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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

ESPN stole my image
Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 12.14.11
->> http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/player-of-the-year/post/_/id/3675/eye-
on-poy-north-carolina-volleyball


anyone have a contact there ?
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

Thomas B. Shea, Photographer
Pearland/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 2:49 PM on 12.14.11
->> I would be very careful before you say ESPN stole my image. Why would they do that? They have plenty of money to pay for images and photographers. I don't think it was the brightest idea to say this on a public forum. Next time you might want to contact them. Use the guide or google to find a contact. Good luck trying to do any work for them ever again, after your post.
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:34 PM on 12.14.11
->> why would they do that ?
hmmmmm.....let me take a wild guess....so they didn't have to pay for it, you think that might be the reason ?
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 3:44 PM on 12.14.11
->> I'm with Randy. There could very well be an honest explanation, and you won't know for sure until you contact them, which you obviously haven't.
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 12.14.11
->> Oops, meant to say I'm with Thomas.
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 12.14.11
->> i'm randy and there is no honest explanation from someone who steals....you guys are funny though....let me guess, you guys work for espn
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Erik Schelkun, Photographer, Photo Editor
Tipp City | OH | USA | Posted: 3:49 PM on 12.14.11
->> Is it possible that the writer asked the contact at the school for an image and the high school provided it not knowing any better? IF that is the case you should be talking with the school...

In the future I would be very careful about calling out MAJOR publications on these boards. You might be suprised how many people read these threads!

Either way, I hope you get this figured out!
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:53 PM on 12.14.11
->> I hope alot of people read it, i hope espn reads it...
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:55 PM on 12.14.11
->> btw the image is only available on my website (heavily watermarked) and for sale on maxpreps (also heavily watermarked) and 1 last place where it is not watermarked, in a maxpreps story, where it was stolen from
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Assistant
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:58 PM on 12.14.11
->> Let me get this straight...

You want to wage war with ESPN over a low res ten dollar volleyball image that normally no one other than you and the girl's parents and best friends will see?

PS. The ESPN_HS email is sitting right there on the bottom of the article.
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 4:03 PM on 12.14.11
->> Ha. Jamey is right. So somehow the image was lifted from Max Preps and given to ESPN. there is always an answer. I would bet that the subject of the story gave them the photo, or maybe, just maybe, they got it from maxpreps. Or from the school. Either way, you are getting bent out of shape over an image with no value. $10 would be a high price. I'm guessing you'll net about $2.50 from this usage. Not that it means its ok to steal, but I'd send a note first before gettign crazy.
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 4:07 PM on 12.14.11
->> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-dQvcum2J4hJ77/the_burbs_1989_acusations/
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Lance King, Photographer
Raleigh | NC | USA | Posted: 4:08 PM on 12.14.11
->> Stealing is a serious allegation. And, coming here and posting this was almost as bad.
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Todd Shurtleff, Photo Editor, Photographer
Cameron Park | Ca | El Dorado | Posted: 4:10 PM on 12.14.11
->> I have to support Randy here! He covered the recent NCHSAA (North Carolina) volleyball championships for us as a freelance photographer and he does own the copyright to this image as it was "taken" from the MaxPreps Web site.

Here is the story on MaxPreps site with his photo - which of course is properly credited:

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/3Q2q3Aj1EeG-rAAmVebEWg/avon,-carroll-fall-in-maxpreps-xcellent-25-national-volleyball-rankings.htm

And here that SAME photo on another sports Web site listed only as "file photo" -

http://espn.go.com/blog/high-school/player-of-the-year/post/_/id/3675/eye-o...

Jamey, so just because it's only a "low res ten dollar volleyball image" it's ok for them to take it without a license and/or permission from the photographer - WOW - I thought we cared about copyrights on this site!

Just for the record, MaxPreps did not give this image to anyone else for use.
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 12.14.11
->> you guys make me laugh

all the pissing and moaning i read here about not charging enough and the trade going to crap and you post this garbage.....

so how much does a pic have to be worth for it to be wrong to steal it....

and lance, your post really wins the award so far, posting that someone stole from me is almost as bad as the actual stealing...

