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Cops and their cost to the taxpayers
Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Tony Sirgedas, Photographer
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Pierce County | WA | USA | Posted: 6:21 PM on 02.18.09 |
| ->> It sounds like a new part of the economic stimulus to photographers. Take a picture, get arrested, large settlement. |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 6:57 PM on 02.18.09 |
->> I'd suggest renaming this thread to 'stupid cops...'
I think that's what Walter meant anyway. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 7:06 PM on 02.18.09 |
| ->> No, I think we taxpayers need to reign in these cops who keep doing stupid things that ends up costing us money defending their stupidity in the court of law. I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'cop' is redundant. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 10:11 PM on 02.18.09 |
->> Even if NYC took the fine right out of the cop's paycheck, I'll bet there is a union that would immediately reimburse the cop.
You can't win, but that isn't a suggestion that one should ever roll over and give in to them. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:15 PM on 02.18.09 |
->> "I'll bet there is a union that would immediately reimburse the cop."
Actually, that would be a violation of labor laws. The other cops could take up a collection and do it if they wanted. Unfortunately, most fines aren't high enough to deter bad behavior. |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 6:50 AM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Man I need to go there so I could get paid! What a nice way to receive free money |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:10 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> OK, I agree the police were wrong and there are thugs and boneheads in law enforcement that make everyone look bad. But guess what I'm sick of the bashing of all law enforcement officers that takes place here. Comments like this:
"I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'cop' is redundant."
really make me sick. Walter, take a look at this site - please feel free to contact the wives, sons, daughters, parents and other relatives of these law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty and tell them you think their loved one was "stupid".
2009:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php
2008:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2008
2007:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2007
2006:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2006
2005:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2005
2004:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2004
2003:
http://www.odmp.org/year.php?year=2003
Most law enforcement officers due a great job in very difficult situations and many put their lives on the line every day. And some of them don't make it home at the end of the day to their family. So, as the son of a man who spent the last 47 years serving his community respectfully and who was actually shot at while doing so comments like yours really make me sick. I'm very greatful he came home alive after every shift. I'm proud of the service he provided in the community.
Pointing out the knuckleheads is good and it's good to raise awareness of law enforcement people that overstep their bounds. But there's a tendancy to brush the entire population with a brush because of the actions of a few.
Let us know how your conversation goes with the relatives of the fallen officers. Put your money where your mouth is - tell those families how stupid the fallen are.
Go ahead people, flame away. I understand it's very vogue here to throw mud at the entire law enforcement community based on the actions of a few knuckleheads. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:55 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> John while I respect your views, one of the reasons that officers get lumped together is that often when one acts up they tighten ranks and defend the behaviors that they KNOW are wrong.
Just ONCE I'd like to see in one of the videos of these encounters where one cop steps forward and says to the knucklehead cop "Hey Richard you're acting like a dick.' It just doesn't happen often enough. With the advent of all the cell phones cameras and now video cell phones, the bs reports and the all for one mentality is harder to hide.
It does suck for the good cops, but it should also move them to clean house within their ranks. |
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John Pavoncello, Photographer
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 1:59 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Well said John. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 2:10 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Ok John, please calm down. I know where your coming from. My father served 33 years in the Marine Corp and I can get bent out of shape sometimes when people start in with the bashing of the military. Walter was just trying to make a point and he might have over stated his position in order to make the point that some cops are stupid. I think we all need to realized that law, just as the military and some other civil service jobs, are just microcosms of greater society. Their is good and bad and the constant struggle between them. Walter was not saying that all cops are stupid or those that died in the line of duty are stupid. If he were then it would be same as saying that all photographers are child molesters or thieves because their were a couple of those in recent times. I know there are some on this site who hate cops,PERIOD. But the vast majority of members on this site I believe,understand that the police have a job to do as well and that they are human beings complete with all of the mistakes and misunderstandings that go along with that. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 2:13 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Walter, I do hope that you are never in a situation where you need a "stupid" cop to risk his life to save yours. |
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Rick Rowell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 2:16 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Oh! and Matthew. Their is no such thing as "free money" as future generations are about to find out. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 2:40 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Rick - I hear ya. But his comment was a 'microcosm' of many comments on threads involving police on this board. It is my impression (right or wrong) there is a pervasive trend here where the entire profession gets blasted.
