Story   Photographer   Editor   Student/Intern   Assistant   Job/Item

SportsShooter.com: The Online Resource for Sports Photography

Contents:
 Front Page
 Member Index
 Latest Headlines
 Special Features
 'Fun Pix'
 Message Board
 Educate Yourself
 Equipment Profiles
 Bookshelf
 my.SportsShooter
 Classified Ads
 Workshop
Contests:
 Monthly Clip Contest
 Annual Contest
 Rules/Info
Newsletter:
 Current Issue
 Back Issues
Members:
 Members Area
 "The Guide"
 Join
About Us:
 About SportsShooter
 Contact Us
 Terms & Conditions


Sign in:
Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features.

Name:



Password:







||
SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Just because you have it doesn't mean you can sell it!
Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 04.07.10
->> I recently recently sold some images for editorial use to regional magazine publisher. The company design editor gave the images away to an advertiser for use in a brochure designed and published by the same company.

The contract I signed stated one time print use and internet usage for one year.

My conversation to the editorial client.

Me: "You Know, that you can't turn around resell an image for use other than what you purchased it for, without my consent."

Client: "Dude; you sold to me, I can do what ever I want with it."

Me: "You about copyright laws, don't you."

Client: "Man; this is first job out of school."

Me: "What did you study."

Client: "Photography and graphic design."

Me: "Didn't you have a media law class."

Client: "Dude, I we didn't have learn that sh!# in school."

Me: "Well you don't really own the photo, just the right to use it in the magazine."

Client: "What are can you do about it now."

Me: "Who's you boss."

Client: Telephone conversation ends...CLICK.

Well, at least I got paid. I talked to his boss; the president of a company that prints city magazines designed for community marketing.

The response I got was, "We share all of our content with our advertisers, and if you don't like it you can settle it in court."

I'm done, I don't care who it is....I will not shoot any freelance projects with editorial clients till market trends and attitudes change. I have a job, I don't need this crap from idiots who are used to taking advantage of their content providers and hire morons to do work that should require a seasoned professional.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Kenny Felt, Photographer, Assistant
Fort Scott | KS | USA | Posted: 4:47 PM on 04.07.10
->> I'd take him to court and just show him what an idiot he is.
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 04.07.10
->> Sorry about the typos
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Brad Barr, Photographer
Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 04.07.10
->> Are you a PPA member??? Their legal council can be of much assistance in this sort of thing. The carry a lot more weight than any of us individually
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 4:52 PM on 04.07.10
->> Kenny,

I don't have the money or the time to deal with it in court, which is exactly what they want.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Brad Barr, Photographer
Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 4:55 PM on 04.07.10
->> Thats why you pay your ppa dues..so you an have them do it for you
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (1) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Stew Milne, Photographer
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 4:58 PM on 04.07.10
->> I would also send the advertiser an invoice. If they complain, ask them to have the magazine pay the invoice, since they are the ones who did the unauthorized "lending."

Explain to them that your contract doesn't say they can share content with their advertisers. The threat of legal action usually works, also leaning on the people who have the money (advertisers) can help too. The advertisers don't want to be dragged into court.

And, WOW, what idiots. I've run into my fair share of clients who don't want to pay or claim ignorance, but that conversation takes the cake.

-sM
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 04.07.10
->> Anyway the point is that people know that they can get away with this kind of crap 90-percent of time, and they don't care about the consequences.

It would be more expensive for me fight them in court than what it would for them to defend their practices.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

David Seelig, Photographer
Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 04.07.10
->> Take them to small claims court very cheap no lawyers. I did once and won with a magazine that failed to return images, and used them a year later.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Allen Murabayashi, Photographer
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 04.07.10
->> "I will not shoot any freelance projects with editorial clients till market trends and attitudes change."

How is it going to change if the people negatively affected by it (i.e. you) are unwilling to push for change?

