Story   Photographer   Editor   Student/Intern   Assistant   Job/Item

SportsShooter.com: The Online Resource for Sports Photography

Contents:
 Front Page
 Member Index
 Latest Headlines
 Special Features
 'Fun Pix'
 Message Board
 Polls
 Educate Yourself
 Equipment Profiles
 Bookshelf
 my.SportsShooter
 Classified Ads
 Workshop
 Sponsors
 Special Offers
 Our Store
Contests:
 Monthly Clip Contest
 Student Contest
 Annual Contest
 Rules/Info
Newsletter:
 Current Issue
 Back Issues
 Subscribe
Members:
 Members Area
 "The Guide"
 Join
About Us:
 About SportsShooter
 Contact Us
 Terms & Conditions


Sign in:
Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features.

Name:



Password:







||
SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Embarrassed to be here
Aaron Bell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Belleville | ON | Canada | Posted: 10:19 AM on 08.27.09
->> I've been following the ongoing debate over Scott Kelby's sports shooter for a day contest.

Even though I've only been a member here for a very short period of time, I can't help but feel embarrassed about how this group has reacted to this contest. I saw a blog today from Kelby that FSU asked that the winner not to shoot a game because of immense pressure from this group.

I understand that people are trying to protect their livelihood in what some perceive as difficult times but do you really believe that the person that won this contest is going to be anything but professional in their behaviour while shooting this game?

The whole premise of the contest was to find someone with some talent and show them how the pros work - on the sidelines, in the media room and in editing their images after the fact. Personally, I think it's a great way to expose not only the contest winner, but also the thousands of other people (including many aspiring sports photogs) that read Kelby's blog to the way a pro should act while working on assignment.

I think it would have offered some real insight into the 'real world' of a sports photographer. Instead, we just look like we're trying to protect our little piece of the world at all costs and look down our noses at anyone that isn't there on assignment from SI.

The irony to me is that when you see the SEC or any other sport's body get together to try to limit YOUR access, you scream bloody murder.
 This post is:  Informative (20) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (3) |   Definitions

Michael Proebsting, Photographer
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 10:31 AM on 08.27.09
->> Aaron,

My guess is at the very least you will get a verbal spanking from Chuck Liddy regarding this thread.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (8) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 10:48 AM on 08.27.09
->> micheal-

expect an invoice for the cost to clean to coffee that traveled through my nose and into my laptop keyboard.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (4) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (3) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 08.27.09
->> Aaron,

There are many many ways to teach somebody how to behave on the sidelines without taking them to a NCCA D1A game.

This contest was never about education. It was about "the glory of it all."

--Mark
 This post is:  Informative (18) | Funny (0) | Huh? (2) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 11:09 AM on 08.27.09
->> Mark --- You summed up what many photographers have been saying to me about that contest in one line:
"This contest was never about education. It was about 'the glory of it all.'"

'Nuff Said!
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Stanton, Photographer
Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 11:32 AM on 08.27.09
->> Aaron, I guess if you feel that strongly about being here, you could always tender your resignation as a member. I agree with the other posters here.

This contest was a bad idea. The pros who regularly cover DIv. 1 and pro football have a difficult time shooting around the advertisements, coaches, cheerleaders and the VIPs. When I was shooting for a paper in Tucson and covering the University of Arizona's games, one of the VIPs, a sponsor, not even an alumni, stood on the sidelines next to the coach. Next to the coach, that's right.

There are so many people down on the field trying to do jobs it's like an obstacle course. Then you want to throw in a contest winner so he can experience what the pros do. Space is precious at these events. I wonder how these people would feel if we showed up where they work and were seated in their chair when they arrived for work? Do you suppose they would have a problem with that?
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (3) |   Definitions

Brad Moore, Photographer
Weston | MA | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 08.27.09
->> This was discussed quite a bit in the earlier threads but the analogy would be "What if you showed up at their work and were seated in their chair having been invited to do so by the office manager".

Aaron, I actually decided to become a member due in part to the previous threads. I had emailed a few people about how disappointed I was to see such malevolent behavior from some members. In response several people agreed and reminded me that if I joined, I could inject my own views on different topics and that was the catalyst to get me to apply.

Don't let one subject or one group of people get you put off of the whole site. We're all not going to agree on everything but there are lots of good people and good information here.
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:52 AM on 08.27.09
->> Aaron, this site has something like 10,000 members I believe last time I heard (maybe far higher these days ?)

There has been 3 or 4 threads, with about 100 or fewer unique members posting their opinions.

I would hardly think it fair to lump all SS members into a given viewpoint based upon what an opinionated group of 1% of members said on a discussion forum about a topic they felt strongly about.

Did it occur to you as well that perhaps for every member such as yourself who feels embarrassed this community wasn't welcoming a contest winner with open arms, there could be another member who feels embarrassed that any SS member would think such a contest was a good idea ?

