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the whole stupid canon v nikon debate !
Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 8:28 AM on 03.22.09 |
->> Is it just me or is anyone else getting so fed up with this stupid bloody topic ? It seems that every thread some how or other swings back to the old camera battle, lets just get back to what you do with the things ie take pictures.
We all know nikon are on top at the moment and we all know that canon made a camera that a lot of people felt let down by with the MK3.
What i find hard to believe is how people on this site talk so flippantly about swapping between the two systems. I've been a professional photographer since 1989 and swapped from nikon to canon in 1992, I took a huge hit on the swap and I hope I never have to do it again.
With the world wide recession all I'm interested in is holding on to my work and not wasting any money as nobody knows when the worlds financial turmoil will end.
The most important thing to me is to keep my client happy (the Sunday Times in London) I have worked for them exclusively (freelance) for thirteen years and never once had a complacent about the quality of the pictures I've produced.
If you want to find a reason to swap systems you will find it , the grass is always greener on the other side or in this case black and gold .
Go back a few decades and you will find tales about sport and press photographers who used inteligence and fortitude to solve problems, photographers who knew when they had the picture and didnt just rely on their cameras to hose a job down with. so for all our sakes shut up about the make of cameras and just use them . |
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Wally Nell, Photographer
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CAIRO | EG | EGYPT | Posted: 9:06 AM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> Well said Peter. |
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Kevin Leas, Photographer, Assistant
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 9:34 AM on 03.22.09 |
->> "So for all our sakes shut up about the make of cameras and just use them."
I can't disagree more. Cameras, lenses, and flashes are the essential tools of our trade. While creativity and vision is something that no photographer can buy, tools are. And by nature, different tools from different brands will behave in different ways, which make them better or worse for different photographers based on what their needs are.
In Jeff Brehm's recent thread about flash, for example, other members quickly chimed in to share their experience with the flash systems of both Canon and Nikon, the effectiveness and consistency of each, and gave him some helpful advice.
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read the Canon vs Nikon threads. Some people here are appreciative of the feedback they receive on the ins and outs of the different tool sets available to us as professional photographers. If you don't like it, please feel free to move on to something you find more productive, instead of just whining about it and telling everyone to "shut up". And for the record - if a client ever told me to shut up and I wasn't completely out of line, that would be the last time I worked with that client. |
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Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 10:34 AM on 03.22.09 |
->> kevin
i don't whine !
i am some one who has been a photographer for over two decades ! i have seen a lot of things come and go in terms of equipment and have spent far to long arguing the merits of one system over an other .if you don't like my thread don't read it ! it was more than apparent what i had to say in the title !
Photographers are not remembered for the equipment or cameras they used but for the images they take! |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 11:03 AM on 03.22.09 |
->> If Canon would have put out a camera like Nikon's D3. This thread wouldn't even exist.
;) |
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Nigel Farrow, Photographer
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Suffolk | UK | United Kingdom | Posted: 11:42 AM on 03.22.09 |
->> Kevin, I personally have no problems with people providing views on the suitability of various brands of equipment for a task in hand such as that you mention. I will probably shortly post such a query myself on two compacts when I have the time.
There is a difference though surely between those discussions and the threads that disintegrate into the Nikon v Canon debate that Peter mentions quite clearly at the beginning of his post.
There are even a couple of peoples comments I never bother to read anymore because that seems to be their sole type of comment. Not sure how they appear to their potential clients, of which I know there are several very notable ones who lurk on here, or their employers. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 12:25 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> i actually like the debate. i think it's amusing. i agree with peter that the images are most important- as we all probably do. that said, i like reading about the people who have switched from canon to nikon, and then sing songs about it. you would think the d3 reinvented digital photography, while the mark3 represents the beginning of the end for the canon company. i like playing with the tools. those who dropped $20k to switch over to a couple of d3's and glass must like it even more. but lets be honest, it ends there. concluding that the d3 is FAR superior to the mark3 is probably more fueled by justifying the expense of the switch than the performance of the camera bodies. the mark3 is a fantastic news and sports camera, period. it's super light and super quick. admittedly, mine white balances a liitle chilly. that kind of pisses me off. but other than that, i think it's a pretty amazing camera. and if you really can't cope with whatever issues you think the mark3 has, there is always the mark2n- another amazing camera. then there's all that brilliant canon glass. further, the next 1D is likely going to be an improvement on everything currently available from anybody.
all that considered, the point here is really that the debate is particularly relevant to students or new hobbyists looking to start their collection of tools. i just don't see how a canon professional can conclude that they can't continue their daily work with canon's current offering. by all means, make the switch, but admit you're doing it just because you want some new stuff. don't worry, you're not being judged. that is a very good reason indeed. but, trying to argue that nikon cameras are better than canon cameras is just a little bit silly.
cheers. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:51 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> So you're tired of
"the whole stupid canon v nikon debate !"
