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Action youth sports numbers?
Tod Gomes, Photographer
Pleasant Hill | CA | USA | Posted: 4:33 PM on 05.21.11
->> For all of you who shoot action youth sports. I am trying to get an idea of how much you all shoot during a game.
Let's just say you have 2 kids you are paid to focus on per game plus you take the action of the game(s) too to post online.
So do you take 250, 500, 700, 1000 per game?
Do the numbers differ from each sport?
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 6:11 PM on 05.21.11
->> LAX and football tend to have more players, so consequently more shots. Taking the paid request out of the equation, it's about 500 for a full game of baseball or soccer and maybe around 750 for football and LAX. Usually though, I'll shoot half games on spec, so those numbers would be halved. If paid to focus on two athletes, you'll want to stay for the whole game. As for total numbers YMMV.
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Butch Miller, Photographer
Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 6:40 PM on 05.21.11
->> This is one area where I am not opposed to shooting whatever it takes ... though I never really concern myself with the final numbers ...

For contracted individuals athletes ... depends on the sport, depends on how much action they are involved in ... say it's soccer and they are a natural ball magnet ... you could have several hundred images in a rather short time period ... if it's wrestling and they are super good at the sport and don't spend much time on the mat ... you could end up with only a few dozen images for an entire tournament ... though they will likely be outstanding images if you are on your toes ... I had the pleasure to follow twins recently who were both multiple state champs ... they each would usually average less than 2 minutes (4 individual matches per wrestler) on the mat for an entire tournament ...

I would think the key here wouldn't necessarily be what the proper volume of images captured ... but the content of the images amassed ... I always stress the philosophy of "Quality, not Quantity" with my assistants ... my time is valuable, I don't like to invest too much time staring at pixels on a monitor sorting out the keepers ...

I come from the film era where we were forced to live within a budget of images captured at an event ... I do understand that the economics of how many images we can capture digitally has changed the paradigm ... but seriously ... do we need dozens and dozens of repetitive sequences ... or just the true gems from a given sequence? ... there really is no sense in gathering all that chaff to cull from the wheat at the end of the day ...
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Tod Gomes, Photographer
Pleasant Hill | CA | USA | Posted: 12:14 AM on 05.23.11
->> Thanks for the replies. I just shot Lacrosse today and WOW are the games short. Only two 20 minute halfs. doesn't give you much time compared to the other sports.
Anyone else?
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:33 AM on 05.23.11
->> I have to agree with Butch but have to stress the importance of talking to the client to find out what their needs are. One man's gem is another's rock. Early in the baseball season I sometimes get requests to cover pitchers for the whole game. They REALLY do want 9fps pitching sequences, over and over and over again.

I just did a contracted individual soccer player. Coach kept her in most of the game and when she wasn't in I shot her interacting on the sidelines with the coach and other players the take file count was somewhere around 600.
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Jason Jump, Photographer
Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 9:54 AM on 05.23.11
->> I do very little contracted work where I am concentrating on one or two particular players.

For football I generally end up with 800-1100 pics depending on the game and whether or not I shoot halftime activities.

Lacrosse and soccer are about the same number, especially if it's the first or second time to shoot a particular team.

If I'm covering a team for the nth time I will cut down on the number of shots because by then I'll know where the buyers are and are not for a particular team.

I always tell our shooters the more you shoot the more opportunities you have to sell and you never know when you are going to run into one of those parents that will buy every shot you have of their child just because their child in in the pic.
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 7:14 PM on 05.23.11
->> If you are shooting 1k inages a football game, you will have parents online for WAY too long. If you are spraying and praying, you are wasting your time posting too many images, especially if you have 200 of the QB's and 20 of the linemen.
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Frank Mattia, Photographer
Chattanooga | TN | USA | Posted: 7:40 PM on 05.23.11
->> I have learned that the more pics you give to a parent, the more confused they get and often buy less. Quality is key, I try to edit at the camera when ever there is any down time i.e. between innings, half-time, and time outs.
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:59 PM on 05.23.11
->> Sam 1,000 shots for a football game is pretty tame in my book. Covering two teams, two cheer squads, and at least one band I usually end up in the 1200-1500 range (posted).