I'm not saying any one viewpoint is more valid, but the fact you personally disagree with another members viewpoint does not make that viewpoint wrong. I could argue I'm embarrassed a SS member would start this thread.

As Jeff said as well, if your embarrassed to be a member here, no longer be one. No one forces anyone to be a member it, its a choice and a privilege. Actions speak louder than words. If you don't like the mentality or opinions you think are indicative of SS members as a whole, don't be a member here.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Clay Carson, Photographer
Little Rock | Ar | USA | Posted: 11:55 AM on 08.27.09
->> I think it would be cool to find someone sitting in my chair if they were there to see what my day is like, maybe learning something new. I am sure I would learn from them as well.

Aaron,

This is a good group of people dedicated to their profession. For the most part, they feel very strongly that this contest is not a good idea. You may not agree with them now, but you probably will on future issues. Give it a chance.

Clay
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

David Meyer, Photographer
Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 12:15 PM on 08.27.09
->> If the following actually occurred, do I have permission to be embarrassed about it?

"I received countless hate e-mails from Sportshooter members and was called every name in the book (and told by some that they would “look me up” on their next visit to Tallahassee)."

Source:
http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/6321
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 12:19 PM on 08.27.09
->> I just posted the following on Scott Kelby's blog:

Young photographers learn their trade by shooting local events for local publications and then, as is common in every other profession, gradually stepping up to higher levels of their trade as they become proficient at the previous level.

Top-level athletic events are increasingly crowded with people who are there because they “know somebody.” There really is not enough room for all of the people who have professional reasons to be there, let alone those who are there simply for the fun of the experience.

I’m sure that a SportsShooter member who lives near the winner would be happy to take him to a local high school or similar game and teach them about how to shoot football.

Who is the winner and where does he or she live?

Mark Loundy
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Aaron Bell, Photographer, Photo Editor
Belleville | ON | Canada | Posted: 12:20 PM on 08.27.09
->> Don't get me wrong - I love this site and the information that gets shared. I just felt embarassed about being lumped in as part of the group that pressured the SID into revoking the credential.

I would say that for a lot of us, this profession is about 'the glory of it all'.

It sure isn't about the money or great hours that we get to keep. For most of us, it's our passion that gets us to invest thousands of dollars into equipment and spend thousands of hours honing our craft for the hope of getting enough work to make a reasonable living.

I consider myself very lucky that I get to do something I love for a career.

It just seems that when you read the rules of the contest and understand the spirit of it that some of us sound a lot like we're just trying to protect our turf.

It was clear that this person was going to be taking the spot of an already accredited assistant so it was never an issue of having more people on the sidelines.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Stanton, Photographer
Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 08.27.09
->> The latest posted on SK blog today about all the hateful photographers here.
http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 12:50 PM on 08.27.09
->> Jeff --- Haven't read that blog, but I have been getting a lot of "hate mail" from people that are obviously fans of the site and have entered that contest...
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Harvey Dunn, Photographer
Southlake (Dallas) | TX | USA | Posted: 12:52 PM on 08.27.09
->> OK... I've remained silent here up to this point - and normally my discretion keeps me from getting involved in this sort of fire fight, but sometimes you just have to have a say. And lest anyone doubt it, I have an IQ above 5 and thus do fully understand the issues... on both sides. I've also experienced the crowding at D1 games and heck, yeah, it's crowded on the sidelines. Having said that, I've been to high school games with more people on the sideline than many D1 games - including parents, kids and infants... in lawn chairs!

Anyway, to the point, I am (and continue to be) a bit perplexed by the level of outrage being expressed here and elsewhere by sportsshooter members. I am sure that you all know that this is not the first contest of this sort. Far from it. Remember Canon's "Shoot like a Pro"?

Now, I don't recall anything comparable to the level of vituperativeness (my vocabulary word of the day) of the current discussion when Canon had their "Shoot Like a Pro Contest" in 2007, or when they did it again last season (See
http://www.usa.canon.com/app/html/NFL/slap.html?team=cowboys). And oh my goodness, they're even doing to do it again this year: http://www.dallascowboys.com/canon/

(Oh the shame of it all - sure glad I shoot Nikon!)

Seriously, help me out... where's the difference... Any volunteers want to disclose the number of emails they've sent publicly or privately to Canon (or the Cowboys or any other pro team or to the NFL) about that contest or the comparable contests Canon has run in prior years? [Lest there be any doubt, the winners do shoot DURING the game. See, e.g.,
http://www.newyorkjets.com/canon]

IF safety is really the issue, then I would think the level of danger would be an order of magnitude greater for a pro game versus a D1 game. So, where's the public outcry, where are the petitions to Canon, to the Cowboys or the Jets, to the NFL, the press, to Congress, etc. Surely if safety were a concern, we'd all have a duty to our fellow human beings to do everything we can do to immediately stop such a practice! Hey... all Canon shooters could drop out of CPS or better yet, all pro's could boycott the next Cowboys game... that'd work! Or maybe not...

