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Final Cut Studio vs. Final Cut Express vs. iMovie
Vincent Johnson, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 5:12 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> Here's the deal.
I just picked up a Sony HVR-A1U about 2 months ago (Thank you for your suggestions on this board) and I'm getting ready to start doing some small short documentaries to get my feet wet.
I have iMovie (not the current version) and can pretty much tell that I'm limited in what I can do, plus as much as I love Apple, I hate that G' Damn logo when I burn a DVD. iMovie is working out great for photo slide shows, but I'm thinking about pony'ing up and getting Final Cut Studio 2 or Express.
So here's the question, since I'm throwing down $1500 to buy an Adobe Suite without Premiere, is it going to make a huge difference for me if I go from iMovie to Final Cut Express?
Is Express a good launching point for Studio? Seeing as how I might not be doing any serious professional video for another year. I'd prefer not to get too far in at first if Express will get me by.
Once again I look forward to your shared knowledge.
Cheers,
Vincent Johnson |
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Troy Harvey, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ventura | CA | United States | Posted: 5:36 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> It might be smarter to start with Final Cut Express. It's a great program, and depending on how serious you become about video you can upgrade later to Final Cut Pro.
But...I would definitely get away from iMovie!!! |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> Vincent,
Express (version 4 does HD) does most of what you want and many folks use it for their daily production on deadline.
Pro has some added features that are great and can add to what you are doing, but for getting into video editing and putting out pieces and home movies Express does it very well. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 6:18 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> Vincent,
I have been told by many people that Final Cut Express will do the job very well, as George said. I just ordered my copy. Hope my non techy head will figure it out |
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Scott Varley, Photographer
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Torrance | CA | USA | Posted: 6:26 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> FCE is very full featured. But, go to the bookstore and buy a good book that teaches you the program through lessons and a DVD. I bought FCE in October and a good training book (http://tinyurl.com/93eutb)
iMovie is very basic compared to FCE. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 6:41 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> Scott,
I was just eyeing that book on Amazon.. Thanks for the good word on it |
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Adam Bettcher, Photographer
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Bloomington | MN | USA | Posted: 6:45 PM on 12.31.08 |
| ->> If you set preferences in both iMovie and iDVD, you can get rid of the apple logo... Just an observation. I would also recommend FCE. |
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Robert Caplin, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 6:56 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> I'm just starting with video myself, in fact, today I just shot a music video for my little sister which I'll be likely spending a million years editing.
Anyhow, my brother recommended to me the one-on-one training at Apple Stores that's offered as Apple ProCare. I believe SS's own Joshua Brown is an official "genius" that gives training at the Apple 5th Avenue store in NYC.
The program, which is $99/year, gives you up to one 1-hour training session per week during the year. That's one heck of a deal if you go once a week.
Lots of other goodies with the membership too:
http://www.themaclawyer.com/2006/09/articles/offline-resources/apples-proca.../
I used the service last year for the fast track service for repairs and advanced reservations at the Genius Bar. I think I need to renew my membership...this time I think I'll take advantage of the training sessions in Final Cut.
Obviously you need to live close to an Apple Store to really take advantage....but food for thought.
Robert |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 7:06 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> nice offer, Robert. I'll have to look into that
Can't wait to see your video
Does the 5D Mark2 use CF cards or SD (the Nikon D90 uses the SD)
Happy New Year-we will have to celebrate our birthday together this year so I can give you the present I promised (that you don't even remember asking for) |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 7:08 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> PS-do you have to buy the MAC from Apple to get this with the Apple Pro care?:
Complete Setup :: When you buy a Mac, Apple will transfer all your existing files to your new computer, organize everything into convenient folders, and set up your system and your new software. All you have to do is turn it on, and you're ready to go. |
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Danny Gawlowski, Photographer
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Bellingham | WA | USA | Posted: 7:34 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> If you want to do any sort of serious project, stay away from iMovie. If you really want to use iMovie, you can, but it's going to cost you a lot in time and headaches. As for the Apple logo, go through the preferences and uncheck the appropriate box. The logo will then disappear.
