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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Yikes......
Jamey Price, Photographer, Assistant
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 5:22 PM on 02.04.13
->> This might be a new low for published photos. This is in the USA Today Super Bowl gallery. WOW. Someone needs to have their eyes checked.

https://twitter.com/jameypricephoto/status/298553880143347713/photo/1

More here:

http://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/gallery/1888439/best-images-from-su.../
 This post is:  Informative (4) | Funny (1) | Huh? (7) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 5:36 PM on 02.04.13
->> Don't hold anything back now; tell us what you really think.
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Douglas Cottle, Photographer
Tuscola | Illinois | United States | Posted: 6:39 PM on 02.04.13
->> Jamey,

The photo you posted on your blog was taken by Robert Deutsch. He is an SS member.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=26

Why not ask him why it was submitted for publication.
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Michael Prengler, Photographer
Dallas / Ft. Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 7:10 PM on 02.04.13
->> I'll fault the editor or the web gallery person more than I would the photog.

We have no idea what the workflow was or how pressed they were with the lights going out etc and trying to make a deadline.
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Jim Colburn, Photographer
Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 7:12 PM on 02.04.13
->> "This might be a new low for published photos"

Au contraire, Monsieur Price. This is not even close to being a low (new or otherwise) for published photos. Think emotional moment rather than technical perfection...
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James Durbin, Photographer
Midland | Texas | USA | Posted: 7:16 PM on 02.04.13
->> Jamey, you are 100% right, it is soft. However, lets compare that image to the photos you got from the Super Bowl.
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Assistant
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 7:25 PM on 02.04.13
->> I apologize if I've offended.

I don't blame the photographer.

Maybe this is aiming for emotional moment, but I am certain there are better images from Robert or someone else from the team. I know that Mark Rebilas made plenty of nice frames from the field. The images in the rest of the gallery are both emotional and sharp. This one just didn't fit the standard of the rest.
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Peter Huoppi, Photographer
New London | CT | USA | Posted: 8:37 PM on 02.04.13
->> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L0fS7ZgAJA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m5s
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Bruce Ely, Photographer
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 02.04.13
->> I like the picture.
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Michael Granse, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:11 PM on 02.04.13
->> This one was not exactly razor sharp either, and yet it managed to run in publications all over the world and remains forever etched in the memory of anyone who has seen it.

http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0309/lm12.html
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
Dublin | OH | USA | Posted: 9:23 PM on 02.04.13
->> I have to speak up and say that comparing an image taken as an emotional representation of a Superbowl is hardly worthy of comparing against an Eddie Adams photo from the Vietnam War, especially this one.
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T.J. Hamilton, Photographer
Grand Rapids | MI | USA | Posted: 9:26 PM on 02.04.13
->> I like the picture too. Just theorizing, but for argument's sake maybe the frame before or after was sharper, but maybe the moment didn't tell the story like this frame. The body language and expression on the player's face shows how he feels. I think being technically perfect in every way would be great, but in the end as a journalist we tell stories with photos. Whether they are a little soft or razor sharp. Michael Granse gave a great example, and I could easily dig up a few more famous moments that weren't tack sharp. Ease up on the guys on deadline.
Getting off the soap box now.
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 9:49 PM on 02.04.13
->> Bruce -- me too.
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:36 PM on 02.04.13
->> Does the image tell the story should taking precedent over if it's tack sharp, but that's just me. Great expression in Bob Deutsch's image.


As for Eddie Adams image.... well, arguably the best news image ever made... other than that.. no big deal.
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Keith Simonian, Photographer
Martinez | CA | USA | Posted: 10:57 PM on 02.04.13
->> A little off topic, but I didn't realize you could link a youtube video to play and start at any point in the video like Peter did.
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 9:20 AM on 02.05.13
->> @Keith - it's a new feature. Click the share link while the video is playing or paused at the spot you want and check the appropriate box...
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 11:08 AM on 02.05.13
->> OK, I'll bite. I normally don't give a shit (let alone two) about the rating system here, but for the "Huh's" directed at Bruce and I ...

Aside from my shooting duties here at the paper I also regularly work on the editing desk -- night desk, Metro, business, etc. Suffice to say, I can walk the walk on this one.

Is it a perfect picture? No, of course not. Not many are. Photo editing is wildly selective and given enough time and the right mood, anyone can find *something* to nit-pick.