And, yes, it's about the glory... of course... That's why Canon has the contest (well... duh). But, so what. It's also about giving someone who normally wouldn't have access a chance to show what they can do. Could this be a person's "big break"? Perhaps...

[In this regard and as an aside, I believe that there is even a member of Sportsshooter who won a similar Canon contest several years ago and who now frequently shoots pro sports events -- and in my opinion, does so with skill and professionalism. How did that access and the "fame" of winning help the photographer advance to where they are shooting pro contests? I have no idea, but I suspect that it didn't hurt. (More important though, clearly, is the fact that the photographer is a damn good photographer.)]

Is one extra body on the sidelines at one relative obscure D1 game going to make a difference? Not in the least. If someone really wants a target, go after Canon and the NFL. Bottom line, from my perspective, the more the attacks on Kelby, et al, go on, the worse all members here look.

And telling someone who voices an opinion that they can always "tender their resignation"... well, did anyone think he didn't know that... or was that a less than polite way of saying "shut up - or get out of here"?

I too am embarrassed.

With best regards... and back to my cave...
 This post is:  Informative (29) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

John Germ, Photographer
Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 08.27.09
->> Harvey,
If I may - I'd like to make one correction to your excellent post. There wasn't going to be one extra body on the sideline. The winner was taking the place of an assistant that would have already been there. So there was not going to be any increase in people. A fact a number of people still want to gloss over.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jim Redman, Photographer
Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 1:06 PM on 08.27.09
->> Well said Harvey.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Melissa Wade, Photographer
Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 1:15 PM on 08.27.09
->> Is it specific to the contest that the credential was revoked, because if the SID learned that the photographer is bringing his legal clients to games using his assistant credential I would think the credential would be revoked for all games, not just the contest game (and if I were the SID, it'd be both - assistant & photographer - credentials).

I found that (the misuse of the assistant credential) far worse than the contest and the fact that the photographer would do that doesn't exactly give anyone faith that the contest winner would be properly educated on sideline etiquette.
 This post is:  Informative (7) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Stanton, Photographer
Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 08.27.09
->> >>From SK's blog: Congratulations. You were able to steal Alex’s dream of shooting a big time game from the sidelines.

These (above) are Scott Kelby's words.

I have read a number of posts and received hate mail, one in particular this morning who declined to sign his name to the post, from the SK bloggers. The contest, if I'm not mistaken, was for the winner to have the opportunity to shoot at a big time Div. 1 school, FSU.

Who would enter a contest that would provide the winner the opportunity to be an assistant?

Harvey, I appreciate your post and you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you for sharing with us. Believe me, people have complained to the NFL and Canon about contests. They've also complained to the NBA and to the NCAA about shooting and rights' policies.

The most recent firestorm involving the SK contest seems like the straw that broke the camel's back. You've got people sitting on the sidelines on sofas, in recliners, on the bench with the teams, and photographers there trying to do a job have actually been asked to move so these people who won a contest could see.

Everyone is worried about the rights of the contest winners, but nobody gives a didly about the people who have to earn a living by dodging and working around the cell phone photographers and people lounging on furniture that belongs in a living room, not on the sidelines.

And now, we all learn that the SK contest was never supposed to be about some amateur shooting the game, only being an assistant to a shooter who always has had two credentials. The contest was never, to my knowledge, advertised like that. It was about shooting the game, and i refer back to SK's own words quoted at the beginning of this post.
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jon L Hendricks, Photographer
Hobart | IN | USA | Posted: 1:31 PM on 08.27.09
->> I really don't want an amateur photog who doesn't make a living from photography to be shooting side by side with me. I don't think it's a big deal if they are actually an assistant and stay on the butt of a seasoned photog though. I just don't want them taking up space where I could be shooting. My time and space where I shoot are valuable. I don't even like AP/Getty or anyone getting in my way when my butt is on the line. If I'm not involved in shooting something that can make me money I'll be happy to help you out, show you around, and discuss the world of photography with you.
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Nic Coury, Photographer
Monterey | CA | | Posted: 1:32 PM on 08.27.09
->> I only read about a third of the comments on the recent post before I got fed up after reading this one:

"Pro sports shooters, your jobs are getting phased out due to technology just like millions of people who have in various other professions, get over it and find another career if you’re that scared and can’t adapt to this one."

*Shakes head.* Wow...

I "like" how people assume just because they have access to similar or better equipment than the full-time, working pros, that automatically means they can do the same level of work.

I think back to a recent 3-thread discussion about credentials...
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:35 PM on 08.27.09
->> Bingo Melissa!

"The contest" (reminds of a certain Seinfeld episode of the same name lol) was not ended by the fact some photographers, who may have been SS members contacted the FSU SID. I was ended because the photographer in charge of the contest was improperly using his assistant credentials.

