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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
MAC or PC? I am contemplating
Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 9:50 AM on 05.26.05 |
->> I am currently in the market for a desktop that will be solely used for image and video editing. I've come out of the dos days and have been a windows user for well over 12 years. My main computer at this point is a windows based laptop that performs well but I want better performance for larger projects.
My only experience with MAC computers was in my photoshop classes at college. I wasn't disappointed or ecstatic about them the only thing that created problems for me was applying the photoshop short cuts between the two different systems.
Other than the purchase of a desktop, the issues that are of concern to me at this point is having to invest more money in new software and/or having to maintain dual sets of software because I am keeping the laptop for mobility and because my primary employer has a windows based network to which I connect at work. All business software such as Quickbooks, Excel, Outlook, etc would stay on the windows side so I wouldn't have to change all that over.
Again, the shortcut key commands will be an issue in Photoshop because it plagued me during my finals and if I go with a mixed windows/mac setup I will have to learn both shortcut keys. However, more importantly is the question whether or not I can set up a network with both systems effectively without too many headaches.
What I am asking of the membership is if they could give me some insight into the pros and cons of a mixed windows/mac network or even operating them seperately without creating a network for them. Of course, if any of you can give me other perspectives into this or point out other factors that would or could affect my choice.
I welcome any information. |
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Jim Davidson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 9:56 AM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> This often breaks down to religious bickering. However, I would recommend staying with the system you know. Also, It is a lot cheaper to buy only one piece of software for both the laptop and the PC. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 05.26.05 |
->> It's rare that you'll see a photographer spending his own money on a Windows laptop. Go to any major event and look down the line at photogs when they're transmitting and you'll see that 90 percent of them are Macs and the ones sitting there bitching about problems are usually Windows users. The ones using PCs are usually using company-supplied machines bought by an IT department that doesn't give a shit about photographers and their needs.
Aside from being designed from the ground up for graphic applications Mac OSX is inherently more stable and less suseptable to viruses. After all, if you're a 15 year old Russian kid writing a virus do you want to write something that will attack a "cool" system like the Mac's or one that'll do damage to the 90 percent of the people out there that use Windows? |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 12:51 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> If I were a 15 year old Russian kid writing a virus, I would LOVE to go down in history as having written the first virus for Mac OSX, as would thousands of other cyberspace malfeasants. There is a lot of ego involved in that crowd, and the Mac is now very high profile. I doubt there is much merit to the "security through obscurity" myth anymore.
The Mac OS is simply way more secure. That's why there are no viruses in existence for it. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:52 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I switched from PCs to MACs last fall. (Though I had slightly more experience with Macs than Dirk has...)
The major difference that you will experience from the practical side of Picture Editing, is that the Mac is just faster, more capable, and renders images better. I can quickly load everything into Photo Mechanic, edit a few hundred pictures, and open 50 of them simultaneously in Photoshop without too much hesitation. This is on an iMac G5 with a gig of RAM, or a 12" Powerbook with 768MB of RAM. My PC Desktop of the 2.4GHz and 1GB of RAM would do this, but too slowly for me. My Sony VAIO laptop would have choked completely after a dozen images.
The rendering of the photos is so much faster, that you should experience. On top of that, the graphics just look better on Macs. It's a little hard to get used to the fact that you can't force the Macs to do things the way you want them; but the overall operation is much smoother than PCs.
As for the maintenance of different types of software. This will be a problem. I had to re-buy a lot of software. But, there is software on the Mac that you didn't really have anythign the equivalent of on the PC. I love Toast, I'm starting to like Transmit, iChat is much better than PC chat clients, Photoshop and Photo Mechanic just work better.
It takes a little getting used to, but solely from a photography standpoint. Macs are just easier. The whole thing about viruses...the haven't been as prevalent for macs. But, with the popularity of the iPod, Macs are also coming back into fashion. And, that is drawing out the hackers. In the next couple of years there will be as many problems on that front as PCs, so keep security in mind as you set up any Macs that you buy. Gone are the days that people can say, There are no viruses for the Mac... |
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Oscar Sosa, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | USA | Posted: 12:58 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I started using Apple when it had a clear advantage over what Windows systems could do in graphics and processing power. Now Windows systems can do the job just fine, although a Mac system is easier to set up, use and maintain.
If I were a Windows user I would not switch over to Apple. From a business perspective, the higher cost of an Apple system does not justify the expense. If you can get a student discount on the hardware or software, or find a really good deal on a G5 desktop with some software, then I'd switch over. But a new Mac system, from scratch at full price compared to an equivalent Windows system just doesn't seem cost effective from my perspective.