You could:
- Join a trade group and pick up the fight there.
- Divulge the name of the publisher and the players online. This might ensure that you never work with them again, but that seems to be your position anyway.
 This post is:  Informative (6) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 5:43 PM on 04.07.10
->> You should name and shame the company so that others will know enough to stay away from them.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Rick Osentoski, Photographer
Martin | OH | United States | Posted: 5:53 PM on 04.07.10
->> I had a client try to pay me 50% of an invoice when they were having problems with a client that went into chapter 11. I flat out told them no the photos we did were not for that client and they were paid for the photos so why should I take it on the chin when a different client didn't pay them. They said if I would not agree then they would pay me nothing.

This was an advertising job and my client was an agency.

I handled it by writing a letter to their clients CEO and Marketing person. In the letter I stated.
" You do not know me but you know my work"
I sent them samples of the photos I did with the agency on their behalf and explained to them that by them using these yet unpaid for photos they were in violation of my copyright and would therefor also be named in any suit that we would take to get our payment for these photos.

I had a check from the agency in 3 days.

I would do the same thing here write the company that used the images, let them know that the publisher had no right to allow them to use the photos and that they are in violation of your copyright. If the publisher resold the images then send an invoice for the usage to the publisher and include that in the letter. If the publisher just gave them away then send an invoice to the advertiser.

If the company that used the photos for the ad will typically pay or if they paid the publisher for the photos put pressure on the publisher to pay it, they don't want the bad PR.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 6:04 PM on 04.07.10
->> Hal,

First: Is the image registered? Has it been 90 days since the image was published? If not, register it. You'll get the nominal fee back with your settlement or judgement. Save copies of the brochure as evidence for your attorney.

Second: Upon receipt of the registration certificate contact an IP attorney in your state. Make copies of the paperwork and turn it over to them.

Third: Sit back and wait for your check :-)

As Keith said, tossing in the towel will not help you, the industry or keep this company and other from using the same tactic.

On side note: Did the image contain any registered marks, faces of people who could easily be recognized or that private property not owned by the client? It could be that the client did not obtain the proper releases necessary to use the image commercially. You could contact the owners of the property and notify them that their rights have also been violated.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mike Janes, Photographer
Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 6:33 PM on 04.07.10
->> Letting them get away with it is a lot more harmful than doing nothing! All that does is let them think they can take advantage of photographers and hurting others in the future. Just had a VERY similar incident happen today and in two phone calls was taken care of, with no lawyers. Find out who the boss is on your own and get it taken care of, instead of doing exactly what they want which is NOTHING.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
Ft Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 8:35 PM on 04.07.10
->> think twice before you just walk away, maybe send him this link along with a bill and tell him he'll be hearing from your attorney if he doesn't pay
http://www.photoattorney.com/2008/06/photographer-gets-12-million-verdict.h...
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 04.07.10
->> This is why it is critical to NEVER use the word "sell" and to ALWAYS use the term "license" instead. Rights granted should be referred to in all paperwork and spelled-out in large type in the invoice.

There is no excuse for any client to have any room for deniability.

--Mark
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 8:47 PM on 04.07.10
->> I'm going to shoot myself in the foot until my life improves!
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (6) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Brian Blanco, Photographer
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 04.07.10
->> Hal, you said: "Anyway the point is that people know that they can get away with this kind of crap 90-percent of time, and they don't care about the consequences."

If they're getting away with it 90% of the time then what ARE the consequences? If photographers are willing to throw their hands up and say, 'well, it's not worth the fight' then the PHOTOGRAPHERS are the problem. It's OUR responsibility to ensure compliance... not REQUEST it, but DEMAND it.

The guys I work closely with don't stand for that kind of nonsense. I'm a professional and I expect my clients and colleagues to be professionals too. When my competition conduct themselves in a responsible manner and control their copyrights, demand solid contracts and monitor misuse of their work product then I benefit. And they benefit when I conduct myself in a similar fashion.