So you start a thread about
"the whole stupid canon v nikon debate !"
which in turn starts
"the whole stupid canon v nikon debate !"
again!
BRILLIANT! I tell you. Simply BRILLIANT!!!
8) |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 12:54 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Canon vs. Nikon
Sports Shooter is a forum made up of a lot of people who cover sports. Is it so surprising that folks working in this business would pick a team?
Beyond that - if you really don't enjoy the debate, you don't have to participate. The threads are clearly marked. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:52 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Its actually all very simple....everyone just needs go Nikon. Problem solved =)
No more threads about AF issues
No more threads about flash performance
No more threads about poor quality wide angle lenses
No more threads about error 99 messages
No more threads about CPS membership levels
Instead it would be nothing but threads like "wow this D3 is the best camera I've ever used and why didn't someone tell me to switch sooner"
In all seriousness though, Peter, what right do you have to tell any other SS members to shut up and what they can or can't discuss ?
If someone wants to switch systems thats their right to do so. I've known a ton of photographers, myself included, who after giving a lot of thought to the matter, and weighting the pros and cons, including of course the often serious cost of switching over, still felt it was a worthwhile move and are quite happy.
This forum is supposed to be a place to share knowledge and advice. To a large degree my decision to switch systems was based upon reading SS members comments and advice and I'm darn glad there wasn't someone telling them to "shut up" and not share their viewpoints because they were very helpful to me.
Not everyone who is thinking of switching to Nikon is some fool with more money than brains as you seem to make them out to me either. I readily admit I was one of those "fools" who had a huge investment in Canon but still switched. Couldn't be happier and would do it again in a heartbeat.
What you perhaps forget it that there are a lot of student and intern photographers on this site who might just be shooting with equipment provided to them by their school and will soon be looking to make an investment into their own gear.
Likewise there are, sad to say, many staffers who have, or soon will be, venturing out on their own as freelancers and will be having to purchase new equipment.
Not every Canon shooter has several 1D mkIII's either. Theres plenty of people who still have the original 1D mkII or even the 1D. Some of those folks are at a point where they know their gear is long in the tooth and are thinking of upgrading but aren't sure if its a good idea to buy a 1D mkIII.
I think that any of those members would much rather be able to read some informative posts about equipment decisions than you telling them to shut up.
In summary I think it would make far more sense for you simply to not read such threads if they bother you and stick with whatever you've been doing since 1989 if it suits your needs rather than expecting a forum of thousands of photographers all to only be able to discuss subjects you deem worthy. I think that would be best for "all our sakes"
Cheers |
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Allen Hubbard, Photographer
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Spokane | WA | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Chuch,
My thoughts exactly, what did Peter expect to happen from starting this thread.
For me I like it, it gives a chance to hear how real life photographers feel about the different brands they are using. Some of the original threads on the D3 were what made my decision to buy one very easy.
I say carry on and if anyone doesn't like it then don't read it, it's that simple. |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 2:16 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Uhhh... CANON RULES !!! No wait... NIKON RULES !!! Arrggg... SIGMA RULES!!! Wait, wait... PENTAX RULES!!! No no it was KODAK RULES!!
Actually my right index finger and my left eye rule. It doesn't matter what the "F" I'm shooting. I've shot both. I started of with Canon and switched to Nikon when everything went Digital. I grew out of Nikon and when the Mark III hit the market it was a good fit. Only 6 months later the D3 came out. The Nikon back to Canon cost me well over $20,000 and there is no F'in way I'm going to switch again. They both make outstanding gear and in this day and age I can do ANYTHING with a MarkIII that I could do with a D3. If it's the emblem on your camera that makes you a great shooter then you should just by a Ford and shut up because we all know Ford rules. |
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Dennis Montgomery, Photographer, Assistant
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Ogden | UT | United States | Posted: 2:18 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Actually I find the thread and the majority of comments very well-informed and thought provoking, for the most part. It also obvious that both Canon and Nikon are well aware of what the professionals on this site are saying about their gear. That, in turn, can only lead to better and more useful equipment for all of us.