I started this thread looking for an espn contact and to also let you guys know this happened.....obviously my post was a waste of time

I'm done with this thread so you guys can be also
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 4:23 PM on 12.14.11
->> Randy, instead of bitching and moaning, why don't you use the email on the page you linked to and ask them about it. Find out what happened. Ask for your $2.50 and use the opportunity to educate a potential client.
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Matti Matikainen, Photographer
Kirkkonummi | - | Finland | Posted: 4:28 PM on 12.14.11
->> If true, Wellcome to the club Randy

http://kkuukka.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/la-times-et-al-do-you-have-to-suck-.../
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 4:32 PM on 12.14.11
->> Randy, there's an old saying that goes "Sometimes you don't know what you don't know." We get it, someone purloined your photo. I'd be ticked too. But I've been well served in life by trying to get all of the facts before I go "nuclear" on someone. It tends to save a lot of apologizing later on. Perhaps, the ESPN blogger copy-n-pasted it, but I agree that you really need to rule out that it wasn't the player, or one of her parents, or a coach, or her school that swiped it and then sent it to the blogger.
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Lance King, Photographer
Raleigh | NC | USA | Posted: 4:34 PM on 12.14.11
->> Randy, I'm all about protecting copyrights as anyone else. But, this is less about that and more about professionalism. If I think website X has used one of my photos without authorization, I would contact website X. I would NEVER accuse someone of stealing, especially here, without all the facts. I’ve learned you have to be very careful what you say here. As Erik said, a lot of people read these threads.
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 4:40 PM on 12.14.11
->> I'm kind of shocked, no, make that VERY shocked at the attitudes of many towards Randy. Ok, so he didn't go about this the correct way BUT to shrug this off because it's "ESPN over a low res ten dollar volleyball image that normally no one other than you and the girl's parents and best friends will see? " A $10 image today of a ball player no one knows is not the point.
Tsk Tsk
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Tom Ewart, Photographer
Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 4:42 PM on 12.14.11
->> Bradly, Thomas, Eric and Lance,

Anyway ESPN had used this photographer's image without proper compensation or his permission. I believe that to be true. So you guys are OK with this? This is the same type of stance Photographers took when the AP started this whole rights grabbing thing that has sunk the industry. Now staffers who turned there backs on freelancers are being let go to be replaced with freelancers who will give there work away for next to nothing. As a result people don't expect to pay hardly any thing for images, stock or assignment or otherwise. Put yourself in this guys shoes, I'm sure you would be more motivated if it was your work. Letting things slide is what has gotten us in this situation in the first place.

I personally have been replaced by many clients (editorial and others) with photographers or GWC's who just want to be on the sidelines at event I used to make good money photographing. Heck my own camera store cut me by taking a good client that would pay $1,000 a night for photographing fundraising dinners just so they could get those donors to stop by there store and pick up the prints they took--charging my client nothing.

Photo Editors who care about the industry should be more careful.
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Tod Gomes, Photographer
Pleasant Hill | CA | USA | Posted: 4:46 PM on 12.14.11
->> He is asking for a contact at ESPN so he can contact the correct person in the original post (sorry, I do not have one). Why is everyone jumping on him for going through a process of standing up for his copyright?
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 12.14.11
->> I don't think a single person is ok with the image being stolen...that is wrong without a doubt and he has every right to be pissed. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. This would be an example of the wrong way.

The point is that ESPN might not have stolen it knowingly. It might have been the player, or the citizen blogger (if that is what they are) or the school, etc. Could be a million things.

The right way to go about it, is contact the offender and find out what happened and come up with a solution that pleases all parties.

The fact that the value of the image is very small only plays a roll in the regard that some things are not worth getting crazy over. Actually, nothing is work getting crazy over until all other possible amicable solutions have been exhausted.
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Geoff Miller, Photographer
Portage | MI | USA | Posted: 4:52 PM on 12.14.11
->> Tod,

If you take Randy's first post in this thread and change the title to "Someone stole my image" and keep the rest of the post the same (including the link), I doubt anyone would have said "Dude, I wouldn't be saying that if I were you!"
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 5:01 PM on 12.14.11
->> Common sense dictates that you take a deep breath and just make a few phone calls and emails inquiring about the source of the shot. You are assuming that an ESPN photo editor went on your web site or MaxPreps and said "Screw Randy, let's steal his image". C'mon, you know that wasn't the case. Summon some professionalism and maturity and just do some easy fact-finding and I am very sure you'll find out what happened. Your attitude is going to impress them FOR BETTER OR WORSE! At this point you've impressed them in the worst possible way; all things considered at this point, you are going to be the last person they call if they need anyone in your area some day.
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Paul Hayes, Photographer, Photo Editor
Littleton | NH | USA | Posted: 5:06 PM on 12.14.11
->> Randy, your tone in this thread is abominable. You come across as frantic and confrontational. Had you simply posted "My image appeared on ESPN.com without credit or payment. Any idea who I can contact?" you would be getting a far more favorable response here.

That being said, it sounds like you have a legitimate gripe. So contact ESPN.com via phone or email. Calmly lay out your grievance, ask for an explanation and request compensation. If THAT doesn't work then seek advice from other photographers here. Preferably using correct grammar and a slightly less belligerent tone.
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Randy Rimland, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 5:12 PM on 12.14.11
->> my tone ?

read my original post


anyway, does anyone know how to delete this mess ?
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 5:12 PM on 12.14.11
->> Here is the problem...as a good friend used to tell me...

