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SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Way Too Much Time On Your Hands/Embarrased To Be Here
Rick Rickman, Photographer
Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 12:31 PM on 08.29.09
->> I personally don't care what side of the fence you are on with this thing. Photographers should get over their ego and insecurity issues and try spending more time taking pictures. Shoot more and talk less. I think you'll find that your skill sets will improve and you'll get more done. This has got to be "one of" the dumbest things I've ever seen written here and I've been here since the sites inception. Get over yourselves and do something productive with your lives.

Rick Rickman
 This post is:  Informative (24) | Funny (4) | Huh? (3) | Off Topic (1) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Anantachai Brown, Photographer
Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 12:34 PM on 08.29.09
->> soooooooo instead of going out shooting images, we are starting a 3rd thread???
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:08 PM on 08.29.09
->> These aren't the 'droids you're looking for. Go about your business....move along now........
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:07 PM on 08.29.09
->> Nah, Boyle is one of those internet spiders, crawls out from under his rock, sends nasty profane emails and scurries back in. Don't worry about it.
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 2:15 PM on 08.29.09
->> that explains the inappropriate. :)
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:38 PM on 08.29.09
->> Rick I always respect your opinions and you've been a standup guy and great contributor to the message board over the years. Thank you for your efforts.

If it were not for the people who take stands on issues, and sometimes a strong stand, we'd have no order and people who would just run roughshod over anyone. That means bad contracts, work for hire agreements, rights grabs, a lot of issues that are important to the people of the SS community and a many of those debates you were involved in and many people benefitted from your input. I know I have.

This issue that has been hotly debated is just another one that a great many people had strong opinions about. Many of the finer points of this are issues we deal with and we have less ground to stand on each day. Sooner or later, people are going to push back. It's unfortunate that what should have been a spirited debate turned ugly. Unfortunately, sometimes that happens. I guess you could say we all learned something from this.
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Baron Sekiya, Photographer, Photo Editor
Keaau | HI | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 08.29.09
->> Time to have the whole thing playout.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J---aiyznGQ
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David Manning, Photographer
Athens | GA | | Posted: 8:47 PM on 08.29.09
->> At the end of the day, covering Sports is much like the pecking order of playing sports. Pros, Minors, College and HS.

You're always going to have your star players, your every day players and your 'cup of coffee' players who are just happy to be here and probably wont get more than an at-bat or 2.

Are we elitist? Damm right. So is Major League Baseball and the National Football League. Not everyone is going to make it. (Hell, I may not make it even tho my dream is to photograph the Olympics.) Like in sports, you're not going to have everyone playing shortstop for the Yankees merely because they can buy the glove. Kids grow up in little league dreaming of being a World Champion but how many actually make the pros and even get the chance to play for a WFC? Simply having a 400 and a D3 doesn't mean you're going to be able to get a portfolio picture from the sidelines while you stand next to everyone else who has the same equipment, making the same picture, from the same angle.

Simply because you are given access and opportunity doesn't make for success - its what you do with it. Examine Matt Stairs and Johnathan Broxton. Broxton had the chance to take LA deep into the post season but he threw a 3-1 fastball to a guy looking for a 3-1 fastball and thus was born the legend of Matt Stairs. Stairs, 39, was waiting his whole life for that one fastball, to show what he can do in that situation. Likewise in our profession there are countless numbers of us who sweat and work ourselves to the bone just to get that one chance to prove that we can perform at the next level, in a pressure situation when the game is on the line.

I see both sides of this debate. You have the SS.com community, who toils endlessly for the best pictures you can make given opportunity and access and on the flip side, you have the "Happy to be here" guy who won a contest. (BTW less hand of god, shoot that from your knees and give me more context and you have a better picture IMO). I really wish the guy luck with his photos and i just hope he can get better given his opportunity. Enjoy your cup of coffee.

What bothered me was how the contest was marketed and how it addressed our profession and what we do. It made our sweat and blood and passion look cheap and how "Easy" it is to do what we do. Its not. Kelby's youtube ad made it seem like any lawyer with enough money could make photos good enough for a D1 sports program's media guide. Thats all fine and dandy, but thats not what we're about. We don't rely on photoshop, RAW files or any other technologies to make our photos. We shoot JPEG and transmit on the fly, we climb into catwalks to hang a remote while scared to death of heights. We leave 3 hours early for a home game a mile away merely to get a parking spot. We do what we have to do for the shot and nothing else is a consideration.