The controls in FCE are very similar to those in FCP. FCE lacks some of the features, such as logging and capturing multiple clips at the same time, but the general look and feel is the same. FCE will take care of most of your needs, but the FCP Studio does have some pretty amazing bells and whistles. Once you use them, it's hard to go back.
Both FCE and FCP can be a bit intimidating when you first open them. Don't panic. You just need to jump in and get comfortable. Similar to Photoshop, there's multiple ways to accomplish just about any task. Play around, read up and have fun. If you ever get stuck, feel free to send me an email. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 7:47 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> FYI--
Final Cut Express is intended for an Intel based processor, it does not play well on a G4 Mac.
Final Cut Pro will work on a G4 Mac.
The above applies specifically to AVCHD files such as from a Canon HG-10, I don't know if it applies to the files from a 5D II. When I was testing a pre-prod 5D II, I opened the files directly in Quick Time, which was an excellent way to export a still frame grab from a video clip.
I have FCE on a pair of intel Macs and it does everything I would want it to do for web based video production.
The 5D II used CF cards.
--Steve |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 8:27 PM on 12.31.08 |
->> I wouldn't consider using iMovie for anything more than just toying around.
You mention an interest in doing documentary type projects. Even with short documentaries with a ten minute target final length, it wouldn't be uncommon (at least for me) to come into the edit with over ten hours of raw footage. The ability to log and batch capture with these long form projects is essential.
Logging in Final Cut Pro is where you go through your tapes and create offline clips (a placeholder, if you will) of only the footage that you're interested in capturing to the computer. Once you've logged everything, you can tell the computer to go and capture only the footage you've logged from your tapes. Final Cut Pro will drive your camera or tape deck via firewire and locate your clips via the timecoe on the tape. (Obviously being mindful of having a continuous timecode track on your source tapes with no breaks is essential for this to work efficiently, but that's for another thread.)
Another thing that, from what I can tell, Express does not offer is OfflineRT editing. This is the ability to capture hours of footage at a much lower resolution in order to have lots of footage at your disposal in the edit with limited use of hard drive space.
Several independent films I've edited have had over 40 hours of raw tape going into the edit. OfflineRT allows me to capture several takes of several angles from each scene (from upwards of 100 scenes) to pick and choose from as I edit, using no more than 100 gigs of hard drive space. The key this process is, while the video looks terrible, the timecode information from the tapes remains intact and used by the software to remember where on the tapes you got your shots.
Once I and the director are happy with the cut, Final Cut Pro has the ability to create a new "Online" sequence of *only* the footage I used in the final product. Just like the logging and capturing stage, Final Cut can batch capture *only* that footage once again at the final, camera resolution.
I'm always of the school that one should purchase equipment that will grow with them, and Final Cut Pro will certainly do that. The version of Final Cut and my G5 that I still use daily are knocking on five years old, and I've made my money back several times over. |
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Rodrigo Pena, Photographer
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Palm Desert | CA | USA | Posted: 12:56 AM on 01.01.09 |
| ->> Vincent I just thought I should mention that iMovie is very different from Final Cut Express or Pro. FCE and FCP are similar. If I were to rank iMovie on a scale of 1-10 and I were to give iMovie a "1," I would give FCE and "8" or "9" and FCP a "10." I was very comfortable with iMovie, but it took me a good six months to learn FCE. Keep in mind that I was trying to use the manual that came with the program and also the DVD tutorial. Both are inadequate in my humble opinion. When I took a multimedia course from Sports Shooter, I finally learned enough to jump in and get started. Scott's suggestion, although I haven't read the book, is probably a good one. Another suggestion is Lynda.com. For $25/month you can get online tutorials. Before you sign up, check out the free tutorials and see for yourself if that's something that would help you. I like FCE very much and have made two long videos so far. The quality is better through FCE compared to iMovie in my opinion. One last thing, my copy of FCE came with LiveType and SoundTrack programs. Both programs make the videos much better. The animated type from LiveType really takes the video to a higher level of sophistication. |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 6:21 AM on 01.01.09 |
->> "The animated type from LiveType really takes the video to a higher level of sophistication."