Judging by the emails I've gotten since my post I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Look - I respect a lot of things Walter says. And I'm not calling him a bad guy. I am saying I have issue with the statement he made and have issue with anyone making similar statements that paint an entire population with a label based on the actions of a few.
Eric brought up a good point about video today and about not seeing enough of other cops stepping forward to correct one another. What I might suggest is there is a lot more GOOD actions by police but you'll never see video of that - it's not sensational so people don't care. So, I think you have very few data points with which to draw a conclusion regarding the entire population of law enforcement. I have no issue with calling a knucklehead a knucklehead. And no issue with Walter as a person since I don't even know him. Just with the comment and the overall acceptance of those comments on this forum. If I posted a video of an asian man commiting a crime and made a comment that "I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'asian' is redundant." How many people here would have flagged my post as inappropriate or said something. But because the subject was "cop" rather than a racial group it's ok? |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 2:45 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Rick,
Dang it, I had my bags packed and everything :) |
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Nic Summers, Photographer
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Mount Prospect | IL | USA | Posted: 4:53 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "I think we taxpayers need to reign in these cops who keep doing stupid things that ends up costing us money defending their stupidity in the court of law."
These so-called protectors are stepping on our freedom as well. What's the cost of that????
Thanks for posting Walter! |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 4:55 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Well I got some impassioned e-mails defending police officers.
Here's my reply:
Then tell police officers to get the word out to the policing community that photographers are not criminals for taking photographs.
Ever since Sept 11 photographers have become criminals simply for exercising their First Amendment rights. I truly believe if police officers understood the oath they take to defend the US Constitution, instead of their knee jerk harassment, then none of the recent news would show this stupid behavior.
Just because a police officer puts their life on the line for others, or even gets shot at (I'm been shot at too), means they can take the law into their own hands.
There are plenty of jackass photographers, just as there are jackass bankers, doctors, lawyers, etc.
I am neither arrogant, or uninformed when it comes to the US Constitution. It is what makes this country great. What I hate reading about are stupid cops arresting photographer for their constitutional rights. If we have no Constitution, we live in a police state.
Thanks for letting me know your opinion.
Walt
*****
To flip John Germ's comments on its head:
Just as most cops are good people, most photographers are doing no one any harm making pictures.
We pay our taxes so police officers can protect us in bad situations. No one put a gun to anyone's head forcing them to be a police officer, this is a matter of choice. There is nothing sadder than a police officer losing his or her life when protecting citizens against evil people.
SO WHY do police single out the act of making pictures as a national crime? Answer: since 9/11 we have a nation acting out of fear, which in my opinion is just plain stupid. It is wasting limited tax dollars, and is not stopping terrorism.
To the police of this entire nation, any terrorist or average thug criminal can get whatever he or she needs from Goggle Earth. If you don't act out of knowledge, you are stupid.
Stop arresting and harassing photographers. |
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Karl Stolleis, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | | Posted: 6:29 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Normally I dont agree with Walter but I have to on this one. John has defended police officers many times on this site and pulling things like officers killed in the line of duty changes nothing. Being a cop is a dangerous job and they all deserve the a round of applause for what they do. This is a case, like many, of a cop knowing the law and choosing to ignore it. Putting your life on the line to "protect and serve" does not include making up laws to suit your own needs. This includes dealing with photographers and other members of the public. And I as a taxpayer expect to be treated in a professional and polite manner when confronted by police.
A citizen of the United States is afforded EQUAL protections under the law, even if they carry a camera. I think John cites an undercurrent of negativity on this site simply because many photographer that frequent this site have had plenty of bad experiences with police because of a camera. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 6:31 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> OK Walter,
Time to play journalist. You made the stsatement:
"SO WHY do police single out the act of making pictures as a national crime?"
Got any proof or evidence that police are singling out photographers? Pick a city - look at their arrests for any period of time. How many are photographers? Or interview the tens of thousands of photographers and ask how many have been singled out by law enforcement.
