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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
MEdia Access Minor League Baseball
Joe Gaylor, Photographer
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Avon | CT | USA | Posted: 7:11 PM on 04.05.04 |
->> Hi Everyone, I am a new member.. My concentration has been corporate and adv. photography ove the years, but am trying to do some sports for the love... My question is there are some Minor League Ball Clubs in my area.. I am wondering If I could get a press pass for media access to games without working for a paper or magazine, any idea what to do? ANy feedback would be appreciated
Thanks GO UCONN |
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Michael J. Treola, Photographer
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Neptune | NJ | USA | Posted: 9:16 PM on 04.05.04 |
->> Joe,
I'd be very surprised is you were to obtain press credential without media affiliation. Even though the level of play is not that of the major leagues most of the operations of the organizations within the minor leagues are modeled after the pros. Yes the minor leagues are slightly more lenient as to field and player access but not enough that they will issue a credential to anyone who wants to shoot a game. Very simply you'll need the affiliation of a newspaper or magazine to obtain credentials.
If you search the message board on the subject you’ll come up with a bunch of different hits on the subject.
Tree |
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Marvin Gentry, Photographer
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Prattville/Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 9:56 PM on 04.05.04 |
| ->> Joe , I just contacted the media relations person for the local minor league team and told them I would give them a CD of the images I shot and they could use them as long as I got credit for them . You jsut have to remeber that you are working media and not the rabid fan with a camera. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philadelphia | PA | US | Posted: 10:10 PM on 04.05.04 |
->> Marvin...do you mind coming to Philadelphia to shoot for my company? Just give me a CD and I'll make sure I give you credit.
As a matter of fact, I could use you every weekend between now and Christams...I'll give you the game schedule and you pick the games you can cover for me; again I'll make sure you get credit. |
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Joe Gaylor, Photographer
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Avon | CT | USA | Posted: 10:19 PM on 04.05.04 |
| ->> Thanks all youre right don't want to be just a rabid fan |
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Joe Kaleita, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 10:20 PM on 04.05.04 |
| ->> I hate to break it to you, but if you're giving your pictures away like that, you aren't working media - you are just a fan with a camera. |
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Michael J. Treola, Photographer
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Neptune | NJ | USA | Posted: 11:08 PM on 04.05.04 |
->> Marvin,
What Delane is trying to say is that when you give away your work for credentials or for free otherwise you are killing the very industry that many photographers rely on for a living. It is without question the worst thing you can do as a photographer and this industry. Very simply you are lowing the bar we are all trying to raise as professionals.
Have you not heard about the terrible work for hire contracts? Or the dismal pay many newspapers and magazines are paying for images? Well if you haven't one of the reasons for this growing trend is because of terrible business practices like the one you have just described above.
If you want to help this profession and ultimately yourself please stop giving away your photo and instead do some research on the business of photography at the various photography sites that have wonderful resources to learn. Spend some time at these sites http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/ or http://www.editorialphoto.com/ with hopes that you understand what your cost of doing business is, what is the minimum amount you can work for to make money and most of all how to make good business decision that don’t have a detrimental effect to all of us as a whole
If ultimately all you care about it access then do what every other photographer has. All of us shooting the stuff we want to be have worked our ass off for a paper or magazine that have put in a position to do so. What I find so interesting is the comment of many people on this board. So many people want to shoot the “good” sports now without putting in the years of hard work to get there. That’s funny to me.
I’m sorry I’ve singled you out, it’s nothing personal, it’s just that your thoughts on access are all wrong and this topic needed to be addressed.
By the way good pictures can be made anywhere. You need not have any professional sports in your portfolio…it means nothing.
My 2 Cents
Tree |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin,
You are "giving them a CD of the images I shot as long as I got credit for them."
Why work for Delane when I'll match that and throw in a free lunch for you on top. I'd like to hear what your offer is for shooting major league sports. |
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Marvin Gentry, Photographer
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Prattville/Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 12:18 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Well I am working on my portfolio and they are helping me by letting me come in a shoot minor league Baseball. They already have a team photographer. They also have asked me to give them the CD so that they control that the photos are not sold. Hey guys I do agree with ya'll totally .But since I dont; havea 4 year degree and MOST media companies will not hire wihtout one I do what I can to shoot the major sports and build my portfolio. Sorry I pissed some of you off . I do understand completely your gripe |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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Amherst | MA | USA | Posted: 12:27 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin
How does giving them a CD control you not selling the photos? A CD can be reproduced over and over again.
