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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Paul Myers' Uncalled-for comments on Portfolio Review
Joshua Sy, Student/Intern
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 4:53 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> http://www.sportsshooter.com/student_portfolio/student_portfolio_review.htm...
I happened to be browsing through the student portfolio reviews today when I found Paul Myers' recent comments on Lance Booth's portfolio. I don't know either of these people, but I have to say that I think his portfolio review was highly inappropriate, to say the least.
I don't have a problem with the basic critique Paul gave Lance (better captions, avoid visual and topical cliches, bond better with the community). I agree that he could improve on these things. However, I take offense at the vitriolic character judgments Paul is making after seeing just a few photos.
I don't know what other knowledge Paul has of Lance beyond the photos we can all see online, but I definitely did not get the impression from Lance's portfolio that he is "not a nice person", or that he sees people "as objects to use, to poke fun at rather than to care about". I did not think his captions were "bold-faced lies", or that his photos are "sensationalist" or "fabricate reality".
Lance's photo of two white kids hauling off a black kid didn't make me think "hate crime" until Paul pointed it out - and even then, it seemed like a huge stretch, given the expressions on the kids' faces. And when I read about families taking WIC support in the caption, I don't immediately think the photographer is trying to paint the family as being irresponsible - he is probably just stating a fact. If anything, I feel like it is Paul trying to take this portfolio out of context by turning forgivable flaws and mistakes into harsh critiques of Lance's character.
Many of Paul's comments are uncalled for, especially in a public portfolio review which can be easily found (and taken out of context) by editors, clients and other potential employers for years to come. They are not constructive, and, based on the information I have (the photos), not accurate.
I realize that most people on SportsShooter are of an older school of photojournalism, and may have different views on what makes a good frame than younger photographers. As a student, I have a great deal of respect for my elders in the world of photojournalism, and I ask that they at least try to be respectful to us as well. We know we need to improve. Please give us constructive, relevant criticism rather than trying to publicly rip us to shreds. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 6:39 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> Joshua,
I did not read Paul's critique the same way you did.
Don't be so sensitive, toughen up. I rather like the way Paul told it straight out. so tired of everyone doing the nice sensitive guy approach.
Reminds me of last weekend at a top basketball showcase, high school kid comes up to a group of us with his shiny D3 talking about how he is not getting the images he had expected from the D3. Slow AF, dark images and the high ISO was crappy. The other guys responded with just the usual oh really?? I had to say something.
I tell him you go and spend $5000.00 on a digital dslr and then you put a crappy (yes, I said crappy) Tokina 28-200 3.8-5.6 $300.00 lens on it, and what is that you have on the front? He replies "that's a polarizer filter, my photo teacher said to always leave it on, to prevent reflections from the lights."
Yes this is what he had to shoot high school basketball indoors.
I told him save up some cash, get a decent lens for his camera, ( I suggested a lens) but for now, take the damn polarizer off that lens!!!
He removed the polarizer, and of course immediately saw improvement and thanked me for my advice.
He understood when I told him you don't buy a ferrari and then put bald tires and hub caps on the vehicle.
Joshua,
this high school kid did not break down crying.
You shouldn't either. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 8:00 AM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> I think a lot of the comments were thoughtful, legitimate concerns with the captions and their context of the photo. I think it's easy to look at a picture and talk about how nice the color and composition is, but I think Paul would have done Lance a disservice to ignore the content of the portfolio as a whole. He raised some interesting points. If you submit a portfolio for review and get only positive feedback, give it to someone else to review. |
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Juerg Schreiter, Photographer
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 8:40 AM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> I was somewhat surprised since none of P.Myers have any captions at all ! |
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Juerg Schreiter, Photographer
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 8:43 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> edit button:
none of P.Myers images |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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Kokomo | IN | | Posted: 8:54 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> This review sounds like some of the reviews I got when in college and earlier in my career. Except that was 10-15 years ago when reviews were done in a hallway sitting on the floor at a short course or some other workshop. And they weren't posted on the internet, it was just me and who ever I was lucky enough to grab that I thought might be able to give me some advice, some were fairly harsh yes, but I managed to survive. And with the way the job market is currently, I'm still managing to work for a newspaper, maybe some of the stuff that was said back then is helping me in ways now I don't even see, who knows.