You made the claim. Now back it up with proof. Or are you acting without knowledge in which case by your definition you're stupid? Again, let's see your facts. Let's say you google and find 50 videos or instances since 9/11. I'd hardly call that 'singling out' 50 instances out of millions of times someone has taken a photo or police have arrested someone. I'd like to see the volumes of data you have that indicate this is not a VERY tiny issue. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 6:48 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Karl - to be clear on what I am doing - I am NOT defending the officers in the story above. They were wrong. But I am defending the other 90+% of law enforcement officers out there against what I believe to be unfounded criticism. But that's the great thing about democracy. I don't have to step in line behind the journalists here. I get to voice my opinion too. And I think it's good we get the counterpoint to the prejudiced statements being made. |
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Karl Stolleis, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | | Posted: 6:57 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Fair enough John
I just have to say, from personal knowledge, that having a cop show up and tell you that you are going to be arrested put him or her in a position of absolute power. This is not something to be abused or taken lightly nor dismissed when improperly applied.
I agree with you that words like "stupid" get thrown around a bit much and language like that should be left out of the arguement. Maybe Walter's words were poorly chosen but his point is well made.
Fair or not - cops can and should be held to a higher standard - comes with the badge and I am sure your dad would agree with that. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 7:22 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Karl,
I agree with your last post. But consider this - consider the power of the people on this forum. They have free reign to make these statements and the subjects of the statements have no ability to respond to those accusations. At least with a paper a person can write a letter to the editor and hope to get the counterpoint published. This is a forum where members can post, public can read but the portion of the public that may be the subject of discriminatory statements has no real recourse for their point to be heard. Consider the power in that before you give a free pass to members making discriminatory remarks about a large group or race of people. |
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Nic Summers, Photographer
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Mount Prospect | IL | USA | Posted: 7:45 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "Got any proof or evidence that police are singling out photographers?"
John, sorry I would have taken photos of the 7 police cars that had me surrounded just outside of O'Hare airport about 3 years ago while I was taking photos while standing on a public street if I had known you wanted proof.
Maybe I didn't get tasered or arrested and maybe I was only asked to move, not told, but was nevertheless intimidated, harassed and had an officer sticking his arm inside the back of my car through an open door snooping around without permission.
Why is it at DFW airport they built a park for watching airplanes and around O'Hare they act like red-neck mall cops with nothing better to do than putting on dog and pony shows like the one I experienced?
Yes, I was getting singled out for using a camera. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:03 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Thank you Sam, you beat me to it.
Okay, fair enough about definitions.
I respect police who are professional, self sacrificing, brave at facing the daily worse our society has, and who upholds the US Constitution.
Cop, to me is a slang. A cop can be professional as the ideal of all police officers. BUT, a cop is also the local guy who gets a job because his uncle is on the town council, and who loves to hang out at Dunkin' Donuts. Then there is the various shades of gray in between.
I don't believe a professional police officer arrests people for taking pictures. I do believe there are stupid cops who do.
Finally what I don't understand is that some people here say I believe ALL cobs are stupid. That's not what I wrote.
"I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'cop' is redundant."
I'm BEGINNING does not mean I absolutely believe.
I THINK means I'm questioning and wrestling with the evidence of all these arrested photographers both here and in England.
There is a clear pattern developing. Where did it come from? Why can't it stop? Does it have a life of its own? Are people that stupid to believe in laws that don't exist? Are cobs arresting photographers because of an institutional group ignorance of the law?
So by watching the news of photographers being arrested by cops who clearly do not know the law, shouldn't we question how these people are trained? Can they be collectively stupid since 9/11?
Ultimately, all power invested in government comes from the citizen of the nation. We the People hire government workers to work for us. They do not work for some abstract false law that says photography is a crime. Law is simply a uniform rule that we as citizens agree to to make a civil society.
All police swear to uphold the US Constitution from which we construct our laws. If there is no law that says photography is a crime, then cops who arrest photographers for a non-existent law must be stupid in my mind. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 8:15 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> John, I too respect your opinion, but your inexperience and lack of real world experience has shown through with some of your bravado asking for proof. I would dare say to you that I probably DON'T know a single photojournalist who HASN'T been harassed by the police for taking photos in a public place. The problem with police is they can do whatever they want, you complain and point out your rights and they will arrest you for a myriad of made up phantom charges, which will later be dismissed with a "sorry our officer was a little high strung that night and he was wrong. please accept our apology." I don't accept their back handed apologies any more. These guys carry lethal weaponry. they are SUPPOSED to KNOW the basic premise of the law. They usually make it a point of picking out photographers in most situations and leave the general public alone. I'm not saying they need to be legal scholars but a basic understanding of the Constitution's Bill of Rights would be very nice. Stopping me from doing my job, which has happened WAY too many times, is bullshit. Standing up to the bad ones is important, please try and remember these conversations when you're slammed up against a patrol car for taking photos some overzealous cop doesn't want you to take. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 8:22 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Law enforcement's actions have far reaching and permanent affects on the lives of people they interact with. The room for error is little. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 8:34 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Chuck,
I've lived on the face of the earth for 38 years. I resent the implication that because that time hasn't been spent as a journalist it isn't "real world". I love the style of journalism being espoused here - "here is the truth, anyone who dissents doesn't know what they're talking about". I've received no less than 3 emails from former members who have indicated they no longer belong because of the close-minded remarks like these.
