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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
"I'd like to buy your photo and put it in my portfolio"
Gregg Riess, Photographer
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Overland Park | KS | USA | Posted: 3:39 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> I received word from a peer that someone was looking for Freedy Adu images (Freddy is the 15-year-old soccer player for DC United) via SportsShooter Classified Ads.
I emailed the guy that placed the ad, and explained that I have shots of Adu from his recent game in Kansas City which were taken for editorial purposes with credentials from a local paper. I asked his intended use.
His comments blew me away:
"As a digital photographer myself, it would be placed into my collection of digital images and it would serve as if I shot it myself. I failed to take the time to shoot FREDDY during the MLS training camp and I now would like to have an image. I could choose not to tell the truth but I am honest. I would like to have a photo this year in my collection and I would be willing to purchase the digital image if the price is right or trade you an image of equal value that you might like..."
I, like most of us, thought for sure this was a joke - right? He couldn't be serious, could he? Am I on Candid Camera or some strange reality show?
I replied to his note, asking if this was some kind of a joke. His reply:
"No...Why, would you think it is a joke? I am new to this site and I have purchased images with full rights in the past."
I can't even begin to grasp how someone could think about buying an image from another photographer and then placing it on their site to "serve as if I shot it myself." This is the second grossly unethical behavior that I've witnessed from a "fellow" photographer in the 5 days and it makes me sick to my stomach.
I felt that I needed to post this, and one of my colleagues agreed. I hope that the minority of readers that don't understand the issue you will be enlightened as to what is inappropriate, and others will be simply reminded that there are people out there in our industry that lack an ethical foundation. |
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
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Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 3:46 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> He is new to "this site"....meaning sport shooter? Is that the ad from the ss.com classified section? |
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Gregg Riess, Photographer
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Overland Park | KS | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Rick, Yes. |
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
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Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 3:53 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> That is very unenthical in my book as well and it takes some big brass one's to try to get another photographer to sell you an image for your portfolio.
I would think that at the very least the ad needs to be taken down by the administrators. Then they need to decide what should be done to prevent this situation from reoccurring in the future. |
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Tony Biscaia, Photographer
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Norfolk | MA | USA | Posted: 4:00 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Makes you wonder if ANY of the photos in his profile were actually taken by him, or bought... hmmm |
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Jerome Davis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 4:02 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> My thought for debate:
Wouldn't it be the same as if you sold your picture, rights included (if the price is right)? It happens a lot in music. People buy others' songs and music written by others and they just put thier name on it. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer
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Somerville | NJ | USA | Posted: 4:07 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> This is outrageous and unconscionable behaviour for anyone calling themself a professional photographer and a member of this site.
Disgusting.
Makes you question the whole validity of the member's page.
Gregg, I trust you kept copies of the correspondence on record?
Ridiculous.
That takes a lot of cojones, to say the least... :( |
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Gregg Riess, Photographer
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Overland Park | KS | USA | Posted: 4:07 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> I reviewed his SportShooter portfolio, as well as his portfolio web site, and it doesn't take a great detective to see which images are his and which images are actually from a more capable source (i.e. another photographer).
He even offered to trade my Freddy Adu image for one of "his" images. That particular image, which he sent as a thumbnail to me, appears to be a MLB player photographed inside a stadium from a credentialed location. I wonder if that's his image, taken with credentials, that he's trying to trade----or, it's another photographer's image. |
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David Boily, Photographer
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Ville St-Laurent | QC | Canada | Posted: 4:09 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> This person should be banned from SS. |
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
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Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Jerome when someone records someone else's song and puts their name to it they are doing so with the actual audio recording. The songwriter still maintains his credit and copyright.
Michael Jackson owns the rights to a large part of the Beatles songs but they are still Lennon/McCartney compilations (for the most part) and the songwrting credit hasn't been changed to Michael Jackson. Because he owns the songs rights he collects the royalties when a company like Nike uses "Revolution" in their ad campaign or a radio station reports plays on that song or when another artist records the song.
Now, would you feel comfortable selling one of your photos to someone to use as their own in their portfolio? |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> I'm still trying to come up with the appropriate words...to express my dismay/surprise/humour/shock.
This is funny in a sad, sick way. I'm sure I'd like to hear the other side of the story...it would be interesting to hear how somebody could try to justify this as "ethical".
Brings new meaning to the word "professional". |
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Bill Taylor, Photographer
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Westerville | OH | USA | Posted: 4:24 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Just to add to my post on the other sad thread, this would be a level 2 stupid act, punishable by having to shoot with 110 film and the camera that comes with some barbie dolls the rest of his life. |
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Conor O'Healy, Photographer
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Tualatin | OR | USA | Posted: 4:40 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> This honestly doesn't suprise me too much, although it really should.
