Story   Photographer   Editor   Student/Intern   Assistant   Job/Item

SportsShooter.com: The Online Resource for Sports Photography

Contents:
 Front Page
 Member Index
 Latest Headlines
 Special Features
 'Fun Pix'
 Message Board
 Educate Yourself
 Equipment Profiles
 Bookshelf
 my.SportsShooter
 Classified Ads
 Workshop
Contests:
 Monthly Clip Contest
 Annual Contest
 Rules/Info
Newsletter:
 Current Issue
 Back Issues
Members:
 Members Area
 "The Guide"
 Join
About Us:
 About SportsShooter
 Contact Us
 Terms & Conditions


Sign in:
Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features.

Name:



Password:







||
SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board

Best remotes for high speed action?
Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 07.24.09
->> I'm trying to find something, be it a pocket wizard or whatever, that can sync fast enough to freeze action in shots. Any recommendations?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Paul Alesse, Photographer
Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 10:24 AM on 07.24.09
->> Are you talking about strobing?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 07.24.09
->> yes. high speed sync. I tried the one that alien bee offers, but anything over 400 shutter speed....forget about it.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

John OHara, Photographer
Petaluma | Ca | United States | Posted: 10:49 AM on 07.24.09
->> Hard wire your cameras together. I use Canon 1D's and using the plug on the side of the body, I string out 300 ft. of cord wire them together and have flash sync at any shutter Speed.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Nick Morris, Photographer
San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 10:53 AM on 07.24.09
->> Talk to fellow SS member Robert Benson He's got quite the in house gadget!
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:47 AM on 07.24.09
->> Matt, when you say high speed sync are you talking about using a flash faster than the rated sync speed of your camera ?

If so, the only "high speed sync" I'm familar with is the settings on a speedlight style flash that basically pulses the flash on/off very quickly to allow you to get shutter speeds up to the max rated shutter speed of your camera, typically 1/8000th of a second, but at a very reduced output.

Freezing action using strobes though isn't an issue of shutter speed, but rather the flash duration of the strobe and overcoming the ambient lighting.

Most strobes are going to have a flash duration of around 1/2000th of a second and will freeze most any action, short of ultra high speed ballastics.

If your not freezing the action, its because your getting too much ambient light causing ghosting in your images. If your already shooting at the max sync speed, then you need more flash output as you want to be 3 or 4 stops above the ambient. The remotes you use really arent' going to make a difference in this case.

Other solution as John pointed out is getting an old Canon 1D which has an electronic shutter by turning its CCD sensor on/off. That camera can sync at a rated 1/500th and hardwired I've been able to push it up to 1/1000th before.


Perhaps if you could explain more in depth the problem your facing, the equipment your using, and what it is your trying to achieve we could help you better though.
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Max Simbron, Photographer, Assistant
Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 07.24.09
->> Jeff's correct, flash duration can affect exposure duration more than the shutter speed itself, depending on the context of the shoot.

For super high fast speed work, you need small hotshoe flashes at low output. hardwired together, a few flashes at 1/16th or lower power can easily have a flash duration of 1/10,000th of a second

as long as the camera can sync with it, and there's no ambient to affect the exposure, the flash duration will effectively become the duration of the exposure.

Some cameras will help you cheat the sync speed, those being the Canon 1D, the Nikon D40, and others. With those, the electronic shutter is much more accurate than standard mechanical shutters, so you can shoot at speeds up to 1/4,000th. But even then, the speed of hotshoe flashes at low power will still be faster. The higher shutter will really just help combat ambient, which is why a D40 is a great camera when you're trying to overpower the sun with a small flash.

Give us some more detail, and I'm sure you'll get some responses with options.

Max
 This post is:  Informative (1) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 5:51 PM on 07.25.09
->> I'm basically working with a 5DMKII and a few AlienBee 800's. I don't own any speedlites.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 6:22 PM on 07.25.09
->> Well then your going to be limited to the sync speed of your 5D mkII, which I think is 1/250th, you might be able to push it slightly faster hardwired or with he new PW's but probably will start to see part of the curtain in your frames at 1/320th or faster.

