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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
I got a degree to be a journalist, not a bill collector.
Chris Machian, Photographer, Assistant
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> It seems more and more new photographers do not have business sense. I will admit I had no idea how to invoice a client while in college. I also had no idea how to make sure a client pays on time. I think this also evident with the numerous threads of photogs giving rights to photos for access to an event.
I had enough common sense to turn rights for access down when it came to Rose Bowl when it was a National Championship game. I said you have to pay me or I don’t go. The publication went with an older professional who agreed to do it for access. I warned them they will get what they pay.
I was able to say “I told you so” later.
College professors are failing in part by not teaching that the above practices are not acceptable. Is clearly evident when there are threads of the teachers themselves giving up rights for access.
As photo editor for my college newspaper, I was the only person trying to teach the business side of photojournalism using all of my “lessons learned the hard way” as examples.
I am happy to say that the most of the photographers that I have mentored don’t make those mistakes often. I had recently trouble with a company who does visitor brochures for smaller cities chamber of commerce. I seem to spend more time fighting the good fight, instead of taking photos.
I have decided after a few more years of being in the business, I will go back and teach photojournalism. I will teach students to stand up for their rights, not give up rights for access, and how to invoice. All this along with F-stops and shutter speeds.
A lot of us talk the talk on this message board, but how many actually try to teach new photogs the ropes, guest lecture in classes, or talk to the young ones on the sideline and make sure they don’t set themselves up for a fall.
I guess in a perfect world, there would be a PR class out there that taught:
Don’t ever ask for a photographer to give up rights with out making it worth their while.
Don’t steal photos.
Don’t take advantage of young photographers by offering rights for access.
Anything else? |
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Amir Gamzu, Photographer
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Ann Arbor | MI | USA | Posted: 1:13 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> Chris,
at the local community college where I teach classes on photography, one of my biggest concerns is that we have no 'business of photo' class. There was one teacher who tried to make it happen, but there was just too much resistance from the admin. They said he couldn't do it as a photo class, so it would have to be a business class, etc. etc.
I don't know what else to write. Many things come to mind, like different solutions and other aspects of the problem. This is certainly as issue that many of us see as top priority. I'm short on time and have written like 4 paragraphs that I just deleted cause I need to let the ideas stew in my head before I respond more. |
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Jeff Baum, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Washington | DC | United States | Posted: 2:00 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> Chris,
Could you pass along the knowledge you have amassed on invoicing and collecting from clients?
Thanks,
Jeff |
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Jason Grow, Photographer
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Gloucester | MA | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> Andrew Buchanan, a board member on EP (www.editorialphoto.com) developed a terrific program called OutreachEP (http://www.editorialphoto.com/outreach/seminar.asp) with just such concerns in mind. Take a look and if you're interested in presenting such a program to schools in your area, there's a tremendous amount of information there to share. If you need more information on it, you can contact him directly at outreachep@editorialphoto.com
As you might expect, I wholeheartedly support Chris' intentions and would encourage everyone out there to proactively encourage good business practices not only for their own benefit, but for the benefit of everyone trying to make a living in this business.
jg |
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Michael Clark, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | USA | Posted: 4:44 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> To everyone on this site and everyone interested in learning about good business practices for professional photographers I can recommend three things that will help tremendously!
1) Join Editorial Photographers (http://www.editorialphoto.com) or at least check out all of the great free info there.
2) Buy ASMP's book "Professional Business Practices in Photography." This book covers all of the basics in terms of delivery memos, invoicing, paperwork and pretty much anything else you can imagine.
3) And most important to running a successful photography business and understanding how that works I would HIGHLY recommend Richard Weisgrau's latest book "The Real Business of Photography." It is so good I read it twice and it is the best book out there on this topic. It is the only book I have found that gives all of the nitty gritty details. I would say if you want to make a living in photography you owe it to yourself to read this book. Richard was the executive director of ASMP for 15 years.
In his book, Richard goes over what to do when clients are late with their payments or simply don't pay and how to deal with that.
Michael Clark |
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Chris Machian, Photographer, Assistant
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 5:35 PM on 01.17.05 |
->> I can't say it any better than Michael and Jason. I am not on EP, but it is on the to do list.
The fact my original post received 3 Huh?s strikes me as odd, Maybe people don't see this as a problem.
Jason is all over this board (and I thought I saw him in SI), he along with rick rickman are good sources of information.
Maybe Sportsshooter should publish a business guide in the future? |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 2:15 AM on 01.18.05 |
->> To add to Michael's suggestions:
4) Read all of Rick Rickman's columns here on SportShooter.
5) I write a montly column on business practices that appears first in News Photographer Magazine and one month later in The Digital Journalist.
http://www.digitaljournalist.org
http://www.loundy.org/commoncents/ (Column archives)
--Mark |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 8:17 AM on 01.18.05 |
->> My comments may seem harsh, but there are photo programs that do teach how to make photos and run a business. This is where programs like RIT which teach not just photojournalism, but photography have a business courses. Also, ASMP has designed a syllabus for teaching business courses.
What this post highlights is most of the photo programs I hear about do not teach students how to make a living. So, what value is it to have a four year degree and not a clue about how to make a living in this career unless you are hired as a staff photographer?
Also, very few of those who teach in the field have experience surviving as full-time freelancers.
The other dynamic from those who want to teach the courses was pointed out by Amir is the slow process of getting approval to teach new classes in academia. The world of academia is slower to change than almost any other part of our society. This has its good and bad points.
I believe this is a very competitive field and for someone to survive they will have to learn these skills in an environment where those who are shopping price will find someone willing to undercut you.
