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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

GWC Quote of the Year
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 4:44 PM on 06.27.11
->> Well today just gets better and better. After receiving an email which I started another thread about. I get an email from a friend while they're working a gig and get told this. Random GWC walks up to my friend and makes the usual idiotic comments...wow big lens yada yada yada...then he goes into this speech (unsolicited I might add) which ends with..."I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PUTTING FOOD ON THE TABLE, THEREFORE I CAN DO THIS FOR FREE".
wow, really? what a friggin' douche bag.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (3) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Harrison Shull, Photographer
Fayetteville, WV | Asheville, NC | | Posted: 4:53 PM on 06.27.11
->> That is the very definition of a GWC is it not??

I have heard that - or a variation of that - so many times that it is like background noise.

Move along, nothing to see here.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
Salisbury | NC | USA | Posted: 5:22 PM on 06.27.11
->> Maybe we need to add "DWC" to the vernacular.
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
Houston | TX | | Posted: 5:29 PM on 06.27.11
->> Maybe it would be better to assign the label: AWC ( a$$hole with camera.)
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Jim Owens, Photographer
Cincinnati | OH | usa | Posted: 6:12 PM on 06.27.11
->> He might as well have said : I don't have to worry about putting food on the table because I'm here to take the food off of YOUR table !
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

David Minton, Photographer, Student/Intern
Denton | TX | USA | Posted: 8:15 AM on 06.28.11
->> "Free you say? Well, when I have to sell my table and eat ramen noodles on the floor, I'll always think of you."
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Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer
Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 11:15 AM on 06.28.11
->> What's even worse is when you get out-bid for a big job by $8,000... yes, you're reading that right. I bid $8500 to do a job and this supposedly professional photographer in our valley gave a bid of $500 for the same job, I think to get her name out there.
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Caleb Raney, Photographer, Assistant
Shawnee | OK | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 06.28.11
->> "I think to get her name out there."

Not to entirely hijack the thread, but I think this idea is one of the greatest evils foisted upon the young or emerging photographers out there. I put myself firmly in that group still. I did jobs cheap, I did jobs free, and it certainly did get my name out there. With a little Post-It attached that said, "This is the Cheap Guy." A cautionary tale that I should have know better to avoid, having read this board for years before I joined. Once you're "The Cheap Guy." You'll always be the cheap guy.

Just my $.02
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 4:44 PM on 06.28.11
->> Richard-

Last week I bid $22,000 to shoot corporate headshots for a Chicago based company and lost out.

The winning bid? $2000 for 4-5 days of shooting plus retouching and delivery of the images.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Brett Clark, Photographer
Elizabeth City | NC | USA | Posted: 6:49 PM on 06.28.11
->> Man I was having a good day feeling like my future in photography was going somewhere, despite a recent wreck that resulted in broken arm, ankle fracture and no more car, now metal in both arm and ankle. So I'm on short-term disability, but was feeling hopeful, you guys stories sure knocked me down quick, well as long as I can find a car, I'll have a job so it's not too bad. I'm mostly kidding, but these stories worry me.
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Thomas Campbell, Photographer
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 7:42 PM on 06.28.11
->> This week I scored a gig in Washington for $500 and in Chicago for $2k. I'm getting paid to travel and snap pictures.

Life is good. What else could you ask for?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (21) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Gil Batzri, Photographer, Assistant
Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 1:23 AM on 06.29.11
->> Delane, do you even feel bad about losing that gig? Wow.
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:03 AM on 06.29.11
->> I'm going to assume that the Chicago $2K job references by both Delane and Thomas are purely coincidental... But if not, I guess I just stirred the pot.
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Brad Camp, Photographer
Bainbridge Island | wa | USA | Posted: 10:11 AM on 06.29.11
->> My GWC guy was a microsoft sales guy--nice enough and all, until he got laid off.
Now he is doing free photos for the chamber, port, local wedding hotspot and now he is doing free assignments for the local weekly--
These 'were' low volume clients for me, but just makes me cranky--its one thing to try and get your name out, but just being the free guy in town is a really bad business model.

The upshot is, one of these old clients (the paper) is calling again, because I have that 'journalistic' approach.
ya-think...
ok--packing to head to the Mariners game now :)
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Michael Fischer, Photographer
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 11:34 AM on 06.29.11
->> These stories started right after the first caveman that drew on walls got done. It will also be so. There will always be morons out there. Heck I just talked to one.I wanted to reach through the phone and strangle the b*tch. However, I was reasonably professional and dealt with it.

Vent if you need to but then move on. The only ones dumber than them are the people that use them.

Delane, I'm really sorry to hear about that piece of business but if they are THAT stupid, wish em luck. Something tells me that they will need it before it's over.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Michael Granse, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 11:39 AM on 06.29.11
->> People who do this for free become an excellent source for gently used equipment.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (5) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matthew Jonas, Photo Editor, Photographer
Evergreen | CO | USA | Posted: 11:52 AM on 06.29.11
->> Michael Granse, +1 for that! Half my equipment was probably purchased from GWCs for half what it cost brand new that year.
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Andrew Spear, Photographer, Assistant
Athens | OH | United States | Posted: 1:36 PM on 06.29.11
->> Yep, I just put together a quote for a small advertising job with an Art Director at a corporation on the other side of the country. After a week or two of talks to get exactly what they were looking for, I hit them with $5,000 and didn't get a reply. It was brochure, tradeshow, website, etc and 1 day of shooting.

