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What Peter Read Miller is doing on Sunday
Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 5:30 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> The 13 year old's business model from the story.......
"Then he started his own business. He goes to local events, shoots as many photos as he can and sells them for $1 a print."
Maybe Peter will coach him on business too. |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 01.31.09 |
| ->> Does a 13-year-old really belong on the sidelines of the Super Bowl? |
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Todd Spoth, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 5:53 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> $500/month isnt bad for a 13 year old.
sucks that he didnt get his name under his photo. "courtesy photo" welcome to the business Ben! lol |
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Kevin Seale, Photographer
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Crawfordsville | IN | United States | Posted: 7:49 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> After looking at his website, it appears the kid takes his photography pretty seriously. My opinion from looking at how hard he works at it, he deserves to be on the sideline as much as any of the P&S toting "friends of the organization".
I think a story by Mr. Miller about the time he spent with the kid would make a great newsletter story.
I would also be curious how many SS members were making $500/mo at 13 doing anything, much less from sports photography.
$500/mo = $6,000/yr. Assuming a steady income, by 25 he will have made $72,000 and have 12+ years experience. Given he is already a local celebrity photographer I'd say he has a rather promising future in photography if thats what he wants to do.
I wish him nothing but the best and hope he has the time of his life. |
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Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 8:40 PM on 01.31.09 |
| ->> I've hired adult freelancers that didn't shoot as well as he does.... |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 9:43 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> "Does a 13-year-old really belong on the sidelines of the Super Bowl?"
So... at what age is one too young... or too old to be on the sidelines of the Super Bowl?
-- Mike |
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Rich Gabrielson, Photographer
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Rapid City | SD | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> The article says;
He will spend four hours with Miller on Saturday...
If it matters... |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 01.31.09 |
->> Rich, I didn't see that. I think it does make a difference that it's Saturday, and not actually during the game, for a few reasons. The first, is the child's safety. We've all seen stories about pro photographers with years of experience being taken out by a player. Imagine a 250 pound player taking out a 13-year-old kid.
Second, is the fact that the sidelines are already crowded enough and he could be taking the spot of a working professional that might have been denied access.
Mike O'Bryon, I think one should at least be an adult to be on the sidelines.
I take my hat off to the kid's go-getter attitude, but I just don't think sideline access should be a contest prize, or be given to the highest bidder. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 12:33 AM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> The entire event is auctioned off to the highest bidder. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:55 AM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> So there you go. Everyone on this site bitching and moaning about losing money......some kid wins a contest.....not blaming him...but he gets the chance of a life time...and we wonder why this business is going down the shitter. give me a friggin break, SO WHAT. make that kid go out day after day and hour after hour and produce quality redeeming photos that IMPACT all of us. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. and may I also add $! a f*@king print? why don't we all just buy a f*@king gun and blow our brains out? obviously from some of the posts here regarding this...well you guys DO NOT make a living in the photo business...sorry, we've had VERY bad news this week in our office and this kind of crap irritates the living shit out of me. this nonsense diminishes what we do... |
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Rod Leland, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Lethbridge | AB | Canada | Posted: 4:33 AM on 02.01.09 |
->> I'm SO, SO, So split on this topic and post. I feel compelled to comment because it seems fairly controversial.
The first thing I thought was "Wow. Not a bad frame for a 13-year old"
Then, I looked at his site. It seems he has a love affair with on camera flash, which I detest many times over.
After that, I re-read the comments here and tried to form an opinion. Here's what I think. First off, I think it's great that an individual so young is making a real effort to learn a craft that we all know takes many, many, many years to even approach mastering.
His business approach bothers me. I'm sure it hits home with everyone on the SS boards because it's been a very hot topic for a long time now, and is even more important given the current economic state. However, I would assume that Ben's pricing scheme was created not to mess with us and compromise the industries pricing model, but out of ignorance, and I mean that in a non-negative manner. Also, keep in mind a thirteen-year-old kid has a business model at all. What were you doing for money when you were 13?
At 13, and in today's age and time, I'm thankful that he learned camera basics shooting film. He may spray and pray at events with a DLSR but if he learned shooting film, and can produce in-focus, properly-exposed (albeit basically-composed) images, I give him props for that. As Patrick mentioned, those traits/skills aren't a given.