A few, likely out state, photographers sending an email is not going to influence a SID or schools credential policy. I only wish it was that easy in some cases but its not.

While the opinions of SS members might be disagreeable to some, they are not at fault in ending the contest.

The contest had a "prize" being given by someone who felt they had the authority to make such a decision and they were wrong. They did not clear it with the SID ahead of time and just assumed since its never been an issue in the past who they brought, they could therefore give that assistant credential as a contest prize. The schools SID obviously felt otherwise.

Having a contest for a second credential is no different than giving your second credential to a spouse or friend or law client, or outright selling it. Just because its been granted to you does not mean you therefore have the right to use it as you personally see fit.
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 1:36 PM on 08.27.09
->> What the heck, I'll throw more fuel on the fire. I agree, but I also disagree. There are many forces at play here that just cannot seem to coexist. I get the part about people working hard and being trained. I get that to get access you should earn it on some level. But is it really about an extra body or not?

What I also see is a little bit resistance to recognize the evolving landscape of photojournalism in the digital and online age. There are tons of great shooters out there who are willing to contribute to, what shall I call it, the overall body of work for photographic sports reportage. Not every photographer has to have come from J-school.

This is a good and bad. It means more good shooters. But, it also means these folks do not necessarily have any of the other tools in their bag of a true storytelling photojournalist. This idea wanders into the "more photographers for less money" argument that is in a dozen threads.

There has to be bridge. There has to be a way to involve someone who might have all the skills and/or just couldn't go to Missouri or Western Kentucky or Ohio of Syracuse or Brooks or wherever else to break into this field.

That being said...the winning photo was not deserving. You want to show you can perform, it takes more than a pretty photo TAKEN AT PRACTICE. This is my guess. There is no way that ball is a game ball - check the link (
http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2009/archives/6241#more-6241 ) There are some nice images in there, but, sorry, I can't support a practice photo.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (2) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 1:43 PM on 08.27.09
->> i probably missed a really important point earlier, but since the fellow was simply doubling as an assistant- or at least using the shooter's 'assistant credential', why is the point being made that there are already too many people on the sidelines? he is not adding to, but playing the part of someone who would have been there anyway, right?

there have been many threads here that discuss how sports photography is actually NOT about the glory of it all. sports shooters always seem to be explaining to 'outsiders' how difficult the job really is. they talk about long hours, weather, deadlines and all the stress associated with these elements. sounds like kelby wanted to offer a shadow opportunity, so an amateur could actually experience not only the feeling of shooting in that environment (glory of it all), but to see the rest of it.

not trying to generate too many inappropriates...but how is this contest bad? sounds like the only real downside is that kelby wouldn't have an experienced assistant. obviously, he doesn't mind. why would somebody oppose this?
 This post is:  Informative (2) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Richard Denham, Photographer
Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 1:53 PM on 08.27.09
->> Oh, my turn.

I really do not see the big deal here. It's one guy/girl, winning a contest who gets to see the reality of sports photography. Whether it's about the "glory of it all" or about "education" doesn't matter. what matters is that some poor schmuck is gonna be dragged around a D1 game by Scott K and realize that he should keep his lens pointed at his kids because being a "sports shooter" ain't all it's cracked up to be. The will find out that their is "no glory" and that in itself is education enough to 'Johnny Photog' who happened to get a great pick of his kid playing pop warner.

Sometimes I do begin to think that this whole sports photography thing is a bit of an "old boys" club. Always the same people complaining about the same things. Times change, either adapt and become better at what you do so no one will disrupt your chain of hierarchy, or sit an complain about it until the next young gun takes your gig right out from under your nose. There is no doubting that there are more and more uncle bob's and sally shooters out there, how can there not be with the price of cameras being so cheap. Deal with it. So what if some wanna be photog is going to be on the sidelines of a D1 game, it happens all the time, the only problem here is that someone decided to profit from it and make it into a contest.

Maybe the real reason here is that some of the "professionals" are jealous of Scott, jealous that they chose him instead of you for the contest.
 This post is:  Informative (4) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Harvey Dunn, Photographer
Southlake (Dallas) | TX | USA | Posted: 2:10 PM on 08.27.09
->> Scott,

I've been to enough soccer games (high school and select) to know that the game ball is often not pristene. On many ooccasions, particularly in select soccer, I've seen the ref reject the "game" ball and then accept a player's "practice" ball thrown in from the sideline.

Here's an old, not-that-great of a picture of a 5A high school playoff game where the ball was a bit "questionable":

http://ghdunn.smugmug.com/photos/140063917_bhMPG-XL-LB.jpg

Bottom line, you could be right, but I don't think there's enough evidence to conclude that the shot was not made during a game.

