclusion, both companies were exclusively using EZ Prints, and "they do a great job".
I guess if I already had a great relationship with one of the labs on Photoreflect's list that would make that choice a more comfortable one to make. From my POV, having to then select which lab to use and interact with only adds to the complexity of each transaction. Obviously both Printroom and Photoreflect rely on outside labs to do the actual printing, but at least with Printroom, that lab is not my concern. I only deal with Printroom, and more importantly, my customers only deal with Printroom. Why add another spoke to the wheel if I don't have to? Now if they'd only handle my custom trading cards... |
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Gary Jones, Photographer
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Rocklin | CA | United States | Posted: 4:25 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> I've used Shutterfy Pro Galleries for a couple of years and and very happy with them. I left a voicemail with photoreflect to get more info, based on the positive comments in this thread.
Here's my positives on Shutterfy:
- excellent print quality;
- fast and reliable order fullfillment;
- good customer service;
- nice sales reporting tool, with a thumbnail link on each order so you can see the photos that were just purchased;
Here's "areas of improvement" for Shutterfly Pro Galleries:
- no option for customer to crop prints;
- all thumbnails are displayed in a 4x6 crop;
- no photo merchandise (mugs, calendars, etc.)
- customers can't group orders that are in separate galleries;
- watermarks are "canned", so I can't use my own custom watermark;
- no manual fufillment option;
With photoreflect:
- can I design and use my own watermark?
- create a custom size, which may be a poster print with custom artwork that I create after it is ordered?
- get a sales report of a specified time period and gallery? I need this to track commissions I give to schools and leagues.
- can customers order from different galleries and have it shipped as one order?
Thanks,
Gary |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 4:34 PM on 06.20.05 |
| ->> Wouldn't it be great if you use that site for editorial sales as well and they didn't take any percentages out? Why doesn't someone design a site like that? |
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Paul Maddox, Photographer
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Manchester | UK | England | Posted: 4:37 PM on 06.20.05 |
| ->> Joe, there's small issue I have with smugmug.com. Why is there a "Save photo" link on the gallery page?? If that isn't encouraging stealing images I don't know what is. |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 11:23 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> Dave
I think you may have misread my comments since I didn't confess to anything (just kidding Dave), but I never said that they both were using EZ Prints at the time when I did my evaluations. For clarification, at the time I went through the selection process between Printroom, Photoreflect and Shutterfly, Printroom was producing their own prints, I don't know who Shutterfly's printer was and Photoreflect was using EZ Prints.
The research I did was based upon ordering about twenty or so different prints from each service from a variety of photographers from different galleries and types of events. I know that since then Printroom has made some changes but I wasn't impressed with the quality of their prints.
The color balance was often too yellow or magenta, an off brand and flimpsy paper and the glossy prints looked just too dull, it almost looked like they were produced on an Epson printer.
I understand that it is the photographer's responsibility to color balance the images before uploading but I purposely selected images that looked great on a color calibrated monitor and were similar yet the prints I received from Printroom compared to the Fuji prints from EZ Prints looked of lesser quality.
At the time, Photoreflect - via EZ Prints - was by far more consistent in quality and that combined with Printroom's unfriendly interface with Windows environment made Photoreflect by far the better choice.
I understand that there are pros and cons to each store front company but the flexibility of Photoreflect is difficult to ignore. I am certain that Printroom has made some changes and I've talked to the Printroom folks at the Luau's. Their recent prints that I've seen are good but once you are settled in a work flow system it becomes harder to change.
Generally, I abide by the rule that if if it isn't broke don't fix it. Plus your customers tend to expect reliability and switching back and forth between services will only confuse them even more and it may have an adverse affect on your sales as some people don't want to search.
Hope that clarifies it a bit. |
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Stefan Postles, Photographer
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Canberra | ACT | Australia | Posted: 11:32 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> Mr Witte, your dreaming!!
Its not possible! Can you imagine how many executives would have to take a pay cut if they stopped taking a percentage of other people's hard earned dollars?
It would be like an axis upon which our whole industry would spin. 5 points for positive thinking though ;-) |
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Kyle Coburn, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 11:42 PM on 06.20.05 |
->> I have used photoreflect for almost 5 years now, I never switched from ezprints when they opened the system to any lab. I have been pretty happy with EzPrints and was unsure about switching labs. However after two bad turn around time experiences with ezprints a few months ago I have been asking around for opinions on the other labs.