There are other ways in, with higher gains, or less losses, than what you are doing. What you are doing can potentially put the paid photog out of business. What you are doing is potentially very bad for our industry. |
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Jeffrey Haderthauer, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Norman | OK | USA | Posted: 12:28 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> You don't need to shoot major sports to build a portfolio. High schools, clubs, youth leagues... it's all the same game. You could even make some money by shooting these, instead of giving away your work for free. Just don't give your images away for access. Once you start doing that, clients will come to expect it. You're just making it harder on yourself to launch a career by giving your work away for free. |
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Joe Gaylor, Photographer
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Avon | CT | USA | Posted: 12:30 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Absolutely, I would never give away images for free... My father set me straight years ago on that one... |
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Hassel Weems, Photographer
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Locust Grove (Atlanta) | GA | USA | Posted: 12:34 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> I used to live in Macon, GA - back when the Braves had a minor league team there. I had a community interest Web site with info on all sorts of things from around town. I wanted to add a page about the Macon Braves, so I called and asked for a pass to shoot 1 game. They said yes, and told me to come by the office before the next game to get my pass. I was expecting a one-time deal, but it was a full season all-access pass with no usage restrictons. This was an "A" team, so it may not be so easy as you move up in the ranks.
I called the local minor league hockey team as well. They gave me a one game pass.
My Web site was not specifically sports related, I had restaurant reviews, museum info, etc. |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 2:25 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Christ, let the guy take some pics of his favorite team, is that so bad? |
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Grant Gannon, Photographer
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Oxford | MS | USA | Posted: 5:13 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin-
Why even bother with the CD? I've been to games at the Hoover Met (I assume your shooting the Barons) and been the only person in my section of box seats?
The stadium is small enough if you get down in the first row and halfway act like you belong there, you should be alright.
Just saying is all..
You spend, maybe $7 for a GA ticket, but it helps the rest of us out. |
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Brian Light, Photographer
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Pennsville | NJ | USA | Posted: 6:42 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Joe... at that level and not shooting for a newspaper, the team can be your only regular source for being a possible customer. Giving them a CD for possible credit only, will only hurt you or anyone else who already shoots images of that team and becomes very unhealthy for the long term viability for photography in your area. If all you want are photos you can shoot from the stands to fill that need for the price of a ticket. You can also take a page from the SS photo contest which the photo of the year wasn't done at some big pro game but at a little league game with 11 and 12 year olds. A good photo in a portfolio doesn't have to be of professional sports to be a good photo. Youth, High School and college games can give you all the action you need to build a good portfolio. |
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Brian Light, Photographer
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Pennsville | NJ | USA | Posted: 7:00 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> John... yes it is so bad. Its bad for everyone who shoots sports for a living. It sets a bad precedent for sports shooters everywhere and is so much worse than any work for hire contract that has already been touched on here many times in the recent days. It is possibly taking food off his and everyone else's table who shoots that team and the teams they play. It sets up an unreasonable expectation with the media guy for that team, who may move to another team and have that expectation there as well. It can at best lower the value of photography in that area with rippling impact to so many other places, and all just cause he wants shots of his favorite team. |
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Marvin Gentry, Photographer
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Prattville/Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 9:08 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Hey guys , I really understand where everyone is coming from . I do my share of high school events every day by shooting sports, plays, Team & Individual, and grip and grins. When I go and shoot professional sports I go for more of a higher end of the game. I have done the paid my game admission to a number of events. I even paid one day and end up getting a tournament paying gig out of it . So I am not trying to undercut the other photogaphers and would never want too. The media credential I requested was for the opening night of a new minor league team . I told him I would give him a CD of the images of that game and maybe we could discuss a deal on the other games and he said they already had a team Photographer. Also I put in a request yesterday for an Arena2 Football team in Birmingham and was told that I would have to furnish them a CD for in return credentials. He also went through the spill that I could not sell them to the public and such and I understand that.
I have even attempted to get college credentials and EVERY SID ask you, are gonna give me a copy of the images. They make you feel like if I give you credentials then what am I going to get out of this , and I have had several tell me this.
OK so I shoot a couple of games T & E and give them to the Team, and then I do a follow up after they see my work. What kind of price should I ask for per game. If I go in a tell him well I will shoot the game for $50.00 then I am too low and then if I go in and say $300 he will probably tell me to take a hike. So whats the going rate? I know it varies in different areas.