Back when I was a student, just sending out a few portfolios, here and there, a friend of mine who was also a photographer (not a SS member), offered to let me put his photos in my portfolio.
His reasoning was that he felt that I could have taken the same shots had I been there that day, and that sports photography was all a matter of luck anyways.
Ofcourse, I declined his "generosity" and told him I wanted to have *my* photos seen, and be hired based on *my* merit, not his. I honestly don't know if he ever got my point, but atleast I know that I did the right thing.
Unfortunatly, even if this member is kicked off of SS, he will probably still misrepresent images he purchased as his own to other people, or when he applies for jobs. What really needs to happen is to have this person be confronted, and educated as to professionaly ethics. And then kicked off of sports shooter.
Conor |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> He might be on to something... Hey Frakes, can I uh, buy some photos? |
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James Welch, Photographer
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Tampa | FL | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> To clear this up, I basically made a mistake. I have dealt with numerous athletes, agents and media relations departments that have requested everything from the image for their use and their ownership, to responding to a thread yesterday regarding ANTHONY ANDERSON.
I joined this group because so I may become a better business man and become more savy with my photos. I have no agency nor friends who sell my images. I do not have a paper who supplies me with equipment. I have purchased each and every camera piece I have on my own with hardly any income from the photography business. I am sure some of the comedians will joke that there is a reason that I have not made any money in photography but I will let them have their laugh.
I enjoyed photography and I was advised that I should join this group of sports photographers.
If I made a mistake, it is only because I have had numerous others do the same practice to me and thought it was acceptable. This is certainly not an excuse and I raise my hand if I made a mistake.
Regarding Gregg, I took each and every photo and NO, I did not want to claim GREGG's photo as my own and never said I would, I just wanted a photo of ADU in case I never have the chance to photograph him.
I am not perfect and I am new to the "BUSINESS" side of photography. I simply enjoy taking photos and I still consider it fun.
If Sport Shooter chooses to punish me for my ignorance, I can accept that but my photos are mine and worthy of this site.
Thank you! |
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John Kavouris, Photographer
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Bartlett | IL | US | Posted: 4:57 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Wow.
He is one of those people who thinks shooting big name players will make him a good photographer.
I like Witte's idea... let's all swap photos! |
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James Welch, Photographer
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Tampa | FL | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Gregg was incorrect, I did NOT want to claim his image.
Just enjoy the laugh and I hope no one ever has to deal with the types that I have.
Thanks! |
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Gregg Riess, Photographer
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Overland Park | KS | USA | Posted: 5:01 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> I want to reiterate the quote, in case it was lost as folks scanned the previous posts in this thread. I have the following statement in an email from this gentleman: "it would be placed into my collection of digital images and it would serve as if I shot it myself" |
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Liane Rebeka Gersich, Photographer
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Naperville | IL | USA | Posted: 5:03 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Ahhh haaa, then who is Cliff Welch? Your copyrights have the wrong name on them. |
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Gary Lake, Photographer
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Morgantown | WV | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> I can't imagine why any photographer would want to build a portfolio that included any image that wasn't their own work. There's a huge difference between building a collection and building a portfolio. |
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Conor O'Healy, Photographer
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Tualatin | OR | USA | Posted: 5:06 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Wow, he's gone already, that was quick.
Liane, I noticed the same thing, and was going ask about that as well.
Conor |
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> I think Mr. Welch has just left the building. |
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Jerome Davis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> So that what that Icon means. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 5:08 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Hey no fair. Greg and I still have his inappropriate votes. |
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Jim Iseri, Photographer
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Seal Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Darn it, I wanted to sell him an image I just took of sports on my TV screen. :) |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> yep....he's gone.
hope he learned his lesson.
marc |
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:11 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Return phasers to the "stun" setting. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 5:13 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> did we just witness democracy in action?
marc |
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Ramin Rahimian, Photographer
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San Rafael | CA | USA | Posted: 5:17 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> very weird...i can't even view his images....his name is not linked to a member site....and i remember his page as specifically always being impossible to view...whats going on? |
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Gregg Riess, Photographer
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Rick Burnham, Photographer
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Enfield | CT | USA | Posted: 5:30 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Ramin
It appears he got the boot, like Elvis he left the building. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 5:30 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> hey. cliff was listed in the 1991-1992 Who's Who in Photography! now he's listed in the 2004 Who Not in Sportsshooter.com (:
seems buildings and other inanimate objects qualify as portraits these days.
marc |
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Liane Rebeka Gersich, Photographer
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Naperville | IL | USA | Posted: 5:43 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Wow, big brother is really watching. A+ for speed! |
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Mike Lewis, Photographer
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Dothan | AL | USA | Posted: 6:00 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> woah his page is down now. |
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Conor O'Healy, Photographer
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Tualatin | OR | USA | Posted: 6:12 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Now my question is, how do you price an image you are selling to have put in another photographer's portfolio? For some reason, I don't think photo quote has an option for that.