Lance is still in college, trust me when I say its better he gets the kick in the ass he needs NOW when he can actually work on some of this stuff in the relatively safe environment of school rather than trying to find a job in an already crappy market and maybe all he gets are rejection letters and he can't figure out why. |
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Gerry Melendez, Photographer
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Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 10:02 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> First off, I don't know either reviewer or student.
Interesting review. After going through some of the images, I have to say the reviewer failed in many ways. While some of the student's captions failed to provide better information and lacked depth, in many instances they did their job. One image in particular that struck me was "Men and their Cars." The caption was basic but gave enough information for what a daily newspaper would use. The reviewer's last comment was "I am totally lost because your words do not tell me anything." I wasn't lost. Not at all. It's a nicely executed feature on a classic car show. Period. It's not an in-depth documentary one-year project on the man behind the wheel.
The reviewer was self-involved and maybe seeing his own work through this portfolio. Judge it for what it is. Critique it, don't criticize it. To call someone a liar is a bit much, unless you have more evidence than that of a single image in front of you.
Finally, to judge a student's character based on photos such as a kid sticking out his tongue is a bit much. I wonder what the reviewer thinks of some of the work done by Erwitt, who shot the lighter side of life, capturing moments similar to this one.
My feeling is that the student was looking for the quirky, the lighter side of life. I see his work as vignettes. A good start from someone trying to develop his style. Does he need work on his captions. Definitely. Does he need to get more involved in people's stories. Yes.
Maybe the student should have left the captions out. That way the shot of the kid sticking out his tongue would have been just that. A three year old acting like a three year old.
Pictures speak louder than words. |
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Jeff Blake, Photographer
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Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 10:42 AM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> I gotta agree with Gerry, judging someone's character based on a few images and captions is going over the line. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:45 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> I'm no stranger to harsh critiques and they certainly have their place, but I have to agree with Joshua on many points here. It's one thing to critique a portfolio, but I think Meyers' went a bit over the line making so many character assumptions like that. I've heard a LOT of portfolio reviews and I don't think I've heard anything that such a borderline character attack like this one. And I've heard Jay Maisel give many portfolio reviews.
If Meyers wants to bring Lance's character motives into question, there's more professional ways to do it. I'm not saying students need to be coddled or pampered, but I do feel there's more constructive ways to address these issues than the way Meyers did.
Also, if Meyers felt the need to make these assumptions and statements so bluntly, I agree they should've been made off the board in an email to the the student.
These portfolio reviews are supposed to be constructive to every student on SportsShooter, but I don't feel like many will benefit from this review, least of all Lance.
Just my opinion.
Brad |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> This thread brings up a very interesting aspect of our business that many photoj's never think about. By putting your photos on display you basically are asking for a critique. Whether it be in a publication, contest or portfolio review it's just part of the deal of doing this job. Some people will love your work. Some will hate it. You'll be told you have "vision". You'll be told you need to find a job as a fry cook. The first thing students should learn is it's all subjective. It took me over two decades of being frustrated over contest results to realize a) there were a lot of better shooters out there than me and b) most of the time every contest, even with the same photos entered, would end up with different results. Hearing harsh critiques of your work comes with the territory. Two years ago I got an email from a reader saying I had a great future as a "walmart portrait photographer". And honestly from the way it was written you couldn't tell if this person actually thought Walmart was a great place to go for portraits. (The photo was much like Lance's tongue sticking out shot) But the fact of the matter was, even if he was insulting me it was his opinion...several other people wrote they loved the frame. So yeah, you have to get some thicker skin if you're going to get into this business. And just remember, another reviewer will likely give comments 180 degrees from Mr. Myers. In fact, I have to say the photo Mr. Myers liked the best was, in my opinion, the weakest and most amateurish in the portfolio, but there you go, a difference of opinion. |
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Christopher Onstott, Photographer
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St. George | UT | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> Okay so Myers got a little personal, but I have to say that I got a review like this on the internet (at http://www.collegefrontpage.com) when I was in school from David Leeson and it felt like crap. But then I thought about it. Thought about what was said, looked at myself and my photography, and worked harder. I am always reminded of this critique and it has made me a better photographer. So Lance show this Myers guy what's up and go out there and make some great photos, tell some great stories. |
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David Eulitt, Photographer
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Kansas City | MO | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> My feeling is if you're going to critique a portfolio for a student or another up-and-coming professional in such a manner, the reviewer's own photographers better be crazy good. I mean, really really great. Like the absolute pinnacle of our profession (such as David Leeson).
