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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
"YOU HAVE TO WONDER WHAT THEY WERE THINKING"
Curt Hinchman, Photographer
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Holbrook | NY | | Posted: 11:51 AM on 12.22.04 |
->> I really wish I knew what Nikon was thinking. You can’t tell me that they cannot see the trend that is happening in the photography profession. I think it’s pretty obvious, more and more people are thinking about or are making the switch to Canon. With this in mind you would think that Nikon would quickly try to jump in and either upgrade or improve a camera that consumers were having trouble with, but instead they did nothing about the d2h. Fine, if they want to stand behind their product I can understand that. I personally like the D2h. Next comes the introduction of the D2x. With a change in Sensor which almost seems like they are giving up on the LBCAST thingy and similarities close to the D2h, It is hard for photographers not to believe that this camera was meant to replace the d2h. OK maybe they decided to market the d2x as the one camera that can do it all. Now they drop the price on the D2h by $1200. So any chance of selling a one year old d2h for a good price to pay for Nikons Great new D2x is gone. Some my question here is what is Nikon thinking? Are they trying to just do away with the D2h and let those you bought it deal with it? Do they care about the increase in people switching to Canon? Are they more focused on the D70 line that they are trying to make that camera look more appealing? I realize that Nikon is an international company, but after watching their recent trend of decisions in the past few months it just makes me wonder. How are these decisions serving their best interest? The decisions are not made by one person either. I’m sure they have an entire staff made up of market researchers and Analysts who thought that this is the best thing for them to do. So what’s the plan? Where do I go from here? If you professional camera line is sinking please, please let me know, I would like to jump ship now before I drowned.
This is not a Nikon/Canon thread so please don’t make it one. So someone please give me a glimpse or their thought rational. Because if it’s money, I would like there’s a better way to make money they piss off your loyal customers. Thank you. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 12.22.04 |
->> So, you are saying you are upset because Nikon dropped the price of the D2H by $1200? And, that you are even more upset that they D2X is everything that photographers have been asking for, but is a different newer technology?
I think I can understand why that makes you mad... |
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Bruce Twitchell, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Lewiston | ID | USA | Posted: 1:05 PM on 12.22.04 |
| ->> Canon, I hope you are watching and reading all of these threads. If you want to keep photogrpahers happy, don't lower the price on old technology. For the love of God, don't lower the price on anything and make it more affordable; keep it expensive. Please learn form Nikon's mistake and keep everything expensive so we have to save for even longer to afford the cameras. In fact Canon, please raise the price on the old cameras so we can get more out of them when it comes time to resell them. Bring back the D60 and charge $5000 for it, bring back the 10D and charge $4500 for it (I have a 10D that I will need to resell at some point). Please, stop introducing new and better cameras and reasonable prices, I for one am sick of it. |
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Curt Hinchman, Photographer
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Holbrook | NY | | Posted: 1:29 PM on 12.22.04 |
| ->> That is not what I'm saying I understand the Lowering of prices over time and the introduction of new technology, but it seems as if one came right after the other. What is the goal here, to get new equipment out? To raise revenue? How have these choices they've made improved Nikon's Sales and reputation? |
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Damon Moritz, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Woodbridge | Va. | USA | Posted: 2:16 PM on 12.22.04 |
| ->> Their goal is probably to provide an affordable camera so that even more people will become Nikonians and buy their lenses, flashes and Coolwalkers. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 3:54 PM on 12.22.04 |
| ->> I do know one thing for sure - a camera's resale value is the ABSOLUTE LAST thing that concerns me when I'm considering a purchase. If I can't recoup my purchase within four months, I won't even consider it. If I can, then I'll be happy to throw it in the trash when I'm done abusing it. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 4:13 PM on 12.22.04 |
->> keep in mind it's not just Nikon's camera gear that's turning their own users off, but also NPS' failure to keep their professional clientel happy with their service.
