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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Baseball Photographers - Save all or only the best
Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 2:40 PM on 07.04.11
->> I have always saved all but the obvious out of focus, poor exposure shots. However, this year is the first year shooting a lot of MLB games and I am finding that I am filling up my external drives pretty quickly. For you regular baseball photographers, do you save all shots from a game, or only the deadline/stock images and trash the rest?

I shoot jpg.

Happy 4th!
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Matt Brown, Photographer
Fullerton | CA | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 07.04.11
->> You save it all, it's the price of business. You never know what someone will want in 6 months or 3 three years. Ask Dirck Halstead about saving images. You should be shooting RAW. A jpg is evil, they do nothing for you.
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Mark Goldman, Photographer
Silver Spring | MD | USA | Posted: 12:32 AM on 07.05.11
->> Save them all. There is stuff I shot years ago that I thought was "my best" at the time and now would not even go out. Conversely, there are images that I come across, that I did not think were "my best" and turned out to not only be pretty good, but sell pretty well. Tastes your eye will continue to change and evolve over time.

And just remember that famous old adage: "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one."
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 8:51 AM on 07.05.11
->> Over the weekend I spent some time looking for the photo of a young woman I photographed three years ago... she was killed in an automobile accident last Thursday.

I photographed her in a school musical in 2008. She was not one of the stars of the performance but she did have a solid supporting role. I did not submit any photos of her for the original assignment but I did archive those RAW images and I was able to go back and find some good ones of her.

That was the second time in two weeks that I went back to find photos in my archives of people who had passed away. Neither subject was worthy of submission for the original assignment. But, one photo was used by three papers in our chain (two on the front pages), and I have offered the other one to the family for their personal use. The photos are on my Facebook page along with additional details in case anyone wants to see them.

I would guess you are sitting on some soon-to-be-valuable MLB images in your archives too. You never know what news value those players will have in the following days, weeks, or seasons.
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Tim Vizer, Photographer
Belleville | IL | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 07.05.11
->> Save everything, and shoot RAW as Matt says. I agree with the others, too --- you never know what somebody may want. Also, make sure you are adequately archiving all those images. I won't go into all that here, since there have been other threads about various archiving methods and philosophies. Shoot time is just part of the investment in the overall procedure. Position yourself for future sales.
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 11:03 AM on 07.05.11
->> Thanks for the responses. I have only been shooting jpg for ease of transmitting. I guess its time to start shooing raw+jpg and archiving ALL the raw images.

Hope everyone had a good 4th of July and still have your shutter finger. Cheers!

steven b~
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:54 AM on 07.05.11
->> As everyone has said, you never know when a photo of the rarely playing, utility infielder high-fiving a teammate at the plate after serving as a pinch-runner in the bottom of the ninth will be the player who is suspended for life for a drug problem and that will be the only pic folks have of him and it sells big.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:11 PM on 07.05.11
->> I'm going to buck the trend here. Shooting RAW? I call bullshit on that. When I'm shooting deadline games at 9 PM with my Mark IV's the 45 meg jpg files are fine for anyone who might want to buy them down the road. do I delete photos? no. but do I have time to download a massive amount of RAW files? definitely NOT. but that's just me.
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Jason Jump, Photographer
Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 10:29 PM on 07.05.11
->> Yeah I don't shoot raw, but I have almost every photo that I've snapped since 2003 when I started.
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David G. McIntyre, Photographer
Beijing | . | CHINA | Posted: 5:40 AM on 07.06.11
->> I agree with Chuck. I shoot JPG 99.9 percent of the time. The file size of the Mark IV is fine. I use Fred Miranda software to make larger photos if needed.

Many times I find people (art directors) don't even understand the ratio's of a 300 dpi photo vs. a 200 dpi photo if all the parameters still make a 45mb image. They look at the information, and have no idea what it means, just what they have been told they need.
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David Harpe, Photographer
Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 9:29 AM on 07.06.11
->> RAW vs JPEG

When I don't need a huge number of frames in a row at a high frame rate, I shoot both RAW and JPEG into separate cards. The JPEGs are used in the field for transmit, the RAW files are for archive. Cards are cheap these days, so it's no big deal to load a big card into slot 1 for the raw files (maybe a 32Gb), a smaller card in slot 2 for the jpegs (a 16 or an 8).