Every comment here I have read has not ben taken lightly guys, I know where everyone is coming from. I would never want to take food off the table and I see that I am taking food off my own table. Yes it has made me rethink my issues of shooting for access.
Thanks guys for making sportsshooters worth me spending the money and making me understand the industry better. |
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Rich Stieglitz, Photographer
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Norwalk | CT | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> I just recently ran into a "free" situation while marketing to a minor league baseball team. While the team said they did not have a team photographer and would like one, but costs were an issue, they then said, they get by without one because they get all the pictures they need for free on the side from the newspaper photographers who are there covering the game.....nice huh ? |
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Scott Bush, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Clifton | NJ | USA | Posted: 10:08 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin...i too have no schooling in photography. Although I'll agree that having the degree helps, so does having experience and passion. Work hard at what you want to do and it will come. I have only high school sports in my portfolio, and one college b-ball photo. And I have been happy with what I have gotten because of it. Of course I wish it was more, but it is a great start for me.
I approached a minor league team last year. they had no team photographer. they just would hire a photographer to do T&I. but they were interested in pictures of game action, on field presentation and happenings between innings and pictures of fans (to sell on a website). As soon as I heard the latter (selling pictures to fans), I knew I needed to charge accordingly. Needless to say, that price was way too much. So I tried to work on getting game action pictures for one time web usage to go with the game reports on the teams website. The pay was about what the large dailies in NJ pay. They didn't go for it. It was TOO much for them. Mainly because they also had one or two newspaper guys giving them stuff for free. |
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Larry Aronat, Photographer
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Bakersfield | CA | USA | Posted: 10:37 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> I am a professional in the field of architecture. It took many years of perserverance and effort (college degree & state tesing) to achieve my goal to become an architect. It also requires skill & knowledge to practice architecture. And yet many prospective clients are swayed to using unlicensed individuals by the promise of a lower fee and because there are "workarounds" of the requirement of a licensed architect. Usually the outcome of this scenario is a project that comes very short of its potential because the owner settled for less; this is very disheartening to all architects.
It is the same for the real professionals of photography. My observations of this site only reflect the requirement of photographic skill, sense of timing, knowledge, and aptitude required for sports photography. I think they make it appear way to easy! This talent is a valuable commodity and justifies charging appropriately for it. Also, amateur sportshooters do not live with the pressure of "getting the shot" like real pros do or deal with the competitive nature of the business. In addition, there is overhead and upkeep of equipment, etc. I have an enormous amount of respect for the professional sportshooter.
The proliferation of digital technology makes it easy for everyone to take photographs, but it does not promise outstanding results. The use of a professional can.
I understand the concept of "getting your foot inside the door" to build a portfolio, but giving away work can only hurt your profession in the long run. I would rather charge enough for my talent and be turned down than give away work.
I think the real issue here is about being professional. |
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Brian Westerholt, Photographer
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Kannapolis | NC | USA | Posted: 11:11 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Along the lines of the original topic, which was media access to minor league baseball, I have this info to share.
I have freelanced for Baseball America the last 3-4 years. Last season the Charlotte Knights issued me a full season credential to cover their International League games. I contacted the PR person via e-mail 5-6 weeks ago to inquire about a credential for this season. I did not hear back from him, so I (wrongly) assumed that there would be no problem. I arrived at the stadium yesterday (4/5) for their media day, and found that there was no credential for me. After talking to the PR director it seems that Minor League Baseball is cracking down on issuing credentials to freelancers unless they are specifically on assignment. I was given a waiver that I need to sign and I still have to have Baseball America contact the team regarding either single game credentials or possibly a season pass. The section of the waiver in regards to photographs reads as such:
"PHOTOGRAPHS: Minor League Entities grants to Bearer a limited, non-exclusive, and non-transferrable license to take and publish photographs of the Games soley in connection with news-related coverage by the person or entity that engaged Bearer to take photographs. Bearer grants to Minor League Entities a perpetual, non-exclusive license to use photographs taken by the Bearer of the Games for news-related purposes. Except as specfically licensed in this Paragraph, Bearer must obtain prior written permission to transmit, offer to sell, or sell any photographs of the Games for commercial purposes, including without limitation in connection with third party advertisements or promotions, or on apparel, cups, posters, prints, T-shirts or other consumer products."