What you might consider doing is pricing a new Windows system with all the bells and whistles you want or need and then looking at eBay and pricing a used Mac system. I recently purchased a G5 1.6 mhz single processor system with 2 gig of ram and a 300 gig HD for $600. It had a damaged exterior case and the motherboard doesn't read the CD rom drive. Everything else works great, so by using an external CD drive case, I've got a G5 system very cheap.
if you take your time and shop around you can get good deals, but if price is the main concern, Windows can do the job just fine and at a significant savings.
Oscar |
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Monty Rand, Photographer
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Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 1:08 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I would have to disagree with Oscar only from a personal experience as far as price goes. My uncle has bought 3 desktop systems (all PC) and they have all crashed and burned. I tried to convince him to buy a mac as they are very, very reliable. He has spent more than double what he would have spent on a comaritive Mac system. He has since bought a Mac and said he had wished he took my advice earlier. I use my Macs for event photography and they are constantly being dragged outside in numerous bad enviroments (dust from softball, baseball and soccer tournies, 35 degree days during fall soccer, cold hockey rinks and other stuff). The Macs just flat out perform any other machines I've had or seen. Reliability, ease of use and the look of the machines is just awesome. I don't know how many times people have just walked over to my tent to look at the Apples.
Just .02 |
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Oscar Sosa, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Monty,
I humbly eat crow. Now that you mention it...Macs are alot cheaper. I have my iBook 500 mhz that I bought new in 2001 for $1100 and am still using. All I've done is upgrade the ram. I'm still using my G4 400mhz machine I bought in 2000 and just recently got a great deal on a G5. If I break down my hardware purchases (not counting upgrades) I've spent less than $3500 on computer purchases in the past 6 years. That works out to less than 600 per year and I have 3 working and up-to-date computers that do a pretty decent job.
i don't know how often PC users buy new machines, but I don't expect to have to purchase a new processor for several years. Hopefully someone will add to this and we can do a better comparison.
Oscar |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 1:52 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> For video... buy a Mac. No question. |
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Steve Mitchell, Photographer
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West Palm Beach | FL | United States | Posted: 2:14 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> Once you go Mac you never go back... :) |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 2:31 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Nick--There are no known viruses for the Mac OSX. As far as anyone knows, those days have just begun and as of yet there is no evidence those days are numbered. The reason Windows is so beset upon is the system is full of security holes. I'm not computer scientist but from what I've read the Mac's security makes it nigh-impossible for a virus to propagate.
About cost, I've never tried this myself, but I've read several times that if you price a Dell brought up to spec against a comparably equipped Mac, the Mac is usually cheaper. |
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Wally Nell, Photographer
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SAN DIEGO (La Mesa) | CA | USA | Posted: 2:34 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> For me, you get what you pay for. If you spend a lot of dollars on a PC system, then you will get a good system. If you spend a lot on a Mac you might get a good system. I think for the money you spend, you can get more for a PC system than for a Mac. I have 2 laptops, both Dells, one for the road and one a little bigger for crunching; and they are both very quick, and I am fully satisfied with them. For me I have just found Macs to not be as intuitive as PC's. With regards to viruses, that is why you have Norton and Mcafee and those pieces of software. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:45 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Dave, i hate to be the one to burst your bubble...but
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/0,2000061744,39164062,00.htm
http://news.com.com/Mac+users+face+rare+threat/2100-7349_3-5424883.html
And, not to worry anyone, but if a competition such as this exists, can a real virus threat be far behind?
http://www.virusbtn.com/news/virus_news/2005/03_30.xml
Granted that these viruses didn't amount to anything, and the nature of the Mac OS does make it much harder for a viruses and such to do any real harm. But, these things are coming. Better safe than sorry.
That being said, I would still choose Macs over PCs at this time. The only thing a PC is better at is playing games. ;) |
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Chris Halper, Photographer
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Toronto | On | Canada | Posted: 2:47 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> Anything you can do on a MAC, you can do on a PC... the reverse is not true. |
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
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Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 2:51 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I'd say that I'm neither a PC or Mac zealot, but I've used MS based systems for the last 20 years and don't have anything against Macs. I for one think the "knock" against Windows for its security flaws is very overblown. In 20 years of computers and being a web surfer since the early 1990's, I have yet to have a "security" issue with one of my PCs. I think it's due to the application of "common sense". I kept the OS current, I use virus protection software, I don't open attachments from strangers, etc., etc. The same is true for my wife's PC, as well as my kid's machine.
This notion that going to Windows will open up a horror of security issues is WAY overblown. I also don't buy the notion that Apple has created the World's first "virus-proof" OS.
My advice... Use what works for you! |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Dirk, I have all Windows based PC systems and I have never had any OS software issues, viruses or crashes. I work with a lot of clients that are all Mac systems and I am lost when I need to use their systems,When they need help on a project and are stuck,I pull out my laptop and get it done for them quickly.They are always amazed that I use a PC based system, but what they don't realize is that it is because I know what I am doing is the reason why I can make it look easy not because of the sysytem I am using.