case in point. my paper's photo editor sent four 17-35mm lenses in over the past couple of months to have either repairs or cleaning performed. one lens needed to be repaired and cost $421.00. three of the lenses just needed to be cleaned, but were in otherwise good working order. all three of those lenses came back with bills of $421.00 each. they had repairs done to them that were not authorized and one of them had to be sent back because the technician forgot to clean the lens. seems to me if you're going to spend $1,700 for a professional lens it should get more than two years of good use out of it before it needs serious repairs. "impact damage" seems to be a common word in an NPS technician's vocabulary...even if there's not a scratch on the camera/lens.
we're beginning to feel like NPS is becoming less of a professional service to its professional customers and more like a scam.
marc |
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Chris Doane, Photographer
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Saginaw | MI | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 12.22.04 |
| ->> Rob Galbraith and Fred Miranda called....they want their message board topics back. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer
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Troy | OH | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 12.22.04 |
->> I don't work for Nikon, but did sell Nikon consumer and professional products for many years. Personally, I am excited about the D2X and glad to see the D2H price lowered. My opinion is that Nikon knows that once the D2X hits the street, sales of the D2H will drop considerably. So, if they don't lower the price on the "H", they can expect to see a shelf full of "H"s getting mouldy. You have to sell every unit that you produce and you have to do whatever it takes to get that done. When you have to turn-over camera models as often as is necessary with pro digital Nikon and Canon are both doing a tremendous balancing act with selling off the "old" while still putting the latest technology into our hands frequently.
As for NPS, I get as frustrated as anyone with their service. As a Nikon user, I have no experience with Canon's pro service, so I can't make a comparison. I would like to see NPS do a better job with repairs.
Be greatful that both Nikon and Canon are willing to work with and for pro photographers and are not going the way of Minolta and Pentax where they put 90% of their efforts into consumer products. |
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Nuno Garuti, Photographer
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Lisbon | PT | Portugal | Posted: 6:14 PM on 12.22.04 |
->> Hey all,
As a Nikon user I have to agree with Curt, I mean the D2X in no D2H replacement so why doom the D2h when there is no replacement anounced, the price drop pretty much says that they are dumping the camera, also the aparent dumping of LBCAST,so why is Nikon giving up the pj/sports market? and if they are why aren't they honest about it? thats what I need to know in order to make a decision wether to stay with nikon or not! I've pretty much made that decision thanks to nikon's latest actions, and yes it makes me angry that they did it in this manner... the fact is nikon take forever to anounce something new and/or fix what is wrong with current cameras in market, and even longer to put it out in stores, and the fact is there are other brands out there that seem to keep up with times and technology, nikon unfortunately seems to have given up at least the pj/sports market... sad as it may be... |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 10:19 AM on 12.23.04 |
->> hum.. growing conspiracy...
nikon's slow decline out of pro market...
canon's dominance...
monopoly anyone?
No experience with NPS yet, but I have a feeling I need to soon... zoom ring feels a bit stiff.. |
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Jason Orth, Photographer
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Lincoln | NE | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 12.23.04 |
| ->> And just think how it could have been if Apple would have stuck with the Lisa.... |
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Chris Williams, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Rancho Cucamonga | CA | USA | Posted: 5:26 PM on 12.23.04 |
->> New D2H owner at the new price and quite happy :)
Chris |
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 7:05 PM on 12.23.04 |
->> Dave Amorde,
where's your house? I want to take out your trash.
-J |
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Nathan Abbott, Photographer
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Breckenridge | CO | United States | Posted: 7:37 PM on 12.24.04 |
| ->> I think the point is that Nikon is acccepting that they screwed up with their rollouts and if they don't want to lose people like Curt they should think about some sort of upgrade program for d2h owners who were lost in the Nikon digital shuffle. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 2:42 AM on 12.25.04 |
->> I've been a Nikon shooter for most of my life (yeah..life). When I worked at a camera store in Miami in my youth, I shot with a Canon F1 and Olympus OM1.
Guess what..they all worked.