The way it was explained to me was there were incidents last season of freelancers selling unlicensed photos, so MiLB is trying to crack down and eliminate this problem. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philadelphia | PA | US | Posted: 11:17 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Brian...I'd strike this line:
"Bearer grants to Minor League Entities a perpetual, non-exclusive license to use photographs taken by the Bearer of the Games for news-related purposes"
if it's saying what I think it says. i.e. they can use the pictures that *I* shot without compensation.
I'd either strike that line or add a line that states "with compensation" |
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Conor O'Healy, Photographer
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Tualatin | OR | USA | Posted: 11:56 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin,
You asked "so I shoot a couple of games T & E and give them to the Team, and then I do a follow up after they see my work. What kind of price should I ask for per game?"
What makes you think that they will pay you after you have given them images for free? If you have given them free images in the past, they will most certainly expect free images in the future.
If a SID or PR person expects a CD of images in return for shooting a game, than honestly, I would look to shoot elsewhere.
Think of it this way. You are getting to shoot some images, that you might be able to use for your portfolio, maybe, but that you can't sell anywhere, to anyone. Period. They are getting images that they can sell to anyone, anywhere, on any terms that they choose. They can make money on the images, and you can't.
How is this even remotly a good deal for you?
There are other places to look to get good sports photos. Adult leagues, high schools, little league, small tournaments usually have good access.
Or here is another idea. Approach the team photographer, and see if you can intern for him/her. That would be an excellent way to not only get images for yourself, but to learn from another photographer.
I know what it is like in your place, I have been there myself, and have made similar mistakes. So have other photographers, and we would like to stop other young photographers from making those mistakes.
Conor |
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Jack Howard, Photographer
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Somerville | NJ | USA | Posted: 11:58 AM on 04.06.04 |
->> On the shameless self-promotion front: I live 1 mile from the Commerce Bank Ballpark, Bridgewater, NJ, home of the Somerset Patriots of the Atlantic League. If anyone needs away-game coverage of their team, contact me through SS.
Of course I am only talking about reputable media outlets that are willing to fairly compensate me for my work... |
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Thad Parsons, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:01 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Was told the same thing yesterday when I called about getting a pass to cover the Durham Bulls this season.
Seems to me that they would want people to cover the games (when I have been previously, I have been the only one there ... or on a 'busy' night, 1 of 3 photogs). |
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Matt Strasen, Photographer
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McKinney | TX | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> As far as getting credentials for a minor league baseball...it never hurts to ask. I now cover the minor league baseball team in Frisco infrequently, but when I moved back to Dallas, one of the first things I did was ask the team if I could shoot an upcoming series. They asked if I worked for anyone, and I told them 'No, I am freelancing.' There was no problem with them credentialing me, and all they asked was if I sold any pictures, to shoot them over a copy of the newspaper. That was all. The Dallas Burn of MLS credentialed me for a game on the Fourth of July, and they knew upfront that I was in college, and totally freelance. That said, I had no clue, and did not sell a thing from either endevour, nor did I use either shots in my portfilio. Asking both of these teams for credentials has not hurt my credibitly or standing with them, and I now cover both on and off for the newspaper.
All that being said, I will repeat myself from before....It never hurts to ask.
Matt |
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Pablo Galvez, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | CANADA | Posted: 12:47 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Marvin,
As a team photographer myself, imagine how the team photographer for that team will feel when they find out that another photographer is coming in for free and handing them a CD of photos in exchange for credentials/credit.
I'm sure that the more you read on SS, the more you will understand this issue and change your frame of mind. It is a very difficult stand to take - having the dicipline in your photography business to turn-down potential portfolio building work because you are not being paid for it.
My wife is the smart one in our family who asks me why I want to shoot some events - there are many times that there is a major game/event in town and I want to go shoot it as I might be able to use the images in a portfolio or for future work. She reminds me that I will not (in the imediate future) make a dime off this and to concentrate on the things that will make you money today. You CAN make money at this business.
Before you take another credential for an un-paying job, spend a full day reading through the SS archives and hopefully you will also understand that photography is a passion first but it must also be a business if you want to continue doing it.
When you asked weather to charge $50 or $300 to shoot the game, the answer (imo) is neither. Shoot something else that will make you $500+ and work on getting a magazine or advertising client to pay you $2000 to cover that game. A little extreme, perhaps, but the principle stands. Don't work for free - don't work for $50. Put some value in your work and people will pay for it. Undervalue yourself and people won't even pay the $50 for it - and in the mean time, no other photographer will get paid for it because the next guy will shoot it for free to get credentials... and the cycle continues.