Folks who truly hate this picture are, in my humble opinion, a little overly-concerned with the obvious traits of the classical, "good" sports image: sharpness, peak action, etc.

Let's face it -- technology being what it is, I'd expect just about anyone to go to a football game and come back with sharp pictures, peak action, etc., etc. That bar was passed a long, long time ago. It's one of the reasons so many folks clamor to this site thinking they are, basically, a good sports photographer.

I'd prefer to label them competent; they have enough of a grasp on the technology and the game to, in the words of my good amigo (and a damn fine sports photographer himself) Nick King, not "shit the bed."

So back to the photo. Why do I like it? I just do. Again, picture editing is subjective. But to elaborate, to my mind this photo fills the frame nicely with tension, moment, context and mood to effectively communicate a part of the story of this game. Said simply, it's an intriguing dejection photo, and it has enough going on that it would have warranted a second look from me if I were on the desk Sunday night, poring over the several thousand images from this game that moved across the wire.

Think I'm bullshitting? Think I only like this photo because it's Bob's, and aside from having a shit-ton of respect for the guy, I also consider him a good acquaintance? Fine -- you're welcome to that with no arguments from me.

But to go all apoplectic and insist that the very existence of this image is the coming of the antichrist is, to me, a good bit much.

So anyway, like the photo, don't like the photo, whatever. You're all as entitled to your opinions as Bruce and I are. So maybe we all just agree to disagree on this one.

But seriously, ratchet it down a notch, Jamey et al. Life's a little too short to freak out over something that's really not super important in the grand scheme of things.

Cheers,

- gerry -
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer, Photo Editor
PLANET | EARTH | | Posted: 1:03 PM on 02.05.13
->> Can I get a "Hell Yeah!!!!" and an "Amen" from the congregation. Well said
GJ. It's tiresome to have purported professionals criticize guys who were walking the walk and talking the talk while they were in diapers, and who still deliver the goods. A very Uncool thread.
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Perrone Ford, Photographer
Tallahassee | FL | US | Posted: 1:52 PM on 02.05.13
->> I wonder if it's something shared by those of us who grew up on manual focus. Where you had to be on your game and a bit lucky to get both "the moment" and "the focus". I've seen SO many great photos that were a little soft, and it never really bothered me too much.

I remember looking at an SI shot a few weeks ago of a Laker game. Floor camera, Pau Gasol falling toward camera in an ultra-wide view. Image was powerful but a bit soft. I noticed it was soft, but said, "damn, cool shot."

I'm not great sports photographer, but get my fair share every once in a while. And have for nearly 30 years now. I guess I am just not in a position to judge other's work that harshly. Especially someone with a Superbowl credential, shooting for a wire service or major paper.
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Steven Bridges, Photographer
Knoxville | TN | United States | Posted: 2:11 PM on 02.05.13
->> Take pictures, draw pictures and even preach, man G.J. can do everything!
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Randy Sartin, Photographer, Assistant
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 2:17 PM on 02.05.13
->> Even if you do not like the image referenced here, Robert's images of Beyonce would make up for running images taken with a lens cap still on. :)
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 2:24 PM on 02.05.13
->> " ... man G.J. can do everything!"

That's not true by a long shot. I do like two things really well -- folding a fitted sheet, and the ability to tell if my two-year-old needs to visit the bathroom just by looking at him -- and everything else ranges from "just ok" to "this is the worst thing anyone's ever seen."

Trust me.
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 2:49 PM on 02.05.13
->> Let me see...

Professionals excoriate a student who dares to submit un-sharp images in support of his assertion of an "extremely underqualified SID"...and someone even emails the link to his boss and gets him fired.

Fast forward a few weeks later, and professionals excoriate another professional for daring to criticize an unsharp image submitted by...a professional.

Lesson: it is OK to beat up on people who have less experience in the business than you, but not on more senior photographers. Got it.
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Robert Herrera, Photographer, Assistant
Lakeland | FL | United States | Posted: 2:59 PM on 02.05.13
->> "I do like two things really well -- folding a fitted sheet...."

You've just bested about 99% of the world's population.
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 2:59 PM on 02.05.13
->> Yes Chuck. That's exactly how it works. We have secret meetings and shit where we make up all these rules.