In the end, I see a young photographer who had a LOT of room to grow but shows a lot of potential not only in showing a large amount of personal drive but some form of commitment and business sense. Sure, his business model sucks but maybe a couple hours with Read-Miller will help him in more ways than one. Besides, At 13, he was outshooting me, and I'm sure most of you.
I give him props. Besides, Aware of age restrictions but for a point: I'd rather see an ambitious 13-year-old win than a lucky soccer mom. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 7:21 AM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> For those of you wondering, the NFL rule is no one under 18 can be credentialed for the sideline -- regular season or playoff or Super Bowl. May be 16 but pretty sure it's 18. I have actually seen younger looking folks have their license checked and seen some denied access to the sidelines. |
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John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Gates Mills | OH | USA | Posted: 9:37 AM on 02.01.09 |
->> George,
You are correct, the age is 18. There are sometimes children on the field before a game, or even during the game, but I've never seen one with a photo pass taking pictures. |
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Thomas Quinn, Photographer
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Valparaiso | IN | USA | Posted: 10:24 AM on 02.01.09 |
->> I am just going to say one thing about the age and sideline thing. Money Talks. Look at the photo vest you have to wear that has the patch of Canon. I remember hearing a few Super bowls ago, if your hat has a logo that is not approved, it has to be turned around to the crowd not the TV.
I am sure Canon has given the NFL quite a bit of money to be a sponsor of this nature. I am sure the NFL will allow this 13 year old to be on the sidelines.
Second, I applaud this 13 year old. We all had to start with a camera sometime and 23 years ago, I had a K1000 and a Vivitar 285 Flash and took horrible photos. I can't say my photos have improved (Joke here) but I can say I have learned a lot from here and other workshops, as well as talking to people etc.
The kid won a contest. He didn't pay the judges off but he entered and his photo was picked as the winner. Congrats! |
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Steve Apps, Photographer
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Madison | WI | USA | Posted: 12:39 PM on 02.01.09 |
->> I was a judge for this contest along with Peter Read Miller and other very talented photographers.
The contest sponsored by Canon USA and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, was broken down in to adult and youth divisions, and then feature and action categories.
The judges were to pick the top seven photos from each of the four groups and they were displayed on a Canon website. The final winners were picked by friends, family, and others who voted for their favorite pictures online.
It was my understanding that the top winners in youth and adult divisions, received tickets to the Superbowl, not shooting credentials.
I will say that there were a lot of great photos in the youth division, and it was fun to judge. |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 4:26 PM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> congrats to the kid, I am sure he is feeling nothing but joy and honor. This will be something he will always remember. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Hudson | NH | USA | Posted: 5:26 PM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> Ben Queen 2015 Sportsshooter.com shooter of the year. |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 9:12 PM on 02.01.09 |
| ->> Congrats to the kid, he has a passion and plenty of time to improve in both photography and with his business model. Hell, I'd rather compete against his business plan of $1.00 prints than some of those in this area; like the guy who's prices start at .15 cents - or the guy charging less than a nickel a piece for digital images on CD - or of course the GWC's who give there stuff away. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 10:16 PM on 02.01.09 |
->> A forum of highly trained, experienced pros freaking out about a 13 year old kid who won a contest? Wow.
Next up: State Fair photo contests - good clean fun or a sign of the apocalypse? |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central | NJ | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 02.02.09 |
->> Hmmm...how many people who have posted here have directly contacted and chided Sportsshooter member #29 Peter Read Miller about his direct and irrefutable contribution to "This Week's World's Worst Thing To Happen To Pro Photography"®?
On a different note:
Wouldn't "Twwwtthtpp®" would be a great name for a chicken little-type industry blog? Maybe Sylvester Cat could be licensed as the mascot...
Archived seed content could include:
-Posts dated Summer '06 lambasting comedian-turned-photographer (and future Bob Barker replacement) Drew Carey for stealing YOUR RIGHTFUL SPOT on the sidelines of the World Cup.
-That time when a teenage fangirl blogger posted a couple shots of Michael Phelps and felt the wrath of the entire Sportsshooter community (well, more like 10 extremely vocal people, that is) calmly, politely, and professionally explaining the dos and don'ts of fair usage.