Your best resources, aside from the SS archives, are the websites listed above for NPPA and similar, and columns by Rick Rickman and Mark Loundry (I'm surprised neither of them have chimed in on this one yet as they both have a great knowledge of the business of photography). Also, Delane (although at times a bit harsh :) ) has some great advice so listen to what he writes.
I wish you the best of luck and remember that this change is not a bad thing, but a very, very, good thing and when it starts to turn around for you (as it has for me) you will be very thankful to this community for the direction.
Feel free to email me directly if you need clarification on any of these points.
Good luck,
-Pablo |
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Brian Westerholt, Photographer
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Kannapolis | NC | USA | Posted: 1:33 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Delane -
Thanks for the suggestion - I did not catch that when I read it the first time, but I agree with you. If they are going to get tight fisted about who shoots the games, then it is only fair that we, the photographer community, do the same in regards to being compensated for usage of our work. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philadelphia | PA | US | Posted: 2:30 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Conor...that's an excellent idea.
" Approach the team photographer, and see if you can intern for him/her. That would be an excellent way to not only get images for yourself, but to learn from another photographer"
Assuming that there is no ulterior motive, that would be the best way to learn this business.
If there are any students/beginners in the Philadelphia area, I'm offering the opportunity to intern for a game, day, week, month, whatever...with my studio. We have the Philadelphia KiXX/MISL (Indoor Soccer) playoffs starting this weekend...you're more than welcome to tag along (and shoot).
Also...I average 1 game per day during the week...so anytime ANYONE wants to come along for the experience...give me a ring or email me directly delane@contrastphotography.com
dbr |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 3:55 PM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Brian, I dont think that the problem with this Industry is a guy shooting some pics of a minor league baseball team for free because he enjoys doing it. it appears to me that the industry has doomed itself on simple supply/demand issues. Go to a college football game and there is at least 50-70 photographers there shooting perhaps 300 pics each, conservatively estimating thats about 18,000 pictures, 18,000 supply, perhaps 30 demand. Tell me how everyone is going to get paid? I have a job that has nothing to do with photography and cant imagine trying to make a living at this, if you guys can do it my hat is off to you because it is a tough biz, but you shouldnt beat up on people doing this because they love it. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:13 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Wow, other than the Fiesta Bowl, I've never been to a college football game that had 50-70 photographers. But, if you figure a large Div I game in a large metropolitan area probably is serviced by two larger newspapers (two photogs each), a half dozen smaller dailies, a half dozen weeklies, two or three wire services, say three or four magazines, and a few miscellaneous others. And, you get about 30 photographers. All of them are shooting for different outlets; so there really is a demand for that many photographers. And, even if there are thousands of images taken, each photographer isn't going to transmit or file hundreds each.
I'm not one to tell anybody what the right thing is to do, but any work that is printable has value. And, if you are giving away a product of value for free, you are undercutting the market. And, thus you are contributing to the rate reductions that a lot of photographers have noted in the past few years. There *is* a lot of supply out there. But, as long as the prices on all of that supply is comparable people will be able to make a living.
Mr. Green, I don't know what it is taht you do. But, if I could do a halfway competent job at it, and I came to your boss and said, "I'm independently wealthy, but I love this work. Just let me work for free and give me some recognition every once in awhile." How long do you think it would be before you were let go? |
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Jeremy Messler, Photographer, Assistant
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Cherry Hill | NJ | USA | Posted: 4:29 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Something else to keep in mind- many minor league baseball programs have limited budgets - many times they use their own interns to shoot images for their website, promotional events... A buddy of mine worked something out where he had a full access pass and could shoot when he wanted. if the team needed images - they simply "purchased" the ones they wanted. Not the best way to do things since you are not garenteed money - but this could lead to a better deal with them. ie -they realize how much 'better' your images are then the intern with the point'n shoot.
Also - not to kill a dead horse - but the beauty of high school sports is they are free, close, often...and many great pictures can be produced!
Instead of approaching a minor league baseball- approach the local little league president - I am sure they will give you full access |
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Zack Uribe, Photographer
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Santa Clara | CA | USA | Posted: 5:14 PM on 04.06.04 |
->> Mr. Green,
Guess how many of those photographers on the D1 sideline are doing EXACTLY what you are doing at Minor League baseball. Some of them are Alumni who are doctors, lawyers, etc. They are offering their pictures for free to anyone who wants them/will give them credentials.