Otherwise, the caustic remarks could, and should, be channeled into improving his own work. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Hudson | NH | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 02.14.09 |
->> Joshua,
Did you e-mail Paul Meyers before posting this thread?
If not, I think you could get better answers if you did (I think as journalists we all forget to do the reporting amongst our peers at times).
If yes, what did he say? |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> I agree with Dave.
However, I don't think you have to be the best photographer to critique someone's work, but be honest and not put yourself up on a pedestal. I'm not speaking of this instance particularly.
Often, when I critique photos taken by a student I share insights into my own shortcomings, but I tell them at the time that the issues I raise are ones I deal with myself.
Critiques I heard in college stick with me. I still remember critiques Charlie Reidel, Gary Haynes and Steven Fine gave me more than 15 years ago. |
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Carlos Delgado, Photographer
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Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 12:38 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> Come on, guys. I know it may hurt a kid's feelings a little bit to hear a scathing, borderline insulting review about their work, but that's probably the best thing that happened to poor Lance.
The last thing a student needs to hear is that their stuff is great and to keep doing what they're doing when their stuff is very far from great.
I know portfolio reviews are subjective and carry personal attitudes of the reviewer, but man up already. Now Lance is going to go out and make new and hopefully better pictures... or crawl into fetal position and sell his gear. When SI editors tore me a new one in the SS student contest, I didn't cry about it. I started from scratch. Man up. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 1:36 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> Carlos... I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Lance needs to hear is that stuff is great and to keep doing what he's doing. Tough love is part of the process. I think many here, including myself, just think Meyers' critique went too far and got too personal. Again, I think Meyers' could've gotten his point across just fine without calling Lance's personal character into question. |
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Carlos Delgado, Photographer
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Long Beach | CA | USA | Posted: 3:22 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> Bradley.. I also thought that it went too far with the personal character assumptions, but that's besides the point. If you ask someone to give you their opinion of your work, you can't hold them accountable for their opinion.
This thread pops up every time a student gets a review that was "too harsh, offending, etc." My photoj teacher back in school was firm but never insulting, even to the students that were screaming Wal-mart photographer. Sure you can go about it a different way, but I've noticed that the reviews that sting are the reviews that stay in your head for the longest. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 4:12 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> Is questioning the character of the reviewer really a good responce to review where you didn't like the fact the reviewer questions the character of the photographer ?
Especially when you yourself admit you dont even know either of those people ?
I mean come on Josh, you said yourself "Please give us constructive, relevant criticism rather than trying to publicly rip us to shreds."
Seems to me that deserving or not, your thread here is basically doing nothing but publically ripping Paul Myers to shreds.
You just called out a respected photographer who you've never meet and dragged his name through the mud in a very public setting based off reading his comments on one student portfolio.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. |
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Michael Chansley, Photographer, Assistant
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Tucson | AZ | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> There is always room for improvement. Paul just told them what to do in a way that sticks with the student so they remember and are pushed to improve. He saw a flaw in the work and just told them straight up what they need to do. You don't need to be an award winning photographer to point some of these things out. |
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Aaron Suozzi, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 6:02 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> I know Paul Myers, I went to school with him, then worked with him in Marysville, CA. and now, Paul teaches at Brooks Institute of Photography. In my opinion, he is very qualified to say what he did. They guy knows what he is talking about and can back it up. When I was working with Paul, his portraiture always amazed me, he could capture the soul of a person in a way I only could only dream about. He is passionate, talented and a really nice guy.
Now, when you put your work out there and request a professional to review it, be prepared for whatever that person says to you. I remember when I got my first portfolio review it was from a photo editor at the San Francisco Chronicle. Lets just say this guy tore into me ... was it necessary ... probably not. But as a result of that critique, I decided to really push myself and learn as much as possible so I would never give someone a reason to tell me "to keep my day job."
An honest critique is the best thing any photographer can ask for, it doesn't matter if you are a student or a professional. Be prepared, list to what they say and ask questions if you don't understand.
That's my 2¢ for what it's worth, which is probably less than 2¢. |
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Jeff Blake, Photographer
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Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 6:16 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> How is Myers calling a student, based only on their photos, "not a nice person" and calling them a "liar" constructive criticism? |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 6:29 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> I agree with Jeff here. If Meyers wanted to be blunt, he could've said, "Lance, your captions suck. They don't seem to have much context with your photos. Being a good photojournalist is not only about making good, story-telling photographs, but it's also about gathering relevant information to supplement your images. Don't be lazy. Make the extra effort to get that information to support your photos.
