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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

POYi firestorm brewing (there's an app for that)
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 02.10.11
->> Well, yet another reason I'm glad not to have entered this contest. I, on a personal note have no qualms about people entering photos that they shot with any camera they want. what I have a problem with is a contest who lets their judges totally disregard THEIR OWN RULES and award a winner...check out this blog and some of the comments.....http://chiplitherland.com/blog/
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 11:58 AM on 02.10.11
->> I agree. The type of camera used is irrelevant. The filter is the issue. The filter is designed to alter the content of the image to give it an artistic-Holga-whatever-you-want-to-call-it look. The images have been altered. There is no way around it.


"Be accurate and comprehensive in the representation of subjects."

"Editing should maintain the integrity of the photographic images' content and context. Do not manipulate images or add or alter sound in any way that can mislead viewers or misrepresent subjects."
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 02.10.11
->> Here's the rule:

" Digital manipulation, manufactured photo
illustrations, double exposures, added masks,
borders, backgrounds, text, or other artistic
effects are not allowed. "

fifth bulleted item under general guidelines on: 68POYI_CallForEntries.pdf

It's a conundrum...
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Logan Mock-Bunting, Photographer
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 1:09 PM on 02.10.11
->> Have my humble opinion about it on my blog:
http://blog.birdstofindfish.com/

Quick synopsis:
There IS a line. There IS a definable point, a noticeable action. No slippery slope.

As David says above, the POYi rules expressly forbid "artistic effects".

The Hipstamatic App for iPhones is a software that manipulates colors, saturation, exposure and textures in an image to “Bring back the look, feel, unpredictable beauty, and fun of plastic toy cameras of the past.” (From The Hipstamatic official Facebook page) The website for the app states images become “Artistic and painted with light.”

As described by the the company who created it, this application CLEARLY clashes with POYi rules. Therefore, the winning essay shouldn’t qualify for this contest.

The most ironic thing to me is that many other award winning photographs have been MUCH more manipulated than these, but they have been done so on the “slippery-slope” of what can be called “toning.” There are many, many, MANY other images I personally think have been “toned” to an excessive point that becomes, not a simple color-balance or contrast adjustment, but out-and-out manipulation. Don’t even get me started on this, as I think so many photographers spend more time “toning” their images to outlandish lengths than actually thinking about and making good images to start with… I am NOT condoning those images, or the photographer’s responsibilities in image preparation.
However, I have to concede that standards can be tricky when judgments are made by an “opinion-based” threshold or judgment.

The reason I think this case is so unique – and DOES need to be addressed quickly – is the fact that there is a singular action that can be pointed out and admonished as against the written rules for this prestigious (and guiding) contest.
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:47 PM on 02.10.11
->> I completely agree with Jeremy, but I also agree with Randy Eli Grothe's comment on the blog.

"And what about the black-and-white “app” that has been added to so much originally-shot-and-published-in-color photojournalism over the years for the sake of winning in POYi year-after-year? That, to me, is a much more grievous, artistic after-effect than whatever has occurred in Damon’s pictures."

If color is a distracting element in a photo, why are you allowed (and almost encouraged, based on past winners) to remove it, while removing a light switch or a telephone pole is adamantly against the rules?
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Rick Osentoski, Photographer
Martin | OH | United States | Posted: 2:45 PM on 02.10.11
->> Not taking one side or another but pointing out how the Hipstamatic app works could make it different from manipulating the image in photoshop.

The app allows you to select a lens, film, flash type and such for you to simulate like you were using that camera and film. It does not give you control over how much of the effects are applied to the image or are you applying it after in photoshop. Not much different than in the film days when film choice was a factor to the final image.
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 3:07 PM on 02.10.11
->> Sounds like Poynter is going to have a live, on-line discussion about these images. The time has apparently yet to be decided but I'll post it when I hear it from the unofficial photojournalism news wire... also known as Melissa Lyttle.
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Andy Bronson, Photographer
Bellingham | WA | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 02.10.11
->> I thank Chip and others who primed in about this because after seeing the #1 Feature photo, I thought I must be so stupid that I was missing something and that there are better minds at work here. Nice to know that I wasn't the only one feeling this way. in spite of the photos being so well done by Damon, I feel the hipstamatic is a nice thing for illustrations but not for journalism. Life happens and if you need to fancy it up by hand of god or by an app, I feel that's a loss to photojournalism and to the subjects themselves.
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 4:03 PM on 02.10.11
->> Poynter live chat on this issue tomorrow at 3pm EST

http://www.poynter.org/how-tos/newsgathering-storytelling/118898/live-chat-.../
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Jason Hirschfeld, Photographer, Photo Editor
Norfolk | VA | U.S. | Posted: 10:31 PM on 02.10.11
->> Just for kicks: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ari/5204739764/

But also, AP's David Guttenfelder had some Hipstamtatic fun, too:
http://blogs.denverpost.com/captured/2010/03/24/captured-guttenfelders-ipho.../
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David Harpe, Photographer
Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 12:59 AM on 02.11.11
->> Wow. I'm just really stunned that it's even being debated by the POYi folks. It's clearly over the line.

If you were to do that same exact effect to a clean picture using Photoshop, you'd be immediately called out on it. Just because the processing is done with the same type of technology running on a smart phone should make no difference.

It's a nice image - but it's a "photo illustration", plain and simple. It should be in a contest for photo illustrations, not photojournalism.
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 1:55 AM on 02.11.11
->> Just something to consider - Has anyone been looking at the actual subject matter of the feature picture story? Or have we all been lost in this sea of color and toning:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31511137&l=14e4401a50&id=1051350119
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:41 AM on 02.11.11
->> Patrick ---

It's called ethics.

Digital manipulation is a counter to journalism ethics.