Right now they might not be taking a job away from a Professional, but as budgets shrink, more of them will go with the free pictures. This was not as big an issue in the past because the hassle and time of film developing was a deterent, with Digital, there are going to be more and more people who "have a job that has nothing to do with photography" who do not care if they damage the market for photography..since they have no vested interest in it. |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 5:24 PM on 04.06.04 |
| ->> Nick, I see your point, it's just my perception the the balance of power is in the hands of the picture publishers and not the picture takers much as it is in acting, modeling, golf, tennis, baseball, etc, theres a handful that are successful and play at the highest level and then theres the rest. Econ 101 supply has overpowered demand and prices fall, how do you fix that? by the way, that shot of Michelle Wie in the sunset is off the "hizzel" as they say |
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Pablo Galvez, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | CANADA | Posted: 12:12 AM on 04.07.04 |
->> John,
I think photographers realize the supply/demand thing and it is obviously being effected by the "free photo" folks.
By discussing this topic as well as others like the poor wfh contracts, we can work together to a collective goal that can keep us who do this for a living - doing it.
The power doesn't have to be in the publishers hands...
-Pablo |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 3:22 AM on 04.07.04 |
| ->> Hey Zach, I am not the one shooting Minor League Baseball, you need to go all the way to the top of the page and catch up. Secondly, some people just do this as a "hobby" because the love doing it. Who are you to tell them that they're destroying your industry by doing what they love to do. Photography isnt just for the "professionals" its for anyone who wants to do it period. If you're struggling to make a living get out, but you dont have to villainize all photographers that "have a job that has nothing to do with photography" |
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Robert Oliver, Photographer
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San Diego (Oceanside) | CA | USA | Posted: 4:20 AM on 04.07.04 |
->> maybe this site needs to be split into two groups. prosportsshooter.com (for those of us who are interested in making a living with a camera) and notprosportsshooter.com (for those hobbyists who want to pretend to be like us whom are fortunate enough to make a living with a camera). These arguments are a waste of time. The "hobbyists" will never give a crap about not killing the industry because this is how they have their fun. The pros will never be accepting of the free photo giver awayers (do we have a term yet) because we are only interested in keeping our businesses alive and providing for our family.
It's like beating a dead horse. You can do it all day long but it won't do much good.
All the professional photographers can do is keep doing things better than the free photo giver awayers. Hopefully clients will recognize the difference in quality and service.
While they are driving their trucks or performing surgery, we should be marketing and improving our skills/services. |
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Brian Light, Photographer
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Pennsville | NJ | USA | Posted: 7:14 AM on 04.07.04 |
->> John I think the points are that they don't have to shoot Professional baseball to build a good portfolio and honestly giving away work just isn't healthy on so many levels beyond just harmful to those doing it for a living. If you are not doing it for a living and plan to give it away shoot at the HS level where outside of a local newspaper photographer you will hardly ever see anyone shooting it. If it is truly a hobby than your work should be hanging on your own wall and not harming those who do this for a living.
This site is about good sports photography and a big part of this is about doing things that make good business sense for yourself but importantly also for the industry as a whole. There may come a time where a hobbyist decides to move to this as a full time endeavor, we see it here all the time. By being the shooter who gave away work, making that change will now be infinitely more difficult as those you gave to will no longer see value in what you are providing because they have grown accustomed to you just giving it away. You have to see the value in what you are doing and you have to have an understanding of what that value you see has cost and price this accordingly. If you don't do these simple little steps you will only contribute to the decline of this industry. Working as a united whole we can reverse this trend.
This is an argument you can't win here, industry professionals are very giving with their wisdom on this site and if you see value in their wisdom then understand the work, the sweat behind it and while they love doing it, they have families to support, equipment to buy and employees to pay before you advocate that people should be able to give away their work if they want. Nobody here has attacked you for not being a working professional and the working professionals here have every right to let people here know what harms the industry. |
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John Green, Photographer
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Redlands | CA | US | Posted: 12:39 PM on 04.07.04 |
| ->> Robert, how much did you make last year? Did you get what you feel your worth? I'm not shooting minor league baseball, and I'm not "giving" away for free, that was the 2nd guy who submitted to this messageboard and you all went off on him as if he robbed your house. I submit to magizines and they pay what they pay, which for the most part is laughable! When I get a check for $75 in the mail I'm not saying to myself "I gotta do this for a Living" I'm not a "professional" photographer because I cannot see a way that I could earn what I'm accustomed to earning without shooting portraits, weddings, Old Ladys and their dogs, etc in which I have no interest in doing. My only point is if this guy, who is I'm assuming, not a pro wants to shoot his local Minor League Baseball team just for fun, and his deal is he has to give away his pics to do it thats a decision for him to make, not you! Perhaps he can get some great shots whitch leads to a paying gig and then he can feed his family. |
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Thad Parsons, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:35 PM on 04.07.04 |
->> John,
Please take note of who you are talking to. My mom told me to know who I was talking to before opening my mouth! For your information, Robert Olivier is a team photographer for multiple minor league teams (and I am sure that he does not give his images away). Some of the other people who have chimed in on this thread are very well established & knowledgable freelancers.