RAW files are FAR better for you in the long run. Your camera shoots 14-bit color with a very wide gamut. The RAW file format preserves every single bit of that information, and you can access every bit of that information using a 16-bit, ProPhoto RGB workflow in Photoshop. It is the closest thing we have to a negative in a digital workflow.

You shoot JPEG only and you're throwing a ton of data away in the field - 14-bits-per-channel down to 8bpc, full gamut to AdobeRGB - and you can't get it back. Doing a print and want those greens to really pop? Sure hope you like your in camera contrast and saturation settings, 'cause you're stuck with them. Blow out a channel and you get a green blob instead of nice crisp blades of grass. No way to get it right no matter how many photoshop tricks you use 'cause the data just ain't there anymore. Miss on that white balance with the sky or some other smooth gradient in the shot? Good luck. Try to fix it in photoshop with an 8-bit jpeg and you get banding and all sorts of nastiness. With RAW you have much more information to work with in those situations. RAW is a "negative", JPEG is a "print".

There are two in-the-field penalties for shooting RAW+JPEG: More storage required and fewer number of sequential frames. Storage should NOT be a factor these days. Large cards - even high speed cards - are cheap for what you get. Hard drive storage is even more ridiculously cheap - a hundred bucks gets you TERABYTES. Storage should not be a factor.

RAW+JPEG eats up your frame buffer very quickly for obvious reasons. If your camera has a buffer upgrade available you can improve this somewhat, and high speed cards help minimize the time to next frame once you do fill the buffer. But you will run out of frames quicker shooting RAW or RAW+JPEG, no question. If you need to burn away at 9fps for three or four seconds you should probably consider shooting jpeg only for those moments.

But that still leaves a TON of other situations where you can shoot RAW+JPEG with no penalty: portraits, pregame color, post-game jube, press conference, etc. Nice to have a big fat file with all of the color information just in case you have a white balance issue or under/overexpose inadvertently, or just have a tough high-contrast setup to deal with. If you shoot RAW+JPEG you still have the flexibility of a small file JPEG for transmitting on deadline.

You paid good money for that 14-bit-per-channel chip in your camera. Why not get the most out of it?
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Angus Mordant, Student/Intern
Sydney | NSW Australia | Australia | Posted: 1:07 PM on 07.06.11
->> 45 Mb JPG from a MkIV? My MkIV RAW files are only around 22 Mb!
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Butch Miller, Photographer
Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 1:32 PM on 07.06.11
->> I'm an Old School guy ... once we invested into film and processing, it was rather obvious to retain all our negatives, slides and the best prints ...

I just received this email over the weekend from a father of one of my son's schoolmates ...

"I believe my late son Eric XXXXX wrestled and played football with your son at XXX. I would be interested in any photos of Eric that you might have in your archives. He played varsity football 96,97,&98 and was always number 55 from pop warner thru varsity.
thank you, "

It's times like these that I am relieved that I am a pack rat ... all that annoyance and inconvenience is well spent ... not just to make a few bucks ... but as a father ... I can relate to this fellow's request and know how elated I would be if the shoe were on the other foot ...

Not to mention several of the kids I have followed as youths and high schoolers have went on to become D1 college players and even a few in the pros ... as well as politicians, etc. ... It's a pain in the butt ... but ... it can be worth the effort to retain that which you captured ...
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 3:46 AM on 07.07.11
->> I shoot RAW+JPEG on separate cards. JPEG's (SD card) are my backup files in the event the CF Card fails. I process the RAW files into a "baseline" JPEG which I like much better than the in-camera JPEG's. I don't retain the RAW after processing.

Lightroom makes the task of processing RAW pretty easy using presets. I have presets for the locations I shoot and various lighting conditions. I apply the preset and tweek from there. I actually find processing a RAW file much easier than than an in-camera JPEG.