When someone violates my copyright I go after them, plain and simple; every time, without exception. I do it not just for my bottom line but I do it for the rest of my friends in my market and even for shooters I've never met - like you.

Here's the best part: I've always come out ahead. The common misconception is that it's too expensive to fight. Wrong. Rarely do the defendants' attorneys allow these things to go to court. The defendants' attorneys often times are the ones that talk sense into their clients and explain the law to them and explain just how much they have to lose. Trust me, unauthorized commercial usage opens them up to significant liability and once they hear those kinds of numbers explained by their OWN attorney, they often settle quickly and have a tendency to respect our copyrights from that point on.
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

David Bailey, Photographer
Flower Mound | TX | USA | Posted: 11:45 PM on 04.07.10
->> Hal,

Sorry, but by taking that "do nothing" stance you are adding to the problem and they will have learned nothing. Join PPA and let them deal with it. It will cost you nothing but the price of membership.

You have been given 2 good, low-cost, options (PPA and small claims court) by other members and you seem to want to do nothing about it. By taking this stance you add to the problem. If all the facts are as stated you really have a fairly easy case (legally). Collecting could be difficult but that's a different issue. How is not taking freelance jobs going to fix the problem? Do you really think by doing nothing they will learn a lesson?

At least post their names and details and unleash the wrath of other photographers on them.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Rick Davis, Photographer
Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 04.08.10
->> Hal, I agree with Brian. Demand what is due you and follow through with those actions. I have experienced the same outcomes Brian noted in his response. You might be surprised at how little money and time it actually takes. Copyright infringement cases are filed in the Federal Courts. When the defendant is faced with explaining their actions before a Federal Court judge, their attorney will recommend settlement.

There are far to many of these individuals which exhibit the same arrogance, and unless we each take a stand on these issues we perpetuate the problem.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 1:59 AM on 04.08.10
->> Now you know, and knowing is have the battle.

SING IT WITH ME KNOW!!! "G-I-J....
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Samuel Lewis, Photographer
Miami | FL | USA | Posted: 8:00 AM on 04.08.10
->> Mark,

Actually, the terminology is important because it will provide the client's lawyer with a defensive argument. When a copy of a copyrightable work is sold, the photographer loses the right to control subsequent distribution of the copy sold. That does not apply in a licensing context.

Joe,

Do you really believe that the photographer who obtained a $12 million judgment ever collected a dime?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 10:38 AM on 04.08.10
->> It's not that I'm not going to do anything about this problem, right now I'm really ticked off.

I need to wrap my head around this situation, without going ballistic.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:18 PM on 04.08.10
->> Before everyone gets all up in arms and giving advice on how to pursue an infringement claim or about sending invoices to the advertiser and such, we need one crucial piece of the puzzle; what does the license agreement state?

If it says right there in the LA that the buyer has rights to do something beyond that one time editorial use, or leaves any sort of ambiguity but not explicitly stating "this is all you're allowed to do with it", then all these comments are moot.

As it's been mentioned above, the language - even here - needs to be strict and precise (in case this ever does go to court and they dig this up for evidence). If you "sold" the image to them, then you're SOL. It's akin to buying or leasing a car. If you lease (license) the car and end up using it as a rally car (usage beyond intended purpose), and they find out, you're in deep doo-doo when it comes time to turn it in (end of license period).

If you buy the car however (selling an image), you can paint it pink and cover the roof in gorilla poop if that's what you really want to do with it because you bought it and it's yours.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Hal Smith, Photographer
Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 3:39 PM on 04.08.10
->> Thomas,

It's a standard one time print usage, one year Internet agreement, and actionable. The problem in this case is about my need bump egos with a corporate executive who's pockets are way deeper than mine.

Copyright litigation is expensive and time consuming. The more time it takes to settle in court the less return the plaintiff generally sees.

This is not a high profile situation with hundreds of thousands units in general circulation, but potentially more than a small claim.