I love the photographs. But nonetheless it's digital manipulation.

From that has judged a contest or two in my day (including POY) ...
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Rick Osentoski, Photographer
Martin | OH | United States | Posted: 7:49 AM on 02.11.11
->> Is it not also digital manipulation when you convert an image to black and white, the original was not shot that way unless you are shooting film. Maybe when you shot it you thought this would be great as a BW photo but you still manipulated it to get that look.

In this day of digital unless you are shooting film the only way to duplicate the look you would get with a certain film and camera combination is through some sort of digital filtering. In the case of the Hipstamatic is it not just letting you choose a camera and film combination you get what you get and are not manipulating it after the fact.

Also Patrick you posted someone else's copyrighted photos to your facebook page did you get permission to do so?
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Andrew Craft, Photographer
Fayetteville | NC | USA | Posted: 9:27 AM on 02.11.11
->> I think this one might be worse than the whole iPhone app debate. World Press awarded an HM for shots of a computer screen with google street view scenes on it. How the hell is that photojournalism?

http://www.worldpressphoto.org/index.php?option=com_photogallery&task=view&...
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 9:38 AM on 02.11.11
->> I am not taking a position on the images - just something that was part of a discussion with someone else "What if it was just B&W?" - and to see people's reaction

Rick,
I am well aware of copyright. I believe that under the context for which the image was posted, how it was posted - for the purpose of educational comment & criticism - that the post would be a legitimate example of "fair use."
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 02.11.11
->> To answer Andrew Craft's question I went to the source and asked the ever helpful and gracious Sportsshooter member Dave Burnett, a judge on this year's panel, about that choice. His answer is very interesting:

"It was a response to the world we live in: where CCTVs are everywhere -- trucks, buildings, etc. and how do we deal with all the information which is constantly being created
No obvious answers, but we're happy to raise the question.
It redefines what is a photography and how photographs play a part in all our lives.
If you grew up with Google Earth, you see the world differently than those who came before you and did not."

(posted with permission)
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Jason Orth, Photographer
Lincoln | NE | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 02.11.11
->> To Rich's point, what if he had used a real Holga/Diana/Lomo to get the effect?
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Sam Morris, Photographer
Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 4:21 PM on 02.11.11
->> Damon Winter's response:

http://tinyurl.com/4zypawu

(it's on Poynter.org if the TinyURL expires)
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Sam Morris, Photographer
Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 4:41 PM on 02.11.11
->> Same response on the NYT Lens blog, but with comments:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/through-my-eye-not-hipstamatics/
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Matthew Ginn, Photographer
Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 02.11.11
->> Winter says used an iPhone instead of a DSLR because it wasn't so intimidating for his subjects. Excellent reason, lets the readers see something they otherwise couldn't, 100% valid.

If he had chosen a Holga/Diana/Lomo for that reason I would have no problem with that.

But why did he choose to use the Hipstamatic effect? As best I can tell, it was because it makes the pictures look "cooler." Not a valid photojournalism choice, in my opinion.

(And that goes for the other crazy processing that many of the other winning entries have had applied, too.)
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:42 PM on 02.11.11
->> Okay, I started reading that (Mr. Winter's reasoning) but realized anytime you have to write a small novel to defend something you did you're treading on thin ice. But trust me next year it will be something equally "cool" "groovy" and "the use of cutting edge technology" that will win in that contest. geez. too many excuses in this situation. but again, this ultimately, in all these cases, falls on the judges. plain and simple, it's not winter's fault he entered the contest...they just chose not to call him out. there is nothing new here folks. it happens in every contest every year and has for decades.
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Logan Mock-Bunting, Photographer
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 02.11.11
->> Do these images have content? *Yes*
Is there a place for them in history? *Yes*
Are they story-telling? *Yes*
Can the images be published and enjoyed as a way to carry the experience of being there? *Yes*

The problem is not denying those -or many other- valid points.

The problem is: Do the images break the rules of the contest they were entered in?

*Yes*

End of story.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:09 PM on 02.11.11
->> LMB.....slam dunk....f$#king A! if your famous you can piss in public.
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Jason Hirschfeld, Photographer, Photo Editor
Norfolk | VA | U.S. | Posted: 11:25 PM on 02.11.11
->> So, wait...can I start shooting my assignments via my iPhone? I'll have to run that by my boss at The Virginian-Pilot on Monday. I hope he says "yes" because those SLR's get, umm, heavy.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 02.11.11
->> @jason....remember to tell the boss you might win a POYi award with your cell phone and a couple of apps, and it will make HIM look good with management...you are home FREE!!!!
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 12:31 AM on 02.12.11
->> I'd be careful about telling your editor you can produce quality, award-winning photos with your iPhone... a $300 camera phone will certainly make it onto the next budget over $5000 worth of DSLR camera equipment. ;)
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Kent Nishimura, Student/Intern, Photographer
Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 4:04 AM on 02.12.11
->> if it's considered 'toning' to turn an image black and white...is it still considered 'toning' if you use the monochrome picture style on a SLR?
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Angus Mordant, Student/Intern
Sydney | NSW Australia | Australia | Posted: 4:51 AM on 02.12.11
->> It is certainly an interesting case. I don't buy his argument that they couldn't be taken with a larger camera due to being more noticed and thus loosing the moment.

Some very very fine 'fly-on-the-wall' photojournalism has been done with a pro sized DSLR and lenses. And if he is sticking to that reasoning why not either shoot as is with the in phone camera or use a smaller camera such as a Canon G12 or even a real Holga or Lomo.

Nice Pictures = YES
Nice Story = YES
However i believe it is excessive and against the POYi rules as i read them.
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Thread Title: POYi firestorm brewing (there's an app for that)
Thread Started By: Chuck Liddy
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