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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Low-Light Sports With a D60
Rebecca Blackwell, Photographer
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Princeton | NJ | USA | Posted: 2:47 AM on 02.03.03 |
->> Shooting basketball in cave-like high school gyms with a D60 and an EX420 on camera has been giving me some dodgy results. Often the autofocus (on Servo) doesn't lock onto the right player. Even when there are only two players, dead center, same depth, the autofocus will frequently lock onto the background instead. This happens in hockey as well, where the focus will be on the boards, the crowd behind the glass, or a ref or player in a rear corner of the shot. I'm very careful to press the shutter button halfway first to give the focus a chance to get there, but that doesn't seem to be any guarantee.
Another difficulty is that when I'm following a player with Servo, the player often outruns it! When players are running or skating toward me, the front player will never be in focus, but someone a few feet behind will be.
I'm getting enough useable shots, but my percentage of sharp, in-focus shots is significantly lower than usual. And it is just so frustrating to get what would be a great shot of one of the game's key moments and then find that the focus is actually on the crowd or a ref in the back corner of the frame.
In addition to the slow focusing, I'm fighting with a slow flash sync speed (1/200) in basketball. If I shoot at 1/200, some of the shots won't be sharp. If I shoot at 1/250 or more, the shots are sometimes underexposed and the recycle time is very slow.
Buying a 1D or a lighting kit isn't really an option (though I will be getting an EX550 soon), so I was hoping some of you more experienced shooters could give me some advice for improving my percentage of successful shots with this set up. I'm sure someone will point out that getting good shots has more to do with the photographer than the equipment, and I'm willing to accept that I'm as much to blame as my equipment. But that still leaves me with the same question: how can I improve my shooting within these limitations?
Thanks in advance for any advice. |
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Preston Mack, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 10:32 AM on 02.03.03 |
| ->> D60 is a poor sports camera. Slow focus, slow fps rate. Maybe you can pre-focus some shots, and wait for the action to hit that spot? |
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Ben Liu, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Union City | CA | USA | Posted: 11:44 AM on 02.03.03 |
| ->> I dont have a d60... however I do use the D100, which is a very similar camera. I've solved some of the focusing problems by custom setting the back button to focus and the shutter to fire only. Hope this helps you. |
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Tim Williams, Photographer
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Evansville | IN | USA | Posted: 12:00 PM on 02.03.03 |
->> The D60 and D30 have the same fps rate (~3) and same autofocus system. The biggest difference is the ISO mode of the D60 only goes to 1000. But an underexposed (1/2 stop) ISO 1000 may be as good as a D30 at ISO 1600 - dunno... only have a D30 here
The only camera with a better frame rate is the 1D, right? I believe even the 1Ds is 3 fps.
What I learned shooting basketball in caves:
(1) learn to manually focus (actually, even if there is plenty of light) - its like riding a bike... you will get scraped up for a while, but it is smooth sailing soon.
(2) unless the light is very uneven, set your camera in manual mode and learn what you can live with (fixing in Photoshop I mean)
There is a high school here with the GREENEST, dimmest flourescent lights I have EVER seen. I shoot 160/2.8 (it meters 100/125!) in there and get a few shots per game (usually when tracking a player) after I do some 'shoppin on it
The 70-200 with the ~1.5 FOV multiplier effect is a very good "all purpose basketball lens" and is easy to manually focus. I swear, you can get the hang of it (if you have two hands, of course!). |
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Robert G. Stevens, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 12:01 PM on 02.03.03 |
->> Rebecca:
For basketball, put a fast prime lens on it like the 85mm f1.8 and just focus manually. It is really not that hard to manual focus a faster lens. With its limited depth of field it is very obvious when you have it in focus. A faster prime lens may also give you more keepers in shots where you decide to use AF. A faster lens puts more light on the AF sensors and can speed up AF a bit.
The other option is to manually focus the camera on the net and wait for the action to come to the net. Using two cameras, I will sometimes do that. One camera will have a short tele, focused on the net. With the other camera, I use a longer tele and as the action gets close to the net, I pick up the other camera and shoot the net.
Here is one of my shots from my first try at basketball four or five yeaers ago. It was shot with a 50mm, pre-focused on the net.
http://robsteve.com/images/SportsShooter/western-42-ss.jpg
It actually looks better cropped. I now tend to shoot from a little closer to the corner and use a short telephoto.
http://robsteve.com/images/SportsShooter/western-42crop-ss.jpg
Here is a manually focused shot from a tournament last winter. It was shot at 180mm and I think F4. I was using strobes in this case.
http://robsteve.com/images/SportsShooter/CIS2002-6-ss.jpg
As for the problems you are having with servo focus, an EOS 1d will be much better, but is still not up to the task for fast hockey and a long lens up close. I don't have the specs in front of me, but I think the Servo will track a 300mm f2.8 to about 12meters and 30(kph-mph?). A 400mm f2.8 lens would be even harder than the 300mm to focus track. In my experience with a 400mm f2.8 lens, a hockey player is going too fast and is too close once they get past the blue line when you are shooting from the end of the ice. At the closer distances, the focus is much more critical and the AF has to move the lens elements a further distance and more quickly than is possible.