if you're going to make sweeping comments and label an entire group of people as being bad then yes you should have some statistics showing how a large portion of that population exhibits that bad behavior. Otherwise, keep your comments to the specific individuals exhibiting the behavior. Don't assign blame to the entire population.
Just because my personal experience differs from yours doesn't invalidate it. If I polled 50 law enforcement officials and asked them if they ever harrsed a photographer does that mean all cops are innocent of your charges?
Hell, I spent last weekend joking with a cop while shooting photos - guess cops here in Ohio aren't spending all their time harrasing photogs doing their job.
Stick to specific incidents. I haven't seen a single shred of data presented here that supports the written argument that law enforcement as a whole is "stupid", or "singling out photographers". Can I ask in all sincerety what the feedback you've gotten from the public is when you've published a story in your paper about the pervasive problem with law enforcement? If it's as bad as you say, you must have written about it as a journalist. How did your readers respond? Do they agree?
As I said - it's real easy to make posts here where the subject of your angst or those of dissenting agreement have no voice. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "Most law enforcement officers due a great job in very difficult situations and many put their lives on the line every day."
Realistically? Most cops in this country do a job and do it well. Most of the time what they do isn't difficult and doesn't in any way involve them putting "their lives on the line" but it's those odd moments when they are confronted with difficult situations (Does that man have a gun?) that make their lives stressful.
They, as a whole, tend to believe that the those rare stressful events are an excuse for that anything they do, or another cop does, is an excuse for unreasonable or downright wrong behavior.
Don't get me wrong. I love a reasonable cop, and I've known many, but there are a lot of a-holes out there that think they are the law. Indeed ABOVE the law.
The cop that made up his own little law about photography on the NY subway was wrong. I hope that the photog takes the case to court and wins a bundle. I also hope that other cops take note and learn not to hassle photographers (all the while making up other BS charges that they think will justify their initial arrests) but I don't believe that'll happen any time soon.
Or in my lifetime... |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "I do hope that you are never in a situation where you need a "stupid" cop to risk his life to save yours."
So you'll excuse some lame-ass cop trashing your constitutional rights because of a fear that, if you don't let them get away with carp, they won't come to your aid in a time of need?
You don't think much of cops, do you? |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:03 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "Got any proof or evidence that police are singling out photographers?"
Sorry no... Because the cops threatened me with arrest if I didn't move from where I was standing (with full permission to be there). They didn't want me to photograph a body at an accident scene and so blocked all media.
Ever hear of the First Amendment?
Neither had he. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 9:11 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> "They, as a whole, tend to believe that the those rare stressful events are an excuse for that anything they do, or another cop does, is an excuse for unreasonable or downright wrong behavior.
"
Ah yes - another well-founded argument. You, as a respectable journalist have the sources to cite what police "as a whole" think do you?
Or is it your powers of ESP that allow you to read the minds of everyone around you?
Tell me Jim, how do you know what police "as a whole" believe?
Another point for good journalism here. What paper have you published statements like that in Jim? I'd like to see the editor that allows a statement like that to get published. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:12 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> John, I'm not going to belabor the point any longer and this will be my last response because you seem not to want to hear anyone's else's point of view. I said "photojournalist's". And I will say it right out. If you haven't worked on the front lines as a photojournalist in a sticky situation with the police then, no, I don't care if you've "been on the earth 38 years"...you have NO real life experience with dealing with the police. Plain and simple, if all you've covered are sporting events than I will concede you most probably have never been harassed by a misinformed law enforcement officer. And that's fine but please don't twist statement's by saying the majority of working journalists who have been, threatened, harassed, arrested and assaulted by the police over the years are wrong and you need "proof". No one has labeled every law enforcement officer as bad. In fact go back and read the posts over again. Most have stated that there, as in most cases are a few bad apples in the bunch. I have several police officer friends and they will be the first to tell you there are some police out there who are on power trips. Do some research. You will find plenty of examples of police abusing their power. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 9:15 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Chuck,
Let me restate:
- to be clear on what I am doing - I am NOT defending the officers in the story above. They were wrong. But I am defending the other 90+% of law enforcement officers out there against what I believe to be unfounded criticism.