-Pete Souza (Sportsshooter # 747) and the Obama White House debacle...
-The Greenberg clause.
We could probably just set up a random straight-from-the-message boards feed and get about a 73% on-target for Twwwtthtpp® content pull, I reckon... |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 12:54 PM on 02.02.09 |
| ->> Way to go kid! As in most careers (photography included), its part talent and part luck (being in the right place at the right time). This kid had a bit of both and capitalized on it. How can anyone begrudge him that? I wonder how many people here wrote PRM and told him how hurtful and wrong this was for the business. Read Lowrance's bio and how he got his start or many others as well. Be good and be ready to go when you get the chance. Again, congrats to this kid, hope his time there was awesome! |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 02.02.09 |
| ->> OT? Hey if you disagree with me it's fine, but sign your name to the nasty emails. thanks. love and kisses, chuck |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:20 PM on 02.02.09 |
->> I don't see where ANYONE, me included, is begrudging the kid in any way. More power to him, here's to hoping that someday he IS sportshooter of the year or a POYi winner. All I'm saying is that SOONER rather than later someone should enlighten the lad that being the "Home of the $1 Print" may not be the best idea he's had in his brief 13 years.
From a much more pessimistic point of view, I can only hope that if Kevin's numbers are even remotely close to accurate and that the kid is pulling down $5k or $6K that SOMEONE is helping him file all the proper tax forms and making the scheduled payments. DOR won't give a rat's @ss whether he's 13 or 35 if the money hasn't been reported and taxed.
Photographic talent and business sense don't go hand in hand. Not toooo long ago there was a story about 2 teens that were shooting red carpet events and even doing the paparazzi thing, the difference is that they were getting 'normal' rates for their work. One of the kids had made $10K off of a single Britney shot. Somewhere along the road THAT kid learned to put photography AND cash into a winning enterprise. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 3:57 PM on 02.02.09 |
| ->> Chuck, I completely agree with you on this point. It's one thing to take a counter viewpoint but if you're going to attack someone in email (which is lame to begin with) at least have the cajones to stand up behind it. That's just weak and I'm sorry to hear about that happening Chuck. Happened to me as well some time back and I thought it was just as lame then. |
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Diana Porter, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 4:05 PM on 02.02.09 |
| ->> He wasn't on the sidelines on Super Bowl Sunday. He spent 4 hours with Peter on SATURDAY. Probably hung out with with him after the presentation with Archie Manning at the NFL Experience. |
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Sheen Yen, Photographer
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West Lafayette | IN | USA | Posted: 5:20 PM on 02.02.09 |
->> If the kid didn't sell his prints for $1, then I doubt he'd get much business before people realized he had great material. Who knows, now he just might start charging "normal rates!" Good for him. He definitely has a lot of talent and if anything, it's a great thing for kids to get involved/busy in, regardless of what they are charging. I wish I were that motivated at that age, and had that spirit.
Congrats to him, I'm sure he had a great time and I hope he gained a lot from that experience. |
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Rich Cruse, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 5:29 PM on 02.02.09 |
->> I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was his age. I look forward to seeing more of his images!
I would encourage everyone to mentor young photographers. Sometimes they teach YOU something as well. ;-) |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 5:31 PM on 02.02.09 |
->> "If the kid didn't sell his prints for $1, then I doubt he'd get much business before people realized he had great material."
Seeing as I missed my chance at getting an MBA I'll have to assume that given your training in business this must be a sound model.
Now if y'all excuse me I have a seizure coming on...... |
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Sheen Yen, Photographer
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West Lafayette | IN | USA | Posted: 7:55 PM on 02.02.09 |
->> He was occupying and dominating the low cost position of his market, which was perceivably the best he could do given his capital and experience. In addition, maybe the market price for sports photos made by 13 year olds is inefficient. I hope he's since transitioned, or is preparing a transition to a more differentiated product strategy. From the resource based view of his firm, he definitely has tremendous potential.
:) |
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Ray Anderson, Photographer
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San Francisco | CA | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 02.03.09 |
->> Great story glad to see the young lad make it to the super bowl he earned it and hats off to Peter what a great man to tutor this boy.
