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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Packers Seahawks Ending
David Welker, Photographer, Assistant
Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 12:15 AM on 09.25.12
->> Thoughts? Time to pay up for the real refs? Media rushing the field prior the game being over. It might be interesting to hear some thoughts from those who were there about it all.
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
Cheyenne | WY | USA | Posted: 12:42 AM on 09.25.12
->> I'd like to see an SS members that may have been there that got any shots of the play.
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Max Waugh, Photographer
Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 1:01 AM on 09.25.12
->> None of the prime time games this season have helped the league's side in the negotiations, that's for sure. But Steve Young may be right that the league won't care as long as fans continue to tune in.

From a fan's perspective, most of my fellow Hawk fans acknowledge the Packers got screwed, but nobody feels bad given that "regular" refs called a phantom game-winning TD in a Seattle/Jets game that cost the Hawks a playoff berth years ago. And don't get them started on Super Bowl XL...
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Ed Mulholland, Photographer
Pompton Lakes | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:22 AM on 09.25.12
->> I just love the photographer kneeling in the back of the endzone pumping his fist and cheering the TD call...way to go...
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Richard Hurtado, Photographer
Temecula | CA | USA | Posted: 2:24 AM on 09.25.12
->> Hate that the game ended the way it did but I love the fact that these replacement officials continue to make mistake after mistake. The NFL is losing credibility. Sooner or later they will see the value in the regular officials. I just hate that the season will be forever "stained" by these bafoons known as the replacement officials. One thing is for sure. They are making some great (bad) calls that are allowing the games to be super close!!!!

The season has been an exciting one so far. What makes it better is that you can expect ridiculous calls from these refs that may just change the outcome of the game as what happened tonight!!!!!!

GB got boned!!!!!!!!!! However, the one thing I'll say is that GB should not have allowed it to be that close. They lost because of sloppy play AND a bad call. Not just a bad call.
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
Owings Mills | MD | USA | Posted: 8:59 AM on 09.25.12
->> After the calls at the Ravens game, I'm out until something gets done. No joke. It was amusing at first, but now it's just an exercise in barbarism.
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Dan Powers, Photographer
Appleton | WI | USA | Posted: 9:34 AM on 09.25.12
->> Evan Siegle of the Green Bay Press Gazette has a nice shot...hopefully he will update his page so you can see it.
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 10:31 AM on 09.25.12
->> So.......do you see any corralation in hiring a "professional photographer vs a GWC" & paying "real refs vs faux refs"?
You get what you pay for, but this country is damned and determined to get everything on the cheap, and then try and justify crappy results. Expectations and standards are getting lower everyday.
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
Houston | TX | | Posted: 10:54 AM on 09.25.12
->> @ Sam

That was profound. You nailed it.

Informative, too.
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Frank Niemeir, Photographer
Woodstock | GA | usa | Posted: 11:08 AM on 09.25.12
->> Siegle's shot on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PGevansiegle/status/250467603867385856/photo/1
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Doug McSchooler, Photographer
Avon | Indiana | United States | Posted: 11:17 AM on 09.25.12
->> Am I right in saying that the refs in the review booth are not replacement officials though? So even after review ...

I would imagine that the networks will be the most influential in the NFL's resolution with the officials. And they'll start to care when the advertisers begin to affect their wallets.
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 11:26 AM on 09.25.12
->> @Robert H. — I don't think it's fair to call the replacement refs "bafoons." It's not the referees' fault they collectively have exactly zero years experience officiating in the NFL. They were brought in to do a job so people like you and I could continue to be entertained by guys beating the crap out of each other. If the team owners in the NFL, a sport that grosses about $9 billion annually, would just fork over about $3 million — $93,750 per team — they would get their experienced refs back. Instead they've decided middle school geography teachers and retired insurance salesmen could do their officiating. So ultimately, whose fault is it?
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 11:27 AM on 09.25.12
->> Oops... should be @ Richard H.
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Josh Thompson, Photographer
Ontario | California | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 09.25.12
->> It wasn't a bad call that screwed the Packers last night on the touchdown catch, it was the non call of Golden Tate's blantant push off of the Packers defender on that last play. Tate uses both hands to push off the defender, that's offensive pass interference, penalty to the Seahawks, Packers win the game. The fact that the Packers defender and Golden Tate came down with the ball is irrealavent if the penalty is called on Tate.
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Ric Tapia, Photographer, Photo Editor
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:46 PM on 09.25.12
->> Photos on NFL.com are pretty good:
http://www.nfl.com/photos/09000d5d82b955f5/
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 12:58 PM on 09.25.12
->> Ha-ha
http://tinyurl.com/8c6ojyv
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John Howley, Photographer
Circleville | OH | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 09.25.12
->> In that situation, I doubt the regular refs would have called that pass interference either.