They say the Mac is so much easier to use but I think that is only true when you are first learning a system, if you know your PC/windows enviroment then I say stick with it.
I agree with Wally that for your money it does go farther with a PC system, and the software available for a PC is more readily available.
Those Mac systems sure are pretty though....Just too much money!!! |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 3:10 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Nick, from that same article:
"Opener is a "rootkit," or a set of software tools that intruders can use to gain access to a computer; it's installed either through a known vulnerability or password-cracking. Rootkits don't spread on their own, as viruses do, and require administrator access to be installed." |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 4:22 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Nick,
No worries, my bubble isn't burst. Opener was not a virus, and could not even exist "in the wild." It was, as I understand it, basically a script and had to be installed by the user. It could not self-propagate to spread across cyberspace. You'd have to give it permission to infect your machine, which is a far cry from a real threat. I remember "opener"... I think it got about five minutes of serious atttention. |
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Greg Francis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 5:13 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> I ran Macs at newspapers for 9 years. I've run PC's at home for 13 years. These windows of time are simultaneous. I can say Windows systems are just as good as Macs. Mac systems are more expensive than PC's. And the Windows environment is always stable. A big advantage I have with Windows is, I can rotate images in the Windows XP file browser, while a fellow Mac user gets pretty frustrated in how to rotate his verticals off their sides. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Santa Ana | CA | USA | Posted: 6:40 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Dirk, this is an e-mail I juts got a few days ago from a friend:
I finally made the jump to a Mac dual G5 (2.7) with 4.5GB Ram and dual 23” cinema displays. Windows helped make the decision. My main processing machine with WindowsXP had been operating poorly with poor performance for sometime. (Launching Photoshop would usually result in approx. 10 error windows during load up.)
I decided to reinstall Windows XP and reformat the boot drive (I keep all of my work on external FireWire drive, so I felt I was safe.) I backed up the C drive and started the re-install and went to bed. Woke up around 2 am to go check on the install only to find a big message that the install failed. In the process, my “D” drive (the one that I do all of my in-progress work on) had been damaged and was unrecoverable. Panic.
Well, after two weeks, I’ve been (1) able to get my main computer back up, (2) recovered all of the files from the damaged drive the Windows would not even recognize by using a $45 shareware disaster file data recover program and plugging the drive into a different computer and (3) bought the Mac for processing work.
Anyway, an almost traumatic situation.
And from his 2nd e-mail to me:
Yea, I just had it with all of the viruses, flaky instability of Windows and
the fiasco with the install of the OS was the last straw. I'm getting used
to the Mac. The differences aren't too huge, but there are differences and
its taking a while to get used to it and trying to find the shortcuts. |
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Gary Rather, Photographer
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Santa Cruz | Ca | US | Posted: 7:13 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> This is like the camera brands.
Mine is better than yours.
I would think you read all this and make your decision on what you really need.
Both will work just great. I think perfomance for the price is on the side of windows.
I would want all the systems where I am the one buying the software to be the same.
At $600 buck for Photoshop I don't want to have to purchase two copies.
Kinda like the glass on cameras the hardware is cheap, the software is where the money goes.
As well as setting up and keeping up two types would really get to a person after a while through in a Linux fiewall box or web server now you have even more fun. |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 7:41 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> The statement of Macs costing more than Windows based systems doesn't hold water in my book. Similarly configured systems, using the same quality components, will show them to cost the same hardware-wise.
Window's systems tend to come with more hardware, but it's the lowest cost that the vendor can put in at that moment, and most vendors will change it as soon as the profits pull them in another direction. The vendor will ensure that the system as delivered will run but if something needs to be upgraded or replaced with a different part then the user's job gets much more difficult because compatibility isn't job-one. I've heard too many people (industry and users) laugh at the phrase "PC compatible" or "Plug 'N Play".
A Windows system requires greater involvement by the user when configuring, maintaining and upgrading. Most users don't want to know how a computer works but techie types consider it a machismo thing to know about IRQs and COM ports, .dlls and drivers. They are not the majority of computer users anymore, so systems that force the user to get involved at that level only generate annoyance.
Microsoft has made great gains in improving the integration of Windows, but it still lags behind Apple's years of human-interface design and studies. As a Mac developer for many years, I can attest to the level of control Apple has over their OS and interface, and the amount of care they put into the design of their elements and hardware, and how their software programming manuals emphasize UI testing, proper use of interface elements, and, in general encourage the independent hardware and software developers to emulate Apple's style. That translates into an overall experience that is cohesive, from the initial purchase of the system and its basic installed software, to adding third-party hardware and software.
