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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Shooting Sports w/ a Full Frame Camera
Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 11.06.11
->> Like to get some thoughts relative to the new 1DX. What impact (plus / minus) will this full frame camera have on long lenses like the 2.8L 400 shooting field sports compared to 1.3 crop bodies (Mark III, IV) that I've been using. Do you use a TC and loose a stop to make up for the focal distance? Do you add a 600mm to your shopping cart? Crop hard since there's more resolution?

I know the math side ... just looking for thoughts from those with experience shooting FF and long glass (aka Nikon shooters).

Thanks!
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Randy Sartin, Photographer, Assistant
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 5:13 PM on 11.06.11
->> Here's a discussion on just that topic :)

http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=39039
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Assistant
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 9:02 PM on 11.06.11
->> I wouldn't trade my full frame bodies for anything.
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:34 PM on 11.06.11
->> Keep one of your crop bodies. My Nikon D300 gets used occasionally - I don't think you'll miss it after a while.
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Tim Fuller, Photographer, Student/Intern
Troy | MI | USA | Posted: 11:08 PM on 11.06.11
->> I shoot Nikon and almost always go to the full frame!
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Kent Nishimura, Student/Intern, Photographer
Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 2:07 AM on 11.07.11
->> i shoot high school football with 2x 5D mk2 and a Olympus OM 250mm f/2 with 1.4x extender + a OM to EF adapter.

Manual focus!!!
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
Boise | ID | US | Posted: 2:30 AM on 11.07.11
->> That is some nice DOF, Kent.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:02 AM on 11.07.11
->> Kevin, it's a camera and lens. adapt. what does it matter? math? nope. do you like the longer reach with a cropped body? or do you not? that's the basic question. I still struggle with this "non-issue".
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 6:17 AM on 11.07.11
->> Chuck, it matters because I've never used a full frame camera and it looks like Canon has moved away from a cropped body in their pro camera line-up. While I agree that it's only a camera and a lens and I should adapt, I don't agree that it's a non-issue.

While the link that Randy provided started out with good intentions, it seemed to de-rail somewhat over the cost of the new 1DX, who could afford upgrading, or a technical debate over sensors. Only a few folks weighed in on the question and even fewer as it related to how they adapt on the longer side of the lens.

Guess my "real issue" is what the cost of adapting will be. I know your feet are free but if it causes you to move into a restricted area or to move in closer and increase the risk of personal injury it's no longer free.

Using a teleconverter is less costly. However, shooting a night time football game or soccer match at f4 or f5.6 might erase the value of higher ISO and may also slow down AF performance. To a degree, buying a f4 600 may have some of the same cost issues as a TC but with the added cost of a $10,000 purchase price.

Again, I'm still in the camera-lens-adapt camp. Just looking for thoughts, ideas, suggestions on how experienced FF sports shooters are, in fact, adapting on the longer side of the lens.
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 6:37 AM on 11.07.11
->> Kevin,

It sounds like you may be over-thinking this. Just crop the image a little and everything will work out fine... trust me.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 6:54 AM on 11.07.11
->> Also, I didn't ask, "FF or Crop Sensor...which is better?" or "Let's Vote... Who uses FF only?"

And, why on earth would would anyone consider manual focus on a $6,800 camera mounted to a $12,000 lens? That's like buying a BMW without power stearing because it uses a Chevy S10 truck tansmission that isn't fully compatible.

Sorry to be a jerk. Maybe asking this pointed question wasn't such a good idea after all.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 7:22 AM on 11.07.11
->> Brian -- Is it really that simple. Making up 30% is more than a little. Won't you loose the shallow DOF because you are not shooting tight enough? I've seen what a heavy crop looks like out of a 1.3 cropped body and typically stay away from it unless it's absolutley necessary.

BTW... you are spot on about me overthinking. I tend to do that from time to time particularly when I don't have any experience (in this case.. shooting sports with a FF camera). Guess it's better than not thinking at all.
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Tim Cowie, Photographer
Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 8:21 AM on 11.07.11
->> Let's assume you buy a Nikon D3. You can shoot full frame all day long or you can hit a button and go to 1.5x DX crop mode. Don't understand the question completely. If you have Nikon you can shoot both ways without giving up ISO or AF performance.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 8:31 AM on 11.07.11
->> Tim --

I'm a Canon shooter so I don't pay much attention to what Nikon cameras have to offer. Thanks for pointing this out to me. Does this feature also change what you see through the lens as well?