Here is an example of a manually focused shot done with a 400mm f2.8. It was shot through the glass at the end and is pretty well full frame. I found at this distance and a bit further out, the AF systems are not up to task.
http://robsteve.com/images/SportsShooter/RuutuHit.jpg
In regards to you problems with flash, I have always been of the opinion that if you can't light the whole palying surface with flash, don't use it. In ice hockey, it will be very obvious. The player will be well exposed and color balance, but as the light falls off in the background and the arena lighting takes over, the ice will get greener and greener. This is pretty well impossible to correct in photoshop because of the falloff in lighting in the background makes it hard to get the green out evenly.
You are probably better off shooting at a higher ISO on your D60, rather than using an on camera strobe. Some higher ISO files can look awful when compared to lower ISO file, but a sharp grainey picture always looks better than a blurred low ISO shot.
I notice a lot of SportsShooter members posting blurred or out of focus basketball shots on their pages. When Larry Smith posted an update yesterday, I thought "Finally some sharp, well done basketball shots." Maybe Larry will contribute to this thread and tell us how he does it to get such consistent results.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=384 |
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Baron Sekiya, Photographer
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Kailua-Kona | HI | USA | Posted: 12:51 PM on 02.03.03 |
->> I use a D30 to shoot in dungeons for basketball and my advice is:
1. Turn auto focus off, you just have to manual focus it
2. Use a generic flash, I know the D30 on ETTL just doesn't judge exposure correctly unless you use pre-flash (impossible in basketball). I use my old Sunpak 444D.
3. If you shoot at ISO400 the background should be dark enough to not look too off colored. Or you could put a Stofen green diffuser on the flash, then dial-in fluorescent white balance on the camera to balance it all out, but flash output gets really low doing that. |
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Clark Brooks, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 4:10 PM on 02.03.03 |
->> Rebecca:
Former D30 owner here. Switch to manual focus. Like others mentioned you'll get the hand of it pretty good in no time. Besides, you won't be wasting any film.
Don't use the 420EX Flash either. Get your self a used 45CT3 (2 would be better) on ebay, a load of rechargeable batteries, a remote firing system like pocket wiz or the wein infrared and a bogen super clamp or two.
You should be able to shoot at F4 at 1/200th if you place the strobes at the top of the bleachers facing the top of the key or the lights to shoot for your taste and have fun.
You'll be much happier with your results.
Good luck! |
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Rebecca Blackwell, Photographer
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Princeton | NJ | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 02.05.03 |
->> Thanks for all the great advice. It sounds like manual focus is the key. I found the prospect a bit daunting given the speed of the game and the quality of my eyesight, but practice should help.
Preston and Ben - I do pre-focus some shots, especially at the basket, but unless I turn AF off, the focus doesn't always stay there. Shifting the focus to the back button could definitely help.
Tim, It's encouraging to hear that the 70-200 is a good lens for manual focusing. Do you use the zoom and focus simultaneously? Do you control them both and support the lens all with the same hand? That could take some serious practice. I do indeed have two hands, but one of them needs to be on the body to press the shutter.
Robert, your suggestion to use a faster prime lens sounds like a good one. A brighter view would make it easier to focus manually, and if it could speed up the AF, that would be great too. Thanks also for all the examples and technical info. That kind of detail is really helpful. I would prefer to shoot ambient light if possible, but a few of the gyms are really dim. One that I shoot in regularly meters at 90/2.8 at ISO 1000, the fastest ISO available on the D60. I haven't used flash to light hockey, since the rinks are well enough lit to get fast shutter speeds with the lens wide open.
Your comments about AF following hockey players were interesting. I didn't realize that that type of motion and speed was difficult for a 1D w/long glass also.
Baron and Clark - My non-dedicated flash is a Vivitar 285. I'm not quite sure about its compatibility with the D60, but it sounds like a manual flash would produce better results than the E-TTL is doing. On the other hand, once I have a 550, I could use that on-camera and have it trigger the 420 as a slave. With a lighting set-up like that, where do you think would be the best place to locate the 420? I'm usually shooting one team in particular, so I shoot at one end for each half.
Thanks again for everyone's comments. I know this set-up isn't ideal, but hopefully with manual focus and improved strobes I can get more good shots. |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington | IL | United States | Posted: 3:00 PM on 02.05.03 |
->> I shoot a D60. One of the darkest gyms in town is a few year old Div III colleges. why it isn't lit better, only the architect knows..... On the contrary, the oldest college gym in town has the best lighting.... go figure.
There are a couple of major HS tournaments played there every year. I just shot one of those a couple of weeks ago.
I shot autofocus, 1000 ISO, bounced a Metz CL4 flashgun at 2.8 and 1/200th. I also had to set it to over expose by at least 1&1/3 stops.