From what I've been reading the PW's really aren't quite that reliable in terms of increasing your sync speed so its a bit of a solution.

If your looking to get faster sync speeds your going to have to go to speedlights which high a high speed sync function but then your limited to the ETTL triggering system.

So your options are basically wireless ETTL with HSS placed close due to the very weak ouput, or get far more powerful lights than the AB800's if those aren't putting enough output over ambient to freeze your action
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:02 AM on 07.26.09
->> From the Sports Shooter Archives:
Shawn Cullen's article on flash duration:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1888
 This post is:  Informative (3) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 3:09 AM on 07.26.09
->> Matt, you need to be more specific as to what you are trying to accomplish.

Are you trying to stop game action or is it a portrait situation? Are you inside or outside? If you are outside, can you dictate the time of the shoot? How close to your subjects are your strobes? What modifiers are you using? You've only said that you have a few units...does that mean three? You asked about PocketWizards...do you currently own any? If not, how are you triggering the strobes?

The 5Dmk2 only syncs up to 1/200th, so you cannot set the camera's shutter speed any faster than that. Jeff is correct about the strobes stopping the action, so the camera and the triggering device aren't the issue.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jon Longo, Photographer
Independence | KY | USA | Posted: 2:43 AM on 07.27.09
->> You can see a Canon 1D Mark III sync with an Alien Bee at 1/8000th of a sec using a product that's been out for a little more than a year called Radio Poppers. Their site is http://www.radiopopper.com and they have a 9 minute youTube video that matches them up against the new Pocket Wizards. Appraently you can use them to wirelessly adjust the output of your Alien Bees on the fly as well.
I have been looking at them for some time but still debating. They also work ETTL with Canon Speedlights. Anyone here used these?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Vern Verna, Photographer
Greenville | SC | United States | Posted: 11:18 AM on 07.27.09
->> Jeff u r incorrect on the sync speed of the mark iii being the shutter speed technically in the situation he is talking about. When u r strobing if the strobe is 5 stops over ambient light (used to be rule of thumb is 3 stops with chrome but now with digital i find it is 4+ easy) the shutter speed becomes the flash duration effectively. so the flash duration is what ever the alienbees r which i sure is on their website or their instruction book. I do know the alienbees are not up in the flash duration of speedo wattseconds vs watt seconds. On a smaller alienbee it may be fast enough to get away with though. Also some of the alienbee when u dial down the power the flash duration gets longer or stays the same which is contrary to speedo and other high end strobes. As to hard wiring, yeh that is the fastest but a pocketwizard is plenty fast enough for any alienbee to sync with.

As to Robert recommendation on shawn article, i second that, shawn is the man that knows it all on this and his articles will explain everything.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jim Redman, Photographer
Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 07.27.09
->> Matt, I use Alien Bee 1600's and the cybercync's. I think what you are trying to do is not possible with strobes. High speed sync you can do with a flash, but IMO does not produce good results at all shooting sports, just not enough light and you would have to go too high of ISO.

You should be able to completely stop action with your bees. Your camera only syncs at 1/250 that's about all you're going to get strobing. Everyone is giving you great advice. Your sync speed is not determined by your transmitter, it is your camera sync speed.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:18 PM on 07.27.09
->> Vern, not sure exactly what I said thats incorrect from your post ? Everyone else has agreed I'm correct ? Did I make a typo or did you misread something I said ?

Why would shooting chrome over digital make a difference for that matter? I never strobed anything pre digital but don't see why going digital would of required people to now have 5 stops over ambient ? 3 stops has always worked fine for me really. 5 stops would require a pretty insane amount of WS for most venues. Be crazy to imagine Speedo Blackline quad heads being used for high school gyms LOL.


You are correct though and do make a good point regarding AB durations being longer as you power them them. This is something that I have seen confuse lots of folks over the years. Speedlights of course get quicker durations, up to about 1/30,000th for some old Vivitars at minimum power, but then you see people trying to use their AB set at reduced power becuse they want faster recycle times but then they can't figure out what the problem is.