The only time I keep RAW files is when I shoot portraits, comemrical shoots, or when the client requests it. I only shoot one event a year "all JPEG". The client, in this case, has requested it in the scope of work.
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Radu Rosca, Photographer
Tirgu Mures | MS | Romania | Posted: 8:46 AM on 07.08.11
->> My workflow goes like this. After i download all the files on a specific folder, i upload them to lightroom and flag everything i feel is usable. Then i make a filter on flagged photos and start adding stars and other filters.
In the end, i can filter images from all the folders that are unflagged and unmodified. Most of the times, those are the images that i don't think i'll ever use anywhere so they go to straight the recycle bin.
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Michael Granse, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 9:47 AM on 07.08.11
->> You should shoot RAW and save 'em ALL. At $50 per photograph regardless of position or size, you might be sitting on a gold mine in ten years. A GOLD MINE!!!
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Andrew Richardson, Student/Intern, Photographer
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 11:52 PM on 07.08.11
->> I guess I'm in the middle, say I transmit 20 images, after the game I'll tag another 20+ that were good but not immediate-upload worthy. I end up saving about 100-125 shots per game.
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Jock Fistick, Photographer
Brussels | Belgium | | Posted: 2:15 AM on 07.09.11
->> Maybe I am missing something here - but I cover my fare share of deadline news where I have to file on location - and in my experience - with the speed of Lightroom - I find very little difference in the time it takes between processing a RAW file vs a JPG file - so I see no need to shoot RAW + JPG. I shoot RAW only and if I need to send a file ASAP without processing the file first - I can simply send straight from photomechanic - which will either render the RAW file on the fly - or use the embedded JPG preview - depending on your PM preference settings.

Point being I see no need to shoot RAW + JPG and for those who shoot JPG only - I see no real time savings beyond the ingest process - but I do see a potentially high risk of loss in quality - or lost frames and maybe THE frame - due to a bad exposure or white balance issue - which could be corrected if the image was made in RAW. But to each his own! :-)
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Michael Durisseau, Photographer, Assistant
Santa Fe/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 4:02 PM on 07.09.11
->> I save everything...and shoot RAW+jpg on my IIN.
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Denny Kyser, Photographer
Russell | Pa. | United States of America | Posted: 10:07 AM on 07.12.11
->> Great thread I also shoot Raw to 1 card and jpeg to the other.

For me, I just get better images converting raw to jpeg then just shooting Jpeg.
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Alan Sanders, Photographer
Dublin | Ga | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 12.22.11
->> While shooting sports I have been shooting raw+jpg. After testing out some of my shots I realized how much better the quality is with raw. I still shoot raw+jpg, however I have not used a jpg in months, so I'm leaning towards shooting raw only. Just my opinion.
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Frank Niemeir, Photographer
Woodstock | GA | usa | Posted: 5:25 PM on 12.22.11
->> jpg = 256 colors. RAW = 16 million colors.
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 5:45 PM on 12.22.11
->> Is that accurate Frank?

GIG is limited to 256 colors, but JPG?


"JPEG files embed an ICC color profile (color space). Commonly used color profiles include sRGB and Adobe RGB which are often 24 bit (16 million colors)

Read more:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_colors_can_a_GIF_and_JPEG_image_contain#..."
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Steven Bisig, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 6:07 PM on 12.22.11
->> Since I started this thread, I since picked up a few more 16GB cards. I shoot raw+jpg and once I am done transmitting deadline and stock, I dump all the JPGs and archive only the raws.
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Gregory Greene, Photographer
Durham | NH | USA | Posted: 9:49 AM on 12.23.11
->> Total color depth for JPEG is 16M colors. 12 bit RAW would be 68B colors. Unless Frank was talking about per color channel but then RAW would be 4096 if that was the case.
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Richard Miyara, Photographer
Bow | NH | United States | Posted: 5:23 PM on 12.28.11
->> Interesting discussion. First I should note that I shoot raw only, cull out any shots that are just not up to par, and then convert to jpg only those that I need to "share" in some form. I archive both the original and converted jpgs. However I recently came across this article and thought some might find it at least interesting.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/raw.htm

As a computer geek, I agree with the article that with raw files you run the risk of someday not being able to convert them, but... I feel the quality and flexibility of raw far outweighs that concern.
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
Coram | NY | USA | Posted: 5:35 PM on 12.28.11
->> RAW vs. JPG debate is meaningless. We should be discussing more important things like Canon vs. Nikon.
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Thread Title: Baseball Photographers - Save all or only the best
Thread Started By: Steven Bisig
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