3 days later, reached back out to them and they told me they were looking to spend $400.
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 4:35 PM on 06.29.11
->> Jon...I think Thomas was joking...he has 16 "Funnies" right now. Otherwise I just got punked...
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 5:45 PM on 06.29.11
->> Andrew,
A fair question to ask in any selling situation is "roughly what kind of budget do we have.."? By using the word roughly you aren't trying to get them to commit the exact amount and it takes the pressure off of them. "I don't need your exact amount, but I want to work with your budget" is the way I put it. Ask the question earlier rather than later.

They will always give you a lower amount than is actually what they want to spend. In your case a $400 answer would have saved you and them a lot of time. Did he expect you to travel for the $400, too? When they come from a long distance away you're usually smart to ask that question early. It means no one in their right mind in their neighborhood will do it for what they have in mind.
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Dirk Dewachter, Photographer
Playa Del Rey | CA | USA | Posted: 5:47 PM on 06.29.11
->> I was going to mark Andrew's post as funny not for what he said but for the money that company was willing to spend on a branding tool. I've had conversations about this in the past, and not as often as I wanted to with Delane because of his no nonsense approach, but it is just out of hand. Just thinking about qualified photographers, meaning they do good work, but don't know a thing about budget, revenue and profit undermine those that do get it. Let me entertain you with a conversation I had with a 12 year old.

They must be related to the 12 year old kid who walked up to me two weeks ago as he stood in front of a Game Stop. He asked me what time it was and I said quarter after ten. To my disbelief he asked, "What time is that?" and I repeated quarter after ten. He looked at me puzzled and I asked him what time he thought that was and he replied:"ten twenty-five" Now I must have looked like i was hit by a brick. So, young man how many quarters in a dollar and he said four, so do you know how many minutes in an hour and the kid said he did not know. Wow, wait it gets better.

Recognizing this was a teachable moment, I asked him if four quarters go in a dollar and there are sixty minutes in an hour, how many minutes you think there are in a quarter of an hour. Crickets! A shoulder shrug and he uttered the profound words:"I don't know." So i told him there are SIXTY MINUTES in an hour and you divide 60 by 4 to find out how many minutes a quarter of an hour was. I asked him how much sixty divided by four was and he said:"forty." HUH? I ended up writing it out for him 60 divided by 2 is 30 and 30 divided by 2 is 15 so a quarter of an hour is fifteen minutes.

Recognizing that he was standing at the front door of a Game Stop, I asked him what he was doing here, to which he excitedly said he was going to buy himself a new game. I shrugged my shoulders and took a page from Chuck Liddy's book: "Young man, YOU don't need a game YOU need a math book and STUDY!" Needless to say, my frustration showed and I asked him what he wanted to do in life and he told me he wanted to be a photographer. I about died, and told him to find a profession where he doesn't have to count and don't even think about becoming a photographer. What is the world coming to. And as a disclaimer, I wasn't dressed like a photographer with a camera vest, wasn't carrying a camera, never mention photos or photography or made any reference to photography whatsoever.

You do get what you pay for.
 This post is:  Informative (4) | Funny (2) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 6:41 PM on 06.29.11
->> I do not listen to Hip-Hop, but there is a song "It's hard to be a pimp"...someone should rewrite it for us working class shooters.
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Nick Morris, Photographer
San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:38 AM on 06.30.11
->> Just to try and balance this out a little, I recently piggybacked a bid with my wife's business to do the photography for an awards event. She was informed after spending hours of her time setting up the event and putting together a list of supplies and vendors that her services would not be needed and that they found someone to do the event cheaper. When she told me this I just shrugged and figured I'd find something else to fill that slot and she told me that they still wanted to hire a professional photographer. NICE. While at the event I had a guy with a Rebel (not knocking Rebels) come up and say "Oh, you must be the pro they hired? I offered to do it free to boost my portfolio" I told him "fire away, boost your portfolio but in the future, NEVER shoot for free" and explained to him the damage he does to our industry. He actually seemed to understand and hopefully I stopped one of these GWC's from any further damage.
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 11:17 AM on 06.30.11
->> Nick--->I'm not sure if I consider this balance...but I think I know what you're trying to say.

Bigger picture...why does everyone think that working for free is the best thing since sliced bread?

On another note, your wife should have had a signed agreement before she started the work and at least obtained a deposit to cover part of her cost. We require anywhere from 20-50% up front before we commit our time to a client.

Delane
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Chris Hunt, Photographer
Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 06.30.11
->> AT&T feels the same about Google. They have structured their business model on customer subscriptions and Google slides in and offers a simular service for free (Google Voice). It's just a hobby for Google; they make revenue from advertisements.