Thank you Peter for taking the time. |
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Colter Ray, Student/Intern, Photographer
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San Marcos | TX | United States | Posted: 11:44 AM on 02.03.09 |
->> The kid is 13.
The kid is 13.
I repeat,
The kid is 13.
Do you expect him to know how to price photos? Jeez people, lay off!
I think some of you should focus more on actual photography instead of getting on SportsShooter everyday and bitching about 13-year-old children.
This board gets more frustrating and annoying by the day. |
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Dominick Reuter, Photographer, Assistant
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Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 12:03 PM on 02.03.09 |
| ->> It's just refreshing to see a contest winning photo without enhanced vignetting and saturation and souped up blacks. ;-) |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 02.03.09 |
->> Even though this business stuff effects me, I really don't care to read bitching about it. It's infinitely more demoralizing.
I debated whether to pay the $25 this year because of the sour grapes. It's not about the money, it's about whether I wanted to continue to associate with people so focused on injustice. I do that just fine on my own. It's why I pretty much refuse to watch Nancy Grace.
I would prefer constructive business ideas, but we're unlikely to hear that discussion since the forum is public. And thus I'm starting to look elsewhere. |
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Joseph Toth, Photographer
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 1:42 PM on 02.03.09 |
->> I think it's great the kid made it...
I would agree there are some basic safety issues with children on the sidelines... but the notion of sideline access should not be a contest prize...Geez... isn't that how the Steelers and Cardinals got there?
-- Mike |
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John Pavoncello, Photographer
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 02.03.09 |
->> Boy, there are thousands of kids across the country that are glad that Chuck Liddy and some others here don't have a lawn care business, they'd be getting hell for being paid $10 to mow their lawn!
Get a grip folks. Seriously, if this kid's $1 web site is hurting your business, find a new job. Kudos to the kid, I personally am happy to see a young teenager doing something productive instead of sitting on his ass playing Halo3 or planning the next school shooting. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 6:43 PM on 02.03.09 |
| ->> well, john since you're a paid staffer I guess it doesn't matter much to you...that is until you become one of the people out there fighting for a piece of the freelance pie....then I guess we'll see who cares if someone's selling prints, no matter how bad they are for $1 a piece. that was all I was saying...as I said I probably overreacted somewhat because of the bad news we received at the paper that afternoon. I also, as some others did, read the post wrong and he wasn't shooting the superbowl....my bad for that too. |
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Richard Wolowicz, Photographer
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Brossard | QC | Canada | Posted: 9:13 PM on 02.03.09 |
| ->> I told the kid in my neighborhood ... "No grasscutters.com bucket hat, you can't cut my lawn ... sorry" He gave me a weird look ... I have standards. |
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Jason Frizzelle, Photographer
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Wilmington | NC | USA | Posted: 9:44 PM on 02.03.09 |
->> I'm gonna go out on a limb by saying that John's "informatives" might have come from Chuck's Selena-like "fan club."
Jason |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa Bay Area | FL | USA | Posted: 9:49 PM on 02.03.09 |
->> Chuck,
I've respected you, and your work for years, but I don't understand why you think John's opinion is void simply because he's a staffer. I'm a staffer for a daily (for now anyway), I still care about the business as a whole and I feel that I'm entitled to an opinion. I fully understand and appreciate the fact that when freelancers are underpaid or undercutting each other then that hurts ALL of us: staffers, stringers and freelancers alike. But John's point was valid; the kid is 13 years old. I think John's right, if ANY of us are being harmed by a 13 year-old kid's $1.00 prints then we need to take a serious look at our business plan or the quality of our work.
You're a well-respected and highly-experienced photojournalist with a great resume and an impressive portfolio. Did this kid's trip to Tampa or his 4 hours with Peter really affect you in any way?