I'm in the process of switching back to Canon. Here are three reasons:
1) Inability to keep pace with Canon. The inability to keep pace with Canon. The D2X will be a neat camera, it does tricks, but.. why would I play games. The Mark II gives me 8fps @ 8meg - and would allow me to shoot in the Metrodome without significant image quality issues.
Then there's the autofocus system. A good friend of mine who switched made a point of this. We both shoot NFL. I miss enough cause I'm old and gumming my food and all that, but...
2) NPS. I'm a NPS member and yet I've never used them. I've used someone who can and does repair Nikon Digital, but when I've posted his name, I've gotten phone calls from him pleading with me not to because Nikon gets upset. The AP just switched - not because of anything other than service. Can you say "RUT ROH"? Nikon's business model is screwed up . You can make money in service, but hosing the customer on a regular basis is gonna cost you.
3) Size of the two competitors. In business and in nature, big fish eat little fish. If the smaller fish is quicker and smarter, he can do just fine.
But does it look to you like Nikon is faster or smarter at this point? It doesn't to me - and that's based on 30+ years in business. Canon is a much bigger company and I think the fact they came from behind to catch up - and then pass Nikon in the digital race shows the difference resources can make.
I'm not advocating anyone switch. This is a personal decision. Canon has issues as well. But their willingness to have Customer Service People out in front on robgalbraith is a indication of how I think they approach the market.
They seem to have a plan in place and are executing the plan. If I wasn't working torwards more magazine work, the extra file size wouldn't make a difference probably.
The one thing I learned in business is that what it looks like may or may not be the actual game plan, but over time - things became obvious. Nikon's "top down" thinking may have served them well in the past, but Canon's "what can we do to help pros succeed" approach - which you see most clearly in their customer service model, was, ultimately the thing that made my mind up. (And my wife isn't happy about it, either).
To answer Curt's question, what they are thinking appears to be "We're Nikon. Buy our products. Accept our service. We'll let you know when we've got something you'd be interested in."
It's no more difficult than that.
BTW, I don't fault them for the price drop, although it did cost me $1000. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:12 AM on 12.25.04 |
->> Let's see, they may have refoucused their energy into the CMOS and not the LBCAST sensor for whatever technical reasons on quality and or reliability and are dropping prices on products as they bring new products/technology to market? They should stick with what may have been a bad decision and just to make us feel good? ( No Thanks.)
I own Nikon products including the D2H and I use them everyday. I have had none of the issues posted on other threads, thank goodness and I am probably going to buy another D2H and take advantage of the price drop.(Thinking about the D2X). A Nikon Tech told me when equipment is sent in for repair they are to bring it up to Nikon specifications, Marc posted that Nikon made unauthorized repairs, this could be the reason, but they should have told you prior. You should also look into the care your shooters are putting into the equipment assigned to them. I would think if a study was done into those shooters who purchased their own equipment vs those that have equipment assigned to them by the publication that the equipment lasts longer and has less repairs from the group that actually pays for the equipment /repairs themselves. I have been covering games and seen shooters drop their cameras or lenses from several inches to feet off the ground and not think twice. You know those guys just turn it in and have the publication get it repaired.
Everone have a Happy Holiday. |
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Baron Sekiya, Photographer
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Kailua-Kona | HI | USA | Posted: 4:21 AM on 12.25.04 |
->> I know at one time Canon's repair center in Hawaii had a manager running it that everyone loved. The staff raved about him, photographers raved about him. He later was promoted and became the head of Canon worldwide service back in Japan.
When I had a problem in the 80s with some Canon service in Hawaii I wrote to New York and Japan to complain, he wrote me a letter from Japan and explained that as manager of the Hawaii service center he strived to see that it was the best center in all of Canon.
I was told later he called the repairman and manager I had problems with in Hawaii at the time to chew them out for the bad service I got and had me send my gear to California to be serviced properly at no charge. The repair guy was later sent back to Japan and replaced with someone else.
I see no reason to doubt that this excellent head of worldwide services didn't continue this traditon of excellence into his position in Japan from his days in Hawaii. I still have his letter buried somewhere in my papers. I have no idea if he's still around.