For years I used PCs, and the dissimilar use of mouse-buttons, the various locations of similar functions in menus, and poor interface design of programs used to make me scream. A system isn't just the hardware and OS. It's also the software required to make it able to get the job done. Those "programmer choices" among various program interfaces are not "creative choice" or "design innovation". They're slow-downs, contributors to user confusion and inefficiency. Keeping track of things is the computer's job, not mine. I want the system to be consistent and not make me remember what copy and paste is from one program to another.
Apple's slogan of "It just works" isn't some advertising BS. It's the feedback from users who've experienced both sides of the fence, and told Apple what the difference was between the two.
I supported homo and heterogeneous systems for years and years as desktop support for a Fortune 100 company directly covering several hundred systems, the tech. lead for support for over 100 sites across the Americas with over 1000 systems, the manager of fifteen desktop support people managing 1000+ systems at one site, as a developer for both platforms, and in my own personal investments. Been there and done both professionally, and creatively, and, after over 20+ years, the only things in our house are Macs.
I got tired of having to tinker with systems. I wanted something that was a tool, not a hobby. My several-year-old 500MHz 15" G4 Powerbook with 512MB RAM, still runs Photoshop nicely, concurrently with a browser, AppleWorks and PhotoMechanic. It's had the OS upgraded from MacOS 9 to MacOS X, each time with no problems. It's acting as a file server along with my test HTTP server for CGI and site development. It'll be spooling files to my printer and files to my wife's 12" PB as I edit in Photoshop. Like Nick, I've had thirty or forty images open in Photoshop at once, and it was still responsive and usable... though ... probably unlike Nick, I did it by accident because I was typing faster than my brain could process and told PhotoMechanic to edit a folder's worth of files. :-)
Apple's conversion from the old 68K-based OS to MacOS X has been one of the greatest success stories for PC vendors yet. My investment in hardware and software remained intact, yet I gained stability and ease-of-use along with extra processing speed. How weird... a system software upgrade that actually made my old system run faster and with more stability without requiring new hardware. Sounds like Apple was being stupid - think of all the lost revenue from forced obsolescence ... or maybe they have a different attitude about customer service and cost of ownership?
That "Mac's cost more" idea?. What level of service would be delivered by a several year-old 500MHz Windows XP system with 512MB of RAM, serving files and print jobs? |
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Greg Francis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 8:33 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> I'm getting quite a bit of service from a 1998 PC. Windows 2000 NT OS/ 392mb RAM. It does just fine for Web surfing and office work, and printing all contact sheets and invoices and running PS7 all at the same time. |
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Greg Francis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 8:34 PM on 05.26.05 |
| ->> and it's a 433mhz AMD chip. |
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Vasha Hunt, Photographer
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Opelika | AL | USA | Posted: 8:39 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I have to work with Windows at work, and I have the joy of working with my Mac at home - I try to do as much with the home Mac as possible. The Mac system makes more sense and is engineered towards human thought - the Windows machine feels more arcane and nonsensical to me. A good example is a multi-card reader - on a Mac, just attach it and put a card into it. The flashcard shows up a a volume on your destop with the camera name, so everything is obvious and makes sense. On Windows (2000 is what I have to use - XP may handle this better) the computer makes you go through driver installations, then shows 5 or six letter drives on your "My computer" folder. Put your card in and try and guess which of the five new letters represent your flashcard. Then you can try to rename the "H" drive to be something that makes sense or you can try creating a shortcut. It's little things like that in Windows that I find not as workable.
Switching every day is not too bad, you tend to make a mistake once, then get the feel of the system each day when you switch back and forth. For example - I'll hit Control-Z once or twice on my Mac before my reflexes readjust to the fact that it is Command-z and vice-versa. I have a bunch of F-keys that represent comonly used Photoshop commands that are the same on both systems, which also helps. Photomechanic is about as equal across the platforms as you could ask for. While I wish that I could go all Mac, I find that the constant switching is not distracting, day to day.
Good luck either way.
Vasha |
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
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Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 9:53 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> I thank those who have provided me with different perspectives. Price is not an issue as a matter of fact, the window and mac systems I am looking at are only $200.00 apart in price and that is not bad at all.
I did talk to Adobe in regards to all my Adobe software I own and they have all my registrations on file (another good reason not to buy bootlegs) is that by paying for s&h they would provide a license for the mac side and ship a mac version.
Today, I met with an Apple tech and I will be talking to him some more in the next few weeks, using some of your input to pick his brain, but the dual processor G5 looks like a nice machine to work on, especially with that 23" cinematic monitor.
The only program I couldn't convert would be my Adobe Video Collection (Premiere Pro 1.5. Encore, Audition and After Effects) and I'd have to either invest in Final Cut Pro. I did notice that the G5 had iMovie and iDVD, which could probably fulfill my needs at first but how flexible are those programs to generate presentations?