At a recent workshop, I asked a well-known professional what he thought of the Canon-Nikon competition/debate. He replied, only a little tongue-in-cheek, "I think they are both run by the same group of corporations and they let one company come out with a major advance for a few years to sell more gear as people switch and then a few years later, let the other company come out with an even better advance."
Now that is something to think about... |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 2:29 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> If your equipment cripples your ability to execute your vision, then switching is justified.
I don't believe I'm good enough to make that argument. Nor are many, many photographers. Too few focus on their creativity or vision.
That's abstract so rather than try to figure it out, most photographers find switching systems to be a better stimulus for creativity.
Anytime I buy a camera I always have the realization that I'm the limiting factor. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 2:29 PM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> No matter how good the 6 inches is in front of the eye--the 6 inches behind the eye is the most important piece of equipment needed. Often the 6 inches in front of the eye are often so much better. If it is the other way around it won't matter too much what is in front of the eye. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:30 PM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> I have to agree with some of the other posters, Peter. Don't read the threads that do not interest you. It's like the remote on your TV. Pass by the channels you don't want to watch. |
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Thomas Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
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Austin | TX | | Posted: 3:13 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> "everything is amazing now, and nobody's happy"
"How quickly the world owes him something he knew existed only 10 seconds ago" or from a photographer's stand point -- maybe 6 months ago...
from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoGYx35ypus
Was photography invented with Nikon's D1?
How did photographers even manage in the past? Seriously, can someone answer, because I'd love to know!
Dear God - how did Henri Cartier-Bresson, Robert Capa, Eddie Adams, William Albert Allard ect. ever function?!
or even sports photographers like Iooss. How were the iconic images of the past even possible! They didn't have super fast autofocus, 10 frames a second, multiple remote cameras and strobes fired from across the room, ect. ect. ect. ect. woe is me! it must have been a terrible Dark Age of Photography with no creativity, its a miracle they produced images at all. And not just the big names, the daily staffers who never achieved fame - how did they ever do anything!?
from the same clip:
"We live in an amazing amazing world and its wasted on the crappiest generation of spoiled idiots" I agree - and I'm only 28. ;-) |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:56 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Thomas, the world has changed since those days my friend. What worked then simply won't work for most things these days. I dont think its that hard to concept to understand.
As amazing of photographers as Bresson, Capa, Adams et al were, I think they'd have a tough time in todays market if they didnt change with the times.
Sure the core values of photography remain and composition and the ability to produce captivating storytelling images is as important as ever, but go try to shoot for a wire service at a championship game using 100 foot rolls of tri-x and figure out a way to get your images uploaded at the half and no later than 15 minutes after the end of the game when all your competition has already moved all their images to remote servers via wifi when you'd still be dunking your film in some makeshift lab in the hotel bathroom. Sure it would of worked in 1985 when thats how everyone was doing it but back then no one saw the news til tommorows paper came out even.
I don't think many clients would buy the argument your still shooting chrome because it was good enough in 1988 so it should be good enough now. Clients don't want to spend an afternoon over a lightbox with a 4x loupe. No instead art directors want instant proofs on a 46" LCD displays.
Hurling rocks with slings and bow and arrows where a perfectly good way to fight a war a thousand years ago too but its not going to be effective today. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 4:19 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Equipment
The "equipment doesn't matter" argument is perfectly valid if the assignment is as unconstrained as "Make a good photo". If all assignments were that unconstrained, we'd all shoot with whatever our favorite rig of the moment happened to be. But few assignments are as unconstrained as "come back with something good".
With most sports assignments you have to sit or work within the confines of where your press pass lets you work. In basketball you have to sit in an assigned box. Editors want certain shots to tell the story. They want shots of each coach, jube/sorrow, action, etc. Every one of these constraints necessitates certain equipment. If you don't have the shots they need but instead come back with nothing but art shots of grainy silhouetted cheerleaders, defocused scoreboards and blurry hands on a blurry ball because you decided to shoot the whole thing with your G10, they are going to be upset no matter how pretty the shots are, and your tenure will be short lived.
Team shooting gives you the advantage of being able to take risks while still having the bases covered. If you have five shooters and a half a dozen remotes covering a game, you can afford to try a shot with an oddball lens in a prayer location and hope it works. But these days fewer shooters have the luxury of shooting in a team setting. Most are one-man bands. In those situations you have to cover the basics, innovate where possible, and use the absolute best gear you can come up with for flexibility reasons.