This is what also pushes photographers to do their very best possible work all the time. You will only make a decent living if you have a style which others would like to use.
While EP is a good organization ASMP is the best. Why? ASMP helps photographers legally by helping lobby and represent photographers in court cases. We need to support those organizations that are “doing” something to help us make a living.
Sports Shooter, NPPA and some other groups help educate, but they do not go to the newspapers to help negotiate better contracts with lawyers. Only ASMP has this reputation. Join ASMP so we all can pay the bills. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Santa Ana | CA | USA | Posted: 8:33 AM on 01.18.05 |
->> There is an excellent program coming up at the ASMP LA Chapter on January 27th in Culver City.
"Marketing, Pricing & Negotiating: ASMP/It's Your Business"
Details at www.asmpla.org and www.asmp.org/commerce/marketingpricing.php |
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Jason Grow, Photographer
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Gloucester | MA | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 01.18.05 |
->> Stanley Leary wrote: While EP is a good organization ASMP is the best. Why? ASMP helps photographers legally by helping lobby and represent photographers in court cases. We need to support those organizations that are “doing” something to help us make a living.
Best? Stan... don't do this babe... Each organization is going to have its strengths -- the reason ASMP can afford a legal defense fund is in part because it charges $300/year. EP is charging $50 and is run entirely by volunteers.
Additionally it was EP "doing something to help us make a living" that led to the groundbreaking change in the way both Business Week and Forbes structured their contracts and compensation to their contributors. And if I can be so impolitic as to suggest, it was the creation of EP that gave ASMP a much needed shove to get off it's lethargic butt and start reinvigorating itself... which mind you, it is doing quite well. The new generation of leadership in Eugene Mopsik, Susan Carr and the others is fantastic to see and prompted me to add my name to it's membership list...
EP, APA, ASMP are all going to function slightly differently from each other, but we will work best when we work together.
Jason Grow
EP Executive Board
EP, APA, ASMP |
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Thomas Oed, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 5:17 PM on 01.18.05 |
->> Amir, you might have your school contact San Diego City College...
If you check their catalog at http://www.sdcity.edu, you'll see that they DO offer a 'business of photography' class (Photo Business Operations), taught by the Photo department, not the Business dept.
I took that class last spring, and while it wasn't entirely comprehinsive, it was certainly better than nothing, and a good start. Basically taught me enough to know that I needed to learn more, and that's half the battle. I'd recommend the class to any of my So Cal bretheren....
-Thomas- |
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Brad Penner, Photographer
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Neptune | NJ | USA | Posted: 5:55 PM on 01.18.05 |
->> Stanley:
I went to RIT and was offered no such course. In fact, I didn't even KNOW that I should be on the lookout for such a course until I signed up here, two years after I graduated. We had photogs pissing their summers away with baseball teams for NO PAY, just for the access. I don't know why you decided to use RIT as an example, but bad example. All RIT taught me was how to use a studio, and 1999 digital photography. (Granted, it was 1999.) Very little about location lighting. Nothing about sports. (I'm sorry, we had a one week sports assignment/lesson in our PJ class, and that was it.) Nothing about business. Hell, they didn't even show me how to get, OR REQUIRE FOR GRADUATION, an internship, and I'm paying for it now as a second-class citizen at my paper. (I work for the weekly section, not for the regular daily, and I hate every second of it.) Freelancing on the side is all that's keeping me sane while still remaining within the photo industry. The professors are more interested in hearing themselves speak and showing their own work than helping young photojournalists improve their skills. I know that's a harsh generalization but the only professor (whose class I took) who I thought really wanted to make a difference for his students left the school shortly after I did... from what I hear (and I didn't hear this directly) he left for "philosophical differences."
Do I sound bitter? That's because I am.
Now they have the temerity to call me at home and ask for donations to the photo school. When I tell them what my job pays, they understand why I won't donate.
While a little off topic here, I guess my point is that Chris was right in his original. PJ schools (at least the one I went to) aren't necessarily teaching the business skills necessary to be a freelance photojournalist. I learned all of that the hard way, after giving them a buttload of tuition money.
-b. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 9:13 PM on 01.18.05 |
->> Jason:
Thanks for the post. Whenever someone says best--it usually is an opinion. I have been part of all of them and it is my opinion. ASMP has been doing this the longest. Gary Gladstone is one of the best and his activity in EP helped many more people.
Brad I referenced this because some of my friends who didn't take photojournalism at RIT did get some other courses in business. Sorry about your experience.
I am not an expert on who offers what today. But I do think most photojournalism programs are too focused on shooting and not enough on the bare minimum 1/2 of the other part of the job for any freelancer--business.
I still believe ASMP has done more for me in terms of business than the other groups. This is why I am a member.
ASMP also doesn't try and keep this a secret; we publish books trying to get everyone to understand the business practices which can help everyone earn a living. It isn't about charging more--it is about knowing the market, knowing what rights are and it’s about negotiating all this with your client so it is a win-win situation for everyone.
Again my comments are always my opinion—as most everyone else’s here. |
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Brad Penner, Photographer
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Neptune | NJ | USA | Posted: 12:31 PM on 01.19.05 |
->> Stanley:
Sure you can take business classes at RIT. Hell, you can take business classes at every college in the world. The entire point of this thread is business classes pertaining only to the business of photography being embedded in a PJ curriculum. How do "some of your friends," who took business classes at RIT without even going the PJ route, have anything to do with this discussion?? They don't, so stop wasting everyone's time with speculation and advice based on misinformation.
That was probably too harsh, but it's crap like this that have all but ended my desire to participate in the message boards anymore. Too many times, people just have no idea what they're talking about.
-b. |
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