Instead, he says, "...my first impression is that you are not a nice person, definitely not someone I want telling stories about in my neighborhood and this is based on your images. I am serious. You do not like people or at the very least you see them as objects to use, to poke fun at rather than to care about."
Ironically, in my experience looking at portfolios for our internships, I've noticed that students from Brooks typically have great images but don't write the best captions. Go figure. I think I've pointed this out the Greg Cooper at one time or another. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 7:01 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> I won't put words in Mr. Myers mouth. He's an adult and obviously a gifted photographer and can speak for himself.
I "get" his comments.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If Paul looked at my work and made the same comments, I would hurt, no doubt because he was VERY DIRECT - but...
I would also understand that he felt I wasn't engaged in telling my subject's story, and that I needed a spiritual readjustment ( Martin Buber's "Thou and I" reference).
Life is tough. School is where you learn the rules. Experience is where you get to learn which ones to apply in a given situation. Paul was,imho,giving Lance a head start on learning the application part. The kid needs to be engaged with the work and he wasn't.
End of story. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 7:03 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> If that's the impression that Paul got from the photos, isn't it reasonable to conclude that others will come away with the same impression? Now matter how you word it, in Paul's opinion, Lance not only missed the bull's eye he missed the whole freakin' target!
Personally, whenever I see someone miss the mark, my reaction is usually inline with my perception of their potential. If the result is close to my expectations, no matter how poor the execution, it's not going to bother me. It's when someone with real potential and talent fails that I get pissed. Kinda like with my kids. :-)
Frankly, Lance should take it as a compliment that Paul took the time to communicate the specifics of his displeasure. He could just as easily have said "you suck" and left it at that.
In the end, it comes down to one simple rule: NEVER ask a question unless you really want to hear the answer. |
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Adam Vogler, Photographer
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Pittsburg | KS | USA | Posted: 7:09 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> Personally I don't show my work to other photogs to hear about how great I am. If I want that I'll show my photos to my mom. The whole point of a portfolio review is to find out what people think of the work that you use to get a job. I actually get reviews in order TO get my work ripped to shreds. THATS HOW I GET BETTER.
Mr. Meyer's full quote is here, "As a portfolio, my first impression is that you are not a nice person, definitely not someone I want telling stories about in my neighborhood and this is based on your images."
He says "This is based on your images." If this is the work Lance is sending out looking for internships and post grad jobs and the impression given by said work is that he isn't a nice person then I would think that it would be irresponsible for a reviewer NOT to point this out. I don't see this as calling Lance a bad person but telling him that that is the impression he is giving.
I have to be honest I kinda agree with Meyer's opinion that there is a bit of a disconnect between the subject of the frames and the cut-lines
He also told Lance to "Keep up the good work"
It was a crit, nothing more nothing less. |
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Chris Stanfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 8:28 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> Photography is subjective. Paul Myers donated his time and shared his thoughts - which is something SportsShooter has been asking all of us to do more of. He was honest - some may argue to a fault.
Sorry, but I fail to see what the problem is. If you don't like the comments, offer some of your own to balance what you may perceive to be an unfair landscape.
If you can't take criticism from one of our own, how are you supposed to act when people are yelling, crying or upset with you while on assignment.
Photojournalism isn't for everyone.
Regards |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> It doesn't hurt to have some tact. A light touch, as it were.
There's a subtle difference between criticism and beration. I think he crossed that line, but the line is subjective.
My $.02 |
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
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Columbus | NE | USA | Posted: 10:39 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> After looking at Lance's portfolio, my first impression is that he's a very nice guy. |
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Dave Collyer, Photographer
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Haleiwa | HI | USA | Posted: 11:23 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> Young grasshopper learn this lesson well...Someday when you great teacher you must remain humble... |
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Rich Cruse, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 11:36 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> I guess what has touched a nerve is not so much about the comments, but the forum. Normally when you submit a portfolio for critique, those criticisms remain between those reviewing the portfolio and the artist/photographer.
Here these comments are for everyone to see. This means the words must be chosen more carefully and should be only about the work. Leave out the personal stuff or save it for a private message. That is just common courtesy. It is like getting chewed out in front of the entire office. Personally, I wouldn't stand for that. You can tell me what you have to say one on one.