I think I am going to try All American Photo. |
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Rick Rickman, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 1:53 AM on 06.21.05 |
->> I have never used phtoreflects but have used Printroom for several years now. I have sold tens of thousands of dollars worth of prints through them and in all those prints have only had one complaint from a customer. I called Printroom and they immediately refunded the customers money and let them keep the print.
The prints are spectacular and consistant. The print color and quality match regardless of the size ordered. Some of my customers order an 8x10 an a 20x30 of the same image and the color and saturation matches. That is a phenominal feat.
The Pro sign up fee is only $99.00 and you get all the space you need for display of galleries. The guys at Printroom are true professionals and they are ready to help all the time. They take suggestions to heart and have done great things with their site offerings.
If you had the chance to use any of the e-labs out ther I'd suggest Printroom. You won't be disappointed. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 2:15 AM on 06.21.05 |
->> Stefan-
You're probably right. But how cool would that be? One of these days someone is going to see this and realize there is vast potential. |
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Ed J. Szalajeski, Photographer
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Portland | ME | USA | Posted: 5:34 PM on 06.21.05 |
->> I have to double agree with Rick Rickman.
I have been using Printroom.com for 3 years now without many complaints. The one complaint I had was due to a cropping issue, that I might have been responsible for, before uploading the print.
How easy can it be, I look at Printroom.com as an order and shipping system if I sell onsite, I go home enter the orders at printroom.com, they print, package, and ship the orders to your customers.
PLUS, they are a front end for your store, with a pretty nice user interface.
What I do not have time for, is building my own solution, since I am smaller than most businesses, and I do not need to handle the print.
I spend my time shooting, and they worry about the printing, packaging and shipping.
Do I worry about quality, yes, but I order my personal prints from them and have them shipped to my home, so I see what they do, and how they do it.
The few issues, I have had, have all been taken care of with a call to my Pro Account rep. They help you figure out what went wrong to avoid it in the future.
The other feature I like about printroom.com, is that you can group your galleries, and if done right with Redirecting URL's or Masking URL's you can point customers to groups in Printroom.com and they think they are on your site.
For instance, www.harnessracingphotography.com
if anyone has any questions about printroom, ask here or email me.
They also run some specials from time to time to get new pro accounts, I think they had one during the winter last year for sportsshooter.com members.
Best regards
Ed J Szalajeski |
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Mike Pittman, Photographer
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Cary | NC | USA | Posted: 12:15 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> I've used PhotoReflect & PrintRoom, and PrintRoom has my vote hands-down. PhotoReflect's customer support was lousy for me. I've heard that unless you're doing their upgraded options, you get none.
I sent them a logo to use for my watermark at least 3 or 4 months ago, and it still isn't up yet. I moved, and have had nothing but great experiences with PrintRoom since. They worked with me on getting my gallery setup, gave me pricing advice, and worked with me to get my gallery there to look like my home page ($50 option) so customers feel like they've never left.
Great experience, and their CS reps rock. |
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Robert McClory, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 2:00 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> I used to be with Photoreflect and due to policy changes I disliked (pre-charging my credit card for lab fees instead of just taking it out of my customer's money that they already had in hand) that were put in when I was there, non-existant Mac support and generally poor customer support, I began to explore other options.
I have been with Printroom since than, about 2 years now, and I have had only one order in hundreds that has been a problem and that was as much due to a stubborn customer as anything.
Their customer service is great and they actually listen to ideas you have and most likely will implement them if they are good (see: selling files).
I have looked at Shutterfly and see nothing much there that makes me think they are better. Again, Mac support is a big issue, and on that front, Printroom is far ahead of everyone else.
It seems like Photoreflect/Express Digital is big with larger companies who also use their full suite of software for event photography. That is not me, and Printroom does everything I need and more.
RM |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 2:14 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> Robert-
PR deducts the lab charges from the order (this is detailed on the statements we receive every 2 weeks). I don't have any ide why they would "pre charge" you.
There suppoirt is horrible to say the least. We're jsut glad that we don't NEED support on a regular basis. Even getting them to acknowledge a problem or sales opportunity is almost impossible. But...they allow me to sell more pictures and make more money so it's a deal with the devil as far as I'm concerend.