We're about the moment, we're about the passion, we're about getting the best out of any opportunity given, be it an inauguration, a D1 game or an awful grip-and-grin. We want the best. We demand the best. We expect the best.

I remember what a much older, wiser photographer said about protest photos from the WTO protests. Anyone could (and should) have been able to get a killer photo from that situation. But what can you do with a grip-and-grin? What can you do in a difficult situation?

What do we deal with? Deadlines. Transmitting. Editors expecting more than what the wires got. Cramped working spaces, bandwidth taken up by SportsComm people playing World of Warcraft (No, really....), and thousands of countless other little things. Seven-dollar-an-hour security guards saying "don't stand there" when the rules say you can. Alumni jumping in front of the lenses. Paycuts. Bad contracts. Sideline reporters. The rain.

So what irked me about Kelby's contest wasn't that he had it or there being another GWC trying to live his dream on the sidelines. It was that he somehow tried to make it seem like what we do is easy. Its nowhere near that.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:16 PM on 08.29.09
->> Come on David. Give it a rest. According to many emails I got a monkey can do my job. In fact, a STUPID monkey can do my job. I mean all I do is "twitch" my finger.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 08.29.09
->> okay, I was making a late night saturday night joke, taken from some emails I got....
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David Manning, Photographer
Athens | GA | | Posted: 10:02 PM on 08.29.09
->> Oh i thought it was funny as hell....
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 10:05 PM on 08.29.09
->> I think these types of discussions are great to have. This is a great place to discuss, even vent.

But there's discussion and there's ACTION. I'm surprised some took it upon themselves to mess with the contest by bugging FSU about it. That action seems over the top, particularly when you're talking about ONE relatively inconsequential college football game. It wasn't a policy adaptation. Wasn't the super bowl. Wasn't any kind of bowl whatsoever. Just an early season college football game.

Was it really worth this kind of line-in-the-sand approach for something so trivial in the grand scheme of things? I can't help but think it did far more harm than good, all things considered.

"Pick your battles" is the phrase that comes to mind.
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 10:17 PM on 08.29.09
->> "Shoot more and talk less."

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands if you can post that...
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David Manning, Photographer
Athens | GA | | Posted: 10:30 PM on 08.29.09
->> I'm suddenly looking for that 'Delete Post' button.....
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 10:45 PM on 08.29.09
->> David Harpe, no one at SS "messed with the contest". The contest was revoked because the party running the contest did not have prior approval of the FSU SID to conduct it. Had he asked permission first it most likely would of taken place.

I can assure you that the FSU football SID does not consult with nor care what some SS members may think. I mean come on, the SEC doesn't even seem to care what the media in general thinks and photographers as we all are reminded far too often are way at the bottom of the list in terms of media importance.

Not one person on this site, nor the site as a majority opinion, has the authority to grant or revoke a credential regardless of how we may feel about the issue.
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:33 PM on 08.29.09
->> can i get an "inappropriate" here?
anyone?
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 11:34 PM on 08.29.09
->> While reading through all the threads about this subject one thing kept going through my head over and over, and it was some very wise words my mom was fond of saying to me as I grew up,

"The more you stir it, the more it stinks".

I think it's time to let this one die out.
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 12:26 AM on 08.30.09
->> David Harpe, no one at SS "messed with the contest".

Jeff,
I'm going by what Kelby posted on his blog:
http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/6310

"We just got word that these photographers were so upset that some of them contacted Florida State University directly, and told them they were making a mistake by letting an amateur “run amok” on the sidelines. This was dangerous. It’s not a good decision. This “amateur” has no business on the sidelines, and they should pull his sidelines pass!

Apparently, these angry sports photographers were very convincing. Florida State felt they had no choice but to rescind his pass Now, Alex will not get to shoot on the sidelines at the Florida State game."

I don't think he'd make something like that up.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:50 AM on 08.30.09
->> Geez, why would he make something like that up? Could it be because he screwed the pooch when he took a credential and thought himself such an important part of the FSU fraternity he could use it for his own personal gain? I mean that's what I read. Several people posted this earlier, I find it hard to believe that a program such as FSU would even take into consideration what the "great unwashed" photo community thought. I have to say that all of the SID's in this area would be extremely pissed off if they found out I had used a pass for a contest...and yes they would surely yank that credential. So do I think he would make an attempt at damage control and blame SS members? Oh yes indeed I do. This of course is just my opinion and as I have been told recently no one cares what I think but that, is indeed, the beauty of the internet. 8)
PS: Mike I was going to give you an "inappropriate" but dammit you didn't say anything to get one!!! better luck next time!
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 1:20 AM on 08.30.09
->> stick around.
it won't be long.
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 1:52 AM on 08.30.09
->> Chuck,

I guess I'm just not as fast to call another professional a liar, even if he's not a professional in my line of work.