With best regards...
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:30 PM on 08.27.09
->> After reading the blog post Jeff shared, you have to give Scott Kelby credit for one thing -- he's oustanding at playing the martyr and portraying himself as a crusader for the little guy. I haven't felt so bad since NASA crushed my dreams of being an astronaut just because I'm too old, too big and have no training, though I used to build model rockets. I guess they're just too busy trying to protect their livelihood.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (3) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Carlos Delgado, Photographer
Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 08.27.09
->> Good lord.
 This post is:  Informative (5) | Funny (2) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Richard Denham, Photographer
Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 2:38 PM on 08.27.09
->> "I haven't felt so bad since NASA crushed my dreams of being an astronaut just because I'm too old, too big and have no training, though I used to build model rockets. I guess they're just too busy trying to protect their livelihood."

Jeff, same thing happened to me at NASA. I decided to become a photographer instead when I realized you didn't need years of training to be good, sometimes people are just naturally talented.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matthew Sauk, Photographer
Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 2:40 PM on 08.27.09
->> I am still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that FSU is a really big Division I school!?! :)
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (9) | Huh? (2) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

Steven Ickes, Photographer
Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 2:59 PM on 08.27.09
->> Honestly, I haven't earned the right to be embarrassed for this community or any single individual member. If I did ever find myself embarrassed to be a part of something I think I would simply choose not to belong.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:17 PM on 08.27.09
->> One of the things I love about this site are the people who decide it's okay to totally "bitch slap" us "professionals" who get up every day and shoot assignments, good or bad, big time events or community events, silly or serious. Make us out to be whiners because we get "upset" about the seemingly unfettered access some schools decide to allow on the sidelines or baselines at the larger events (which are already overcrowded). I guess I just get tired of posting this but some of you folks never have and never will understand what we (full time photojournalists) are talking about. This is not so unlike the threads about ethics. Just as the people who don't get the ethics situations we have to abide by many of the same folks don't understand the whole uproar about credentialing.
If anything, the thing that truly embarrasses me are the posters who think just because they own a high end digital camera you can do what us "professionals" can. I think the truth of this whole matter is not that working photojournalists are "afraid" of the part time GWC's it's that there is an overload of jealous wannabee GWC's who think they are the best thing since the D3. I've said it before and I'll say it again, sorry if the truth hurts, BUT, just because you:
a)own a top of the line digital camera
b)have a cute spiffy website and
c)are a dues paying member of SS
d)doesn't mean you can do my (or our) job.
sorry, that is a fact.
 This post is:  Informative (10) | Funny (1) | Huh? (4) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 08.27.09
->> I wonder how many of you here would have jumped at a chance like this when you were first starting out as young photographers.

So flame away because last week I brought with me a young student photographer to shoot a concert. This young man is so passionate about photography, never shot a concert but wanted to try and I was thrilled I was able to get him a credential. When I was starting out I had no one to help me, no one to go ask advice, and I made a lot of mistakes. The chief photographer at my first newspaper in Amsterdam, NY took a chance on me, this kid who had passion and drive and wanted nothing more than to be a photographer. I have continued to pay it forward and will do so any chance I get. The only thing I tell them is to be careful of those photographers around them and to try your best to stay out of their way.

I find it amazing how many people have posted about this subject yet how many threads are there about agencies that are selling images-YOUR images, for $5. It doesn't even come close. And to me, THAT hurts our profession A LOT more than someone winning a contest and being able to shoot a game.
 This post is:  Informative (18) | Funny (0) | Huh? (2) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Dave Doonan, Photographer
Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 3:29 PM on 08.27.09
->> The Bottom line is...
I agree with a majority of you I don't think a contest is the best way for a person to get to the sidelines. Before I worked at the paper, I would stand in the stands, behind the fence or in another area where working press were not. With the paper job, I got beyond the "velvet rope" and was part of a fraternity who are "privileged" to shoot sports.
I don't fault the winner, Alex Walker, who i'm sure is a capable photographer, I fault Scott Kelby with the ego to put on this type of dog and pony show.
Now the thing that ticks me off, is that Walker won the right, and NOW they take it away. I feel sorry for him in a way, but if you want the access, you have to work hard and make the contacts.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Nic Coury, Photographer
Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:30 PM on 08.27.09
->> Well put Chuck.

I'm a full-time working professional PJ. It's the ONLY way I earn my living and good days, or bad, I LOVE it to death.

Not that I'm looking for glory or whatever, I just don't appreciate people who think they can do our jobs, because they may take good frames here and there.

We put out every Thursday and if I don't like a photo I shot or misspell a caption, it bothers me for a bit, even if the cover story photos were awesome.

It' s a cut-throat job with A LOT of different variables that creates a successful image (captions, waiting around, loads of other bad frames, loooong hours, etc., etc). As Chuck put it, some people get it and some don't.

I do love the profession and everyday is a new adventure in its exciting journey.

Just my two cents...