It's true that some people have discontinued their cell phone in favor of Google Voice, but the vast majority of people who depend on a reliable telephone continue to pay large sums of money each month for their AT&T service because of their infrastructure, experience, reliability, and customer support. AT&T needs to continue to make sure they offer something that Google can't provide if they want to stay relevant.

The same is true with the GWC. Some people will gladly 'hire' them for a gig... But those that have the money and need high quality images will always look to the professionals with experience, portfolios, and recommendations.

Competition is a great motivator! As a professional, you have more time to dedicate to your craft and products. This isn't a hobby for you. The GWC will make mediocre photography less competitive, but will make the professional's products and work ethic really stand out.
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Steven Worthy, Photographer
Raleigh | NC | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 07.01.11
->> There are many GWCs ( who coined that anyway?) who feel they are the stuff when using their 75-300mm zooms. I can count the many times they have come to me bragging about their lenses.

Canon now makes a 75-300 L lens and could be for the GWC crowd to look professional! Do not even see the Canon 35-350L or its update at any events!
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Michael Lopez, Student/Intern
Ventura | Ca | USA | Posted: 1:23 PM on 07.01.11
->> Working for free?

I would love just to get paid.

Any tips on how I can start getting my work seen, so I can get paid gigs?
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Nick Morris, Photographer
San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:15 AM on 07.02.11
->> Michael, thank you for your service!
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Tom Davenport, Photographer
Hayden | ID | USA | Posted: 4:13 PM on 07.04.11
->> From the "thought I'd heard it all" catagory: " ... but I'm on disability so I can only make so much money, if you know what I mean".
Damn.
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Nina Zhito, Photographer
bay area | CA | | Posted: 12:40 AM on 07.06.11
->> Hey Chuck,

As one of great, unfettered, speak-your-mind, bring-it-on opinion leaders here on SS, I've seen how your comments are valued both for their low BS content, and the experience you communicate that gives you authority and credibility. That's a double threat that puts you in a fairly unique position to shape constructive, professional behavior among our peers. People, apparently, look up to you. (I do too, truth be told).

With that in mind, I'd like to be so bold as to propose an alternative in our language usage conventions, if you will forgive me for having the balls to do so.

Having long ago established that the "Guy With Camera" is as clueless / contemptible as is the "Mom with Camera", there no longer seems to be a need to make specific, unnecessary and insulting references to intimate feminine paraphernalia.

This is, alas, the unintended and disturbing byproduct of your declaration of the GWC as a "friggin douche bag".

However, I think we can agree that word "enema bag" is universally pejorative to both men and women alike. I would therefore gently encourage the display of leadership, class, and professionalism by adopting the use of the phrase "Enema Bag"instead of referring to a product whose use, by definition, is reserved for women.

Yah, I know douche bags seem gross, but they actually are a fairly benign, distaff fact of life at one point or another for most women -- individuals who might indeed include your mother, wife, daughter or photo editor.

By holding on to clunky, inaccurate language, the unintended consequence, I fear, is that worthy discussion becomes tinged with the stain of misogyny, detracting from its often sound and otherwise useful consideration. And, in this day and age, who among us needs more colorful, negative adjectives to add to our internet presence?

Whaddya think? Isn't there another, equally loaded word we might use and come up with, to comparable effect? I think there is, and I say it is Enema Bag. Even better, Enema Bulb.

Signing off, with hopes, first, that there is a phrase that doesn't disgust and dismay your women colleagues, who are your peers, too, after all -- and confidence that you will accept my remark in the spirit of respectful dismay with which it is offered...

Optimistically, Nina
(During whose tenure at DUMC came to learn that men in The Triangle tended to retain some pride in their ability to comport themselves, however temporarily or transparently --depending on their prurient goals at the time-- with a modicum of decorum).
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (3) | Huh? (2) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:28 AM on 07.06.11
->> Sorry Nina, but "enema bag" just doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same way. but I will take it under advisement.
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 12:07 PM on 07.06.11
->> At a Fourth of July parade this week I saw one lady and a guy, both with 5D MKII cameras, talking and she was lamenting the top control dial did not have a specific setting for various situation such as portrait, et al.

He was trying to show her something in the menus and I really, really wanted to go over and say "ummm, that's not really what that is for" but let it go knowing I could do better with the $250 P&S I was carrying than they would do with their cameras.

It was confirmed later as the man was photographing his kids on their decorated bikes and from the angle he was shooting I'm pretty sure he was only getting the top of their heads. I really wanted to say "you know, if you kneel down you will get a much better picture of your daughter" but once again just chuckled and went about taking snaps of my son with my P&S and taking a look at them on the computer later I was very happy with my results and glad I didn't bother dragging out the MKIV bodies for the parade. Would have been much harder to ride my bike in the parade and have fun dragging that around with me.
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Jon Gardiner, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 07.06.11
->> http://tinyurl.com/l8exxm
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Landon Finch, Photographer
Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 07.06.11
->> I love being around such positive people.
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Thread Title: GWC Quote of the Year
Thread Started By: Chuck Liddy
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