I routinely have parents go through several seasons worth of games to select images for collages or 'yearbooks'. Depending on the cart software that a site runs on I know of people who keep an edited 'lightbox' throughout the season and order at the end of the season.

We HAVE to stop underestimating our customers simply because WE wouldn't dig through 1200 images. There are those people who WILL buy every single image that you take of their kid. I've had mothers get loud and angry because we didn't want to sell them photos onsite at a tournament because the image was out of focus.

I can't imagine Baskin Robbins saying that they stopped at 52 flavors because their customers couldn't order a cone if they offered 60 flavors due to confusion.
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Jason Jump, Photographer
Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 10:51 AM on 05.25.11
->> Yes there are some parents that won't take the time to look through that many images, but in the eight-plus years I've been doing this only one has actually told me they wouldn't buy any because there were too many to go through.

I've had some say that it took them a long time to go through the pics, but they also said they loved it.

The reality at least for me is that the photographers that shoot the most make the most money. A lot of times if you give the parents just one option that's what they are going to go with. But if you give them 10 options then you may end up selling 5-7 or even in some cases all 10 instead of just one.

Bottom line is if you don't have the 10 up there you can't sell them. If you have them up and they don't buy them who gets harmed by that?

My philosophy is better to have too much and not sell anything than miss that golden parent because you didn't have enough.

And maybe it has to do with parts of the country???
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Randy Abrams, Photographer
Bath | NY | US | Posted: 11:27 AM on 05.25.11
->> I would much rather post more pictures than less. You never know when one of the players parents are the queen/king of scrap booking and will buy pretty much every picture of their child. I've sold pictures of the back of a player (no visible face), when that play was out of focus in the shot (the focus was another player), player just standing on the sidelines, etc. I tend to shoot with the "ya never know" mentality. With that said I pick and choose the games I'll shoot and don't have deadlines. If I was out shooting every day of the week that would definitely affect my numbers taken per game and posted per game.
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 05.25.11
->> I haven't been able to find any rhyme or reason to this business nor able to predict which events will sell more than others, but I do have empirical evidence that suggests the following two things...

1) The more images you shoot, the more you sell.
2) The higher the gas prices, the less you sell.
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Scott Evans, Photographer
Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 12:44 PM on 05.25.11
->> I'm very much in the less is, well, less but is still preferable camp. I wouldn't say that is necessarily right or wrong but I just don't like posting a dozen shots from a sequence that all look basically the same. I also hate posting a shot that I feel is sub standard (by my standards, not the parents). Sure the parent might buy it but for me, its just not worth it to have what I consider to be a lousy image with my name associated with it for a $6 4x6 sale. I actually wound up in a tiff with two fellow shooters I'd hired for a tournament over this issue. In the end, we did sell more images because they posted everything they shot BUT... the next year, the tournament director asked me if I wanted the contract provided I bring in different shooters after we went over the images from the prior year. In this case, it might have simply been the skill (or lack of) of the guys I hired but I'd seen quality work from them before that so I really suspect the IQ suffered because their focus was on quantity over quality.

All that said, I shoot mainly soccer and hoops and I'd say an average game for either might see me taking home 400-500 frames to edit. Many more are deleted in camera during breaks.
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Butch Miller, Photographer
Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 05.25.11
->> "But if you give them 10 options then you may end up selling 5-7 or even in some cases all 10 instead of just one."

or ... you could get a phone call or an email from them trying to "negotiate" a deal for the entire batch that would equate your profit margin to that of a single image sale at full price ... it sometimes is a double-edged sword ...

I have had those few customers who will buy every image I capture of their child ... I swear they would buy an image of their kid picking his nose if I would shoot and post it ... but do I want to be known as the nose-picker photographer ... or the back shooter photographer? ... Not so much ... I would rather be known as a great photographer ... not as the one who can amass the most images at an event ...