~ n
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Dave Doonan, Photographer
Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 08.27.09
->> by the way, I'm proud to be a member!
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Dave Doonan, Photographer
Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 3:37 PM on 08.27.09
->> Chuck,
I agree with you totally.
Doesn't it make you mad when some guy comes in off the street with a point and shoot with some image he thinks is great for the paper?
I mean I love to shoot features, but you have to also shoot the mundane stuff like check passings, the biz page, school page, or some lame shot the editor needs.
nowadays EVERYONE thinks they are photojournalists.
thanks CNN and the ireport, you tube and user generated content!
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:42 PM on 08.27.09
->> Debra, to play a bit of devils advocate here, what if everyone in the working media starting bringing students, friends, contest winners etc to assignments such as sporting events or concerts ?

Nothing against this young man, but does passion alone warrant getting someone special access and free entrance into an event that otherwise charges the rest of the general public to attend ?

I've got 5 or 10 close friends who are all very passionate photographers and very skilled, who remind me time and time again how much they'd like shoot an Ohio State game or shoot (fill in the blanks) concert.

They aren't working media, just people who really enjoy photography and would really like trying something new and different.

Would it be right though for me to bring a friend simply for that reason though ?

To me that sort of is like saying simply because your passionate about something you should get special privileges.

You love music and photography ? Well your in luck since because you love BOTH those things, we are going to let you in free and also let you shoot the show. Those who simply are music fans alone though must pay for a ticket.

If I loved eating and was very passionate about cooking would I be able to expect to get a free meal at a given restaurant ?

It just seems like some people feel having a camera or interest in photography means the world needs to cater to them so they can continue to practice and enjoy their hobby.
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Richard Denham, Photographer
Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 3:53 PM on 08.27.09
->> Chuck

Here's my problem. There was a contest, people entered, somebody one, people complained, somebody now loses.

Do you personally know that the winner thinks he can do your job. How do you know he wasn't just some proud dad who grabbed a great shot of his kid one day that in turn won him a contest. He was looking forward to getting next to professional athletes and having a story to tell his kids. Now that's gone because a bunch of people felt threatened by him being there "running amok" on the sidelines because he is an "amateur"

Would everybody on this site who has been up in arms and pissed all over this contest continue to be up in arms if it was just a sideline pass, not a photo cred. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no, why, because he wouldn't have had a camera in his hand. Gimme a break, it's the dream of a lifetime for 75% of the male population to be on the sidelines of a big game.

And just in case you are wondering
a) I own three, not one
b) I do have a spiffy website
c) I do pay my ss dues
d) Yes I do the same job as you so I do have the right IMHO to comment about the situation
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (1) |   Definitions

Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:58 PM on 08.27.09
->> As I read it the guy got the credential pulled because the contest dude never told the SID he was basically auctioning off a credential for a contest.

"it's the dream of a lifetime for 75% of the male population to be on the sidelines of a big game. "

I say tough luck on that my friend. We all have dreams, 99% of them never are fulfilled. So I should be crying about that? I'm not whining because I haven't won the lottery.
and what newspaper do you work for full time?
I must have missed that on your member page.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (2) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (6) |   Definitions

Richard Denham, Photographer
Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 4:14 PM on 08.27.09
->> Mr Liddy

Why would someone winning a contest make everyone go out and piss all over the the whole idea. Again, if it was simply a sideline pass would you be so adamant against the fact he would be there. As you said in your post 'I'm not whining because I haven't won the lottery.' So whats the difference between him winning that contest and someone winning a lottery, a camera. So yes if it has nothing to do with the fact that he would be on the sidelines with a camera, then maybe you should also be whining about not winning the lottery.

Oh and you didn't miss anything on my member, I don't work for a paper, only freelance for them. I actually have my own photography business with many clients including dailies, wires, & magazines. I also work for a hockey team & the league they play in, as well as a University. So no I am not a full time newsy, but I am a full time photographer who does do a lot of PJ work
 This post is:  Informative (4) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

John Germ, Photographer
Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 4:24 PM on 08.27.09
->> I'm trying to follow all the arguments against the contest here:

Argument 1: it's adding to a crowded sideline
argument is irrelevant as already established the winner was going to use an existing pass given to an assistant

Argument 2: the winner will run amok on the sidelines
again the winner was going to work as an assistant to an experienced photographer - is there really still an argument he was going to run amok?

Argument 3: a GWC thinks he can do the job of a photojournalist.
For this specific instance is there any indication the winner thought that?

So far, none of the above 3 really seem to apply to this specific situation. Other situations, sure. But not THIS specific one. So, given the fact there was not going to be any increase in sideline traffic, and given the fact the winner was going to be on a leash (more or less) to the working pro and given there was no evidence the winner thought they could take a PJs full time job and there's no evidence they were going to give away photos for free, what exactly is the complaint about THIS SPECIFIC situation?