Do you price it based on the size of the publication that the "photographer" is going to submit to? Do you license it per portfolio that he sends out?
I guess I must not be that good of a photographer, because no-one is asking to use my images in their portfolio.
And yes, just incase it is not obvious, this is only a joke.
Conor |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:14 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Let's take it easy on the guy...he obviously made a mistake, and I believe his removal from SS.com was appropriate enough action. His credibility has been called into question and that is harsh enough. No need to insult him and demolish his self-esteem.
Hopefully, he has learned his lesson, and that others will also learn from this incident. |
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Alexei Agaryshev, Photographer
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Nic Hume, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Victoria | BC | Canada | Posted: 6:22 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> I'll second Nick's call here.
Yes, the guy ****'d up. Badly. He did something completely innappropriate and unprofessional. Having a whole bunch of us simply bash him for the hell of it is *NOT* constructive at all.
I agree with 90% of what's being said in this message-board thread, however, I don't really see the need for all 3000 or so ss.com members to reiterate exactly the same thing in their own words.
Agreed, the guy was a schmuck. He's gone now. Let's drop it already.
Just my $0.02
--Nic |
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Liane Rebeka Gersich, Photographer
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Naperville | IL | USA | Posted: 6:23 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> If he's Cliff, who's James? I'm very confused.??? |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Ontario | CA | USA | Posted: 6:28 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> The Balls on this guy, and to reply on this thread with a tone as if to justify his actions and business practices.
How does he represent the work in interviews? He obviously is not stating these were taking by other shooters and so on, so he knows whats up. |
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Steve Puppe, Photographer
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Mission | KS | USA | Posted: 6:38 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> LOL, Gregg I told you the post would get a reaction. |
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Moose Peterson, Photographer
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Mammoth Lakes | CA | USA | Posted: 7:04 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> Not to make lite of this, but at least he paid for the images! It gets old, seeing my photos on publication pages that have been stolen from me and resold to publications with the theif's name getting credit (not very smart people). It's happened a half a dozen times now. It's such a fun phone call to the publication's editor. |
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Jason Jenkins, Photographer
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Las Vegas | NV | USA | Posted: 7:09 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> He proclaims to be honest and is with Gregg. But an honest deed that he wanted to follow up with a lie. /shrug |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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New England | | USA | Posted: 7:39 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> Hmmmmm, let's see, Witte has a nice shot of Dave Mattews I'd like. My concert work is lacking.
I'm pretty sure that Al Bello, Bill Frakes, Rod Mar and Vince Laforet all have some shots I wouldn't mind using in my book......and of course let's not leave out Moose's wildlife images, and Neil Turner's portraits.....hmmmm
Nah, I'd rather just practice, and keep shooting. |
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Shelly Castellano, Photographer, Assistant
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Huntington Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> according to his website it seems like he has been around awhile and should know better! un-f****ing believable!!!! |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 8:14 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> "...it would be placed into my collection of digital images and it would serve as if I shot it myself."
"I could choose not to tell the truth but I am honest."
----------
Well, at least he's honest about dishonest. Of course, he could be lying, perhaps being dishonest about being honest, or he could even be an honest guy being dishonest about being dishonest, only he's truthfully lying.
Is it any wonder that young people have a hard time telling the difference these days? I'm a bit confused myself. Maybe I've been going about things the wrong way. |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 8:19 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> damn doug, now you've got me confused too! (:
marc |
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Andrew Sullivan, Photographer
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Kissimmee | FL | USA | Posted: 8:31 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> I had just seen him as a new user a little while ago... I even sent him a little "Welcome to our community, nice pictures!" e-mail. Hate to lose a Florida shooter, but man, sometimes ya gotta go! Thing is, I might bump into him tomorrow at Bucs camp, he'll be the grumpy one in Fun Pix tomorrow night. |
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Carlos Salcedo, Photographer
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Gilbert | AZ | US | Posted: 9:03 PM on 07.30.04 |
->> This practice is not that uncommon...I went to school with a photographer that asked a fellow co-worker of mine if he could "borrow" some of his outtakes for his portfolio since he was trying to get a job with a local newspaper.
Of course the photographer told him to "pound sand" and I never found out what happened after that.
Years later, while I was working for a paper in Phoenix I saw his portfolio on the photo editor's desk since we had a position open and low-n-behold, I saw images in the book that could have never been taken by him since I was at those events and he was not. I had the same exact frame from three-feet to the right so I know if he would have been there. Too bad I could not get a hold of the shooter that was there to let him know, but I got the feeling that he probably already knew. |
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Anthony Soufflé, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Collinsville | IL | USA | Posted: 9:05 PM on 07.30.04 |
| ->> LOL! Witte & G.J. McCarthy need a freak'n TV show! |
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