Gear matters in the constrained world. |
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Thomas Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
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Austin | TX | | Posted: 4:25 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Jeff,
I obviously am not advocating shooting Tri-X in 2009 at a sports game. That would be stupid for anyone on a media deadline.
My point is: our photographic weapons of today are far superior to the photographic weapons of the past.
If great images could be made then, then great images can be made now -- regardless of the situation you find yourself in. Period. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:35 PM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> I want a Hasselblad H3! |
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Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 6:27 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> What right do i have to post an opinion !!!!!
it is MY opinion !
Cameras are important !
I - like most other photographers - think a lot about cameras. I talk about cameras with fellow pros and I look at the pictures that I take with my cameras with a critical eye.
The point that I was making is that its not the brand - its the person behind the camera.
I have used the new nikons and they are excellent ,they are the best cameras on the market today ,buy one and you wont regret it ,the lenses are fantastic too and the flash guns live up to all expectations.
I - on the other hand - use Canon to earn my living. I have a few issues with them but on the whole I can live with the faults and am about 90% happy with them, could I afford to swap? Yes I can, am I going to? NO!
The reason why is sods law ! I know that as soon as I do, Canon will leapfrog Nikon and produce something even better than the d3. thus the whole debate will swing to the other side!
PLEASE TALK GEAR IF YOU WANT TO !
If you want to talk gear - do it, if you want to talk camera aesthetics feel free, I didn't ask for anyone to comment on my post. I certainly didn't ask for a mass debate (no pun intended)! I was merely putting forward the view that to blame equipment for your failures or success is wrong and to think that changing camera brands is the answer.
I haven't called anyone stupid, I just think the topic has been done to death and that the topic is stupid.
The other point was money. If your income is suffering with bad equipment then if you are in a position to, then change. But at a time with fewer outlets for photography and with a newspaper industry that is doing something of a slow death in front of our very eyes, not to mention potential mass unemployment on the horizon for millions of people world wide then the thought of spending thousands of pounds or dollars on new equipment to me (my personal opinion that is) is daft !
Roll on 2012! If any of us are still working then I may see some of my critics at the olympics and we can discus the whole new topic of red v nikon v canon v ???????
Good night all! |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 7:12 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Peter,
seriously dude, the title of your post, "the whole stupid canon v nikon debate," pretty much sums up the attitude of most of us here. IT'S STUPID! we're all sick of it. WHY would you even start such a ridiculous thread over a debate you yourself believe to be "stupid?" are you just bored?
marc |
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Greg Cooper, Photo Editor
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Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 8:35 PM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> Well that's eight minutes of my life I'll never get back. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 9:38 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> Peter, you have every right to express your opinion. But, when that opinion includes telling everyone "shut up", then, well, you deserve whatever comes to you.
There is a big difference between expressing an opinion and challenging the opposition to a duel; you chose the latter.
Oh yea: all pros with the "it ain't the equipment" bullsh*t, please mail your professional gear to me. My address is on my member page. You'll travel much lighter and be just as productive with your cellphone camera, so why muck around with that heavy DSLR? |
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Chris Large, Photographer
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Okotoks | AB | Canada | Posted: 10:31 PM on 03.22.09 |
| ->> maybe the stupidest thread yet and i'm kicking myself for making it go on longer that it should of (should have stopped at 1) |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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Live HVN : Work SFO-NYC | | | Posted: 11:15 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> I just like to shoot photos.
Simple in my house.
My digital gear for work is all Canon.
My film gear for me is all Nikon (multple FA bodies, an F3 and a Nikomat FS along with some sweet Ai and AI-S lenses).
My portable flash units for my Canon kit are Nikon SB-28dx units.
My flashes for my Nikon bodies, Vivitar 283s
...that should settle it. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:52 PM on 03.22.09 |
->> I like David's point: Part of it is recreational "sports bar" smack talk.
But part of it serves a real function. At the elite levels of photography in which many of us work, differences that regular consumers would not notice can make the difference between a professionally adequate shot and a superlative image.
The collective wisdom of a professional forum keeps the manufacturers honest by identifying technical faults and design successes (and inadequacies.)
During my career, the "leader" has changed numerous times. As Shakespeare wrote: "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown."