Again, trying to avoid generalities and other situations. Basically a guy gets to play pro sports photography assistant for a day. Doesn't sound like he was going to interfere with the real pros any more than an assistant aready would. Or if I'm wrong, please explain the concern of how this guy would?

So if he's not hurting the industry (like guys giving away work for credentials) and not interfering in another pros ability to do their job, what precisely is the big complaint FOR THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION?

I realize I'm not a full time working pro. But the "your not one of us so you can't understand" argument isn't playing well IN THIS INSTANCE. Forget other instances, lett's deal with this specific one. Knowing what we know now about how the contest winner was going to be working - what's the gripe?
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Steven Ickes, Photographer
Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 4:26 PM on 08.27.09
->> Its my dream to own an Enzo Ferrari. Unfortunately, according to Ferrari, I don't qualify no matter how much money I might have. :)
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (2) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (2) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Philip Bowen, Photographer
Kampala | UG | Uganda | Posted: 4:33 PM on 08.27.09
->> just because you:
a)own a top of the line digital camera
b)have a cute spiffy website and
c)are a dues paying member of SS
d)doesn't mean you can do my (or our) job.

Chuck,
a) they have an iphone
b) they use twitpic
c) they don't pay for anything online
d) they *are* doing your job

They aren't doing it as well, if by "well" I mean well-composed, thoughtful, evocative, ethical, grab-you, story-telling moments that make one go back and look at the image again and again. But a large percentage of the 300M Americans don't care. Or don't know that they should.
 This post is:  Informative (5) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeffrey Furticella, Photo Editor, Photographer
Charlotte | NC | US | Posted: 4:34 PM on 08.27.09
->> Bear with me here, but I'm a little confused on this one.

I didn't keep up with the other threads that were dedicated to this contest, but from what I gather:

Scott Kelby hosted some sort of contest where amateur photographers submitted photos for a contest and the winner would get a chance to go to an FSU game, right? The winner would accompany Mike Olivella, who after looking at his website seems to be a perfectly fine professional photographer, as an assistant and attend the game. Olivella gets to choose his assistant every game using the second credential he is always given, so for this one instance he was making that credential available to the winner of the contest. The winner had to be 21 or older, so it wasn't a young kid, would have to show some sort of aptitude for photography by winning the contest, and would be performing the duties of an assistant. No extra bodies are created on the sideline, winner stays by the photographer's side, carries gear, and learns the ropes.

So members here are all hot and bothered that an amateur photographer of a mature age wins a contest to be a runner and gear mule for a photographer at an FSU game?

Would you guys have reacted this way if you found out that Mike Olivella normally takes his drinking buddy as his assistant to carry his gear and run sidelines with him? Or his dentist? Or his neighbor? Or dog walker? Would you have called FSU to alert them to the travesty that he was using his assistant credential on someone that hasn't been shooting professionally and making their full income off of their photography and told them to pull that credential? This to me seems completely ridiculous.

I'm no seasoned veteran, but I've covered my share of games, I got my start assisting pro games when I was at a very amateur level, and I know plenty of photographers that are much more road tested than I am. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be an assistant at a football game. You have to be able to carry heavy equipment, be responsive to direction, and know how to stay the hell out of the way. That's it. Don't make it out to be more than it is at the most basic level. Hell I've known photographers that take their kids as assistants to games.

There's a lot of chest beating that goes on in these message boards about how the only photographers that belong on a sideline are these war-weary photojournalists. Just because you
a)have spent 10+ years at a newspaper
b)use camera gear bearing the glory scars of chipped paint and weathered stains from being beaten and battered on daily assignments
c)are a dues paying member of SS
d)doesn't mean you're any more talented, more ethical, more professional, more righteous than anyone else. A newspaper job is what it is...a job. Your place of employment isn't what sets you apart, it's how you carry yourself.

I'd like to shout out Debra's post because I find it to be spot-on (like I generally do.) When I was starting out, I was extremely fortunate to have lucked into a situation where a director of photography took a chance on a beyond amateur, no skill, no portfolio KWC (kid with camera). From there, that director of photography went on to a sports shooting position, and once again gave me a shot as an assistant, when I was still very amateur, didn't know much about professional sports photography, and was fairly gear ignorant. And you know what? After all that, it's helped shape where I'm at a great deal, and I owe a great deal to that photographer and to others like him that have really stuck their neck out for me. From my experiences as a gear mule, progressing to grip assistant, and then being able to shoot on my own, I learned a tremendous amount about how to study the action in front of me, how to be prepared for a game, how to fully deliver on an assignment, and how to carry myself as a professional on a sideline.

It seems to me lately that in these entitlement threads, where grizzled veterans bemoan this supposed widespread belief of all the young amateurs out there that they should be able to shoot the Super Bowl because they own a digital camera, the underlying theme is that these photographers have put in their time, souped their film, ran canisters, got coffee, spent years shooting pet of the week and kids day at the library, and some have never gotten to that level, and never will, and because of that some punk shouldn't get there before them.