Seriously ... of the 1,200 images posted, what is the average number that are ACTUALLY sold from an average game? ... I would wager, sight unseen, that the sales would be nearly identical for a batch of 600 images from the same event culling out the mundane and repetitive files ... and further wager that posting 2,400 images from the same event would not increase sales in any significant manner ... if at all ... I mean do we just throw any image at all in our portfolios or only those images that will impress prospective clients the most? ... Images that we, ourselves would be proud to hang on our own walls ... game/event coverage shouldn't really be any different ...

While I agree that we shouldn't place unnecessary limits on ourselves, I also think that simply posting more images won't dramatically increase sales .. those images also have to be worthy of capturing and posting ... if simply increasing volume was the answer to success ... I know a few fellows that are struggling mightily right now that should be outright millionaires at this point if we were to base sales purely on the number of images posted for viewing to potential clients ... and also that the folks who will buy every image you post of their child are the rare exception and not the rule ...
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Mike Janes, Photographer
Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 05.25.11
->> Honestly I try to keep galleries for most games to around 400 or less, usually regular season games are 250 or less. I shoot a lot of high school games for MaxPreps so that's print ready editing - if it was just culling and throwing them online then numbers wouldn't be too big a problem, but still would keep the numbers to probably 500-600 for most sports. Fact is if you're doing print ready we're talking a lot of hours of work for probably a not very high payout. If you're not doing print ready it's just a matter of getting as many angles, as many players, as many different things as possible so it's not all the same - then the numbers start to matter a lot less.

Sometimes it all depends on league to, the local high school division I shoot a lot less because the sales are traditionally bad - but the local school is in that league and there are some loyal customers from that team, so you can guess who overtakes the gallery usually. The city leagues sales are much better so gallery size increases drastically, sometimes almost double or triple.

As to what Butch said, I get a LOT of people asking for discounts and negotiate a deal when there is a lot of images of one player, to which now there's a built in discount system in place that starts at 20 prints, so it has to be a large order to get them. Still have some people asking for different discounts, had one guy email me saying he wanted all 40 images he picked out, burned to a CD and mailed - but he's willing to give me $30. Oh yea I jumped on that opportunity - to tell him about the built in discounts.

Also, as to what Butch said - the galleries I'm doing today from yesterdays games there's images I would usually delete, but sometimes parents want those boring shots and don't think like many of us do on what a "great shot" is. I've had some orders where their kid is in the background out of focus - the best was a parent ordered a shot of her son, all shots really, but one was his chest down in the background, she just saw the jersey number so had to buy! Others they see the image, and I think it's boring or just not good, and you hear "that's SO HIM!" They want the odd at times, so it's been hard but I've been leaving in a lot that I probably would of deleted before.

Overall, has anyone ever done a survey of what their customer base wants? I did years ago, small sample of maybe 15-20 at most, but never really have for action shots and what they think. We should be asking the customers opinions and not really other photographers, just my two cents.
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Scott Evans, Photographer
Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 10:13 PM on 05.25.11
->> Excellent pint about print ready image posting Mike. Wait, did I just compliment Janes?
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Richard Favinger Jr, Photographer
Pottstown | PA | USA | Posted: 10:42 PM on 05.25.11
->> So, here is another question...
If you shoot 800 photos of a game, how do most of you deal with it? Do you cull out only the true duds (OOF), do you crop, or do you just post it all and let them sort it out?
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Jim Pierce, Photographer
Waltham | MA | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 05.25.11
->> Mike,

Do you realy shoot on spec, as I believe maxpreps is, edit images and post in hopes of a sale? And maybe only a portion of?


In response to your original question... I just looked at this past spring, winter and fall games, youth thru college, and I generaly range from 400-1000 for the GAME action. If you add in the Pre-game/cheerleaders etc this would double BUT they are not posted in the same album. I even post the pitchers of a baseball game in a seperate album. These are usually taken in groups and not much work to sort out.

I have looked at many many photog's sites and in all honesty If I was a cheerleading parent/pitchers parent or parent of a son who did not play I would not go far. I am not mentioning this because this is how I do it but that it is in repsonses over the years. The pitchers/cheer/non starter/non players parents typically will NOT look through hundreds or thousands of images of others to find the image(s) they are looking for. It is like finding a needle in a hay stack. make that hay stack much smaller and the needle much bigger all the better. I have also found these are the parents that buy.