I'd like to see some stills or video from the sideline that would show the approximate angle and view the side judge saw.

Like with the Super Bowl referenced above, a couple of the calls in that game were easy to see that they were wrong when viewed from elevated angles, but when viewed from the same angle as the official, the plays looked like penalties.
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 1:32 PM on 09.25.12
->> I was on the field and all I can say is that through my lens, I witnessed many game changing missed calls on both ends of the ball. As for the final catch, well, I would have had some great shots if it weren't for the line judge moving right in front of me (story of my life).

As to who should have won, it's a toss up. GB's touchdown drive should not have happened due to a wrong 3rd down PI called on Seattle and a 3rd down unsportsman like conduct call on Seattle between Browner and Jennings.

That being said, Seattle's "touchdown" drive also was tainted with bad/missed calls and of course the "touch-reception."

The real frustrating part of the replacement refs incorrectly calling penalties is the fact that we (photographers) might get a great shot of a play, but then it means nothing in telling the story of the game because of a little yellow flag thrown on the turf.
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Rafael Agustin Delgado, Photographer, Assistant
Pasadena | Ca | USA | Posted: 1:56 PM on 09.25.12
->> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/story/2012/09/25/nfl-admits-error-in-sea...

What a joke to the game and a disservice to the players.
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Richard Hurtado, Photographer
Temecula | CA | USA | Posted: 2:13 PM on 09.25.12
->> @ Bradley. It is absolutely the refs fault! If they are not competent in their skills you will get what we had last night. They accepted the job and they must accept the fact (and own it) that they made a bad call that changed the outcome of the came.

When you have one ref signaling TD and the other signaling to stop the clock, it is clearly a display that they are way over their heads. This play has been the talk of ESPN since it ended. There have been retired NFL officials pointing out the fact that the officials were not in the right place to make the call! They arrived in the end zone after the play, when in fact they should have positioned themselves there prior to the play developing.

It's like a sports photographer who shoots baseball. When you have a runner on first and its a situation where he will likely attempt to steal second, that photographer knows what to look for and where he might want to focus. It's proactive NOT reactive!

These officials are in way over there heads and yes it is there fault! They accepted the job, they must accept the blame of making bad calls.
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David Seelig, Photographer
Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 2:55 PM on 09.25.12
->> What the refs should be called are scabs that is what they are.
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
Cheyenne | WY | USA | Posted: 3:10 PM on 09.25.12
->> You know, this was funny at first, but now, I'm sure these replacement refs (who are regular folks like you and me) are now getting hate mail and probably even death threats, and that's not funny at all.

Lets just say for the moment that the regular refs called the game and saw that very play. Would the ouctome be any different? I doubt it. It was ruled a touchdown and there has to be CLEAR evidence to see that ball was intercepted to be overturned.

Maybe someone can help me out on this, but aren't the folks up in the review booth regulars for the NFL, but under a different CBA?
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 3:28 PM on 09.25.12
->> Richard, you're missing the big picture.

The NFL (pressured by team owners) CHOSE to lockout their experienced officials, and CHOSE to hire replacements with absolutely no experience.

Sure, the refs accepted the job. Sure, they need to accept blame for bad calls. But on a fundamental level, this whole shit show is ultimately the NFL's fault, because they made the decisions that brought these overwhelmingly inexperienced referees into the league. It comes down to greedy league owners who would rather have a retired insurance salesman officiate their games before giving up a little bit more money to retain veteran referees. The replacements are undoubtedly working for a lot less, and last night proved you get what you pay for.