Mr. Booth didn't ask to be berated. He was looking for criticism of his work. I think he got more than he bargained for. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 11:40 PM on 02.14.09 |
| ->> With that said Rich, I think this entire thread should have been avoided and kept to a private email... |
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Christopher Szagola, Photographer
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Richboro | PA | United States | Posted: 11:54 PM on 02.14.09 |
->> No matter what side you are on, this is an old saying that this reminds me of.
"Opinions are like bleeps, everyone has one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks."
sorry for the censorship, trying to clean up my ways... |
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G.M. Andrews, Photographer
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Mobile | AL | USA | Posted: 1:04 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> Photojournalism suffers the thin-skinned poorly.
It's one thing to make a photo and hang it on the wall of your home, safe from the prying eyes of the world and insulated from the disparaging word.
It's another to choose to be a photojournalist, where your work is put in print (or online) before thousands of eyes on a daily basis. You will hear praise and scorn, sometimes at the same time.
I've received letters and call from readers who've liked my work, and gotten the same from people who found my pictures distasteful. You move on. The same goes for people who curse you at spot-news scenes. You move on. Or as a poster above wrote, you man up.
No one trips, and falls accidentally into photojournalism. It's a conscious decision. You have to be willing to accept criticism. Both the spoken/written kind, and the subtle criticism of not having your photos published. In these times of shrinking news holes and shrinking photo staffs at publications, you have to be tough.
I've had the stinging critiques of my work from long-time professionals, and I took it to heart, and tried to become a better photographer. Those are the lessons that really stick. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 1:54 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> My opinion was that it would have been more tactful and informative to actually have a conversation with the person you are criticizing.
How does that get 2 "Huh?"s... You can disagree, but lets lay off the buttons. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | USA21 | Posted: 2:11 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> Maybe if Lance is lucky, two well-meaning, long-haired musicians will appear out of thin air and send him through a vortex where he'll meet a magical Native American and listen to some power rock ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTDiUmSv5kg
So uplifting ...
- g - |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 5:02 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> Has anyone commenting on this thread actually spoken with Mr. Myers or Mr. Booth to get their side of the story ?
Do we know that Lance felt hurt or offended or are we simply feeling the need to react on his behalf even though he may actually have been appreciative to have a photographer such as Paul Myers review his portfolio ?
Does anyone know for sure what exchanges if any may have taken place between those two individuals after said review of portfolio ?
Wouldn't it be wise to perhaps find out how Lance actually feels about said review and if he personally found it uncalled for ? Or if perhaps Paul later clarified some of his comments to be more constructive or cleared up what point he might of been trying to make ?
Seems we are all to quick to jump all over someone publically when we don't know all the facts.
And sorry but got to say, for the 4 people who marked my previous post "huh", Are you stupid or something ? Do you have trouble reading the English language ?
I mean seriously, call it "inappropriate" if you disagree with me but why on earth "huh" ?
What is "huh" about anything I said ? Where they not clear and logical thoughts in relation to the very topic of the thread ? I think they were. Maybe the very fact that 5 people found it informative, or that 3 other people emailed and said they agreed, sort of would lean someone to think that the words do make sense, are presented in a logical order to form coherent setence structure and in relation to the topic. |
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Chris Stanfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 5:44 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> Jeff,
First post:
"Is questioning the character of the reviewer really a good responce to review where you didn't like the fact the reviewer questions the character of the photographer ? "
Second Post:
"And sorry but got to say, for the 4 people who marked my previous post "huh", Are you stupid or something ? Do you have trouble reading the English language ?"
What you typed isn't English. Sorry, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume this is why people marked your post the way they did. |
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Kent Nishimura, Student/Intern
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Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 5:54 PM on 02.15.09 |
->> I agree with some of the folks on here that the entire thread should;ve been avoided, and that the conversation should have have been conducted via email.
perhaps a disclaimer should be posted on portfolio review section?
i don't know. seems like because someone made a choice to question a fellow photographers integrity, and called him/her on it, it's sparked a whole lot of un-necessary discussion, and back and forth.
i do however want the record to show that I've suffered through some pretty harsh critiques...but i did go in knowing full well that i would be getting "torn a new one." That and applying for internships. Having only been shooting for a year and a half i expected getting rejected from many many places.
lets all share the "Aloha Spirit!"