One fellow SS-member called me and pointed out the fact that I have a photoreflect website, so maintaining a windows system side by side is almost a must but the laptop can do that.
My primary employer has a windows based LAN so I would have to retain a windows machine anyhow plus I'd keep my Quickbooks and Quicken data on the windows machine.
Thank you for those who have contributed, it is much appreciated. |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 10:13 PM on 05.26.05 |
->> Regarding needing a Windows machine in parallel to the Mac: There are PC/Windows emulators that run on the Mac and are solid and established programs. They're typically recommended for occasional use since they won't run as fast as the Mac underlying them, or an equivalent PC. It's pretty cool to see though, especially if you're running a Unix session in a window too.
Adobe has been cool about understanding that people switch between systems and can't afford to repay the costs for the full software packages. As much as we complain about the cost of Photoshop, it's cool that they'll make life easier when they don't have to.
The dual processor G5 is a screamer. Regularly I hear from the Photo Mechanic developers that I need to see how fast PM runs on the dual G5. They're pretty proud of the performance of that combo.
Apple's iLife package is pretty good, but won't do what Final Cut Pro will do. I was able to make a nice DVD slide-show presentation using iMovie and iDVD last year. There were some glitches when adding special dissolves and transitions and I heard those were fixed but I haven't had cause to use the duo since then. I have heard that Apple recommends Final Cut Pro for serious users, and that it's giving a lot of more expensive apps a real run for the money. (I don't recommend iPhoto over PhotoMechanic and Photoshop. iPhoto is pretty nice for making web-galleries though.)
Both QuickBooks and Quicken are available for the Mac. The data should move without problem.
Macs integrate with pure TCP/IP and Windows networks very nicely. Apple learned a long time ago that they'd have to provide that cross-compatibility and have worked to make it part of the normal Macintosh experience. |
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Vern Verna, Photographer
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Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 1:07 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> just for the record guys i have had a worm on a mac , been about 8 years ago but they do make viruses for macs. the problem is it when they infect one and then go in the address book and r email to ur address book, when they hit a window machine they sit there and do nothing the same way a windoze virus sits on my mac and does absolutely nothing. so say u have 10 addresses in ur address book and one is a mac, it infects one for every 10 emails. with a windows machine it hits 9 out of every 10 emails and spread much faster. so needless to say it isnt any fun for a 14 year old russian to write one for a mac plus as someone said it is a whole lot tougher cause the mac os has fewer security holes in it not to mention us mac people upgrade our software more often than the windoze people cause just like everything else on a mac it is easier to do.
by the way guys windoze was copied from the mac os many years ago (mac sued but the govt threw it out). have u ever seen a copy as good as the original???
buy a mac and never look back. they dont crash!!! period. a good windoze machine crashes once a day lol. photoshop was written for a mac (i played with the beta on an apple iici back in the late 80 early 90's, so naturally it works better. excel was written for the mac. so was pagemaker and quark.
plus a mac looks so much cooler. |
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Guy Rhodes, Student/Intern, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 1:37 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> "buy a mac and never look back. they dont crash!!!"
I've been a mac user since 6th grade (that was way back in 1994), and in all fairness to my Windoze brethren, I gotta say that I can't agree 100% with that statement. I've crashed my G5 several times doing complicated layer stuff in Final Cut Pro.
OS9 used to lock up on me all the time.
Every OS has its flaws, and the end-user is largely responsible for the success or failure of their given machines through proper maintenance, etc.
By the way, Vern, did you see my post over in the pet peeve thread? ;) |
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Greg Ferguson, Photographer
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Scottsdale | Az | USA | Posted: 2:52 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> I've crashed my MacOS X Mac a couple times. I've also crashed my PCs at work and seen them spin off into the blue-screen of death many more times.
Often the Mac will let you force an app to quit before it crashes, and, if you can get a terminal window open, you can start killing apps, or force a reboot before things totally get hosed.
Windows 2000 and XP are a lot more stable than Win/NT was, and infinitely more stable than Windows 95, just as MacOS X is greatly improved on the pre OS X versions.
I think on either system the apps get into a memory-shortage (no matter how much RAM you have you can still encounter it if you try hard enough) and then the system will become unresponsive, and we lose patience waiting, and pull the plug. Several times I've thought mine was trying to crash, so I walked away and let it sort things out, and came back ten minutes later, and the windows I'd been opening or closing would have completed, and whatever situation was occurring had finished, and the system was happy again.
Being trigger-happy is never good with a computer, but sometimes you do need to pull the trigger. Knowing when is the trick. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Canyon Country | CA | USA | Posted: 6:37 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> Dirk-
Look hard into the switch. I know you will, as you always do before a big purchase, but look at the cost/value side of things. Make sure it will work in Dirk's world of photography.