Delane |
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Robert McClory, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 2:45 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> Delane,
I should preface any comment about Photoreflect I make by saying that I ceased to pay attention to them after I left over 2 years ago.
Before I did leave, they changed their policy from deducting lab fees from your profit and paying you the difference, to a system that charged your credit card for lab fees each time someone placed an order. I and the only other photographers I knew that used them were pissed and did not understand why they needed us to directly pay lab fees when they had already collected the payment for the order from our customers. When customer service was contacted about this, their response was that it had to do with the switch from EZprints to the Labtricity system and there was nothing they could do about it. They also added in that they didn't see why it was such a big deal. There were more issues concerning their bi-weekly statements, and other things like a software update that zapped many of my previous events, and caused others to have all pricing set to my cost (oops, we should have told you about that, they said after it was too late).
This may have indeed changed back to the way it was when I first joined Photoreflect over 3 years ago, but I can assure you it was the main reason I left them. If things have changed and for the better, then my apologies to the PR crew.
The main thing is that like many others have stated, online sales is a very small percentage of my work, and I want it as seamless as possible. If I have to babysit it, then it's not worth the effort.
RM |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 2:55 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> After this thread started I decided I owed it to myself to at least go through the motions of opening a Photoreflect account, and probably get a few test prints and gimmick products from some of their affiliate labs.
In the process I became confused, impressed, overwhelmed, exhausted, then numbed senseless, all within two hours - without chemical assistance!
The #1 "plus" of Photoreflect is also its biggest problem:
LAB SELECTION. Being able to pick a lab, and its corresponding catalog of products, from a list of "Labtricity" compatible companies is pretty cool. I wish EZ Prints would offer custom two-sided trading cards, but they don't. If that were a deal breaker for me, I could switch to a lab that does offer such a product. OR, even better, I could use both labs for product fulfillment, picking the best offerings of any number of labs to create custom packages. How cool is that?
Now let's think about that for a moment. You put together a custom package with products from three different labs. A customer who buys one package will end up getting three separate shipments. From three locations. With three shipping charges. One lab may be in the same state as the buyer and rightly need to charge sales tax, while the others do not. One box may arrive safely, while another does not. I'm getting a headache just thinking about the possibilities... so I'll settle on just one lab, for my own sanity and peace of mind.
Unfortunately, again because Photoreflect's software has to take into account the multitude of different offerings from its member labs, fewer assumptions can be made when putting together that "package". For example, if want to offer a 5x7 print in matte, lustre, and glossy finishes, you have to offer those as three separate "packages". With Printroom I click one checkbox indicating that I wish to offer a 5x7 at my price, and the customer then chooses finish, cropping, borders, etc., - or not, if I don't wish to allow it - at the time they place the order. WAY easier to set up and maintain, because the Printroom software is optimized to the EZ Prints catalog.
Photoreflect would appeal to me if I were a relatively low volume, high value seller - hell, if someone where paying me $500 for a 16x20, I'd take the order myself, offer every finish possible on Fuji, Kodak, canvas, or Charmin if that was what the customer wanted.
But I sell volume. I'm an event photographer who processes thousands of images every weekend, handles dozens of orders during the week, and I want everything to be as simple and straightforward as possible. At this stage of the game I am forced to conclude that Printroom does that for me better than Photoreflect.
I'll still get some sample products through Photoreflect from the two labs that I selected, if for no other reason than to make sure that I'm not leaving anything on the table. It is also possible that I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, since most of my customers want glossy, so not even offering matte finish might not be that big of a deal. But my several hours of playing around last night has convinced me that Printroom is still the best vendor for my business, and also convinces me that most of my wishes for Printroom, at least those regarding product offerings, are really wishes for EZ Prints. So EZ Prints, if you're listening, I want to offer fully custom trading cards on real cardstock. I'll design the front and back thankyouverymuch. Offering two-side printing on coffee mugs and t-shirts would also give me a good kick in the revenue stream. Thanks for listening. :-) |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 2:56 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> Robert said: "I want it as seamless as possible. If I have to babysit it, then it's not worth the effort"
I AGREE 100%...