=) |
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Thomas Boyd, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 2:18 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> Joshua Sy: "I realize that most people on SportsShooter are of an older school of photojournalism, and may have different views on what makes a good frame than younger photographers."
I've read all of Paul's critique. I've read all these comments. And it's Joshua's statement above that irritates me the more than anything else I've read in this thread.
Here's why:
There are photographers who consistently make interesting, story-telling images and there are photographers who don't. As far as I can tell, age has nothing to do with it. (Some get better, some don't)
Worse yet, this implies there's some secret new way of seeing photojournalism and only the young guys have the secret password.
It's true, I'm an old guy (43) with 19-years in the business, and that's probably why the statement above rubbed me wrong. But, I've never judged a photographer based on their age. The great thing about photojournalism is that's it's largely a meritocracy. We are all judged by our images, and that's what Paul Myer's was asked to do.
When a student chooses a reviewer, they are asking to be judged and they need to listen to what's said, look at the work of the judge, and try to figure out how it applies to their future work. The fact of the matter is, Paul has a more sophisticated way of looking at an image than most students. While his comments were more negative than positive, that's what he saw and felt compelled to write.
I've given much harsher critiques face to face than Paul did. I'm sure I've hurt some feelings and egos over the years. They asked for it, and I gave them the best I had. I just hope it was helpful in some way and I'm sure Paul hopes his comments were helpful as well.
The beauty of having the critiques posted for everyone to see, is that we are all learning something. I read all the critiques that are written on the student contest. I not only learn about new ways of seeing an image, I learn about the language of visual story-telling. I learn about the simple idea of what makes a successful image and what falls flat. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 2:19 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> discussion is good. the original poster has a point he is trying to make, and i think that is ok. to that end, i read the review as well. my opinion here is that a critical review is great. here's what you did, this part is weak, this is what you might try next time. that is a tool that many rely upon during their growth as a- whatever.
i think that saying a photographer should 'reconsider his reason for wanting to enter the field' is not likely going to help the student make better photographs. i might be wrong about that. maybe it would- but it wouldn't help me. there were a bunch of other constructive, thoughtful, practical words of advice that will probably make the student a better photog over night.
perhaps it's the lack of kindness and respect, maybe humility that some are fired up about.?
reviews on this site are fascinating. i have seen some really nice work from students that gets ripped pretty good. almost like the reviewer thinks they are not effective if they don't nit-pick down to the pixel. maybe that approach is best in this area. that alone is not what interests me. what is really puzzling is the unconditional love certain pro photographers get when they update. i have a few examples that i'm thinking of- maybe you all do too, maybe not. i am way too chicken to say them. the point is, i've seen praise for some news stuff that isin't all that praise-worthy, period. this stuff is hard. making good photos is not a given, is it? there are all kinds of elements that want to ruin your frame, and even your day all the time.
anyway, discussion is good. |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:31 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> Has anyone actually messaged Lance and asked him how he felt about the critique of his work?
Just a thought... |
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Tyler Orsburn, Photographer
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San Salvador | El Salvador | | Posted: 8:51 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> Anyone can take a harsh critique; that's not the point. The point is slander. I believe you can sue for slander.
Does it matter what Lance thinks about his critique? Damage has been done to his character for every photo editor to read.
On the other hand, some say there is no such thing as bad PR. Maybe Lance will land a job from all this. |
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Chip Litherland, Photographer
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Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:40 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> As someone who is chosen to do these reviews on a pretty regular basis (and I was the second reviewer on the grassy knoll for Lance's portfolio), I have to say I can definitely see both sides of the coin on this one.
The bottom line is that photography is completely subjective, and by putting our work out there for our peers to see everyday we are just asking for a wide range of opinions. Hell, if you have ever worked for a newspaper, you get to hear it everyday from readers that don't know the first thing about composition and f/stops. Sometimes you just run into someone who is just pissed off and is looking for something to complain about. I've learned to nod, thank them, and then spend the next 2 seconds letting it go.
I feel like it's Paul's right to say whatever he wants. Do I agree with what he said? Not entirely, and I think there's a way to say the same things without coming off like he did. That's just a personality thing.