I would like to submit that one reason that you are not saying that "I can make a living doing this" is that the "professional" photographers (and I am including those who, like me, do it as a second job) treat photography both as a passion and as a business. Since we "professionals" (and I am using your quotes), treat the industry as just that, a business, we can make a living at photography.
Hope this helps. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 2:17 PM on 04.07.04 |
| ->> And I might add Robert is an example of making great photos of pro AND little league. |
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John Riddell, Photographer
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Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 3:06 PM on 04.07.04 |
->> This came in handy in a thread regarding freelancing.
Mirrian-Webster's definition says it all:
Amateur;
1 : DEVOTEE, ADMIRER
2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science
John
Toronto, Canada |
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Robert Oliver, Photographer
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San Diego (Oceanside) | CA | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 04.07.04 |
->> John. The point is if whoever ever has hopes of making money as a photographer, giving away photos is a slippery slope. Once it starts it's hard to get off and headed back uphill. This is for them and everybody else.
sorry us pros are fighting so hard to stay in business. It's frustrating that people are taking business away from working pros because they want to have fun with a camera. I don't venture into other people's occupations and give stuff away. It's a ethics thing. do unto others.
take pictures. don't take away somebody's income.
I make a living off of "the stuff allsport and AP doesn't cover". That is my business model. It's financial suicide to try to compete against a monster like Getty. If you can't beat them, find a market for the things they don't do. I've been pro since 89. The first couple of years I was waiting tables and working for community newspapers. For the last 12 years 100% of my income has come from photography. Since then I've seen numerous people who've tried to come in and undercut me fail and disappear. I just quit a magazine senior photographer position I've held for years because the income just wasn't worth the time and energy. They weren't willing to budge so I had to move on.
I've even added a couple of clients who were used to free photos. I was able to show them major league quality and service. The biggest bummer is educating them on the "value" of photography after the bean counters are used to freebies in that area of the spreadsheet. Once it starts it's hard to get clients back into that paying mindset.
You have to prove to them that presenting professional quality images can help show potential fans that they can get quality entertainment for their money.
Sports teams (minor and pro) are in the business to make money. They need to be assured that the money they spend on images can be turned into more money at the turnstiles.
As technology improves it's going to be harder and harder to keep this going. I started when manual exposure and manual focus were mandatory. It was hard to fake it way back then.... (not that long ago). Now any joe with 10,000 can make usable images.
Pros need to keep finding ways that seperate the men from the boys (women from the girls). Maybe someday I'll get noticed and I'll get one of those dream jobs that will have me at every major sporting event and making bank. But I'm not going to risk my families future on it. I'll keep working my butt off with the things I do best. (I love minor league sports)
part of this site's biggest attraction is for beginning photographers to get inspiration and advice from established professional photographers so that we all may profit in the future. To bad the voices of the experienced are being drowned out by the voices of the inexperienced on issues such as these.
I am definitely in the fight to rid the world of the IFPO mentality. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 3:53 PM on 04.07.04 |
| ->> IFPO Mentality? |
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Robert Oliver, Photographer
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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Amherst | MA | USA | Posted: 6:20 PM on 04.07.04 |
->> I've sat this one out for a while, but feel the urge to chime in on the industry, and hobbyists.
I shot for an AFL team last season, I like the team, they liked me, usually good for business. During the season I spoke with a guy in the stands fairly often about shooting, the gear, showed him a bit about how to shoot, etc.
This season, this person (who is a podiatrist for a living I believe) is charging $260 less than I was per home game, $460 less than I was per away game, and he does not bill for travel days, because he is not shooting (I should add the team goes by bus, I found out he is now paying his own air fare so he can shoot away games, and not miss a day of work).
The team approached me to ask if I could come down to these numbers. After all the owner really liked my work and wanted to keep me around this season. Obviously I said no.