I've been with PR since October 2002, we never had the problems that you are discussing. No billing issues, no bi-weekly statemt problems, no reset of pricing. Sorry to hear, but if you found a better way for you that's GREAT!
Let's make $$$!!! |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 06.22.05 |
| ->> Is it realistic for a cost effective way to set up a website like Printroom where you could process the orders yourself? That being said I'm not sold at all on internet sales. Case in point is recently another ss.com member photographed (2) different baseball leagues. One was a 40 team league where the photographer was able to go back to the facility where the teams were playing with proof books. The other was a 92 team league where the teams play all over the place so the only option was to email all of the parents as well as putting a link on the leagues homepage directing people to the photographers Printroom account. The bottom line was the 40 team league generated eight times as much in sales as the Printroom account for the 92 team league did after three weeks. I don't think this is a reflection on Printroom as much as you have to be in front of the customers, or find leagues/tournaments where you can. Please enlighten me on how internet sales can be really cost effective because I don't see it. |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 4:17 PM on 06.22.05 |
->> Remember that Chris is interested in features that may not be available thru Printroom or others. So the question is, does Printroom and others also offer the ability to do manual order fulfillment, multiple labs, subfolders, etc.?
Chris,
I’m a Photoreflect user and as happy as a clam using them. I too offer products that I wish to process in our office. With Photoreflect, I was able to choose a lab in my area which gave me the ability to visit their site to learn their process and know what the folks look like. Nothing like a personal relationship with those who are providing your product. Only Photoreflect allows that. I haven’t used multiple labs yet, but as I grow my business, I feel comfortable knowing that I am not limited to only offering the products that my current lab offers. I can choose another lab for specialty products if I need. I also like the fact that the software never affects the original file. When making adjustments to an image it only changes the way the thumb-nail looks on your screen. And when sending the file in for printing, it sends the untouched file with a data file attached. The data file tells the Photoreflect software on the other end what adjustments need to be made to the printer driver to print the photo correctly. It’s the printer making the adjustments to the image, not the software to the image.
Photoreflect is part of Express Digital. In fact, I use Express Digital software to manage my entire workflow from building catalogs to load my images into, placing orders, color corrections, adding borders and publishing to the web. It’s saved me a huge amount of time. And as we all know, time is money. Anyway, the reason for me mentioning that Photoreflect is part of Express Digital is so that those who have had bad service in the past know that things have been drastically improved today. When Express released a new version of their software over a year ago, it was so popular that sales went up an unexpected 300% making it real difficult to keep up with the support needed. So many customers experienced poor service and moved on to other services. I too, wanted to switch but I had recently made a huge investment into their software and therefore was forced to learn it. Today I can honestly say, it is why I have a business. It is the most brilliant software on the market for event, T&I, weddings and so on. Photoreflect works very much like the Pro versions of their software. If you learn to use it, you will find nothing better out there. Express is currently working on updating the features of Photoreflect making it even more powerful for both photographer and customer. Oh yeah, one other thing, IT’S FREE!!! As they say, they make money when you make money.
For those of you out there who follow my post and updates know that I am critical of my work. I am also extremely critical of the quality of the prints going to my customers. I couldn’t be more pleased my software choices. If anyone has any questions about it, let me know. I’d be more then happy to help.
Cheers,
Devin |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 06.23.05 |
->> I give Dave credit for at least trying out Photoreflect he brought up a good point that higher volume operations have more work with Photoreflect, I agree that it is sometimes cumbersome to sit through the orders and process them but on the other hand it is your quality control.
I've taken advantage of customer mis-orders or other details such as them ordering pictures from the wrong kid, or suggesting another image, upgrades or even when knowing that it is a good customer offered to add text to a straight print, which in the end results in a personal touch that customers really like. But I don't see Photoreflect as a workflow that per se is an advantage for just a low volume / high priced operation. Just talk to Delane Rouse as he runs a high volume operation on Photoreflect.