But life isn't fair. And no two career paths are the same. Some photographers spend their whole careers grinding it out and never make it to that major metro, or that high profile game, or that multi-thousand dollar freelance contract. Others get out of college and land immediately at that major metro, or find themselves at the Super Bowl in no time, or shooting regularly for huge commercial clients. Does it make one photographer better than the other? Or more right than the other? No, they're just different.

Newspapers are shutting down, internships are drying up, and jobs are getting harder and harder to come by. Any opportunity a photographer can come by, especially a young, inexperienced one, that will give you any sort of advantage, or extra training, or a new experience, should be pounced on. Anything less and you're just doing a disservice to yourself.

I know I've benefited greatly from the opportunities I've been given, and I hope that should I be lucky enough to reach the lofty perch of working professionals that have been in the industry for 10+ years that I will extend myself to other developing professionals instead of telling them to get off my damn lawn.

- furt
 This post is:  Informative (12) | Funny (0) | Huh? (1) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Nic Coury, Photographer
Monterey | CA | | Posted: 4:44 PM on 08.27.09
->> I'm a full-time pro and just got denied a credential to cover an NFL game.

Granted my situation and need to cover the game was different than most papers and media orgs that usually cover NFL, but oh well, I tried. Not the end of the world.

I emailed the PR rep back and told him thank you for his response to my request and I appreciated his helpfulness.

Oh well.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 08.27.09
->> I guess one of the reasons I responded to this thread is because it seems that in the last couple of weeks there have been several threads blasting the working PJ's for the woes of other "photographers". I'm sorry if my posts come off harsh sometimes, but just so you all know it's frustrating to read all these threads where it seems just because we still luckily have jobs, we're the bad guys. Trust me, in this day and age just shooting acceptable photos is not enough to keep your job. I guess the thing that bothers me the most about this thread is that it completely jumped the tracks. I read that FSU pulled the credential NOT because of the complaints (although the complaints did bring attention that a credential was being used as a contest prize) That's not on any SS member, newspaper photographer or loser of the contest. It's on the promoter. And just to be clear, I'm still trying to find out where anyone who disagreed with this whole sideline credential issue said only "photographers that belong on a sideline are these war-weary photojournalists".
that's crap. I never read that in anyone's post. period.
anyone that covers D1 knows it will never happen. making up generalization statements like that are just plain wrong.
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (4) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 5:14 PM on 08.27.09
->> chuck- you're going on again about being a full-timer at small market daily. what gives?

your words:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, sorry if the truth hurts, BUT, just because you:
a)own a top of the line digital camera
b)have a cute spiffy website and
c)are a dues paying member of SS
d)doesn't mean you can do my (or our) job.
sorry, that is a fact.

sorry is right. that statement is NOT a fact, it is your opinion. i HAVE those first three things, and i DO do your job- and not in the 27th largest market. i mean no offense to you personally what-so-ever...nor did i in the last silly thread, but my lord.

the only difference between you and any of the quality freelancers here and everywhere, is that two words could leave you with nothing. no income, no cameras, no images. what else is different?
 This post is:  Informative (10) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (10) |   Definitions

Baron Sekiya, Photographer, Photo Editor
Keaau | HI | USA | Posted: 5:29 PM on 08.27.09
->> I think if Kelby thought photographers who work the sidelines would all of a sudden be angels and not have a care or gripe in the world. Kelby was seriously mistaken. If he wanted to immerse someone into the pro-photography world, well this is it warts and all.

Kelby's winner was denied a credential. Most us have been denied credentials so many times for things we can't count 'em all.

Sports shooters can be a gruff bunch but hey we didn't say we were Mr. Rogers. (or Steve from Blue's Clues for you younger PJs).

Personally I think Alex should have been allowed to shoot, his post-game take on the whole thing would have been interesting.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Chuck Liddy, Photographer
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:33 PM on 08.27.09
->> Mike, sorry dude, but me thinks you're a tad delusional. You don't and probably never will "do my job". There is a reason you received about 35 inappropriate's on the last couple of threads you responded to. Your words are offensive and they seem to always end in a personal attack.
 This post is:  Informative (5) | Funny (1) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (8) |   Definitions

This thread has reached the maximum number of posts
If you would like to continue it, please create a new thread.
[ Create new thread? ]

|| Sponsor Special Deals

Free Shipping from Adorama
Available from: Adorama Camera | Price: $0.00
Notes: Free shipping on most orders!! Place your order directly with me, Jeff Snyder & I'll make sure that happens...Feel free to email me or call with any questions at any time too! jsnyder@adorama.com, or 800-223-2500 x2435 NOTE: AdoramaPix orders must be $20 or more for this offer
-- More Info --



Return to --> Message Board Main Index
The official SportsShooter.com multicolored food preparation device ::..