... just don't over-do it. The Livetype canned effects scream LIVETYPE!!!! and are frequently over-used. |
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Mark Sutton, Photographer
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Herndon | VA | USA | Posted: 7:48 AM on 01.01.09 |
| ->> I just started using IMovie which I always thought sucked, but I thought about buying FCE. Question for the FCE users. Can you take a clip like a play to the basket and freeze the clip or do slow motion with it? Thanks! |
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Rodrigo Pena, Photographer
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Palm Desert | CA | USA | Posted: 10:07 AM on 01.01.09 |
| ->> Mark, the answer to your question is yes, FCE does allow you to use slow motion and then freeze a frame. In iMovie you can use slow motion too, but you don't have the control that you do with FCE. FCE and FCP use "key frames" that allow you to introduce effects at precise frames. You can also use FCP to create your own Ken Burns effect. Recently I used FCE to show two screens on the viewer at once. In other words, I ran my credits in one frame and ran outtakes in another at the end of my video. You can adjust the size of each frame or use more than two frames. |
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Rodrigo Pena, Photographer
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Palm Desert | CA | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 01.01.09 |
->> Corey that was a good comparison of both programs. The one that caught my eye was:
"Color Correction
In Final Cut Express you can not correct color using the three way color corrector. You can also not adjust the luminance or chrominance of your video or thin or soften your colors using Final Cut pro Express."
There are workarounds. I have color corrected my kid's graduation video. I could not use key framing, but I just kit "apple + T" to select my in and out points. Then I used the color corrector that is supplied with FCE. Of course my version of FCE is a tad older and perhaps newer versions have a different way of doing things. |
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Robert Caplin, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:05 AM on 01.01.09 |
->> I've been informed the Apple program I was speaking about is now called only 'One to One' now and you can get the info here: http://www.apple.com/retail/onetoone/
You can learn Final Cut, Color, Motion, Aperture, Logic, and more. |
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
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Dublin | OH | USA | Posted: 11:59 AM on 01.01.09 |
->> http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/index.asp
You get the info and the training videos for a monthly fee online. I haven't tried it online yet, but I have used a couple of their books with good results. |
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Vincent Johnson, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 01.01.09 |
->> Everybody who replied, it's only the 1st of the year but this info you gave me has already paid for my membership in my opinion.
Thanks and keep it coming if somebody missed a point.
I was already looking at Lynda.com for learning Flash, if FCE is in there too, it's a done deal.
Cheers,
Vincent |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 12:50 PM on 01.01.09 |
->> People love to hate on iMovie, and I have my moments, but I also have to say that it has it definitely has its place. My suspicion is that many people reading this thread and are professional photographers just trying to cut video for basic weddings, photojournalism, travel vids, sports, etc. Many people don't want to mess with the amazing and powerful features of Final Cut Studio. There are definitely times that I just want to drop some basic clips into place, drop some music into the background, and put cross fades between everything...without all the overhead. Final Cut, Motion, Color, Compressor, Soundtrack are great and you can create pro stuff with it, but it can definitely be overwhelming for a lot of people starting out, and in some cases overkill.
Many people also don't realize you can send your project from iMovie 08 into Final Cut XML. And roundtrip your movie into Garageband for fine tuned audio control. The only thing I legitimately miss is slo-mo. One of the biggest improvements in iMovie 08 was how it handles still photos.
All I can say is that I had a little project I shot with my 5D Mark II over the holiday. I didn't have the Studio on my machine because I had recently done a clean install. Over an hour (20GB) of h.264 video to go through. I dumped it into iMovie, scanned through the footage, dropped the clips that I liked into the timeline, etc, etc, etc. The whole thing (a small short documentary btw) was done in less than an hour at the airport. I was able to fine tune my clip lengths, duck audio up and down as needed, trim the music to where I wanted, add simple titles that didn't distract, bump the exposure and contrast of the clips where needed, and I can bring it into Final Cut if/when I really want to play around with it.