I belive the new AB digital line though no longer suffers this problem though do they ?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Ric Tapia, Photographer, Assistant
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 1:29 PM on 07.27.09
->> Jeff,

Vern is saying when you can over power the ambient light by 5 stops or more the sync speed of the camera becomes irreverent. Because the strobe is over powering the ambient light you shutter speed does not matter its your flash duration.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 07.27.09
->> Ric, I know, and thought thats exactly what I said ???

Did I not clearly communicate that ? I said in my first post "Freezing action using strobes though isn't an issue of shutter speed, but rather the flash duration of the strobe and overcoming the ambient lighting."

When ambient light is overpowered and does not factor into the exposure, then its just the duration of the strobe thats giving you the effective shutter speed. Thats the whole reason using something like a speedlight at minimal power allows us to capture things like high speed ballistics. Our camera might only have a max shutter speed of 1/4000th, but we are freezing motion at 1/30,000th because thats the flash duration, even though we might actually be shooting with the shutter open for 1/30th of a second because its a dark room.


Sync speed however is typically not irreverent though because in reality, we don't shoot in totally dark venues and ambient light is an issue to getting those 3 (still not sure about this 5 stops rule for digital) stops over ambient.

If I can sync at 1/500th instead of 1/250th for example, that means my ambient exposure is cut by one full stop, and as a result, I can get by with less powerful lights, which is what I did for a few years when I was strobing basketball games.

I had rather modest AB800's and in some gyms they weren't quite powerful enough to overcome the ambient and I'd get a bit of ghosting.

Options I had would of been to upgrade my lights to something more powerful to gain that needed stop or more, which would of then been a big invest, more equipment to carry, and also longer reycle times, OR, doing what I did, and pick up a used original Canon 1D again, which could easily sync at 1/500th and faster.

I got one for about $800 I think which was far, far cheaper than more lighting.

By shooting it at the faster sync speed I cut the ambient while keeping everything else the same and got the results I was after, with the downside of having only 4 meg files. There is no free lunch as they say lol.

Anyways, long story short, unless you've got unlimited watt seconds at your disposal, or the ability to totally control your enviroment which is impossible outdoors, sync speed is going to be a very real issue.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Philip Johnson, Photographer
Garland | TX | USA | Posted: 2:10 PM on 07.27.09
->> Jeff, one other option you would have if not already shooting at ISO 100 would be to turn your ISO down by one or more stops depending if that was available. When working with flash you can change the power ofthe flash, the ISO, and the aperture to achieve the setting you want.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 07.27.09
->> Phillip, if you turn down the ISO though, while it would reduce the ambient, it would also reduce the flash exposure so it wouldn't produce any advantage.

ISO and apeture are going to affect BOTH the ambient and flash exposure. Shutter speed is the only variable in that case that would affect the ambient exposure while not affecting the flash exposure, up to the sync speed at least. Longer shutter speeds matter with flash since your getting all those photons hitting the sensor in one instant, or so to speak, if we want to avoid getting into t1 vs t5 durations and ramp times etc.

Only things you can do are either get a camera with a faster sync speed, get more powerful lights, or maybe get a BB gun and try to shoot out a few of the lights in the gym to cut the ambient a bit LOL
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 07.27.09
->> Longer shutter speeds DON't matter with flash exposures I meant to say. Wish they had an edit feature on SS!

Also make sure you look at the context of that statement from the above paragraph.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 9:24 PM on 07.27.09
->> To be more specific. I'm talking about a portrait situation. i.e.: a posed person running sprints or something like that. like shooting them coming out of the blocks. not a game situation.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 9:27 PM on 07.27.09
->> Perfect example of what I'm trying to accomplish.

Here:
http://carlosserrao.com/

Click on: 'special' then 'speed'. That's the goal. sorry if I wasn't clear.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 9:29 PM on 07.27.09
->> Multiple speedlights in FP mode (high-shutter speed).