I know that you are aware I'm a mac user, but moving software was the big cost with most switchers I know. As well, photoreflect can work with a mac under Virtual PC. Drop and drag baby.
Best-
Julian |
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Neal Vaughan, Photographer
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St. Joseph | MI | USA | Posted: 7:01 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> I'm happy with both. I like knowing that with a PC, my hardware options are not limited, and that I can upgrade as I see fit - for much less $$$ to boot. The interfaces are a draw for me; the mac is slower but easier on the eyes.
I'll take exception to Jim Colburn's post about windows laptops. I'm quite happy with my personally-bought dell laptop, thank you very much! |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 9:35 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> "Anything you can do on a MAC, you can do on a PC... the reverse is not true."
Wrong. If you need to run a Windows program on your Mac just get Virtual PC. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 9:38 AM on 05.27.05 |
->> "The only program I couldn't convert would be my Adobe Video Collection (Premiere Pro 1.5. Encore, Audition and After Effects) and I'd have to either invest in Final Cut Pro. I did notice that the G5 had iMovie and iDVD, which could probably fulfill my needs at first but how flexible are those programs to generate presentations? "
Check out Final Cut Express. It's a "light" version that has more power than iMovie and sells for around $300 or so. It might do what you need. |
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Amir Gamzu, Photographer
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Ann Arbor | MI | USA | Posted: 12:47 PM on 05.27.05 |
->> Ok, first I amazed at what some people are saying in this thread, in that there are so many 'lies', or at least statements that are not true. I don't have the time to go through and point them all out.
second, before I give input, I'll tell you a bit about my computer history. I started programming in 1980 with the Apple, and my first computer I got was Apple IIe around 82/83. Shortly after that my dad got a Windows PC and I hated using it. It was back when you had to do everything in DOS. But I did use the computer to connect to BBSs (bulletin board systems, what existed before 'the web'). My next computer was a Mac Classic and then learnt Photoshop (2.0) on Macs. In 95 I went to buy a computer and made the switch to Windows, and it took me a long time to get comfortable with the windows OS. Then in 97/98 I was using Macs at work and it took me a long time to get comfortable with Mac OS. I have been using PCs for all my work since I left that job in 2000. I just started using Macs again at the community college where I teach (just 4 weeks ago). So I have used both systems quite a bit.
Now, what this leads me to is that simple fact that I am a member of neither religion, I don't think one machine is better then the other. When I bought my first PC in 95, I did lots of research because before photoshop 4.0 the program didn't run very well on PC's at all. But with 4.0 things changed. At the time there were a couple of magazines that were running side by side tests of Windows VS Mac, and while the macs could perform the same functions slightly faster, they did so at a much higher cost. I feel the only way to compare the two systems would be to run a $3000 mac against a $3000 pc, both put together by a techie who knew how to make a good system. No one has linked to any such test, and if you google 'mac vs pc' you will get lots of useful links. While this link doesn't compare how fast they run software it looks at the system as a whole;
http://www.systemshootouts.org/
Now lets talk about running things faster on one system or the other, first it changes monthly or more often as new stuff comes to market. BE VERY CAREFULL of what you read, it isn't hard to make a test give you the results that you want, here is a link to side-by-side running of photoshop and other graphic applications that seems to be a fair test, as you can look back at version I and II and see that they've worked to make it fair, they still could be biased, but I think they did OK;
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/11_nov/reviews/cw_macvspciii.htm (says the new dell 'trounces' the G5 in speed)
Now, what we need to know as photographers is how well the two systems will compare when running photoshop and fotomechanic, so whos got the link for me?
Now, the next thing to address is which system crashes more, and someone wrote "buy a mac and never look back. they don’t crash!!!". That is not true. My friend who is renting some of my office space right not has the only Mac in our office. His machine crashed a few days ago, and it took him many days to get it back up and running. I can't remember the last time I crashed one of my windows machines. Now this changes depending on how the computer is set up and what computer we're talking about. My old dell 266 megahertz machine did crash on a regular basis (win95), but so did the G3 I used to work on in 97-00. Since then I haven't used much mac, but I haven't had any problems with windows crashing since XP came out.
Another thing I hear all the time and just hate when people say it is 'macs are so much easier to use'. I just have to laugh at that. It took me a very long time to get used to windows OS when I first switched over, and now I feel just as 'out of place' when trying to get a Mac system to do what I want. Both systems are about the same ease of use. You just have to learn what ever it is you will be using. Every one who tries to tell you that one system is easier then the other will be pointing out something that their machine of choice does better, but will ignore things that the other machine does better.