As for Nikon, I enjoy the one-upmanship Nikon and Canon have with one another, it keeps each on the bleeding edge. |
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DJ Werner, Photographer
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Beaufort | NC | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 12.25.04 |
->> Dave,
"If I can't recoup my purchase within four months, I won't even consider it. "
this is a very interesting point....I had not looked at a purchase this way....
can you please tell me more on how you do the math on this...I'd like to apply this to my upcoming purchases.
why 4 months? and how would I figure this out? what formular or equation are you using?
I guess this goes to camera life cycle? life span?
and how much wear and tear?
at what point does one replace vs repair?
I am heading for some backwoods shooting in 2005 and I don't need anything to fail on me in the wilds...
I like your model- I prefer to replace than repair at times.
I still shoot a good deal on older film bodies-also med format-
my digital frame rate runs about:
150 frames per day - 3 days a week-
and 2 days a month about 800 to 1000 frames.
that nature/wildlife project in 2005 will probably run 500 to 1200 a day? over the course of 3 months or so.
and 300 rolls of 36 exp chromes-
Thanks Dave, I am interested to hear how I can apply this to future purchases--both film and digial bodies.
DJ |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Tucson | AZ | USA | Posted: 5:51 PM on 12.25.04 |
->> When I bought my frist Nikon (an F body, 1965 model), I thought I really had something and I did too. After all, how many cameras can shoot images and can double to help hang dry wall too? Not many.
All joking aside, our newspaper has purchased several D2H bodies since their introduction and everyone has been very pleased with the performance, especially the much improved batteries.
I use my own Canon gear, because I love Canon. But I have watched the rest of the staff use the D2H bodies and everyone has been very happy and thankful for the new cameras and the upgrades and improvements.
When I shared with everyone at our office the annoucement Nikon was dropping the price on the D2H, staffers thought about the additional cameras that could have been purchased with the difference, but nobody scared up a mess over how Nikon was failing to provide a good product or failing to make marked improvements.
Everyone at our paper has been happy, because when you think about it, we had D1 and D1H bodies that were at NPS so many times we could have bought a number of new cameras for what we paid for repairs.
I'm using an EOS 1D body (after trying a 20D and not really liking it for sports) and the 1D is still an excellent camera for newspaper work. I have no complaints.
The D2H is an excellent improvement over the D1 and D1H. Use it, enjoy it, buy another at $1,995 and be thankful the prices have come down. |
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Henry Hsu, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 11:31 AM on 12.26.04 |
| ->> What will really piss me off now is if Nikon abandons the DX size sensors. I have two DX lenses and love them. I do not want to see my 1.5 crop go away too. |
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Bastian Ehl, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Stendal | SA | Germany | Posted: 12:04 PM on 12.26.04 |
| ->> Henry, not in the next 2 years. The D2x has the DX-size sensor. And pro cameras are released every 2-4 years. I don't think this will dramatically change during the next years. Even current cameras are already more computer than a camera. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 6:41 AM on 12.27.04 |
| ->> I know what you mean Henry, I thought I would not buy a DX lens as I did not want to get stuck if they ever went away from the DX size sensors, but I bought the Nikon AF-s DX 17-55 2.8 and I love this lens. As much as I would want a full frame sensor, I hope they stay with the DX sensor as they have with the F-mount. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 12.27.04 |
->> DJ,
my amortization numbers, which I created based on the needs of my youth sports market, were designed to do two things:
1) Make sure each piece of equipment returns its investment fully.
2) Keep me from unneccesarily chasing technology.
I make several assumptions:
A) Digital camera bodies have a useful life of no more than two years. I may get three, but that third year is a gift.
B) I need a minimum of three bodies to always be covered. Two bodies with me at any event, while the third is away being serviced.
C) I assume that each body will need some form of service every 50,000 actuations. "In season," the primary body gets between 10K - 15K actuations per week. The D2H's have proven much more reliable, so perhaps I should rethink this number.