Two bulls are standing on a hill and they see a bunch of cows in the distance. So the one young bull says to the older one, "Hey, why don't we run down the hill and..."

I think everyone knows the rest of this. The point is that copyrights are important, but so are work ethic, professionalism, work product and establishing good working relationships.

If ESPN did "steal" the image, that is on them. If the image is registered with the copyright office, they could be on the hook for BIG $$$$$$. If not, then not so much. Either way it would be wrong for them to have stolen the image.

Suppose they have some kind of a relationship to get the image that you don't know about Randy? Suppose the writer is a freelancer and he lifted the image?

Honestly, Randy, I have no idea how ESPN got the image, but you just called out a whole organization, an organization with institutional memory. So, hey, you might get $25, or $250 or whatever out of them, but a whole host of potential editors in your future have read this thread. Some of them might not like how this whole thing was handled in a "shoot first, ask questions later" fashion.

You might make a few pennies out of this, but you might have stepped over dollars to get to those pennies. Just a thought...and also a lesson I have learned by jumping the gun myself only finding out later a few simple questions on the front end might have saved me from looking like a huge jackass. I have a tendency to end up looking like a gigantic burro - maybe I did here.
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Richard Wolowicz, Photographer
Montreal | QC | Canada | Posted: 5:18 PM on 12.14.11
->> Randy Rimland wrote: "anyone have a contact there ?"

Jamey Price replied: "The ESPN_HS email is sitting right there on the bottom of the article."

That's worth the $25 a year right there ... PRICELESS !
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Preston Mack, Photographer
Orlando | FL | | Posted: 5:34 PM on 12.14.11
->> Success or failure in business is caused more by the mental attitude even than by mental capacities.

Walter Scott
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
Atlanta | Ga | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 12.14.11
->> A few years back, I discovered one of my images on a sports site. I emailed the owner of the site and told him if he wanted to use it, he would have to pay. He took it down right away.
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Michael Granse, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 5:48 PM on 12.14.11
->> The best way to delete such a mess is not to create the mess in the first place.
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 5:52 PM on 12.14.11
->> "anyway, does anyone know how to delete this mess ?"

Nope -- there isn't any. Sorry, that's the beauty of the Internet. Years from now -- decades, maybe centuries or eons ... if our robot overlords allow it -- folks will be able to see how you handled this.

Like others have said, bummer your image got jacked. I would definitely follow up with ESPN and try to see what happened.

But getting apoplectic (and pretty indignant at times) on a public message board? That's the real "Tsk Tsk" if you ask me.

- gerry -
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 5:55 PM on 12.14.11
->> and once again this forum implodes upon itself.....
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Steve Boyle, Photographer
Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 6:14 PM on 12.14.11
->> It's in the guide on this site...

http://www.sportsshooter.com/theguide.html?action=view&type=place&id=3175
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Randy Sartin, Photographer, Assistant
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 12.14.11
->> I had this long response all typed out but I can sum it all up real easy...

It absolutely amazes me how some folks go about doing business :)
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 7:58 PM on 12.14.11
->> Hey, on the bright side, you didn't have to buy an itchy ESPN shirt for 20 bucks first...
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
Sheridan | WY | USA | Posted: 8:34 PM on 12.14.11
->> "my tone ?

read my original post"

You're tone in your original post sounded pretty civil to me, but the title of your thread is very damning and could very well burned a bridge.

Cooler heads prevail. Maybe next time if someone steals an image of yours (whether it's a nickle or ten grand, theft is theft) you'll step back, cool your jets and investigate another situation before accusing someone, especially on a public forum, of theft when it could have very well been a simple oversight.

In the meantime, you made your bed, now you got to lay in it.
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Jeff Gammons, Student/Intern, Photographer
Niceville | Fl | USA | Posted: 8:53 PM on 12.14.11
->> " anyway, does anyone know how to delete this mess? "

ctrl+z ctrl+z !!!!!!!!!!

Oops, too late...
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Keith Coward, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 9:32 PM on 12.14.11
->> Well....I certainly learned a valuable lesson after reading 30 some replies to a thread that only needed one reply. If I ever have anyone STEAL one of my images, the last place I'll come for help is ss.com. With all of the stringers, staffers, and freelancers on this forum, I'm surprised so many immediately decided Randy had made a mistake.

Randy's been given lots of advice albeit very little useful, but lots just the same. And god...the piling on....how many ss.com members does it take to say the same thing? I suppose getting it from coast to coast makes it more special and meaningful?