Lumping in pop warner cheerleaders within the game action, the the pitchers into the game action and warmups/infield etc is not a good idea.

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Jim Pierce, Photographer
Waltham | MA | USA | Posted: 11:13 PM on 05.25.11
->> Rich,

I cull out all the duds, OOF images and some that I just don't feel anyone has a reason to buy, not saying if I went through them with a finer comb I would delete more but time is valuable to so it is a compromise. The OOF images get deleted and not posted.

As I mentioned in my previous post I try, within reason, to sort out the images.

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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 8:44 AM on 05.26.11
->> @Rich yes the 800 would be edited down to remove OOF and other crud. I do NOT crop, color correct or otherwise post process the photos. That's not to say that on those occasions where there is a photo that I particularly like that I won't clean it up before posting it.

For those of you who think that people won't or don't want to go though 1000's of photos, here is an actual excerpt from an email/order that I received yesterday:

....... I really appreciated it!! More importantly, since my youngest is graduating from XXXXXXXXXX - I want you to know how much I appreciated that you were always at the important events taking beautiful pictures allowing George and I to enjoy the game free from a camera. We have always loved the pictures and they look beautiful in the scrapbooks I made for both of my girls! Thanks again for all you do! .........

This lady went through 39 football games spanning 3 years PLUS other events held at the school that I covered. EVERY spring I get several of these as graduation nears. I get them at events too.... I had a dad come to me on day 2 of the state wrestling tournament when I was shooting the RIIL tournaments. He came by to tell me that he had left his camera at home and was going to enjoy watching his kid wrestle in 3D rather than through a viewfinder. He had spend some time at he viewstations and knew that we were going to cover the action so he didn't have to. Last year I had one dad who wanted me TO shoot his kid whenever he fell on the ice or otherwise had a not so proud hockey moment.... he wanted a blooper reel. He also dropped $300 on 'good' photos and a wall cling. Later during a break I watched him and the kid pouring over the bloopers, laughing and having a grand time. At first I thought that the guy was just some ass who was looking for ammo to beat up on the kid..... just went to show me to stop judging and get to selling.

One thing that I do daily is to review visitor stats. Every page on my site has a tracking cookie that lets me see what is happening. I look at things like what OS people are using to surf my site. When iOS was getting popular I changed my slideshows from flash to HTML so that I could capture those eyes. iOS is down to 3% so I'm back to standard flash Soundslides. I track what screen resolution my visitors mostly have their monitors set to. As a result I bumped up the size of the thumbnails by 50% and increase the number loaded per page to 100. Now people can view 800 images on 8 pages seeing thumbnails that are big enough to see the shot and know whether their child is in the shot without having to open the preview image. It is VERY VERY rare (it DOES happen) that someone complains that there are too many photos. I just go on the knowledge that I can please everyone and that trying to please everyone would only add one more pill to my breakfast lineup.

I think that the #1 biggest mistake that photographers make it thinking that they are working for SI and forgetting the parents who are going to buy the photos. Notice that I said working and not shooting. We should all at least TRY to shoot to that standard just not edit to it. It cuts too many parents and sales out of the mix. I also think that life is regional and that what may work for a shooter in W. VA may be different than what will work in LA or NYC. You have to play to the customers where you are.

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Michael Granse, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 8:59 AM on 05.26.11
->> That's no post . . . it's a mission statement!
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Jason Jump, Photographer
Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 11:07 AM on 05.26.11
->> "or ... you could get a phone call or an email from them trying to "negotiate" a deal for the entire batch that would equate your profit margin to that of a single image sale at full price ... it sometimes is a double-edged sword ..."

Everything we do basically is a double-edged sword. Have I had those phone calls? Sure. Do I have a lot of them. No. It's less than five a season. And "if" they get a "deal" it's certainly not going to be in the range of making less than what I would have made selling one photo.

And at least for us it's not like we're posting a 1000 images where several hundred are out of focus. Are they SI quality shots . . . of course not . . . but in a burst of 10 shots of a pitcher how do I know exactly which one the parent will want? How do I know if they just want one or if they want the entire motion sequence?