http://www.vimeo.com/2648294
Vincent, I do think Final Cut Express could be a good starting point for you, but since you are recording to tape, log and capture in FCP will save you a LOT of time as others have pointed out. Most of the reason I was able to get started in iMovie so quickly is that the Mark II doesn't record to tape. And if you are near the North Michigan Ave Apple store, there are some folks that can show you a couple tricks for 99 bucks a year :) |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 01.01.09 |
| ->> Nicely done Josh. I had considered canceling the 5D MkII I have on order. Think again! I like the music as well. |
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Courtney Adams, Photographer
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Burlington | Vermont | United States | Posted: 3:15 PM on 01.01.09 |
| ->> I use Final Cut Pro HD with for my video's. It is an amazing program and you can do what ever you want with the video that you have shot. I absolutely love it, but it is a costly investment for sure. It is all about how serious you are looking to get with you videos. |
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Doug Thompson, Photographer
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Floyd | VA | | Posted: 8:35 PM on 01.01.09 |
->> Vincent:
For the A1U, Final Cut is the way to go. The Full Boat (FCP Studio 2) or FCE. Final Cut Express is intended for those shooting primarily DV or HDV while FCP can handle many more formats, cameras and editing decks.If you intend to market your documentaries, you may need the expanded output capabilities of FCP.
The Mac you are using is also a consideration. FCE will work fine on a G5 as long as you are not trying to import and edit ADVHD from the newer cameras or H.264 clips from a Canon 5D MKII. It should handle the clips from the A1U without any problems. |
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Doug Thompson, Photographer
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Floyd | VA | | Posted: 8:39 PM on 01.01.09 |
->> Debra asks: Does the 5D Mark2 use CF cards or SD (the Nikon D90 uses the SD)?
The 5DII uses CF cards. Lexar UMDA 300x cards work well in mine. |
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Patrick Murphy-Racey, Photographer
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Powell | TN | USA | Posted: 1:54 AM on 01.02.09 |
->> I spent around $7K on a used video setup about two years ago and began trying to get some video work here in town. I ended up getting some and it paid well. I've been sing iMovie 08 for the last year and I love it. iMovie 6.0 is a free download from Apple's site right now and allows for more effects and stuff... but iMovie 08 is a great, though limited sortware app. It's super fast to put something together quickly. I have a copy of FCE that I just bought and will start learning it. I know I'll end up with FCP, but for now, $125 is a deal for the added benefits for type, better control, and tons of audio extras that I'm now missing. iMovie 08 is a powerful application that can get you up and editing in under an hour, without reading books or watching DVD's... I plan to continue to use it even as I move towards learning FCE.
Ever see a copy of Adobe Elements??? It's pretty cool, all the stuff it will do. Most of us could survive with it for a few days at least... Photoshop is still King, but Elements can get some work done for sure... Same holds true with this iMovie vs. FC debate. If you have unlimited budget and time, just get FCP and go for it. If you're learning this as you work full time shooting stills (as I assume most of us are), iMovie will get your fear of video knocked down to nothing. At the end of the day, good images and storytelling are always going to be more important than what software you edit in... .02 |
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Doug Thompson, Photographer
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Floyd | VA | | Posted: 8:39 AM on 01.02.09 |
->> Patrick:
I tried out a free copy of Elements that came with a Canon Rebel that I bought for my wife a couple of years ago. It's a nice enough package but lacked the features I was used to using in Photoshop. It depends on your needs. I produce a lot of photos for gallery exhibition and do print work for other photographers in the area so I need the capabilities of PS to produce the best quality prints for myself and others.
I think you have to determine the target audience for your work and then pick the hardware and software package to deliver the product.
Several years ago, Francis Ford Coppola predicted someone would make a feature film with an IMac and IMovie. In 2004, filmmaker Jonathan Caouette did just that. He borrowed his boyfriend's IMac and digitized a collection of Super-8 movies, VHS Tapes, photos and audio tapes and produced Tarnation, a documentary that won awards at the Sundance Film Festival and Cannes.
As Wired reported: "Tarnation may be the first feature-length film edited entirely on iMovie, and it cost $218.32 in videotape and materials. Despite its low budget, the film has already earned a high profile. Both John Cameron Mitchell, the actor and director of Hedwig and the Angry Inch, and independent film maverick Gus Van Sant have signed on as executive producers."