Thanks!
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 8:36 AM on 11.07.11
->> Kevin,

I'm not much of a "gear head" so I can't speak to all of the technical garbage, but when you were shooting with a 1.3 crop body your lens wasn't any "longer" per se. So my understanding is that the sensor just "cropped" the image that the glass was producing irrespective of what sensor that image was falling on.

I switched from the Canon 1D MK--- bodies with their 1.3x crop factor to the full frame Nikon D3 series bodies and never noticed noticed a difference when shooting the same focal lengths.

Kevin, really, it's about the "moment" anyway. People who spend too much time obsessing over all this technical garbage tend not to "get it". I'm not saying that's the situation in your case but if you're noticing the little minor technical issues in your images then you may be missing the moment.

Bottom Line: Less Technical Talk + More Clicky Click = Better Photographer.

If you really need to delve into it further I'm almost certain there's a heated 56 page thread over at another on-line forum that debates this in painful detail... mainly participated in by guys who take photos of their cats with $50k worth of showroom-pretty gear.
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Radu Rosca, Photographer
Tirgu Mures | MS | Romania | Posted: 8:45 AM on 11.07.11
->> The only difference is that on a 1.3 body you keep the original resolution while on a FF body, you lose some megapixels IF you decide to make a post crop. Focal length remains basically the same..
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Jim Colburn, Photographer, Photo Editor
Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 9:08 AM on 11.07.11
->> "What impact (plus / minus)..."

None. If you get a camera body with a larger sensor then just crop your image until it looks right. No biggie, photographers have been doing it for more than a century.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 9:19 AM on 11.07.11
->> Brian --

Thanks for your additional thoughts. I'm not a gear head at all and try to stay focused on the job at hand. Also, I couldn't agree more with your bottom line.

It's good to know that you have experienced no noticable difference when you switched from a 1.3 to FF sensor when shooting longer fixed glass and just crop down a little if needed.

Again, thanks for your time and your feedback.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 11.07.11
->> Jim -

Well between you, Brian, and Chuck (three trusted sources)it's becoming clearer to what the answer to my question really is... Crop and don't worry about it.

Back to Clicky Click.

Thanks!
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:12 AM on 11.07.11
->> "Won't you loose the shallow DOF because you are not shooting tight enough?"

I'll say this one more time: A crop sensor DOES NOT change the actual focal length of your lens. Resolution aside, shooting with a crop sensor IS EXACTLY THE SAME as shooting with a full-frame sensor and cropping the image. You WILL NOT see a difference in DOF on a crop sensor.

With the high-resolutions of the new cameras, you can just shoot full-frame and just crop the image and have a file of more than sufficient resolution for a majority of applications.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 11:01 AM on 11.07.11
->> Thanks, Bradley.
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Gregory Greene, Photographer
Durham | NH | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 11.07.11
->> The crop factor has nothing to do at all with having extra
reach. Pixel Density alone is responsible for that. The
only thing a crop camera affects is FOV so your wide angle
lenses are not as wide as they are on FF cameras. This also
affects DOF given the same exact framing.

As a Canon shooter keeping a 1D4 or 7D around makes a lot of
sense if you can't afford the super tele's and find yourself
in a FL limited situation a lot of times. Further more you
will be carrying around a lot less weight as well.

From a 1D perspective I think the 1DX compliments the 1D4 not
replace it. Too bad Canon doesn't think the same way.

If you can afford the 1DX plus the new lighter super tele's
then it's a no brainer. The best of both worlds.
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 11.07.11
->> Frankly, until roughly 12 years ago, we all shot all sports, news, features, portraits, sunsets, weddings, etc. full frame and everyone got along just fine.

I think the work of many people including Leifer, Peskin, Iooss, et al, in the pre-crop sensor age holds up pretty damn well to what is being done today. Actually in the case of some of those, such as Peskin, the 6x6 and 4x5 age holds up well to today.

Oh, and I think pretty much anything Ansel Adams shot with a non-crop factor 8x10 view camera meets or beats pretty much any landscape work done today on crop- or full-sensor cameras.

You use your tools and you get used to it and you make good images. Simple as that.


:-)
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Gregory Greene, Photographer
Durham | NH | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 11.07.11
->> You will see a difference in DOF on a crop body if you keep
the same framing. Ask portrait photographers what they think
about that.
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 11:58 AM on 11.07.11
->> @Gregory - yes, DOF will change if you keep the same framing. That's because you need to be closer to your subject with a full-frame sensor to fill the frame. Changing the distance from the subject will affect DOF.

All things being equal — for instance, if your aperture and distance from the subject stay the same — you won't see a difference in DOF.
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Thread Title: Shooting Sports w/ a Full Frame Camera
Thread Started By: Kevin Krows
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