The other issue where you offer items from multiple labs is something that would generate your completed product to be shipped from two different locations. I agree with Dave that EZ Prints is fairly restricted in their selection but there are other labs that do offer a wider array of products. Personally, I don't offer a whole lot of novelties but mugs and t-shirts are a nice addition to my selection. I only hesitantly added them to my line after I received several customer requests for them and it took a while to find a lab that could provide them at an acceptable quality. |
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Robert McClory, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 2:55 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> I hate to harp on this but I wonder what the percentage of professional photographers are Mac users for whom Photoreflect is not even an option as they offer VERY little Mac support, and no software managment program that I know of? I would think it is a higher ratio than the general population by far. Point is that despite my previously stated bad personal experience with Photoreflect, they do a ton of things well. However, the bottom line is that until they offer REAL Mac support I cannot even consider them a solution for my needs. To me, having a professionaly oriented online sales/photo managment software solution be PC only is like a company making a program like Quark, Photoshop, or Illustrator PC only.
RM |
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Mike Pittman, Photographer
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Cary | NC | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> Michael: For just little ol' me, I shoot maybe an event or two a month. I have no intentions of offering on-site delivery of prints at this time because to me, that in and of itself isn't cost effective. I show up with enough gear and lights and such as it is now. I own a 12" powerbook, and an Olympus P-440 printer. There is absolutely no way on this pretty little earth I'm going to plunk down the money needed to print the miriad of photos needed to satisfy an event customer of any magnitude.
This weekend, I'm shooting a reunion that wants on-site prints. I have two hours to shoot, then turn around and print anywhere between 30 and 100 8x10s. That's going to push my capability to the max.
I've not really thought through this (honestly, no point in lying) but to me I can't fathom the $$$ and trusted people it would take to do on-site delivery of prints. For me, PrintRoom is the next best option I have. If it weren't for PrintRoom, I'd be handling all the image sales myself, sitting in the floor sorting through images from a wedding that 5 different people ordered. To me, it's as much about convenience as it is massive sales.
On that note, if anyone has ideas on breaking into the event market despite having a freaking day job, let me know. |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 4:08 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> I hear you Robert.
I want to be a Mac user. But this software is what makes my business work. So I'm keeping to my PC. I attended one of their training seminars and asked why they didn't support Mac. Fact of the matter is, they just don't have the man power or budget at this time to do it. They started out as a small specialty company developing solutions for theme parks. From there they have grown into a great solution for event photographers. However, they are still a small company. To support Mac would require a huge investment. The company has to determine whether that investment would pay off. They are not an Adobe who has a product for every photographer on the planet making annual sells in the millions. They are a very specialized product that still needs time to grow. They don't plan to ignore the Mac users forever. It's just a matter of time. Where they really need to put their money is in doing a better job of marketing how powerful their product is. Revenues would increase and budgets could be developed for future R&D. If people truly understood how awesome it is, how easy it is to use and how many hours of time would be saved when compared to the alternative solutions, Express Digital and Photoreflect would be unstoppable. If any of you want to increase your understanding of what it can really do. Let me know. I would love to see more Express Digital users out there.
Devin |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 4:15 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> Robert-
Belive it or not, most of PR/ED's customers are NOT professional photographers. Especially those that use Publisher (it's free remember).
Also (this has been mentioned several times in other threads), if you do the math, it would be to your financial advantage to purchase a PeeCee dedicated to PR/ED. Trust me. You can get a decent PeeCee with a large hard drive for less than $750. If you want to make REAL $$$, PR (even after purchasing a PeeCee) is either the best or (worst case scenerio) 2nd best solution out there.
We need to think of these things as tools that allow us to "work less and get paid more", or "shoot more and get paid more".
Delane |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 4:41 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> Delane makes an excellent point. The PC and software needed to "make it happen" is cheaper than a 400/2.8 or D2X, but is just like those in that it is a tool for making money. Having said that, there are also some hidden costs that may be involved, including spares, additional PC compatible software to purchase or license, etc.
I haven't yet downloaded and installed the trial version of the ED management software to know it could realistically replace another copy of Photoshop (for example). Having another machine to backup and repair, yada-yada...
Still, if you always approach your business with the Murphy's Law attitude, you will inevitably prove that law true. Being an independent contractor is a riskly proposition in any field or market, and it is those people with the extra drive and willingness to take risks who ultimately succeed in any given market. Is that going to be you, or the other guy? |
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Joe Livingston, Photographer
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Douglasville | GA | USA | Posted: 4:59 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> Quote from Paul Maddox
"Joe, there's small issue I have with smugmug.com. Why is there a "Save photo" link on the gallery page?? If that isn't encouraging stealing images I don't know what is".