Looks to me like he had the same thought process most people have when they realize some of their personal property has been stolen. Last time someone took something of mine, the first thoughts I had were not about political correctness.

Props to the MaxPreps guys for taking Randy's side. They're good folks.

Oh....and Happy Holidays to everyone.
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Butch Miller, Photographer
Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 9:44 PM on 12.14.11
->> I am bookmarking this thread as a point of reference for future consideration ... as time passes, should another thread about an entity who has "stolen" an image absent the first four letters of the title of this thread ... I will compare the responses to see if those four letters had more influence on the comments/advice offered than the situation itself. Should be interesting to see what transpires.
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James Broome, Photographer
Tampa | FL | US | Posted: 9:47 PM on 12.14.11
->> I didn't see too many people tell Randy he had made a mistake. I saw a lot of people ask him to perform some due diligence to get more information before assuming malice on the part of ESPN. Pretty darned good advice.
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Charley Starr, Photographer, Photo Editor
Ketchikan | AK | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 12.14.11
->> You would think by now the folks at ESPN would know enough about copyright that they would ask where the image came from and who owns the rights. They are guilty of using a stolen image. I would think they would check on the origin if the picture were to be used on the cover but a $10 image isn't worth the trouble...I wonder where the line is? But lets not worry about the real issue and just ream Randy for being pissed that his image was used without his permission.
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Richard Wolowicz, Photographer
Montreal | QC | Canada | Posted: 9:59 PM on 12.14.11
->> I so wanted to not read this again but, it's driving by a wreck and having to look.

Calling out a global media outlet and accusing them of theft on a public forum is just crazy. Mr.Coward ... to equate this to:

"he had the same thought process most people have when they realize some of their personal property has been stolen. Last time someone took something of mine, the first thoughts I had were not about political correctness."

is almost as crazy.

I think every photographer here has at 1 time in their careers had an image of theirs used without permission ... I know I have and yes, I had the same sh!t feeling when it happened. Did I come here and call them thieves or make accusations without first inquiring .... no.

Because I had nothing better to do tonight ... I googled "copyright theft" and came up with the following:

"Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as "theft". In copyright law, infringement does not refer to actual theft, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.[5] Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that "...interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright... 'an infringer of the copyright.'" In the case of copyright infringement the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law is invaded, i.e. exclusive rights, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held"

I'm no lawyer but, calling accusing someone or a company of theft in public, might open the door to some kind of legal action. Call him an "infringer" ... whatever ... I don't think thief/theft of anything like it is appropriate.


Like I said ... I'm no lawyer, just some dumb canuck that has no idea how American law works so ... flame away if you feel the need to.

Wolo
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:25 PM on 12.14.11
->> @Tom Ewart-

Give me a break.

I mean, really, give me a break.

All I (and Thomas, Eric and Lance, et al) were saying, was to contact ESPN and find out the situation BEFORE accusing them of stealing. Period. That doesn't mean we're OK with stealing. That's just the professional thing to do.

So quit with the ranting, take a step back, take a deep breath, and get some freaking perspective.

Sheesh.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer, Photo Editor
PLANET | EARTH | | Posted: 11:15 PM on 12.14.11
->> "anyway, does anyone know how to delete this mess ?"
ooops! that's why you shouldn't fire off a message like this. personally I find it hilarious that a lot of posters attacked people who found a problem with randy's post. the problem wasn't the post it was the title. strong words. strong response. ESPN STOLE MY IMAGE. that my friends is NOT smart or the way to go abiut being a successful business person. it has nothing to do with it being ESPN it has to do with calling anyone a thief. would you like that? as a person? I think not.
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 11:20 PM on 12.14.11
->> I'm so pissed off I actually let myself read through this thread.

I was going to offer some insight on how to recoup the $2 but you seem pretty hellbent but your attitude egregiously maligned without warrant.

So I'll leave you with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXVsBfWzJjM&feature=related
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 11:24 PM on 12.14.11
->> http://vimeo.com/33046409
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Randy Sartin, Photographer, Assistant
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 11:34 PM on 12.14.11
->> I may not agree with everything Mr. Chuck L. says, but I'm really close to driving across the mountain and buying him a cheap lunch... :)

You (We) need to be really careful before we (You) accuse anyone of stealing anything...that "stealing" part is a big part of this.

It's not like this is some obscure little blog, it's VERY easy to find out who to call/email/send the carrier pigeon to/etc. to get just a little more info before calling them out here.

I dunno, just all seems a weird way of going about it all, keenly interested in the outcome.
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Josh Peckler, Photographer
Yuma | AZ | | Posted: 11:41 PM on 12.14.11
->> Hopefully this will be the last post on this matter!!
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