I recently shot some portraits in mid-morning daylight, using 4 Nikon SB-800 speedlights in FP mode at shutter speeds ranging from 1/800 to 1/2500 @ f/2.8 - f/4.5.

Worked like a charm.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 9:36 PM on 07.27.09
->> Robert, do you have any examples from that shoot I might be able to see?
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 9:53 PM on 07.27.09
->> Heck, these were shot in the studio.

Swimming photos obviously in a pool but in a controlled, studio-like situation.

Guessing the strobes were maybe 2400 ws Speedos or Dyna-Lites. But anything with a short flash duration as described in Shawn's Sports Shooter Newsletter piece.

Regardless of the strobe system, in a totally controlled situation like these obviously are, it's just having the gear and the time.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 10:06 PM on 07.27.09
->> As to your original question --- "I'm trying to find something, be it a pocket wizard or whatever, that can sync fast enough to freeze action in shots" --- a Pocket Wizard (or any triggering device) is not what is going to get you the stopping power.

As Shawn's piece says, it is flash duration.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:16 PM on 07.27.09
->> Check out Dave Black's site as well, he's got some really good reading about using multiple speedlights at close range in high speed sync mode to provide daytime fill for some river rafting shots.

Joe McNally has a really great new book as well, Hotshoe Diaries that also have some really good info about lighting and specifically using smaller speedlights.

If the darn SB900's weren't nearly $500 each, I'd totally carry a bag of 10 or more around with me and just group them together as needed.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:20 PM on 07.27.09
->> Matt, the shots you linked to are all done in the studio. The photographer probably was shooting at 1/250th or slower, as has been stated, for that type of photography, the remote you doesn't matter.

They froze the motion by illuminating everything with the strobes and that short strobe duration, which was way above ambient provided all the image stopping duration.


You could of provided those with your first post and saved us a bit of typing lol
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Matt Lange, Photographer
Baton Rouge | LA | USA | Posted: 7:29 PM on 07.28.09
->> Yeah Jeff, my mistake. I didn't realize the soccer shots he did were also in studio....then composite onto a 'background'. Now, continuing with this photographer......

....were the USA Basketball shots done in studio too you think?

Thanks. Sorry again.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 7:43 PM on 07.28.09
->> If it's Olympics stuff and there's no signage in the background, it's definitely in the studio.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (1) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

John OHara, Photographer
Petaluma | Ca | United States | Posted: 8:06 PM on 07.28.09
->> I did not read all the replys but this is a good subject . 95% of my business is in large indoor facilites, like the Reno Event Center, Las Vegas Soupth Point Equestrian Center and the Denver Livestock Facility. These are big indoor arenas. I use Speedotrons 2401 SX strobes with 105 heads ( four tubes per head) then I shoot at the minimum output. This really gives you a short flash duration ( 1/3700th+-). Coupled with the 1D and a 500 sec shutter speed. You get the best of both camera and flash.
Some strobe units are very popular because they are afforadable. These units have a longer flash duration 1/300th and the kelvin temperature is suspect. Thats my Two Cents.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 1:53 AM on 07.30.09
->> Big difference between an arena where "live" action is going on ... and a studio where everything is totally controlled, the action staged and you can have the subject jump/run/dive over and over and over again.
 This post is:  Informative (0) | Funny (0) | Huh? (0) | Off Topic (0) | Inappropriate (0) |   Definitions

Add your comments...
If you'd like to add your comments to this thread, use this form. You need to be an active (paying) member of SportsShooter.com in order to post messages to the system.

NOTE: If you would like to report a problem you've found within the SportsShooter.com website, please let us know via the 'Contact Us' form, which alerts us immediately. It is not guaranteed that a member of the staff will see your message board post.
Thread Title: Best remotes for high speed action?
Thread Started By: Matt Lange
Message:
Member Login:
Password:




Return to -->
Message Board Main Index
Come join Al's Think Tank Photo Fan Page http://on.fb.me/gtF6eG ::..