Finally, I have tried not to 'push' one system of the other, but I do have an opinion that is based on my current use of Macs at the school where I teach. I don't like using the Mac OS. I am used to windows and find it much more comfortable. Unless I was shown that I could run photoshop and fotomechanic MUCH faster on the mac, I wouldn't even consider making the change. There are many keyboard shortcuts on the PC that don't work on the MAC. Also, even if you get a two-botton mouse for a MAC (or hit alt-click) there are way more options in the PC when you do that then in the Mac OS. When you type in a crop size (say 4in X 6in or 400pixels X 600 pixels) in the MAC you have to type in the 'in' or 'px' while in a PC you can click and a drop down menu of choices comes up. Using photoshop in Mac, I am much slower as there are many shortcuts that just don't exist on the MAC. One example for those who will be saying 'what the hell is he talking about, more shortcuts on a PC', if you want to get to the Image Size dialog box on a Mac you have to use the mouse to click image, then click image size. On a PC you just type alt-I, then I and it pops open. We use keyboard shortcuts because they work faster then using a mouse, and I hate to have to use my mouse unless I need to.
the moral of the story, I have grown so comftorble with one of the two OS's, and the two systems are so close in speed and what they can do, and they leap frog over each other on such a regular bases that untill Mac take a real strong lead again, they are too close to bother switching systems. Macs are great, and they have some wonderful advantages, and also many dis-advantages, PCs are the exact same. Use what will make you happy. Just don't become a member of either religion, keep god in church, not on your desktop. Watch out for Dogma. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Amir Gamzu, Photographer
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Ann Arbor | MI | USA | Posted: 1:36 PM on 05.27.05 |
->> oops, my bad!
sorry, I thought I had done a better job of editing for mistakes, thanks Thomas. I wasn't trying to mislead, just looking for information fast. |
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Nathan Simpson, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 05.27.05 |
->> I completely agree with Amir. if it will cost you time "money" to learn a new plat form don’t switch. Unless you really want to. But if you go to pc you will probably wonder why you didn’t switch earlier. I currently use both system on a daily basis and I have to say they both work. But, my 3 year old 2A graphics chip by Intel is noticeably faster than the g5 imac. When my buddy got his new top of the line dual g5 a few months ago we ran tests between my old $2200 pc and his $3800 Mac. yah he own and I had to buy him dinner, But not by very much. In every test my pc only trailed by a few seconds. We did things like interpolating 16bit 1ds files 1000% and it took along time for both machines. Then I used a new computer with 2 AMD 64 dual processor chips. WOW I pooped my pants. It was so fast. It was at least twice as fast as my machine.
Both OS platforms are very stable now. Windows xp, nt and Mac osx have had very few problems as far as crashing goes. When I used Mac os 9, it would crash on a daily basis, as did win me.
As to viruses any one want a Mac various. If you pay me. I can spend a week making one and send it to you. No computer is immune to various. It is just a little command file that tells the computer what to do. As far as it knows you are doing it. 3 years ago only 3% of the computers were Macs now I believe it is over 10%. So guess what with Macs ganging popularity viruses will follow. |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 3:54 PM on 05.27.05 |
->> I'm far from an expert but I believe for something to qualify as a virus it must be able to propagate independently and survive in the wild. What you described is not a virus, as I understand it, much like "Opener" was not.
I sound like a broken record, yes, but this stuff is important. I know a British fashion photographer who told me about the virus he and a friend got (presumably from each other, on Windows XP) that randomly sent out old emails and files from his laptop to everyone in his address book. His clients--editors and buyers--were receiving personal emails to his girlfriend, invoices to other clients, etc. etc., as was his friend. It was a complete disaster, though truthfully I can't tell you what $$ affect it had. But really, how do you recover from that?
I use my laptop for everything, I don't have a tower. When I'm on the road I feel very secure that OSX's Filevault will protect everything if the laptop is stolen (simply having your PC password protected is not enough).
I don't think Macs are for everyone--gamers, people who like searching for the meaning of some bizarrely named error message, etc.--but when even the PC magazines are raving about Mac it's time to give it a good look. |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 1:05 PM on 05.28.05 |
->> Greetings,
For those really interested in the continuing to explore the MAC/Windows security debate (and I mean REALLY interested) I suggest checking out http://www.securityawareness.blogspot.com - a site entitled "Security Awareness for Ma, Pa and the Corporate Clueless".
Winn Schwartau, a nationally known technology security expert from Semionle, FL, posted here that he was making the switch from Window to MAC because, in his opinion, Microsoft's Windows software and Intel processors are, "a threat to the national economic security of any organization or nation-state that relies up (sic) it."
His posts on this blogspot are following his 'transformation' - and there are hundreds of comments in a fiery debate about his posts.
NOTE - start at the bottom of the page and work your way up for things to make sense chronologically.