Kelby's not just a random guy you know - he's been around. I'm sure he values his reputation as much as anyone here. For me, that's enough to take him at his word unless proven otherwise.
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 5:33 AM on 08.30.09
->> OK, I want this to die as well. But, heh, I got swiped at for horse racing being so easy. Well, I am guessing there aren't many fans out there who will go through what my co-worker and I went through today to get this -
http://eclipsesportswire.spitfirephoto.com/viewphoto.php?&albumId=91279&ima...

Up at 3am. Drive to Saratoga. Sit 2 hours in a back up on the New jersey Turnpike. Get there. Play in the mud to set up remotes. Shoot all day in the rain. Turn around and drive back what should be five hours, but, well, it is New Jersey. Take a little longer. No worries, crop, caption, transmit on the air card. Take a power nap or two. Get home after 24 hours straight. Go to bed (right after I hit post).

I am not for the elitist thing. I don't feel entitled to anything just because I can do what I do. I feel like you get what you work for. And me and my co-worker (and damn good friend) worked very hard today.

There are a ton of folks on here who work just as hard or harder for the images they make. I don't think they feel entitled to anything, they just know the work and dedication they have to put in, to get the work product they want as a result. Sorry, that isn't a real sentence there....tired. Good night all and good night to this thread......
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 7:48 AM on 08.30.09
->> David,

Mike O(I forget his last name, sorry) the photographer for FSU who had the assistant credential and who Scott was working with stated those very facts himself. He also seemed to be a pretty decent guy from the emails I exchanged with him, though we may have agreed to disagree on a point or two.

Mike said the fault was his for not clearing this contest through FSU before the start of it. He's not blaming anyone at SS over it.

If Scott Kelby thinks an SID is going to make a decision because some photographers, most likely from out of state, may have sent some emails, I think he frankly needs to get away from the PS for a while and spend some time in the real world because as I said, no SID of a major athletic program is going to care or make policy amendments over it.
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:36 AM on 08.30.09
->> Jeff,

The SS members made FSU aware of the situation, now the credential is not available. If you want to continue to believe the Sports Shooter stuff had no impact on the contest, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:39 AM on 08.30.09
->> This thread should be locked. We're starting to eat our own dead.......
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 08.30.09
->> David, I think there is a difference between making the powers that be aware of a situation and having a direct influence upon that situation.

As Mike said himself, he went about running the contest the wrong way and didn't secure permission to do so first. Thats why its not happening, not because some as SS didn't agree and FSU wanted to keep SS members happy. FSU could care less about what SS members think. They don't take into account what I think, what you think, or even what Chuck Liddy think.

Heck, they don't even care what Scott Kelby thinks. A guy who writes photoshop books has nothing to do with FSU and/or SEC media policy.

Its irrelevant how FSU found out about it, be it directly from a SS member, or perhaps some Kelby supporter, or who knows however else. The action they took was going to be taken regardless.

Its like if you saw someone breaking into a house next door and called the police who came and arrested the criminal. Was in your fault that person got arrested ? No. That person got arrested because they were doing something that is against the law. The police did not arrest them because you called and told them to.

Or more specifically, lets say I'm illegally selling photos of NCAA athletes for commercial use. You find out about this and report the violation to the compliance office and the school yanks my credentials.

Can I blame you for my not being able to shoot any more games ? We I could but it would be foolish because the real reason I'm not shooting anymore games is because I was doing something I shouldn't of been.

Just because you might not like me and didn't want me be shooting wouldn't of been reason for them to revoke my credential. They don't care about your opinion or what you suggest they do. They simply take action based upon their own policy in regards to my actions.

Had I gotten approval from the licensing and trademark dept to be doing what I was doing ahead of time, it wouldn't matter if you reported me or not. I had approval and what you think wouldn't matter because as I said, your not making policy.

Its not anyone at SS's fault, its not Scott Kelby's fault, its not FSU's vault and its not the contest winners fault.

The only person at fault is Mike for giving away a prize that he didn't have approval to give away and as I mentioned before, he said the same thing and accepted the blame.