I, for one, hope that this kid never reads this thread. And kid, if you do end up Googling your name and happen upon this thread, well, just know that some of us, most of us, are proud of what you're doing. You can come shoot with me any time and I'd be honored to buy one of your $1.00 prints. |
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Preston Mack, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 10:27 PM on 02.03.09 |
| ->> The sad truth is that a 13 year old kid can shoot "good enough" photos to satisfy clients. |
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Sheen Yen, Photographer
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West Lafayette | IN | USA | Posted: 10:34 PM on 02.03.09 |
| ->> Why is that sad? The kid has some killer material and it's great to have such talent coming out of our youth. If he keeps it up he will continue to do very well. |
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John Pavoncello, Photographer
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 10:02 AM on 02.04.09 |
->> ->> The sad truth is that a 13 year old kid can shoot "good enough" photos to satisfy clients.
The real truth is that with the advances in auto-focus cameras and digital photographers in the past 20 years, there are a TON of "professionals" out there who's businesses are due to technology not skill. If they actually had to set their camera's exposure correctly and focus, and didn't have Photo Shop to correct all their mistakes later, there would be a lot less competition.
And before I get flamed, please note, I'm not making any personal attacks on members here, just a general observation about our business.
And my being a paid staffer doesn't make a difference in my opinion on this kid's business. If I were to look at this business the way some freelancers do (and I still do shoot freelance work, BTW), I should be blaming the camera manufactures for making it easy to shoot pictures and the colleges for pumping out young PhotoJ's that are clogging up the staff positions and taking them away from crusty old-timers like me! :) |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:38 AM on 02.04.09 |
->> john, well said. it's either nikon or canon's fault! but since everyone always says canon's can't focus I think the
problem lies squarely in nikon's lap. 8) |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 10:22 PM on 02.04.09 |
->> Cameras don't make pictures, PHOTOGRAPHERS make pictures.
Auto focus, auto exposure, auto etc. doesn't mean squat if there isn't a photographer driving the machine.
What all the auto etc does do is raise the bar higher for all.
--Steve |
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John Pavoncello, Photographer
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York | PA | USA | Posted: 3:15 PM on 02.05.09 |
->> ->> Cameras don't make pictures, PHOTOGRAPHERS make pictures.
Auto focus, auto exposure, auto etc. doesn't mean squat if there isn't a photographer driving the machine.
What all the auto etc does do is raise the bar higher for all.
You keep telling yourself that while "photographers" who don't know an F-stop from a bus stop keep under cutting and taking business away from the pros. I'd bet your career that If I gave an old Nikon F2, a roll of film, and a manual focus 400 2.8 to 50% of the "photographers" out there, they couldn't get the film loaded correctly let alone shoot one sharp action shot of a football game (You notice I said your career, not mine since I'm not the betting type:) ) |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:30 PM on 02.05.09 |
->> FIFTY PERCENT???? FIFTY????? How about 80%? 85 to 90 if you want acceptable results of a pro level sport moving at full speed.
Try just asking what an F2 is. I'll bet you HIS career that the majority of shooters |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:52 PM on 02.05.09 |
->> I know what an F-stop is.
It's the bus stop I get dropped off at to go to my newsroom. It's right after the E-stop.
Now, what's an exposure...? |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 4:12 PM on 02.05.09 |
->> Nic,
Britney or Paris getting out of a car. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central | NJ | USA | Posted: 4:20 PM on 02.05.09 |
| ->> Twwwtthtpp®! |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 4:23 PM on 02.05.09 |
->> Quote... "The real truth is that with the advances in auto-focus cameras and digital photographers in the past 20 years, there are a TON of "professionals" out there who's businesses are due to technology not skill. If they actually had to set their camera's exposure correctly and focus, and didn't have Photo Shop to correct all their mistakes later, there would be a lot less competition."
Really?
I've been doing this longer than most... and when I started shooting football with my Pentax Spotmatic F in 1968... the " old timers "told me... that it's easy to shoot football with a 35mm... longer lens ( I had a 135 )... and 36 exposures per roll... hell they shot with a 4x5 and 2 holders ( 4 images )
So what if today's shooters can't load film into a 35... they don't need to any more than I needed to shoot with a Speed Graphic
Each generation laments the same tune.... get over it
A rising tide lifts all ships.... beginners are better today...so what... the last time I looked Biever is still kicking everyones ass.
-- Mike |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central | NJ | USA | Posted: 4:47 PM on 02.05.09 |
| ->> Double-Twwwtthtpp®!! |
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