Your overly simplistic platitudes and attempts at starting some sort of flame are giving me a migraine.
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Matt Cashore, Photographer
South Bend | IN | USA | Posted: 4:04 PM on 02.05.13
->> When I read this thread I had two thoughts:

1. I first saw this photo on my iPhone, and at that size it looked fine. Clear body language and the player's head was perfectly framed by the confetti in the winning team's colors. Good storytelling image. Most wire images these days will be used only on websites as thumbnail-sized teasers for video clips. Few images will have trees killed on their behalf.

2. If the credit had been Mark J. Rebilas/USA Today Sports Images, or someone else who's affiliated with the USPW side of USATSI...well, I'm confident this thread would have a very different tone.

I've been around here long enough to have a 3-digit member number. I am well aware of what happens when you say unpopular things. (And I don't want to give Gerry migraines--they suck.) But I agree in a general sense with what Chuck Steenburgh says...there's a double-standard on conspicuous display in this thread and I'm not going to let it go unmentioned. I'll take my "inappropriates" like a man.

P.S. I'll save you all the trouble: 1. Yes I am affiliated with USPW/USATSI and 2. Here's MY not-sharp Super Bowl photo:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/UyCKVVUwfNTSLOBA0cByGZzB7m1kO0Ez6Ars8u...

Ooooh, this is gonna be fun...
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Victor Biro, Photographer
Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 4:07 PM on 02.05.13
->> "...and someone even emails the link to his boss and gets him fired."

Ouch. That's a bit harsh, and unnecessary.
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David Hungate, Photographer
Roanoke | VA | United States | Posted: 5:36 PM on 02.05.13
->> Matt-

The photogs in the background are tack sharp.

So, you've got that going for you....
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer, Photo Editor
PLANET | EARTH | | Posted: 6:42 PM on 02.05.13
->> Matt, I think you're either over thinking this or just wanted everyone to know you shot a Super Bowl. I didn't read anything in anyone's post about USPW or USAToday sports photos. What is it with you USPW guys? I mean honestly, most of you (who comment on this message board) seem to have a giant chip on your shoulder. It's okay. No one's accusing you of working for free.....we know......you get paid $125/day....no ones making fun of ya'll anymore. Relax. Every thread Is not ALWAYS about USPW. If you do want to start another thread I'm sure there are a crapload of members who will be glad to jump all over you if you want. But the fact if the matter is Bob Deutsch is one helluva photographer. He was around long before USPW and actually was able to make photos before the advent of equipment which made any fool with enough money to buy high end equipment a "photographer". He deserves respect, not to get smacked around by a bunch of frustrated wannabee's.
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Robert Seale, Photographer
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 6:51 PM on 02.05.13
->> Who gives a shit?
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Robert Seale, Photographer
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 6:56 PM on 02.05.13
->> Seriously folks, back away from the computer, take a walk outside, play some tennis, throw the ball for your dog, maybe even talk to a live girl, .....Deutsch was shooting Super Bowls when most of you were mere zygotes. Get a life.
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 7:34 PM on 02.05.13
->> @Perrone, I had a picture last year very similar to what you saw in SI. http://tinyurl.com/a6shnl2

Sometimes content outweighs quality. Do I wish it was sharp? You bet your ass! Did it keep me from using it? Of course not.

BTW, Bob Deutsch is a photo god. Also, I'm not positive that his picture is as much out of focus as it is under res. There are a few in the gallery that look like they were put out at low resolution.
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Gene Boyars, Photographer
Matawan | NJ | United States | Posted: 8:48 PM on 02.05.13
->> Thank you Mr. Seale for some very good advice.... not that most will listen but it is solid advice
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Willis Glassgow, Photo Editor, Photographer
Florence | SC | USA | Posted: 10:08 AM on 02.06.13
->> WOW....we sound like members of congress here....LOL. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with many of you all at the same time. But there are several factors that I think most of us will agree on. Here are a few below

1) Time matters - The images referenced by Jamie are time sensitive and were needed immediately after being shot. I'll bet they were barely glanced at before being posted by the editor. The criticizism Bob Deutsch here is not fair, just because one of his images that got posted is soft. We all have images that are soft from time to time. Remember he didn't edit it. But I'm also sure he wouldn't want that as a portfolio shot either.

2) Quantity over Quality - Because of the internet, USA, SI, ESPN, etc, can publish an infinite number of images from an event. So.....they do. With that being said, they will pick all kinds of images that would have never been used in the past or in a magazine. Again, this is not Bob Deutsch's fault.