That being said, I remember my bad reviews more than I do my good ones. You know what? It made me better. Do I resent them or hold a grudge? Sure. But it's all in context, only because I was ripped apart by an editor where I really wanted to work. The other was a shooter that I have a ton of respect for - and still do. I remember nearly every word of those critiques and benefit from them everyday. It keeps me grounded.
Another instance, I was pulled aside, cornered by the 3 biggest editors at my best internship and told to never tilt a frame again for as long as I work there. I still do it....probably more than I should. That editor also had a great point, he just made it rather bluntly and to the extreme. Five minutes alter he explained why and now I get it and can explain to someone when and where tilting works. I tilt all the time now...but I can at least recognize when I'm using it as a gimmick and when it works for the situation I'm in.
There's little benefit for a student to receive a glowing review. There's also little benefit for a student to get ripped apart and left for dead. Point is, when you get your work looked at, you're putting yourself out there for the masses to critique. You take all of those opinions and leave them as just that - opinions.
I told Lance this, but I think a lot of students should really let go of what constitutes a portfolio these days. It's absolute hell in the market right now and making yourself stand out among the pack is what is going to get yourself noticed. It is your eye, your work, and your career...people will hire you for you and not for some manufactured, cookie cutter portfolio that has every category covered and two stories. Want to shoot half-naked women? Fine fill your book with half-naked women. Want to shoot sports? Fill it with sports. Want to shoot for newspapers? Good luck. Whatever you put in, though, it better be good and - more importantly - uniquely yours. The point is, you need to let go of everything you were taught in regards to what should be in your portfolio. It is a new world.
You have to find your niche. Look at Matt Mallams. He's a perfect example. He does his own thing, and really just makes the photos he wants to make. He creates journals on his own time and rephotographs them. He show shows work in unconventional places. He overexposes the hell out of his stuff. He disobeys every notion of what is considered "good." This is someone who was recently churned through a photo school and spit out into the newspapers market at first . I'm sure there have been a ton of reviewers who thought, "What the hell is this?" His work is very much his an his alone...
Now I'm rambling. Here's the rub: I don't know either Lance or Paul. No idea what they are like in "real" life. But everyone should just take a step back and realize that this is just one review out of hundreds Lance will get in his career. It should not and will not define him.
Old people like Boyd rule...AARP card is in the mail, buddy.
Chip |
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Bill Gaither, Photographer
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Galesburg | IL | United States | Posted: 9:52 AM on 02.16.09 |
->> Just throwing my 2¢ in after reading all the seeing the porfolio, reviewer's comments and the thread that's followed and ultimately we have to remember that it's all opinion. I love feedback on anything I shoot, good or bad, because I always learn from it. Sure, if it's bad, I take it a bit harsh at first, and defensive. I'm human after all. But I learn from it.
I was one of those college kids who sent a ton of portfolios out, hoping for a job of internship, but at minimum, to at least have a critique and was fortunate enough to have several responses in critiques (plus eventually internships, jobs). Some were nice, and others destroyed my work, but it does really make you look within and re-access your goals and reasons for wanting to pursue the passion that is this field. Paul's comments may have rubbed me the wrong way too but he took the time to do a review and no one's out there really wanting to destroy another's work. Lance may have perceived it as harsh or may take it and learn from it.
Remember it's all opinion, and it should be valued, but it's also not the gospel. I say this as no disrespect and I hope no one takes it that way because I admire many photographers here. Ultimately we all walk our own path and the critiques merely push us towards one path or the other. |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 12:24 PM on 02.16.09 |
->> Paul's critique says "How does this photo help people?".
I'm wondering about this. Should the goal always be to "help"? |
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Eric Neitzel, Photographer, Assistant
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Stockton | CA | USA | Posted: 9:47 PM on 02.16.09 |
->> Joshua,
I am not even going to take the time to read through this whole thread but I can tell you one thing.
Paul Myers was one of my teachers at Brooks. He was one of my favorite and I still talk to him every once and a while.
Paul Myers is a great individual and a great photographer...I know this from experience. He is also very honest and up front in his critiques of student work, some may think harsh, but no...he is honest. Paul spent his time working as a pro news photographer before he was a teacher...I believe that makes him qualified to make comments on such pictures.
And I am sure someone may have already said this, but one thing REALLY bothers me. I dont care what your opinion of anyone is...you are completely entitled to that opinion, but a public forum is NOT the place to air those concerns.