In the end, I guess our best tool is what it always has been: the eye that looks through the viewfinder and composes the image. |
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Mark Sutton, Photographer
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Herndon | VA | USA | Posted: 9:09 AM on 01.02.09 |
->> I recently brought a Canon HG20 to video my daughter’s high school basketball games because most of the colleges that are sending her recruitment questionnaires are also requesting game tapes and not highlight reels. I started using Imovie because it was already on my IMac and MacBook Pro. Since my daughter has an AppleTV setup in her bedroom, I’m able to download the game as soon as we are back from the game. Then create an .a4v file that loads into my Itunes which syncs to her AppleTV in her room and she is able to watch her game as soon as it is ready.
The question that I have is I also have Adobe Premiere and Adobe After Effects loaded on my machine which came with this very expensive suite I purchased a few years ago. The problem I have is Premiere looks for a firewire connection when you want to capture HD footage from your camera and my camera only has a USB connection. I can download the footage from the camera into Imovie and then load the individual clips into Premiere without a problem. The only problem I have is I haven’t a clue how Premiere works, so I went to Barns and Nobles yesterday and purchased the “Classroom in a Book” for Premiere Pro CS3 which I have.
Would it have been easier to just have spent the $200 bucks for Final Cut Express and go from there or continue the path I’m taking and trying to learn Adobe Premiere on my own through this book I just purchased? Premiere is a beast of a program. I know I probably need to take a few classes on it and stop being cheap. Does anybody use Premiere? Thanks! |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 12:10 PM on 01.02.09 |
->> Express is my choice. I've been working with and teaching video for journalists for 4+ years.
As for capturing hours and hours of field-tape. In the beginning, it's probably best to work lean. Keep good shot-sheets so you can log/capture just what you need.
Logging 10 hours (especially if you shot the footage) will only make a difficult first project nearly impossible. |
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James Madelin, Photographer
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AKL | Auckland | New Zealand | Posted: 2:48 PM on 01.02.09 |
->> i was a big fan of imovie until the latest release. with imovie 08, apple have removed a lot of the functionality of earlier imovie versions, that had made those versions really usable for a lot of the work that photographers do.
i notice above joshua mentions "duck audio up and down as needed", which you can't do any more (within a clip, that is) ! absolutely infuriating, particularly when it's the sort of thing that i always thought that apple didn't do; removing functionality to ahem.. 'encourage' you to buy their premium product.
i've now upgraded to final cut express and it's fantastic. you do need to get trained up though; it's easy once you know how but from my experience, five minutes spent with someone who knows what they're doing will enable you to jump in. |
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Patrick Murphy-Racey, Photographer
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Powell | TN | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 01.03.09 |
->> I agree with James... I've had to flip back and forth betwtween iMovie 06 (free download) and 08 that comes on the newer intel based machines. The older version allows slomo and offers filters and effects not found in the newer version. Again, I know I'll end up in FCP someday, and I look forward to learning on the Adobe platform, but until I get express down, iMovie 08 continues to be a workhorse for me.
pm-r |
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James Lee, Photographer
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Vincent | OH | USA | Posted: 3:57 PM on 01.10.09 |
->> I went from iMovie to FCE to FCS2 within about 6 months. I ended up with a high end client and ran into limitations of burning clean DVDs, outputting for pre-production houses and working with the Apple Intermediate Codec that caused me many hours of headache and embarrassment. I had some high motion video that I couldn't get out with iDVD without terrible line twitter, among other problems.
FCS with it's suite of DVD Studio Pro, Compressor, Livetype etc., has made life MUCH easier and greatly improved my confidence in being able to provide professional results on a deadline. I purchased a used copy pretty cheap via the big auction site. The smoothcam filter alone has made the purchase worthwhile.
FCE will certainly get the basic job done, especially outputting for web, but you'll likely eventually want to upgrade to the FCS suite if you start working on more advanced projects from more demanding clients. If you're not careful you'll run up against the same learning curve on deadline that I did. Not fun. |
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