Cheers,
Mike Carlson |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:02 AM on 05.29.05 |
| ->> Nathan- Coincidentally it's midnight. So next Saturday at midnight email me your virus. I'll make you the only email in my address book and we'll see if you get a virus forwarded to you. |
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Sean Dillon, Photographer
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Ashburn | VA | USA | Posted: 8:01 AM on 05.29.05 |
->> It's no wonder this question never gets a definitive answer. While one person says "let's not fight" and another says "woah this can be a religious debate let's be careful"; all of a sudden we're in the middle of West Side Story mixed w/ The Crusades mixed w/ Pirates of Silicon Valley... :)
For what it's worth, I've been using both OS's for quite some time as well. I've been using Windows longer than Mac, but then I've probably used Linux a lot more than Windows (as an OS, not a photography platform). For the most part, the software on both platforms are the same. Windows doesn't have Final Cut/Pro but the Windows religious warriors out there would say there's other video software that's just as good or better. Although I'm using Windows, I think for video work OS X has probably got the win but I'm definitely not the authority on that subject.
I, too, had a similar dilemma as I had the need for a desktop at work; a laptop for travel and for on-the-go processing, etc; and I had the desktop for home for processing, printing, et al. In the end, I consolidated all of these and got a single laptop that's powerful enough for all my needs. In my case, I found a vendor willing to give me strong hardware components in an intel laptop.. the cost was high but the I'm VERY pleased w/ the result.
The reason I selected Windows over PC was because at the time, OS X just didn't have the responsiveness I enjoy on the PC. Benchmarking the long-long running transactions didn't make sense, as the amount of time I perform those compared to the amount of time I'm tooling through various apps is very small.
Originally, the G4 and earlier versions of the Powerbook and desktop were a bit underpowered. The OS in general just wasn't as responsive as I'd like. After using a dual G5 desktop, this clearly isn't an issue any more; that thing is uber-fast. My only caveat would be... the Powerbooks don't have G5's yet and if you're doing any on-site work or transmitting from the field, you'd be stuck w/ the G4. :/
I think you can argue till the cows come home about which platform is better and which is worse. Again... the Crusades come to mind. Dirk, I think what you need to do is test drive both interfaces and see which works for you. My recommendation would be to try to NOT straddle the fence, as using both systems day-in-day-out can be a pain in the neck. Get one system for everything, as consolidating from two desktops and a laptop down to one laptop for all my needs has been a real productivity enhancer.
Hope that helps, good luck w/ your decision. |
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Nathan Simpson, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Santa Barbara | CA | USA | Posted: 2:18 AM on 06.01.05 |
->> Thomas,
Sorry fore taking this off topic
You for got the pay me part; my time is better spent doing other things. And various are meant to spared now why would I send it to you if you are the only one that gets it.
Here is some info on Mac viruses though.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1706263,00.asp?kc=EWNKT0209KTX1K0100440
http://www.1st-in-antivirus.com/virus-protection-mac.htm
o and if there is no Mac viruses why does Norton make an anti various for Mac. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 2:59 AM on 06.01.05 |
| ->> Payment upon receipt. I could send you payment and never receive a virus and you could just say "oh well, I couldn't get it to work". You forgot the part about you being set up as the only person in the address book. That way we could have it auto forward back to you. Or for the sake of a controlled experiment we can pick an isolated email account like on Yahoo or something. Your call. |
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Dave Yoder, Photographer
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Milan | IT | Italy | Posted: 1:30 PM on 06.01.05 |
->> Still waiting for the Mac viruses Nathan, that article didn't reveal any. I can't understand the rest of your post.
AV software for mac is still valuable for cleaning Windows viruses out of attachments, so they will not be unknowingly forwarded to other Windows users. But, generally, anything Norton's sucks for Mac. |
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Julian Jenkins, Photographer
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Meridian | ID | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 06.05.05 |
| ->> "Can't we all just get along?" Rodney King |
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Monty Rand, Photographer
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Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 8:14 AM on 06.06.05 |
| ->> I like the fact the windows XP crashes all the time when running virtual PC on my MAC. It looks like Microsoft wanted to make sure us MAC users got the full windos experience. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:47 AM on 06.06.05 |
->> "I just upgraged my operating system and NOTHING WORKS! Please help me, I'M ON A DEADLINE!!!" -Anonymous Mac User
"I just upgraged my operating system and NOTHING WORKS! Please help me, I'M ON A DEADLINE!!!" -Anonymous PC User
Despite the differences, a few things are the same :) |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 10:43 AM on 06.06.05 |
->> "if there is no Mac viruses why does Norton make an anti various for Mac"
1) To make money
2) It's useful to get rid of Windows viruses so that you don't pass them on.
BTW. I prefer Virus X for the Mac. I've never been happy with Norton products built for OSX. |
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Monty Rand, Photographer
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Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 6:16 PM on 06.06.05 |
->> Since this post will close this thread unless someone opens up another, let me be the last to say....
BUY A MAC. |
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