Maybe you should take some time to talk to Paul one on one before you go posting a big, long message on SportsShooter. Internet forums are not the place for things such as this. Posting something like this just makes people want to not offer up their valuable time to judge images because it will make people think all students want to hear is a bunch of fluff.
Believe me, I had PF Bentley as a teacher. If any of you know him you know what I am talking about and how harsh and honest his critiques were. You have him critique your images sometime and then you can come to me and whine about a couple online picture comments that you dont agree with.
Just my opinion. |
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John Harrington, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 12:51 AM on 02.17.09 |
->> I'm going to write something here that will be unpopular with many of the students/interns, but, well, so be it.
If your status here on SS is "Student/Intern", you need to be more circumspect in who you call out. Sorry to be so blunt, but this isn't the Special Olympics, and not everyone gets a trophy and a pat on the back for their performance.
Every photographer here wants to get "called up" to "the show", and play in the big leagues. They want to compete against the staff photographer who's won a pulitzer. They want to stand shoulder to shoulder with the repeat POY winners, and call them "my colleagues".
A pervasive mentality has swept the high schools about 10 years ago, and it's crept into colleges and now many of those beginning their professional careers, of deserving of success. No one gets an "F", and if you feel that 2+2=5, well, then, that's ok if you feel that way.
You have to earn your way to the top - there are no short cuts, and the path has become more treacherous as staff positions become more and more scarce. Freelancing is even harder.
If you are a student - ask good questions, and then pay attention to the answer. If you respect someone enough to ask them the question, you should have done your due diligence in determining if the person you are asking knows what they're talking about. Don't ask a staffer what it's like to be freelance, or how to charge for a freelance gig. Almost all of them treat freelance work like gravy, while the rest of us see that work as meat and potatoes, and know what the market will bear, where to a staffer, it's walking around money.
If you've ever sat in the back of a room where judging was taking place, and had the privilege of watching and listening to the judges at work, you learned a lot. If your work was there, and you heard three people say "out", well, that's one thing. If two people said "out", and the third started arguing for it, then the other two will start trashing it, rightly or wrongly, with a politically-correct attitude or not, and you'll learn a lot about how the viewers/readers will perceive your photos when they're published.
Sitting around listening to your friends pay you compliments is worth very little, except that it's a nice stroke of your ego. When I have solicited the opinion of my friends on my work, I have said to them "don't say nice things, tell me what's wrong with it..." and when they would say they couldn't find anything wrong with a particular image, I knew I had a winner.
What Paul said, people - many people - likely thought. You don't have to like what Paul said - heck, you don't even have to agree with it. Whether I like it, or agree with it, is irrelevant. And if what he said was offensive to some, get over it. FAST.
If you've ever been sitting around waiting for a rain delay at a NASCAR track, in a ballpark, or waiting for a delayed press conference anywhere, you've heard photographers talk about other photographers work, and not in pleasant terms. The criticisms are straight, honest, and blunt, and they are often profanity laden. The same goes for photo editors. I know many a photo editor, and they know a good photo from a bad one, and they can see the perspective. This makes them good photo editors - they can send someone they know is a compassionate, quiet person, to a funeral, and they can send the aggressive guy who listens to Rob Zombie and Marilyn Manson to the event where they might be most comfortable. They can send the guy who can recite accurate sports stats while drunk to the ballgame, and so on, and so forth.
So, if you want to pour a double-espresso, or work the photo booth at Wal-Mart or the olde-tyme photo shop at a resort town, then feel free to whine when your feelings get hurt. If you want to step up your game, and earn a shot at "the show", then you'll not take your critiques personally, and instead, you'll respect the opinions of those who have been around and know a thing or two about good photos, and maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 1:03 AM on 02.17.09 |
| ->> Thanks John Harrington! |
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Jordan Murph, Photographer, Assistant
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Carlsbad & Honolulu | CA/HI | USA | Posted: 1:17 AM on 02.17.09 |
| ->> Amen |
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Alan Stewart, Photographer
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Corydon | IN | USA | Posted: 8:38 AM on 02.17.09 |
->> I don't think I could have said things any better than John and Chip said.
If you submit a portfolio for others to review, then you danged well better be ready to hear not-so-nice things about work you poured your heart into. Does it hurt? Hell yes, it does, but I would rather someone whose work I respect tell me everything I did wrong with a photo, versus hear only what I did right.
We don't get better with our successes. We get better when we correct our mistakes. |
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