I honestly have never been as irritated with the stupidity of a single client as I am with this one.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 04.08.10
->> "Copyright litigation is expensive and time consuming. The more time it takes to settle in court the less return the plaintiff generally sees."

Hal,
Not true if you have registered the image in a timely manner.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:48 PM on 04.08.10
->> It is not that expensive!!

Join ASMP and let their Legal Council (The Price of Darkness) take care of it for you!!

10+ years ago, while I was an ASMP Assistant Member I sent a View camera lens for repair, the Repair station/Lens Distributor refused to send the lens back because they were under reorganization, I called ASMP, they sent me to their Legal Concil (Robert Cavallo at that time) and he called them himself, within 10 minutes the Distributor was calling me to tell me that they were sending me a Brand New lens for my trouble... ONE CALL!!

and it didn't cost me more than the Long Distance fee for the call.

ASMP is worth the membership dues, just for the legal help!!

Y
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
Boise | ID | US | Posted: 7:50 PM on 04.08.10
->> Ditto what Clark said.

If you register in a timely manner, it's all on their bill - legal fees and everything else involved.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 9:00 PM on 04.08.10
->> Israel -

That may be the case....providing that a judgment is both entered in your favor and paid. In the meantime, if one does not have access to a legal service (as described above) - they are paying as they go, hoping for a judgement to reimburse them, or hoping to find someone to take it on a contigency. I would presume that registration would make the latter much more likely.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
Boise | ID | US | Posted: 9:10 PM on 04.08.10
->> Not necessarily - that depends on the attorney, and I would assume an attorney would be flexible in most circumstances in which it's a clear violation and the images were properly registered.

The best way to find out is to contact different attorneys and see how they work individually. It's also good to pick one and develop a long-term relationship with them.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mark Peters, Photographer
Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 9:33 PM on 04.08.10
->> That pretty much defines contingency doesn't it?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
Boise | ID | US | Posted: 9:38 PM on 04.08.10
->> Sorry, missed that :) Move along!
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mike Burley, Photographer
Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 12:30 PM on 04.09.10
->> I would rush a copy of photo to the copyright office and get an officially (c). You can sue for much more if its used without consent, but the official (c) must be obtained before usage. This is my understanding, correct me if Im wrong.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Harrison Shull, Photographer
Fayetteville, WV | Asheville, NC | | Posted: 1:14 PM on 04.09.10
->> I am all for defending your rights as a photog. I register all my work with the LOC and have bombproof paperwork for all licensing deals. I preach the copyright gospel as loud as anybody.

I had an issue about 16 months ago come up where I was 100% covered from a legal standpoint - registered images, signed contracts stipulating terms, email papertrail, etc...

I decided to leverage my postion with the above factors and got an IP attorney involved who said I was indeed in great shape. After a bunch of research by the attorney and a single letter written to the infringer, I was $450 poorer and the owner of advice from the attorney to drop the case because the infringer was so small and struggling to get by in the recession that all I would do would be to force them into bankruptcy and then get nothing.

So somewhere amongst all the righteous indignation that gets tossed about as advice here and other forums... some common sense must come into play. All the steps you take to be legally "in the right" does not negate the fact that it can be hard to squeeze blood from a stone.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Eric Canha, Photographer
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 2:53 PM on 04.09.10
->> Harrison with all due respect to you and the lawyer involved. It sounds like advice from a lawyer that either didn't want to take the case all the way to the end or didn't see enough financial potential.... FOR HIM.

I've had lawyers give me similar advice because in the end they were looking at a case where they would not be able to bill enough to make it worth their while. A good example would be my wife. She has several lawyers that handle work for her.

A few years back one lawyer decided that it wasn't worth the trouble to bring people to court and that if he couldn't hammer out a settlement that the cases should be dropped because the people had 'no money'. Getting a judgment and suspending their driver's license wasn't going to make money materialize. She doubled the caseload of some of the other lawyers and went about doing her job. The other firms had no problem picking up the extra work and amazingly money MUST grow on trees because when push comes to shove most people find ways of paying their bills.