I agree with Chuck and Matt about experienced photogs get a pass sometimes even if their work is not great. BUT, maybe they deserve to get that pass. Maybe they have earned it. (Maybe not, but let's not bicker and argue over that now.) But, it's like that in EVERY profession. There ARE double standards. It's life.

For once, I don't agree with Chuck. (I normally do agree with him.) I don't think Matt was trying to let everyone know that he was shooting the Super Bowl, I believe he was just trying to reference that, because he understands the unique situation at the Super Bowl and how challenging it is cover something of that nature.

As for liking or not liking that one particular image. I don't hate it, but I don;t love it either. Yes, it's a little soft and it's a little dark. I wouldn't put this on the cover of USA Today, or SI, but I have no problems putting it with a bunch of other images on a website in a gallery. (Just curious, why didn't anyone use fill flash for the post game celebration shots?......Is it not allowed?)

BTW - I have NEVER covered a Super Bowl, NEVER covered a World Series, NEVER covered an NBA championship, NEVER covered an FBS championship, NEVER covered a Final Four, in fact, I've NEVER covered an NBA or MLB game EVER. But I have covered nearly ever NCAA D2 Baseball Championship since 2002, (I missed a couple of years) several NCAA D2 & D3 football championships and ...........Drum roll please.......I am the official photog for the NAIA Football Championship too. So I got that going for me.....LOL.
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Nic Coury, Photographer
Monterey | CA | | Posted: 12:35 PM on 02.06.13
->> Jamey, I love you man, but I think you're way off.

Maybe because I come from the journalism side of photography, but moment always outweighs technicality, unless it's completely unusable.

It's a nice image, though I would have cropped it a bit more...
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Mark Sobhani, Photographer
San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 5:32 PM on 02.06.13
->> A new low for published photos? Au contraire! http://www.chron.com/news/gallery/house-freshmen-photo-joaquin-castro-52531...
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David Seelig, Photographer
Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 5:45 PM on 02.06.13
->> I was converting some old shots from color to B&W from the manual focus days as back then you could easily get away with soft images. Now a days everything is so sharp, after over sharpening, it looks like crap to me at times like a cartoon. Get a life look at Cartier Bressons work not much is all that sharp
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David Seelig, Photographer
Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 5:46 PM on 02.06.13
->> PS alos look at the Americans by Robert Frank
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 9:43 AM on 02.07.13
->> OK, I waited to respond. As usual I wrote a few responses and deleted them figuring someone would scream at me. Here is my take after looking at the gallery of 100 images used by USA Today.

1. Robert Deutsch worked his ass off. His take from the whole game is solid.

2. After the game, Robert Deutsch appears to be the only photog on the team who thought "hey, there is a losing team too". Save for one image by Ms. LoGuidice, there are no other dejection pixs in the gallery.

3. Do I fault Robert Deutsch for an out of focus photo? Not at all. In that environment with a mobbed field, all that confetti, trying to cover the field...I am sure there were tons of OOF photos.

4. Could this photo have been used in print, especially on a Front or Sports Front? Well, as a standalone, no. Everyone trying to mitigate because of content...I am throwing the bullshit flag. Taken alone, if that was the photo some small paper wanted as their cover, would it work? Would you use it? Not a chance. Let's be real. We aren't talking about a Pulitzer moment here, those rare photos where content overrides technical aspects.

5. Did it hit a check box on some editors list for "Dejection Photo"? Check. Since no one else on the USA Today team bothered to make a worthy image, they used Robert Deutsch's - which has fine content and it a decent moment, but out of focus.

Here is the thing, no one is blaming Robert Deutsch for taking an out of focus photo. My guess is if he were covering the game by himself, he is such a professional, he wouldn't even move the photo. The bigger elephant in the room that no one has touched is that that photo, that OOF photo that no paper could use in print, was the best the USA Today team came up with. I saw great action/reaction images in that gallery, especially Raven's jube. From the losers side...not so much. Would I have done better or worse, who knows. Does it matter? Just going off that gallery of 100 images, I think that is an honest assessment. I am not perfect at editing. Everyone here can go look at some of my edits and I am sure my team's have move some crap from major horse events. It happens. I doesn't mean that folks should be disqualified from critiquing a take after the fact. Where I learned photo-j, the brutally honest critique was all part of the process.
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Thread Title: Yikes......
Thread Started By: Jamey Price
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