Why are we trying to place blame elsewhere ?
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:08 PM on 08.30.09
->> Really the more you stop, step back and think about this all, the more absurd it all becomes.

Someone who not one person on this forum even knows isn't going to go to a football game. That affects us how ?

How does his not being there affect me ? For that matter if he does goes how would that affect me ?

Even if I was going to be shooting that very game, how would 1 persons being really make a difference in what I'm there to do ?

How does his being there or not make a difference to any of us ? Can any person here give a supporting reason how your life is going to be any different regardless of if Alex from Virgina goes to a football game or not ?

Can any of the Scott Kelby followers give any reason for that matter ?

Can any of the angry people who have been sending us countless emails really say that their life is going to be directly affected by Alex attending or not attending ?

The one and only person who is affected is Alex. His being there or not affects him personally but it doesn't have anything to do with anyone else.

So when it really comes down to it, if the fact a total stranger may not go to a football game is the worst injustice you can find in the world today, you must live in a very different world than I do.

In the real world right now, as you read this there's a father of 4 who just lost his job. There is a wife who just learned her husband got diagnosed with cancer and who doesn't have health care. There is someone who is living on the street. There is a kid who's being abused at home and thousands of other examples just like this. Every single day in this country.

I'm all for those trying to fight the good fight and make the world a better place but is Alex going to a FSU game or not really a battle worth having ?

Its a shame that parties on both sides of the issue, both on SS and Kelby's site can't get behind issues such as health care with the same energy we put behind this one.

If we could spend probably 1/10th the effort we've put into debating this cause on something that matters we could make a real difference.
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 12:35 PM on 08.30.09
->> ...and again, I wonder how many of those who were so opposed to this contest would not have loved an opportunity like this when they were starting out.
Wireimage had a contest years ago where a lucky person was able to shoot a concert alongside Kevin Mazur, founding father of WI and probably the biggest entertainment/concert photographer's out there today. No one said anything about this. Oh, that's right...the same people who are against Scott's contest look down upon concert/entertainment shooters. How could I forget this?
Silly me!
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 1:08 PM on 08.30.09
->> Jeff,

You are SO right. I bow to your superior intellect. The Sports Shooter community had nothing to do with it. How could I have been so silly to think otherwise?
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 08.30.09
->> FOLKS PLEASE MOVE ON!! Rick Rickman was right.

After the 10 original post, from the very first thread like way back, this topic went from life support to plain dead.

Where are the moderators?? At times SS goes from informative, to silly to plain stupid. Hell, like a train with no brakes and not conductor.

SS board members please step up... at some point nuff said.

This is one of the reasons as to why newspapers photographers dont get the respect as other photographers in the industry.

And for the many folks in here who feel that they need to have the LAST WORD, please the more you talk the more you sound like a boy who has been treated badly. Just SHUT UP. WE ALL HAD ENOUGH!!
Instead lets ALL BRING good possitive information.

NOOOOOOOO MORE 2 COME!!

http://www.ManuelloPaganelli.com
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Bill Ross, Photographer
Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 2:13 PM on 08.30.09
->> *YAWN*
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Grant Blankenship, Photographer
Macon | GA | USA | Posted: 2:24 PM on 08.30.09
->> Anyone heard any rumors about a Nikon D700 replacement? Anyone?
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Kevin Seale, Photographer
Crawfordsville | IN | United States | Posted: 2:38 PM on 08.30.09
->> I don't have anything to contribute to this conversation that has not already been said several times so decided to look at it from a different angle.

I copied and pasted all the posts from the three threads into Word and deleted out the headers and footers from the posts to get some statistics.

Through Pag's 1:41 post:

Characters (With Spaces): 102,691
Characters: 84,197
Words: 18,940
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 3:10 PM on 08.30.09
->> + 1 Manuello!!

Deb, you are so right!!

Now....

The New Nikon Body will be.........

Canon will announce new bodies on September 1st!!

Let's put our efforts into something positive, learn from Thumper in Bambi....


"If you have nothing good to say, Say nothing at all"

How come a Cartoon Bunny has more common sense that some here??

FWIW, remember that with the state of the economy and the state of most newspapers and magazines, some staffers might find themselves on the side of Freelancers, without a Job and trying to do anything to get Credentials and Access to Major Sporting events!! Or do you really think that the Colleges, NBA, NFL, NHL and MLB will just give you credentials because you "USED TO WORK" at XXXXX Newspaper or Magazine and now Unemployed and freelance for the first time in 20 years?? Guess what??? The folks you are Dissing now will be there to welcome you to the world of "Freelancing"!!!