And, yes, my comments are directed at people in this thread that want to label the entire population.
You still didn't answer the question Chuck - what did your readers have to say when you wrote your article on this issue? |
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Jerome Davis, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 9:59 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Again go back to the original post, and if you read it carefully you would not have to defend the 90% that no one is talking about. A link was posted and a comment was made
"I think we taxpayers need to reign in these cops who keep doing stupid things . . ."
"These cop", are referring to the cops in the article that made up laws.
So we are not talking about the 90%, Just the "these" stupid cops from the article. So no need to defend the rest of them.
I hope that helps |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Hi Jerome.
I had no problem whatsoever with the original post. I had a problem with "I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'cop' is redundant."
A further problem with:
"They, as a whole, tend to believe that the those rare stressful events are an excuse for that anything they do, or another cop does, is an excuse for unreasonable or downright wrong behavior.
"
No problem with singling out the indivuals in the original post. The problem is with the sweeping statements assigning guilt or at least disparaging remarks toward the entire population. It's statements like that I believe are unfounded and unjustified. And just as biggotted as if they were directed at a racial group. Calling a thug a thug is fine.
Thank you for voicing an opinion - healthy debate is good. |
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Jon L Hendricks, Photographer
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Hobart | IN | USA | Posted: 10:11 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> John,
I've been seriously harassed by police more than a dozen times in my short career and I've never overstepped my bounds. I've found that police love to "protect" by disrupting, moving, and threatening me. In tense situations people's emotions seem to take over even if the law permits photography in public places. Yes, cops are human but they need to follow the law just like us. I could probably have won numerous cases for false arrest but chose to obey and miss shots instead. I feel dejected and fearful every time I encounter a police officer. Is this how citizens are supposed to live when they have not done anything wrong?
Where are all the good police criticizing their fellow cop? It will never happen cause they don't police their own. Just like Eric said earlier. They need to correct their fellow officer.
I know police sometimes have to make instant decisions but harassing a photographer is not a quick decision. It's their poor training and stereotyping that lead them to target us in a reactionary manner.
By the way, the Google search "journalist convicted" comes up with many freedom of the press issues including many overseas journalists being convicted in secret trials, vague charges, and (get this) death for blasphemy in Afghanistan. Harassing and arresting people based on false photography laws is scarily similar although not on the same magnitude. |
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Jim Work, Photographer
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Alpine | TX | USA | Posted: 10:17 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> John..........if your are so keen on proof and stats, where the heck is your proof of that "90+%" you keep quoting as as if was a fact. The proof should flow both ways. You are as off base as the person saying most officers are crooks. Let's get this tread to 50 and move on..... |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 10:20 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> In the photojournalism world, 90+% of the shooters don't photoshop their images unethically by putting things in there that weren't. When a member of the PJ world does so, he/she is ostracized from the community. Photojournalists understand that their credibility is damaged by the "bad eggs" and when someone is caught, they aren't fined, they are fired and will likely be rendered unemployable by their damaged reputation.
I don't doubt that 90+% of the cops are good people and do their jobs professionally and ethically. Nonetheless, as a community, law enforcement does not do a good job at defending their collective reputation by ridding itself of the bad ones.