We are continually amazed at some of the FANTASTIC shots that go unsold and some of what we would consider the LAMEST pics that folks will purchase.

Mike made a great point. If I had to post-process all of my pics before uploading I certainly would not be posting that many pics. Like Eric I post everything unprocessed and then do all of the post work after a sale. And that's why a lot of folks like shooting with us, because they want to shoot. They don't want to be bothered with the post work.

Most of our shooters do a pretty good job of getting good shots straight out of the camera. Then our customers (who really like our photos to begin with) get an even better surprise when they open the package to see the photos they receive are higher quality than what they were expecting to receive.

Different philosophy for different folks I guess. But again the numbers prove out for us at least that the shooters that shoot the most make the most money.

By the way I really like idea of separating out the games. I've done a little of that in the past. May really consider that more for next year.
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 11:09 AM on 05.26.11
->> Here's what I've learned over the past 8 years -

1. Never try to second guess what parents want or don't want to buy.
2. Mom's are your target so start reading Martha Stewart books.
3. You will always be a "work in progress".
4. Always credit your subject for the "great" in the shot.
5. Listen more ... talk less.
6. Respect and appreciate the work of other photographers. This isn't a pissing contest.
7. Don't be a jerk.
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Jason Jump, Photographer
Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 11:35 AM on 05.26.11
->> Pretty good set of guidelines right there Kevin!
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Mike Janes, Photographer
Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 05.26.11
->> Scott, you did - stop it!

Jim, they have a deal with the state so some games like select playoffs, championships, and a few choice others are paid - while of course getting 80% of the sales as normal. Other games I choose to do - some covering a game or player for another reason and then shoot the entire game for secondary sales as I'm there anyways - some games will even just go shoot and see sales wise. However, for the most part know what sales will be like because I keep close eye on my average per game, per sport, and per league in the area trying not to waste my time with the leagues/schools that just don't do well sales wise.

Now usually when out shooting on my own will try to drive people to my site, and if I was only using my site I wouldn't do print ready, however some like to buy through MP as they know the name and use the site more than mine, guess it can be a trust thing with some out there. In the long run editing doesn't take that long, hence keeping gallery size down - it's an action run while opening the files and then another action for saving it after cropping, quick and simple.
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Alan Herzberg, Photographer
Elm Grove | WI | USA | Posted: 8:17 PM on 05.26.11
->> Kevin Krows has nailed it. Especially item 2 and 7, but all 7 points are spot on.

A few years ago a couple Moms came to me and said, "We really like it when you get shots of our kids on the sidelines smiling or crying or celebrating. Can you do more of those?" I could, I did, and they bought.

I've also worked pretty hard at being less of a jerk the past few years, with uneven but encouraging results.
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Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:42 AM on 05.27.11
->> Talk about timely..... From this week's SI Editor's Letter:

"There is also firepower. SI photographers shot 26,140 pictures over the first six games of the NBA conference finals this week, 14,341 through the first eight games of the NHL conference finals this week and 1,723 at the Preakness....."

So doing the math that means that on average an SI shooter at a NBA conference game shot 4300-ish frames. Slice and dice it any way you want between the remotes and the floor etc. and it's still 4300 images a game. I'd be interested in knowing only if they sent more than one shooter to any of those six games.
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Steve King, Photographer
Ann Arbor | MI | USA | Posted: 8:56 PM on 05.29.11
->> I think SI usually has 2-3 shooters and 2-3 remotes, so up to 6 cameras shooting over 700 frames per game on average. Probably 80-1000 per human controlled camera since the remotes aren't firing every time there is a play.

I'm agreeing with Eric 100% here...
As far as shooting the younger "non-pro" athletes, the stuff that goes on off the field is often as important if not more so than what goes on between the lines.
I remember this, these photos are not for me, or anyone else except for the parents or the athletes. They're not used to what you/me/we see every day, they want to see their own little All-Star doing just about everything.

To quote Dr. Phil "its not about YOU!"
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Thread Title: Action youth sports numbers?
Thread Started By: Tod Gomes
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