Just a LONG post to say that lawyers are like any other profession and that sometimes it pays to get a second opinion. Took me 3 years and $40,000 to learn that lesson, luckily it saved me 60k in the end.

As to the original post. I would file the complaint myself writing it out in crayon on the back of the revolving courthouse door before I let something like that go by. But then again I'm rabid like that. In reality 98% of these things get settled with little more than 2 letters on someone's letterhead.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Harrison Shull, Photographer
Fayetteville, WV | Asheville, NC | | Posted: 3:36 PM on 04.09.10
->> Eric, what you say could be true but I do not think so in this case.

I did not go to some ambulance chasing attorney. I used a very prominent national IP attorney specializing in photo work who is mentioned here at SS and other forums all the time and who also travels to lecture and hold educational seminars for groups like the ASMP, EP, and other photo groups. This was not a wet-behind-the-ears attorney. This was a "rockstar" in the photo IP world by all public accounts.

I also did my homework behind the scenes and corroborated what the attorney discovered with regards to the financial health of the tiny publication in question. I was not offered any contingency payment plan by the attorney. I was told that I would need to pay as I go. I did the math and then based on the scared tone in the editor's voice when she called after getting the stern letter from my attorney and the next day FedEX of the licensing fee minus the overuse and penalty fees - I decided that the "message" had been received. I was paid for the actual image use. I scared the daylights out of a publisher/editor who saw the potential of her actions to destroy a magazine she had worked hard to nurture. I was out $2+k in penalty fees. I could spend many thousands to get the punitive damages allowable by law but the publishing LLC would simply decalre bankruptcy and disappear. Then I'd be standing in line with other creditors.

Don't get me wrong. I hate it. I am still pissed just reliving it now. I don't like that she got off the hook so to speak. I had done everything I was supposed to in order to protect myself. I had an expert IP attorney. Yet in the end, I was left with no good options. Why could I have not been infringed by a TimeWarner sized company? If you are going to be infringed, just don;t let it be by a small fish.

The lesson learned for me going forward is that if any small regional pub contacts me now, I get payment BEFORE I ship off files. All images are still registered and paperwork is still required.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Alan Herzberg, Photographer
Elm Grove | WI | USA | Posted: 7:00 PM on 04.09.10
->> Harrison is right. You are seldom going to recover anything for attorneys fees or punitive damages unless the case goes to trial and you win. Even routine court costs allowed by statute (filing fees, photocopies, process server fees, etc) are seldom recovered as part of a settlement. And then when you win, you still have to actually collect the money. It's not always there to be collected.

One party's right to recover actual attorneys fees and punitive damages is often what drives the other party to settle, but those fees and damages are not usually part of the settlement. In cases where a statute permits recovery of attorneys fees and punitive damages, I always advise my clients to assume they will never recover those things when deciding whether to proceed with litigation.

Harrison's experience is not at all out of the ordinary. One of the first things I want to know before I take a case is whether there is a defendant who is going to be able to pay the judgment if we win (or has enough to lose that settling has some appeal to them). An opponent with nothing to lose is pretty tough to bargain with and even tougher to collect from.

You know how they say in sports that some of the best trades are the ones that are never made. Same with lawsuits and the ones that are never filed.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Add your comments...
If you'd like to add your comments to this thread, use this form. You need to be an active (paying) member of SportsShooter.com in order to post messages to the system.

NOTE: If you would like to report a problem you've found within the SportsShooter.com website, please let us know via the 'Contact Us' form, which alerts us immediately. It is not guaranteed that a member of the staff will see your message board post.
Thread Title: Just because you have it doesn't mean you can sell it!
Thread Started By: Hal Smith
Message:
Member Login:
Password:




Return to -->
Message Board Main Index
Is your name on THIS list? ::..