*****************************************************
Paul the Gallery’s that have the "Save Photo" option available are the ones that are NOT right click protected.
The Gallery’s of the Sheriffs Office and Police Department K9 Units were left available for image download because I shot their Training Exercises as a "Pro bono" for them to use for their Local Departments and Personal websites. They had asked if they could download the images when needed so I left those available for download with no right click protection.
All of the other Gallery’s are right click protected and will not show/offer the "Save Photo" option and can not be downloaded.
www.actionshots4u.smugmug.com |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 8:11 PM on 06.23.05 |
->> Dave,
I recommend trying ED out. Keep in mind though, it's not a replacement to Photoshop. Let me know if I can help you better understand its power and how it can save you hours of work without compromising your quality. I know that you have a day job so I would assume saving hours would be something you'd be interested in. The $500 Darkroom Core version is probably all you need to do it. Once you learn it, you'll be kicking yourself for not doing it earlier.
Devin |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 12:52 PM on 06.24.05 |
->> Mike Pittman,
I'm not talking about printing on site. The formula that works for me is to print 4"x6" proofs, and have them available at future games where all of the players/parents will be. 4"x6" prints cost 17 cents each, and we sell them at $8.00 all day long. People take them right out of the book, instant gratification. Anything they want larger than 4"x6" we print and send to them. If you have 100 teams at 12 players per team and you print 5 images of each player you would have 6,000 4"x6" prints at a print cost to you of $1,020. If you sell (1) out of every 46 you printed you have broke even. If you sell 10% of what you printed you brought in $4,800 minus your print cost of $1,020 for a profit of $3,780. 20% of prints sold equals $9,600 minus $1,020 for a profit of $8,580. This in addition to all of your enlargements and custom framed items. It also means you are face to face with your customers, allowing the opportunity to shoot other activities/sports that their kids are involved in. Shooting 300-500 images per game and throwing them on the web seems crazy to me. If you read my last post earlier on this thread I again ask the question, how are internet sales more effective that being on site in front of your customers? |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 1:59 PM on 06.24.05 |
->> Michael-
Internet sales allow the photographer to SHOOT MORE. The internet allows me to sell images 24/7/365, with no very little overhead (your $1020). In this case, neither of us have accounted for a photographers salary (so assume thats the same)
I can sell, every day, all day while I'm selling I'm out shooting more stuff that generates more revenue. I can only generate revenue if I shoot. So *I* want to shoot more hours and do all the other stuff less hours.
However...I do love going home and only having to count money and prepare a deposit.
The reason that it seems crazy to you (Shooting 300-500 images per game and throwing them on the web seems crazy to me)is because you don't do it that way. Obviously it's a viable way to do business. While I was typing this order for (2) 16x20 prints just came in:
------
Subtotal: $135.94
S&H: $13.00
Tax: $8.94
Total: $157.88
E-Commerce Fee (13.00%): - $14.95
Payment Processing Fee (3.00%): - $4.74
Bulk Gift Certificate Adjustment: - $0.00
Total Payment $138.19
---------
I don't have to leave my desk to process, print and deliver it to my customer. It works for me.
Delane |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 2:35 PM on 06.24.05 |
| ->> If you are making money that's great. My point is in my earlier post where two leagues in neighboring towns with the same photographers shot a 92 team league and a 40 team league. The 92 team league whose images were marketed only via printroom did only 1/8th the sales of the 40 team league where the proof book method was used. I will gladly shoot less to make more if I find that I'm making only a fraction of sales marketing only through the internet, as opposed to being out in front of the customers. In the case I referenced, it wasn't even close. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 2:44 PM on 06.24.05 |
->> You can't just look at the raw numbers because there are a ton of other factors involved:
1. most importantly what was the age/skill group of the participants? (younger kids sports have higher averages, and "better skilss does not translate to increase in sales"
2. were they travel teams?
3. has they been at a tournament in which photography was offered the week before?
4. how good was the marketing?
5. were the teams out of state?
these are just a few of the questions I'd have to ask.