God, I'm so happy I don't have to deal with this Crap!!

I'll stick to doing what I do and sit back and read 10 threads on how freelancers trying to get access to Sporting events are screwing the Industry!!

Y
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Donald Page, Photographer, Assistant
Ruston | LA | USA | Posted: 12:30 PM on 09.01.09
->> we've all seen the people on the sidelines who "don't belong".

They just kinda gaze around with a goofy look on their face just happy to be down there. Its not like this guy is gonna be husseling around trying to get the best shot and get it submitted before you do. Hes just gonna be handing lenses to Scott, shooting the occasional shot just to say he did it, and taking pictures with cheerleaders.

Not worth all the uproar
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Joe Livingston, Photographer
Dallas | GA | USA | Posted: 7:03 PM on 09.01.09
->> Dang, I ran out of popcorn at Yamils's last post, I thought it was finally over..
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Thomas Hobbs, Photographer, Photo Editor
Tallahassee | FL | USA | Posted: 9:56 PM on 09.01.09
->> Wow. I have been away at Army OCS for the past couple of months and I can't believe what has just blown up. I shoot for FSU as well. I am friends with Mike Olivella. I have spoken with him about this issue and he once again told me he should have cleared it with Tina (SID) first, but that he has the second pass for his assistant and he was letting the winner use it. I really can't believe people called up our Sports Info dept to complain about this, especially people who DON'T EVEN SHOOT HERE. I had no problem with this contest, in fact I got my start by being allowed to come on the sidelines using an assistant pass. From what I have been told, only one of the other regulars shooters here at FSU had a problem with it, the one from the FSView who started the original post.

I hope it will be made up to the contest winner somehow. As if media outlets aren't looking hard enough to figure out how or why to cut photogs, we eat our own and those who aspire to be like us. Bravo.
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David Harpe, Photographer
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 10:09 PM on 09.01.09
->> Way Too Much Time On Your Hands/Embarrased To Be Here

I'm embarrassed that we're 2/3rds of the way through this thread and nobody has mentioned the misspelling in the thread title.
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:08 PM on 09.01.09
->> Spelling is overrated for some.
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Sam Morris, Photographer
Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 3:16 AM on 09.02.09
->> "Spelling is overrated for some."

Well, for those who don't want to be taken seriously.

In the interest of finishing off this (hopefully) last thread on one of the most inconsequential multiple posting/numerous threads I have seen: What did you shoot today?

I'll start.

I shadowed the newest member of the city council for a few hours then I went to chase photos, that were not to be had, of the ash and smoke from the LA wildfires - chasing a story that happened a couple days ago when I was off and busy with other things. Basically some crap photos that are serviceable. Nothing to be too proud of.

And then I talked to one daughter about standing up for herself if she saw someone else stealing her pencil again (start of middle school and a whole new ball game), we finished watching Persepolis and I broke down and let another daughter listen to my iPod in bed because she lost her MP3 player, with the condition that I would take it away at 10:30.

Now, if you are still concerned about the original post of these interminable threads (mea culpa, I have not read much of them but merely glanced over them), please continue reading below for my opinion.


































































Suckers. Get on with your life and career. And freaking deal with the impediments on the sidelines. It's part of the job, which isn't really a job because we get to take pictures and not lay tile or work on plumbing or work at Wal*Mart. I have done the grunt work in photography and other fields, so I do have the background to say - if you have a problem with it, get over yourselves because it could be a lot worse.

Just watch out for me when I decide not to collapse my monopod and start swinging is as I run down the sidelines.
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 10:42 AM on 09.02.09
->> look sam, you got an "inappropriate", and you're not me or chuck liddy!
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 09.02.09
->> Sam, I suggest you read the little thing at the bottom of the page...now that was pretty funny that is popped up after your comment

"How to use your monpod the RIGHT way! Learn here..."

8)
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:01 AM on 09.02.09
->> Sam, There are worst jobs out there!!


Remember, you could always be pumping out Porta-Potties in the middle of summer in Lake Havasu, AZ!!

So, enjoy what you do!! I do, every day for over 24 years!!

Y
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 09.02.09
->> Please let this thread DIE. All that can be said has been said and it started getting redundant in the middle of the second thread.
Thanks for playing though!
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 2:52 PM on 09.02.09
->> seriously? i tried my best to shove this thread into oblivion. i guess it bounced.

marc
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