--Mark |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 12:44 AM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> It's pretty stupid discussion to me. "Bar talk" doesn't transcribe well on the internet...as this entire thread is a good example of. |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 1:34 AM on 03.23.09 |
->> "Dear God - how did Henri Cartier-Bresson, Robert Capa, Eddie Adams, William Albert Allard ect. ever function?!"
I don't think any of those guys ever shot a night game at a poorly and inconsistently lit high school football field. I bet they would now. ;) |
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Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 4:25 AM on 03.23.09 |
->> Morning.
When I wrote "shut up" i didn't think it would cause so much anger, over here its a very mild phrase that was meant to sound more exasperated than angry. If anyone is offended by this phrase then I'm sorry, oh and please beware when coming over to england because we all swear like dockers!
Wait till you drive through london you will experience every insult known to man !. Every job I have been on in about the last year with other snappers the conversation has been dominated by the n v c debate, honestly every sodding job,it gets boring and old.
When the site started it seemed more pro lead, for working pros ,about working pros and I forget that it has expanded and included a wider audience (which is fine) who maybe don't shoot the bigger events and to who maybe starting out and to whom equipment is a big issue.
Being called dude actually by an american was nice, but chris I'm sorry but"stupidest" as a word just really dosn't sound right to my big british ears.
Greg i owe you eight minutes ,please fell free to take it any time you want. Marc was i bored ? No i thought I made a good point about brains over equipment and the state of the economy scares the hell out of me (something no one commented on) and I don't understand how the equipment dosn't matter thread came out of what i said.
But I'm bored now! so I will run off into the beautiful surrey hills in a benny hill style!!! |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 6:40 AM on 03.23.09 |
->> Bill Ross:
Actually Bill Allard shot in even less light with his Leica. He often hand held his camera down to second. You can even hear him talk about it in the National Geographic DVD on photographers. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:27 AM on 03.23.09 |
->> "We all know nikon are on top at the moment"
No, Canon's on top. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:39 AM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> No, Jim, Nikon is (let's see if we can do this until this thread reaches it's post limit). |
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Eric Jones, Photographer
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Greenville | NC | USA | Posted: 11:44 AM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> I have a Canon and even I know that Nikon is on top right now. Just a few more comments and we can end this thread...unless someone starts a "Part II" thread. |
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Bryon Houlgrave, Photographer
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Waukesha | Wi | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Alphabetically Canon will always come before Nikon. |
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Rich Cruse, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Nikon vs. Canon = Ford vs. Chevy. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 03.23.09 |
->> Greg: "that's eight minutes of my life I'll never get back."
Solution: Take a speed-reading course.
Stanley: "No matter how good the 6 inches is in front of the eye--the 6 inches behind the eye is the most important piece of equipment needed."
Dude: I know which 6 inches is most important, and I know exactly where it is thankyouverymuch, and it ain't in front of my face. Oh yea - you shorted me a couple of inches! |
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Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 12:58 PM on 03.23.09 |
->> Wow. Dave's post raises some questions:
1.) Does Red Bull make a new testostrone blend?
2.) Is Dave buying it by the case?
3.) Is he talking about his monopod at the end? |
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Ronnie Montgomery, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 3:31 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> So how long before this deteriorates to the point that we see decals start showing up in the back windows of folk's pickup trucks with that kid urinating on Nikon and Canon emblems? |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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Live HVN : Work SFO-NYC | | | Posted: 3:54 PM on 03.23.09 |
->> Ronnie
Does this mean my Canon 1D peeing on a Nikon D1h sticker has to come off the back window of my Ford? |
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Juliann Tallino, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Port Townsend/Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 7:02 PM on 03.23.09 |
->> Rich,
Ford of course, no contest. |
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Rich Cruse, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 7:40 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Funny Juliann! This thread is (thankfully) almost through! |
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Zach Ornitz, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Aspen | CO | USA | Posted: 7:48 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> I miss Walter Calahan's witty remark for a thread such as this. Thank you, Chuck Liddy for keeping his perspective alive! |
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Myung Chun, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 8:23 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> This thread is funny. |
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Stephen Lam, Student/Intern, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 8:31 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Grin. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 8:39 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Nikon Rules!!! ok just two more posts! |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> Holga vs. Diana - Battle of the toys. |
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Christopher Szagola, Photographer
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Richboro | PA | United States | Posted: 8:53 PM on 03.23.09 |
| ->> The End |
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