Michael...you're right...some sales are lost via the internet becuase of the "out of site out of mind mentality" as well as instant gratification increasing sales at the location. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 3:14 PM on 06.24.05 |
| ->> Delane, I absolutely do look first and foremost at the raw numbers, and how they got there. To answer your questions these two leagues were in house/non travel 7-14 year olds. Being in house, I don't believe there was any other action photography made available to them, they both did have the option from another company for posed individual/team shots. As far as the marketing, the photographers had a direct link on the homepage of the 92 league directing people to their printroom account, as well as emailing EACH participants parents the same information. If this is an aberation than I'd like to know that. We have the opportunity to shoot several "tournaments" where our only means would be internet sales. I really don't want to shoot all weekend and make 1/8th of what I could make the way we do it now. There is no good reason for me not to want internet sales to work, I'm just not seeing a sound reason why sales are so off other to conclude that people even when directed to printroom don't step up and purchase as when we make it EASY for them. |
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Richard Orr, Photographer
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Longmeadow | MA | USA | Posted: 3:43 PM on 06.24.05 |
->> In the past 90 days I've sold $11,000 in prints on PhotoReflect. The net is about 68% after printing and mailing. I think that is pretty good when you consider the time and effort it takes to get prints out.
I crop and review each print before it goes out. 90% of the time its done in ED, but the other 10% they are run through photoshop and then uploaded through the Labtricity system.
I found the support at ED and PR to be pretty good. I got the name and number of one of the account maintenance people and they are very responsive about providing credits when I need to do so.
I upgraded to ED this spring when i took on some on-site printing jobs, as well as when I picked up some team and individuals for some decent sized leagues. The ability to set up packages and fulfill border requests that easily has paid for itself in time and effort. I just wish there was a way to integrate merchant processing with the online uploading. That would make it perfect.
I looked at Shutterfly and More Photos, but the difference did not seem worth the effort. I was happy and it would take some effort to move me. |
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Gene Kellogg, Photographer
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Watford City | ND | USA | Posted: 6:43 AM on 06.25.05 |
| ->> I have MAC's only and am not going to get a PC. So what can I and can I not get going with Photoreflect. Can I still use the survice or not. I looked on their site but could not find any info. |
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Fred David, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 12:50 PM on 06.25.05 |
->> Has anyone used or tried photo reprint services? Our newspaper is developing a renovated photo sales site and we're considering hiring them to run the site. They run several other newspapers' sites (mainly college papers) and also have an option for photogs and students to have their own sites.
They seem to be similar to the other sites in that they process orders and print the images for you but it'd be great to hear if anyone's used them and what their opinions of the company are. |
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Rick Berk, Photographer
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Holbrook | NY | USA | Posted: 3:10 PM on 06.25.05 |
->> >>>Michael Proebsting wrote:
->> That being said I'm not sold at all on internet sales. Case in point is recently another ss.com member photographed (2) different baseball leagues. One was a 40 team league where the photographer was able to go back to the facility where the teams were playing with proof books. The other was a 92 team league where the teams play all over the place so the only option was to email all of the parents as well as putting a link on the leagues homepage directing people to the photographers Printroom account. The bottom line was the 40 team league generated eight times as much in sales as the Printroom account for the 92 team league did after three weeks. I don't think this is a reflection on Printroom as much as you have to be in front of the customers, or find leagues/tournaments where you can. Please enlighten me on how internet sales can be really cost effective because I don't see it.>>>
Michael-
Not to disagree with you completely, but onsite selling and online selling are two completely different animals and have to be approached differently. Throwing a link on a league website and emailing the parents is not nearly enough, and more than likely, a waste of time. We do hundreds of events a year, most of which we sell online. We do very well with it. Events we have done onsite have done well, but in 9 events out of 10, onsite sales are the same as online sales for most events for us. In fact, this year, for a soccer tournament, we sold only online, when the year before, we had sold onsite. We did better numbers online than we had done the previous year onsite. Onsite selling means a big outlay somewhere, either in viewing stations, proof sheets, or some other proofing system. Online means more of a marketing effort, which can be done for a fraction of the cost. Our online sales have grown each year we've been doing events, and account for a huge chunk of our business. If you do onsite and online together as we do, even better. Our onsite sales will typically see another 25-35% in sales online after the event has ended. But you can't just throw the photos up, add a link to a website and hope to get sales. Just won't happen. |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 11:59 PM on 06.25.05 |
->> Rick,
Do enlighten us why don't you. You talk about your success with on-line sales but didn't share any ideas with us. I'm listening...