When you have a camera and work as a photojournalist, your duty to society is sacred, and you are to tell the truth, and when peers break the rules, it is also your duty to stop them or call them out. To an even greater degree, when you carry a gun and a badge, your duty is sacred, and when your peers abuse their power, you should stop them and call them out. Frankly, I think it is an easy argument to make that cops seldom do so, even the good ones. They, all too often, become entrenched in an "us against them" mindset and protect their own. This was pointed out to me by my former brother-in-law who has spent 30+ years as a cop. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 10:35 PM on 02.19.09 |
| ->> Incidently, I don't want to speak for Walter as he is quite capable of speaking his own mind. I will assert, however, that he doesn't actually believe that "cop" and "stupid" are synonymous. Instead, I believe he was employing hyperbole in order to make a point. At least, that's how I read it. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 10:36 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> Mark - let me say I agree with you and Eric on the idea that police should make an effort to weed out bad eggs. But, let me suggest the following as an example of why they might not. I stood up to what I identified as biggotted statements - I've quoted them again above. I believe the statements are biggotted and I've gotten about a dozen emails from people reading that cannot post their thoughts here. I stood up against a group here and voiced an unpopular opinion and look what the group has done. To many people outside of the group, what I have done is right. Inside the group I am considered wrong or naive or inappropriate. Now, there's really no reason for me to not stand up as being flagged as inappropriate or called naive or whatever are hardly serious repercussions. But imagine a young journalist out of college reading this thread who might share my opinion. Think he/she is going to voice it here and bring down the wrath of the 'collective group'. Now think of a young cop witnessing non-violent harrassment. Is the harassment wrong? Yes. But asking him to call out the group is a tough thing. I am NOT excusing bad behavior. I agree it should be weeded out. I'm suggesting a very possible alternative to why people don't often stand up to the group. Just look what standing up to a group of journalists does :)
and yes - we're inching towards 50. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 10:53 PM on 02.19.09 |
->> John, you are a member of a group of photographers on a website.
I don't really care how young a cop is. He/she is carrying a gun, lethal force, and is entrusted to uphold the Constitution he/she has sworn to defend. By not calling out bad cops, he/she is complicit in the crime. If he/she doesn't "call out the group" he/she is just as guilty and the damage done is that the credibility of the profession is diminished, and the rights of the people he/she has sworn to protect are placed as secondary to the whim of the abusers.
Comparing the two seriously stretches the boundaries of similarity. |
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Jim Cowsert, Photographer
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Grapevine | TX | USA | Posted: 12:14 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> Hey, I'm a Cop (albeit only part time now), never harassed a photographer, actually went out of my several times over my 31 year career to make sure the media could get the shots and story they needed.
Am I offended by some of these comments? Of course not. There are asses in every profession, I can name several I've worked with over the years and some here too from post I've read over the years. Remember we hire from the human race. For the most part people like you and me. Every once in awhile a bad one will get thrown in the mix. We receive for the most part excellent training in the law, arrest procedures, codes of criminal procedure, law's of arrest, etc... Do some cops bend it, you bet. Does the media bend the truth? I hope not, but they do at times report only what they want and lopsided quite a bit too.
Is it easy to fire a cop for bad behavior? Nope, we have all kinds of laws, civil service protection, police associations, etc.. that will keep a bad cop on the beat. Usually they will weed out over time, but usually not on a complaint like that of harassing a photographer. Most complaints on officers come internally, so to say that cops tighten ranks is just false in most instances. I know so because for years I worked IAD cases.
John...I get your point and thanks for defending the good cops. I think everyone on this board and other journalist I've worked alongside will defend a good cop to the end. The bad ones are on their own. In most cops eyes there's nothing worse than a "dirty cop".
Now... this will really piss some people off here... I sometimes work for free or for a free meal at Chili's. |
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Rick Yeatts, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | USA | Posted: 12:39 AM on 02.20.09 |
| ->> I learned a couple of thing in the past 55 years and one thing is for certain. You act like an ass and you get treated like as ass. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 2:13 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> Oops - excuse me guys; I was feeling a bit lonely, did a Google search on "nice piece of ass", and this thread made the top of the list.
I wonder, has anyone asked your local "Guy With Badge": Do you have any idea the percentage of major-case arrests made, directly or indirectly, through the use of photography? Crime scene photos perhaps? Hell, even a high school yearbook "mugshot" that generates an anonymous tip is good enough for me...
Again, after said arrests: Do you have any idea the percentage of CONVICTIONS made, directly or indirectly, through the power of the photograph? Again - crime scene photos, evidence photography, crime re-creation shots, etc.?
Any time a journalist documents a crime or its aftermath, he/she is potentially assisting the efforts to solve that crime. Instead of smashing his camera, why don't you buy him a [profanity]in' beer?
I mean hell - I'm not a journalist, and I can recall at least three separate instances where a "peace officer" has demanded that I cease my photography. I can just imagine what journalists experience. Having been there, I can attest that few things generate more "fight/flight" adrenaline than being confronted by some angry prick with a flashlight in one hand, his other on a nightstick. He can keep his gun; I've already shit my pants.