I know another photog who owns strobes, uses two pro-DSLR bodies, has long glass, even can remote transmit, but gives his photos to the SID at no charge, because he doesn't do it for the money.
Both of these tactics are not only hurting me directly, but have a ripple effect which affects other photogs in this area. I know a photog who shoots for another SID in the region, and he has been approached by the SID to slash his fees by 50% to remain with the University as a photog. He has said no. A photog who shoots hockey for the same owners of the AFL team was approached by the owners to cut his prices by about 60% to compete with the pricing of the guy now shooting the AFL team.
These teams have the money to spend, and did not have problems spending the money in the past. Now that doctors and housewives can afford a digital SLR and a laptop to get photos up quickly, these clients now see a way to lower their costs.
In the past most hobbyists could not learn as quickly because there was no chimping to gauge their exposure instantly. Hobbyists could not get the film processed, edited, and turned around as quickly as a client needed. With a D100 or 10D, and two used fast lenses ($3,500 gets you a 10D, 17-35f2.8, 70-200f2.8 and a few CF cards if you shop around), and a laptop which can be justified as a family computer, or a computer you can use for your other job, you can afford to give away your photos.....because now photography is cheaper.
Digital photography was initially able to help established photographers in many way. With the advancement of consumer DSLR bodies, and the number of hobbyists clawing around, it is now negatively impacting many professional photographers.
Never give photos away to teams or leagues. Never give them away to potential clients. You can give them to your friends and family, but cutting into the market will only drag it down for ALL of us.
.....on a side note I was photographing a bank CEO today for a client, and the CEO remarked that the internal public relations photos looked nothing like mine, despite the fact that many of them has also been shot in her office, the board room, out front. I asked the CEO if the person from the PR department brought any strobes which were able to be placed away from the camera, if the PR photog knew how to create hair light, and if the PR photog had ever thought to bring the CEO up on the scaffolding to get a different angle of her. In the end she said they just used a small P&S digital, and I just lined up another client :0) |
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Jaime R. Carrero, Photographer
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Lewisville | TX | USA | Posted: 4:15 AM on 04.26.04 |
->> It never ceases to amaze me the faulty logic "amateurs" use to justify undercutting and giving their pictures away.
1) If you want to shoot for the love of photography,because it's your hobby,your "passion" go ahead and do it.
2) if you aspire to be a professional and still give your work away to hopefully entice someone with your "talent" you're wasting your time.
3) If you don't undestand Licensing and Usage of images and have no clue what it costs you to be in business you may look like a pro but you ain't a pro
4) True there are 60-70 people shooting NFL games and not all are geting paid
5) see #2
6) Photography is the only profession where we allow the client to dictate the price of our work (don't believe it? look at the AP contract that has dragged publicaion contracts into a black hole.)
7) If you think you can make it into the "pro" ranks because you got a digital camera and some glass you're dreaming
8) There IS an over supply of photographers, some good, some not, too many wannabe's lowballing everybody else (including the podiatrist not doing it for the money)
9) If your "pro" philosophy is: "As long as I get mine who cares?" You are a rat and one of the reasons the profession is in crisis,BTW you may look the part but you ain't no pro.
10) End of rant,now let's go out there and make a living. Wannabe's shoot it for yourself. |
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Chris Fuller, Photographer
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Pine Beach | NJ | USA | Posted: 6:01 AM on 04.26.04 |
| ->> I say go for it. Contact the PR guy/girl and ask. There's nothing to lose. I do agree with what Tree is saying but if I'm not mistaken he already works for a newspaper (Asbury Park Press) which I've contacted several times and can't seem to break in. So if you aren't able to get in at a paper and still want to shoot, Just do it! Don't worry about the industry. It'll survive and maybe force papers to give others a shot. Contact any team you want to photograph. You may be pleasantly surprised. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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Amherst | MA | USA | Posted: 8:29 AM on 04.26.04 |
->> Mr. Fuller:
You wrote:
"Just do it! Don't worry about the industry. It'll survive and maybe force papers to give others a shot"
Do I understand your post correctly in that you are saying it is OK to give photos away? It seems almost as if you give this advice because you are unable to break into the Asbury Park Press.
Do you mean intend to mean that doing whatever you have to do for access, regardless of the potential impact won't hurt the industry? The industry is NOT surviving, which is the problem.
Please correct me if I am reading your post wrong, because right now as I read and reread your post it appears that you don't see a problem with the way the industry is going. |
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