Blame the refs all you want for "accepting the job," but the alternative would be no football season at all, and again, NFL owners are willing to settle for crappy officiating than to scrap the entire season. So ultimately, they brought this onto themselves. The replacements are just caught in the middle and, in my opinion, still don't deserve to be called "bafoons."
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Steven Mullensky, Photographer, Photo Editor
Port Townsend | WA. | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 09.25.12
->> I'm with Steve Bisig on this. I had about as good a seat as anyone while watching on the big screen at home and the outcome would have been different, and maybe even the same, had the right calls been made throughout the game.
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Tom Gannam, Photographer
St. Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 09.25.12
->> Although I heartily agree that the officiating is laughable at best, what I find equally disturbing is the number of "photographers" that were in the end zone merely watching the play. I counted at least 4 or 5 that didn't even lift a camera. This is a profession that most of us work very hard at yet we have to share the sidelines with glorified fans making it that much more difficult to do our jobs. Just my opinion.
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Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 4:09 PM on 09.25.12
->> Brad,

The regular refs are part timers. They have other jobs, including if I'm not mistaken teachers, lawyers, business owners and banking executives. In fact wasn't one of the issues having the NFL add more crews so they didn't have to work as many games?

So it is not an issue of bringing in part timers, they were already doing that.

From what I've read what really put the NFL in q bind was the top level NCAA officials turning them down, leaving them to go to the third tier.
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 4:26 PM on 09.25.12
->> @Tom Gannam

Not disagreeing with you, haven't watched the game on TV yet, only from my view on the field. There were a few GWC at the game fist pumping, but there were even more assistants/card runners the last couple of minutes of the game waiting next to the photographers (holding their big glass) for the game to end.

With how crazy the ending was and how many times I rushed the field (at least 3-4 times) I wish I had an assistant/card runner to hold my 400mm.
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 4:35 PM on 09.25.12
->> I think the replacement refs are doing a great job!

Nobody's died yet.

--Mark
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Tod Gomes, Photographer, Assistant
Pleasant Hill | CA | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 09.25.12
->> This game was NOT about one play. The correct call on the last play SHOULD have been offensive Pass Interference. Keep in mind on Green Bay's TD, there was a bad PI call to keep their drive alive (not to mention SEVERAL other bad calls through out the game).
Also keep in mind that the review booth upstairs are the regulars and NOT replacements. Most of the time these calls go against Seattle, this time it did not and because the Seahawks are not a media or fan favorite, there seems to be more uproar than Vinnie's phantom helmet TD or SB 40.
The NFL NEEDS to hire full time officials and send them through training camp just like the players (it's not like they can't afford it).
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 5:18 PM on 09.25.12
->> @Mark P. —

Sure, they're part-time, mainly because football isn't a year-round sport. But I never said the issue was that the replacements are part-timers. The issue is that every single replacement has zero NFL experience and very limited, if any, NCAA experience.
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James Durbin, Photographer
Midland | Texas | USA | Posted: 5:29 PM on 09.25.12
->> Terrible call. It definitely made my Buffalo Wild Wings experiences slightly less pleasurable. I was just as unimpressed with the photog holding his camera to the side and pumping his fist in the background.
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Tom Szczerbowski, Photographer
London | ON | Canada | Posted: 5:57 PM on 09.25.12
->> This wasn't done by a replacement ref :
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3594778
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George Holland, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 6:28 PM on 09.25.12
->> I was shooting from the far hash mark and didn't have as clear of view as most but was asked to put a couple images on my member page of the controversial catch. My images appear to show Golden Tate with his distinctive black gloves grasping the ball while in the air.

What happens after in the scrum I have no idea nor did I get a frame of the pass interference non-call. The controversy around the non-call is understandable if it happened; I didn’t see it. The controversy around the simultaneous catch seems debatable since a still image never lies, except when it does.
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Gerry Melendez, Photographer
Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 09.25.12
->> George,
Even in the detail version of your images you can't really tell whether Tate has both hands on it. Also in the replay he releases one hand to break his fall, while Jennings continues to hold possession. It was a horrible call and not even close to debatable.
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George Holland, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 7:04 PM on 09.25.12
->> Gerry,

Per my previous post, all I can offer is that at one instant, while in the air, it appears to me Golden Tate had both hands on the ball. What happened after that I can’t comment because my view was blocked and I haven’t taken the time to watch any replays.
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 9:43 PM on 09.25.12
->> The bashing of the field refs seems unfair when you look at the massive wad of players around the ball up in the air coming down in a big pile. It's highly unlikely that even being in the proper position anyone without bionic x-ray vision would be able to clearly see what's happening there, and that includes the pass interference that wasn't called.