Tricky to say the least. Shots were marginal, but worked for what I needed.
I've experienced everything everyone has talked about..even out of doors in broad daylight during football games.
Generally, I don't use any flash. I've monkeyed around using the overexpose feature quite a bit. It seems to be the best solution for the lighting problem.
the focus problem is more difficult. I've considered using a fixed 1.8 lens, but haven't split with the cash yet. Generally I try to use the autofocus to get close and then dial in manually. Using a Canon 70-200mm this isn't too hard, but with other lenses it is more difficult.
I'll go back to my theme from some other posts.... Canon, build us a camera without all the things you put on it that we don't need, and build us one for the same price with just the features we do. Get rid of all those icons on the dial clock wise of the square, and get us some fixes for the focus, shutter over disk write, and ISO speeds.... |
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Robert G. Stevens, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 3:07 PM on 02.05.03 |
->> Alan:
Wait for the D90 next month and see if they have solved many of the problems. I suspect it will be quite a camera for Canon to lower the price of its flagship 1d to a street price of about $3700. Either they are going to replace the 1d and are clearing out stock, or they are lowering its price to be more in line with the D90. The D60 was never a real competitor to the 1d.
The 1d will currently do all you ask except the shutter override. You would have to be shooting action like you were filming it for the movies to run through the 1d 21 frame buffer. The buffer clears pretty quick too. |
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Robert G. Stevens, Photographer
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Halifax | NS | Canada | Posted: 3:14 PM on 02.05.03 |
| ->> I only have experience with a D2000 and an 1D. I just realized I might have misunderstood Alan's shutter override comment. The 1d will continue to shoot while it is writing the buffer to memory as long as there is room in the buffer. It does not wait for the buffer to fill before performing a write, nor does it wait for the buffer to completely empty to continue shooting. Is the D60 different in the way it ques the buffer write? |
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Vincent Guarino, Photographer
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Hudson | NH | USA | Posted: 4:54 PM on 02.05.03 |
->> I have had much success with my EOS 630 and EZ430 with ISO 1000 film. Forget AI servo focus when bb players are coming toward you.
Basically, I would use manual exposure, 125 (sync speed) @f4. Never had too much trouble stopping most action. The EZ430 was set to underexpose by 1/3 or 1/2...can't remember now. I would also use a flash bracket, which helped when using the 80-200. I also used the 85 1.8. Unfortunately, I do not have any of these scanned to show you. But you can't see much of a shadow.
Experiment!
Vin |
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Clark Brooks, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 5:13 PM on 02.05.03 |
->> >>>
My non-dedicated flash is a Vivitar 285. I'm not quite sure about its compatibility with the D60, but it sounds like a manual flash would produce better results than the E-TTL is doing. On the other hand, once I have a 550, I could use that on-camera and have it trigger the 420 as a slave. With a lighting set-up like that, where do you think would be the best place to locate the 420? I'm usually shooting one team in particular, so I shoot at one end for each half.
>>>
Rebecca:
You actually have all the gear you need except a Wein Pro-Sync transmitter and reciever, a 4 ft. pc cord, and a hot shoe w/pc cord attachment. Oh, and a Bogen super clamp. Right or wrong, this is what I've done and got acceptable results from.
Place the 283 on the hot shoe adapter and super clamp on either side of the gym at the top row on the end railing. You can set the flash on the yellow mode (for faster recycle time) or on manual. Attach the Wein receiver to the pc cord set the channel and use gaffer tape or duct tape to secure the pc cord to the receiver (and over the channel select switch to hold it in place). Point the light to either the center circle or at the top of the key. You can always adjust this to suit your taste. This will act as a fill or separation light depending on where you shoot the action. Plus it will also eliminate or minimize the shadows from your main flash as detailed below.
Your shooting position will be on the opposite side of the gym from the corner with the 420EX on camera and a 70-200. Plug the PC extension cord into the camera and attach the other end of the cord to the transmitter.
The transmitter will be fired through the pc socket and the 420 from the on camera hot shoe. Take a few test exposures during warm-ups to get your exposure set. I would shoot 800 ASA - 1/200th at F2.8 to start and adjust from there. The 283 probably won't cycle as fast as the 420 on camera but you should be able to shoot a frame every one and 1/2 to two seconds. Needless to say pick your shots and don't forget to compensate for the D60's shutter delay.
I have used this set-up a couple of times with the D2000 and two metz flash units on quantum batteries with the Pro-Syncs. The recycle time is much faster and depending on the ambient lighting I can sometimes get off two frames before the flash units need to recyle.
Here are a couple of sample shots using this method:
http://www.iphotonews.com/cgi-bin/news/NsVisitor.cgi?job=view_article&artic...
http://www.iphotonews.com/cgi-bin/news/NsVisitor.cgi?job=view_article&artic...
http://www.iphotonews.com/leaderclassic/page/image5.html |
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