I don't begrudge these cops' their freedom, or even their jobs. But one day of one man's freedom being falsely taken is one day too many. For every such day, every responsible badgeholder should be forced to spend doing community service - in the slums of MOSCOW - then perhaps they'll remember and appreciate that document they so long ago to an oath to uphold. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:00 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> Thank you Mark.
"I'm beginning to think 'stupid' and 'photographer' is redundant." |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:52 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> The whole system is based on doing the right thing; when it doesn't, democracy suffers.That's the big picture thing.
I haven't had much problem, but when I have, I've tried to stay calm and then deal with it after the fact if I couldn't persuade the officer to work with me. PJ's need to make sure they play by the rules and everyone knows this. Reality is it's tough to argue too much with a individual with a attitude, a gun and a badge.
Have we reached 50 yet? |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:53 AM on 02.20.09 |
| ->> NOW we've reached 50... |
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Kevin Novak, Photographer, Assistant
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Bel Air (Baltimore) | MD | USA | Posted: 8:56 AM on 02.20.09 |
->> Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it.
Darn, I did it.
I try my best to stay out of these threads. Emotions run high, but they allow folks to vent.
I've been a cop for 27+ years, currently the commander of our SWAT Team. I've had assignments that run the gamut from street cop to trainer to Public Information Officer. So I think I have a pretty good perspective of police work in MY agency. In my four years as PIO, I think I only had ONE complaint come to me regarding the treatment of a journalist at an incident scene. Thankfully it was rather minor and easy to resolve. (This was prior to 9/11).
I think much of it comes down to training. Police training is different from state to state and agency to agency. Police training is governed by state boards who dictate MINIMUM standards. Locals are certainly free to go beyond that, but they will ALL be different in the time and effort they put into training topics. Keep in mind that we need to be mindful of ALL the amendments; not just the first.... And a handful of the other ones have much more direct, immediate impact on police work.
I do need to pick a nit with Jim Colburn's comment:
"Most of the time what they do isn't difficult and doesn't in any way involve them putting "their lives on the line" but it's those odd moments when they are confronted with difficult situations (Does that man have a gun?) that make their lives stressful."
What many people don't realize (and I stressed this thru all levels of training, supervision and command) is that EVERY call an officer responds to involves a man/woman with a gun--his or her own. It's not common--but not unheard of--for an officer to be attacked with his or her own gun after being overpowered.
Just my thoughts. Feel free to debate my reasoning, but I feel I have an adequate basis of knowledge. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:09 AM on 02.20.09 |
| ->> I know, I know,I wasn't going to say anything else....someone please stop me...anyway, michael your right. if there is one thing I've learned, you are ALWAYS going to lose the argument with the boys (or girls) in blue at a crime scene/accident/ or donut shop robbery...it's taken me a long time but usually, unless it's something REALLY important I just walk away from any misinformed officer and attempt to shoot my photos from another angle. The problem which some of the posters on this message board DON'T have to deal with law enforcement in a professional capacity and have some pollyana 1950's idea of some sweet beat cop whistling as he walks down the sidewalk. They don't really understand when you are told by your boss to get photos in a public place and you are hindered in the said process of doing this by a misinformed law enforcement type three things usually happen. 1) almost !00% of the time the police become belligerent when told they are mistaken by hindering access 2) they threaten you with arrest for some unspecified charge 3) and these two add up to you probably miss the photo anyway. Usually I have tried to find a supervisor (higher ranking officer) who will sort things out. but in the long run most of the time it's not worth the hassle of getting worked up over. The point that some of the zealots have missed here is that no one said all law enforcement is bad. hell, not even close. I've seen three cops in the last 23 years here in durham dismissed, fired or retired for assaulting me and a couple of other journalists. what is the percentage of the number of total officers over the past quarter century? very very small. but the fact of the matter is, just like anything else, all it takes is one in these situations. but as michael sai, staying calm is the key. |
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Mark Smith, Photographer
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Elk City | OK | USA | Posted: 12:17 PM on 02.20.09 |
| ->> Kevin, I appreciate that there are parts of the Constitution that have more of an impact on police work than other parts. I would respectfully submit, however, that free speech is at the top of the list because it is crucially important to the people you serve. The fact that it very often gets easily overlooked by some officers, I believe, has as much to do with arrogance of power, as it does with limited training. That arrogance of power is exactly one of the things the 1st Amendment was written to combat. |
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