Devin |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 06.26.05 |
->> "Online means more of a marketing effort, which can be done at a fraction of the cost."
Please elaborate.
I'm not going to dispute that you have been successful with online sales, but how was this accomplished? If individually emailing Every parent of the participant in the league as well as having a link/notice on the homepage of the leagues home page on their website is not enough, what am I missing? I am extemely happy with my on site sales, that's not the issue. What I am looking for are specific answers as to how on line sales can even come close to what I am doing onsite. Just to throw out some ballpark numbers, I would say over the course of the year I "average" $200 per team in orders. (I do action only, no team/T&I at this point.) This includes baseball, football, soccer, and lacrosse accounting for over 90% of my total sales. I'm thinking I am to the point where I will pass on events where my only avenue is online sales, unless through the generosity of fellow ss.com members I can figure out how to "make" people go to a website. It's unbelievable the number of people who come to our booth, take down the information on a pre written order sheet and say, "I'll email or send this to you this week", and I never see the order. If I can't nail the people face to face I have little faith after the fact they will go on their own time to a website, search through hundreds of images and place orders on a large scale. Sorry to sound pessimistic about it. Again, referring to my hypothetical situation on an earlier post, I'll outlay $1,000.00 in print cost all day long as long as I'm doing ten times that amount in sales, (that's my personal expectation that I hit about 80% of the time). Sure it's great not to have that "overhead" that online sales would provide, but if my sales are going to be 1/8th as much online as onsite, forget it. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 06.26.05 |
->> "...search through hundreds of images..."
This may be a significant part of the problem. I've come to the conclusion that if a potential customer can't find their kids' photos within two minutes, the sale is doomed. Some have even less patience. You must at least break down the photo groups by team, game, inning - whatever - that will enable parents to quickly find what they're looking for. This is especially important for getting Aunt and GrandMa to buy. I love grandparents!
Example: Mom and Dad are extremely proud of 8-year-old Johnny, but he's largely a benchwarmer for the Quackers. Johnny is lucky to get two innings of play, and that is usually in the middle of the game. If Mom can quickly go to "Quackers vs. Croakers, 5th inning", you have an excellent chance of making a sale, even if it's Johnny standing at the plate for his inevitable strikeout. If the kid gets a hit, you're golden! On the other hand, if Mom has to weed through 4 previous innings of play just to find Johnny, your percentages go down dramatically. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington, DC & Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 2:54 PM on 06.26.05 |
->> Dave, in theory you're right...make it easy for the customer to buy our products. But, for msot sports (baseball, football, basketball, etc), all you have to do is keep the images within the game in chronological order and the parents know how to find it i.e. skipe pages to get to the section/time frame they are looking for.
Delane |
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Mike Pittman, Photographer
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Cary | NC | USA | Posted: 9:24 AM on 06.27.05 |
->> Michael, Delane, Dave, et. al. This seems to me that it basically boils down to what you do with your time. Me, I love my free time. I work 8-5 M-F for a software company in Cary, NC. I sit on my patoo all day writing business use cases, test cases, testing things, and writing up trouble tickets (and if I'm not doing that I'm on SS.com, gopack.com, news-observer.com, or any other miriad of time-killing web sites). I go home, check my e-mail, fulfil any print orders I have, then go play with my dog, cook dinner, work in the yard, clean the house, basically do anything but sit in front of a computer working.
To me it's not worth the time making prints, stuffing envelopes, collecting money, worrying about bounced checks, etc. when I get home. I would rather make 20% and have my nights to myself than spend all of my waking hours working. My feeling has always been if you don't have time to enjoy the $$$ you make, why make it?
I'm not slamming anyone here, if that's your thing that's your thing. It's not my thing. I did the whole sit in the floor and sort through 300 4x6 and 20 5x7s for one wedding, and I'll never do that again. Some day, if I ever get the guts / cahones / stainless steel set to go pro and pro only, I'll change my tune I'm sure. But I get about 5 hours a night to Mike, and I like my Mike time. :)
(please note: all things above are subject to change w/o notice at any time without any consideration for those who read and think "dadgum, he's lazy" because I'm really not, I just like my time off work... future employers: I'll work like heck if you want me to... especially if it's photography.) |
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