However, the replay official had the best possible angles from a high vantage point, and it still wasn't perfectly clear.

The replay that overturned a good call of Rodgers being short of a first down was a worse call, since it was more clear cut, and they overturned a call that seemed correct by the field officials.
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Richard Hurtado, Photographer
Temecula | CA | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 09.26.12
->> Bradly, I agree with you 100% about the owners not wanting to give in. All good points.

Tod, you are correct in stating that the call that would have ended the game was missed.

Photographers fist pumping instead of taking photos, bad calls, TV cameramen running into the end zone before the play is over, players not having any respect for the refs and coaches grabbing refs as they run off the field!!!!!!!!!!!

This will undoubtedly be one of the NFL's most memorable seasons and not necessarily for the right reasons!!!!!!!!
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 2:12 PM on 09.26.12
->> Here is a another angle of the "catch" from the endzone.

http://www.q13fox.com/sports/football/seahawks/kcpq-seahawks-capitalize-on-...,0,5401209.story
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 3:35 PM on 09.26.12
->> "Photographers fist pumping instead of taking photos ..."

It's already been said but bears repeating -- pretty sure that dude in the image is an assistant or card runner. Think he was at the Cowboys-Seahawks game working with the latter's team photog.

Maybe one of you Washington shooters knows?
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 09.26.12
->> Not to drag this on anymore, but here is an interesting photo of the last play posted up by Seattle Times.

http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawksblog/2019265422_presented_witho.html?s...
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Jonathan Daniel, Photographer
Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 8:53 PM on 09.26.12
->> Otto Gruele on top of it again!
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:14 PM on 09.26.12
->> I have no dog in this fight, but Josh Thompson is correct - the NFL did admit Tate committed offensive pass interference. That makes the rest of play irrelevant since if it HAD been called, the reception would have disallowed.

Supposedly both sides have made serious progress and this could be settled fairly quickly. A $9B league fighting over what amounts to $3M?

While I get the "we don't want to set a precedent" thing, common sense has left the building. You let your entire business model collapse over bad officiating? How stupid and greedy can you get...?
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Jonathan Daniel, Photographer
Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 10:24 PM on 09.26.12
->> Oh who gives a rats ass? The Packers lost. Nuff said.
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Rod Mar, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 11:22 PM on 09.26.12
->> JD -- I couldn't tell where the loudest cheers were coming from -- Seattle, Chicago or Minnesota.
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Tim Vizer, Photographer
Belleville | IL | USA | Posted: 10:23 AM on 09.27.12
->> I'm sure you've all heard/read this by now, but here it is anyhow:

From the LA Times, AP, etc.....

The deal is done: The regular NFL officials are coming back, according to ProFootballTalk.com.

The NBC-owned webiste cites Jim Daopoulos, a longtime NFL official and supervisor of officials who joined NBC as an analyst this season, as saying the league and the NFL Referees' Assn. have signed a new deal.

The report says a crew is being assembled to work Thursday night's game between the Cleveland Browns and Baltimore Ravens and on Friday the regular officials will travel to Dallas to retrieve their equipment and receive their game assignments for Sunday and Monday. The same crews as last season will be working together this season.

According to a report, the pension issue was resolved with the existing defined-benefit plan remaining in place for five years until the officials are rolled over into a 401(k) plan.
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
Cheyenne | WY | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 09.27.12
->> "The deal is done: The regular NFL officials are coming back, according to ProFootballTalk.com."

Excellent! Now we can start listening to fans bitch about the bad calls the regular refs make!
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Ric Tapia, Photographer, Photo Editor
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 11:12 PM on 09.27.12
->> My view of what happened:

http://thephotobrigade.com/2012/09/packers-at-seahawks-the-replacement-refs.../

Glad the referees are back!
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