Bottom line: Three D2H's at their original price of $3000 demanded that I generate $9000 in income within four months to justify the expense. While this isn't a problem now, it was something I had to think hard about when starting my business.
My formula for digital processing equipment - computers, software, etc. - is pretty much the same, with similar assumptions.
Other equipment like lenses, strobes, backgrounds, etc., that have longer lives I deal with differently. But again, I have a timeline for every piece paying for itself. Most of this type of equipment I'll give a year to pay for itself, even if I expect it to last ten years.
My math is intended to keep my "equipment envy" in check as much as anything else, and is necessarily conservative. "Your mileage may vary." |
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DJ Werner, Photographer
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Beaufort | NC | USA | Posted: 10:49 PM on 12.27.04 |
->> Dave,
Thanks Dave- that is some very interesting insight into the digital world
I think it is hard for some of us boomers to get it in our heads that a digital body has such a short life span-
so much money for so little time..$3000.for 2 years....for some reason when it comes to spending that much cash I have flashbacks to oil embargo's and those long gas lines...if I spend 3000 on a vehicle I expect to get more than 2 years out of it- old fashion mindset and growing up in a difficult economy I guess?
so I admit it is difficult for me to comprehend sometimes, these short life spans...especially when I pull out an old argflex 35mm from the 50's and shoot with it...heck the camera is older than me- but I love that you can take the prisim off and shoot it at waist level and be inconspicuous....it's great for street work.
those older film bodies are workhorses- that last and last...
that short shelf life of a computerized body can really throw a moneky wrench into the best laid business plans or project cost estimates if you don't think it through -what with all the service needs and backup equipment one must have to remain competive in this field..
I agree with you and err on the side of a 2 year shelf life when doing project cost estimates- and figuring wear and tear....
I am even a bit hesitant to consider a body as a reliable back up in the 3rd year...
it's kind of like driving around with a old, bald tire as your spare- you know it's there- but will it have air in it when you need it?
thanks again- time to hit the drawing board and rethink some of those upcoming project costs..
DJ |
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Mark D Murphy, Photographer
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Blue Point | NY | USA | Posted: 9:38 PM on 12.30.04 |
->> Dave A. & D.J.
Bought my second D2H Body late October for 3199. Now with the price drop I will sell my back up D70 and buy a 3rd D2H. As a "boomer" with 40 yrs of shooting, the longeivity of digital tech is amusing and costly. Shoot mostly uncompressed raw files, work them over in Capture, make JPEPS (or TIFFS) Currently have more invested in camera and photo-tech than my first house cost.
Held out going completly digital until 2002 by staying up late and scanning chromes & negatives. Now the F5 and F100 and the medium format are lonely occupants of a Pelican box.
This is about getting the shots, not the techno drivel that becomes so oppressive. Recently a photo editor client who wanted to know how I got a 40mb file from a shot. I used to submit medium format chromes to him all the time. I gave my art director a 6mb raw file from the D2H and she blew it up and played with it and now its a national ad. He thinks its from medium format. (Not some 4 mp cheapie file)
For maritime photos I have some old Pentax film bodies, tamron and sigma lenses, they have hundreds of days at sea on them. If they got washed overboard I would be done crying in about 2 minutes. This pile of cheap stuff has produced sales literature and national ads for a marine account for years. (Lots of intervention by my gifted art director, Kelley)
Somewhere up in the garage is a complete medium format darkroom and a 4x5 Speed Graphic (of your Argflex vintage, DJ.) Next job: photo museum curator. Look out for tax deductable donations.
Get the shots, be prepared to have the tools wash overboard and move on.
Try not to overanalyze Nikon (or Canon) corporate moves, if they cant figure it out how can you? They just make tools, its not a religion,it just tools, like Snap On and Mac Tools, they are content in the same box.
MM |
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Devin Dahlgren, Photographer
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Everett | WA | USA | Posted: 3:26 AM on 01.02.05 |
->> Mark,
You are my hero!
Devin |
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