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Yet MORE bad news
Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 9:00 PM on 11.24.08 |
->> "The paper will be a little smaller," Finley said. "I think readers will notice. We will keep the quality of the journalism as high as possible. There will just be less of it in the daily Pilot."
" The Pilot also is expanding ways to generate revenue, Jones said. In October, it began printing front-page advertisements.
"He said he expects the newspaper to raise prices again next year. In September, it increased the price of Sunday editions in boxes from $1.25 to $1.50...."
I have to wonder how many newspaper consumers will continue to put up with paying more and getting less?
Perhaps that can be quantified by the declines in subscriptions and circulation at most, if not all, of the the daily papers in the USA.
It is heartbreaking, just the same.
--Steve |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:01 PM on 11.24.08 |
->> Just making the sale to a new owner sweeter.
A group of family members that owns the bulk of the stock in the parent company is cashing out.
If you are truly dedicated to photography, there is no reason to rethink a photojournalism degree simply because of the way of the world.
A photojournalism degree is just as valuable as any other degree to get into law school. Grin. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:16 PM on 11.24.08 |
->> The high school wants to have a student who is interested in photojournalism job shadow.
I told the reporter who was asking me about it, if they asked on this website, the one word response for 85% of the respondents would be "don't".
I also said it will take far more skills than just making pretty pictures to survive in the future. |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 10:42 PM on 11.24.08 |
->> I don't think encouraging students to quit, or do something else really helps the situation.
I know I've felt it, and probably even said it before - but what I really believe is that if someone truly wants to be a photojournalist. A still photographer. Then they should do it.
They can study it, and they can pursue it. Newspapers are not the only place for this type of photography and still photographs are , and will continue to be, the most powerful, instantaneous way to tell a story, and to record history.
While building up multiple skill-sets (video, sound, etc) will certainly be a plus, I don't think its the end all be all.
In almost every industry, and even in other areas of photography, those that specialize in one thing and excel at it are the ones that succeed. Saying that someone who all their life has wanted to take still images, now needs to do video is a defeatist attitude.
That might be the route someone, 25 years into their career needs to take in order to support their family, but it is not the cynical advice we need to be giving to the students of tomorrow. We can honestly warn them of the difficulty of finding a job doing exactly what they want, and faithfully represent the competition they will face- but telling them to do something else entirely isn't warranted. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern
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Norfolk | VA | United States | Posted: 11:11 PM on 11.24.08 |
| ->> Sad news indeed. I can see the venerable Pilot building as i type this from my apartment. I read Link everyday at lunch too. |
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Dave Einsel, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Houston | TX | United States | Posted: 12:12 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> I agree with Colin. A person has to follow their passion. Very few, if any of us got into journalism to make a ton of money. The market is certainly much tighter but there will always be opportunity for the best and brightest.
Michael is also correct saying, "I also said it will take far more skills than just making pretty pictures to survive in the future." But this has always been true to some degree. We have to be smarter.
Journalism is about telling stories, period. There are a lot of brilliant visual journalists out there that can't light there way out of a paper bag or set up a remote. But, they can tell amazing stories. They do know how to connect with their subjects and share that with their viewers.
Being a journalist is not about making "cool" pictures at the fire. It's about telling the world the story of the people that lost everything they own and what they hope to do about it.
Unique story telling content is what will make or break journalism as we struggle with the slash and burn mentality of the front office.
Hopefully, some publishers will read this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/al-eisele/jim-lehrer-journalism-is_b_145811.h...
Hang in there. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 12:47 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> Colin and Dave - While I agree with your points and really want to believe in the power of passionate young photojournalists, I think students really need do need to think about this. I'll never tell someone not to follow their dreams, but J-schools continue to churn out thousands of energetic students annually into a rapidly-shrinking job market. I think there needs to be a realistic approach to what these kids will face when they try and break into the field. Heck in today's economy often the first thing that goes is the internships, so it's getting harder and harder to get real-world experience.
I'm just being too pessimistic so I'll just stop here. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:03 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> So many people are equating passion to a degree. Since when did ANYONE need a degree to be passionate about something?
That is the point many of us "old farts" are making here. It's not about abandoning the photojournalism dream and becoming a bean counter. It's about obtaining skills in another area to SUPPORT your quest to become a photojournalist.
It's far easier to buy equipment, shoot high school games on the weekends for practice and string for the local weekly when you aren't relying on such work to cover your entire living expense. Much easier to keep a good attitude when you already have a job to pay off that student loan versus trying to make a dent in it with an inconsistent revenue stream and no health insurance.
You have to have balance in your life. Something that a student CAN'T know at this point in their life is the difference between something being a passion and something being a job. A job is something you HAVE to do to survive, a passion is something you'd do for free. When you slam the two together, you end up with a grey middle ground...particularly if money is tight.
Having a passion turn grey is not fun to watch. That's the message here. It has nothing to do with squelching the passion for photojournalism. It has everything to do with trying to preserve it for the long haul...rather than have it fizzle after a couple of short years when money and stability didn't seem all that important. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 9:07 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> I'm afraid I agree with Bradly:
While it's great to follow your dreams, you need to do so with eyes wide open. I think a lot of colleges do a disservice to students by ignoring the notion that the education in our capitalist society is a means to an end not an end in and of itself. It's important for people to understand the reality of the job market they face BEFORE they decide the course they wish to pursue. So while it's a great ideal to follow your dreams you still need to be able to provide for yourself, your family and your retirement. Sadly there were a number of friends from college days who studied subjects they were interested in but there just weren't jobs for those degrees. So, 4-6 years and $80,000 later I had friends working in music stores and pizza shops. Dreams are wonderful but in a capitalist society your dream better be marketable or you'll find yourself loaded with debt, pulling in $25,000 a year and spending 20-30 years just paying off your college much less having a house and saving for retirement. |
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Kevin Sperl, Photographer
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Gilford | nh | USA | Posted: 9:35 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> I really think it is time for all of us to stop complaining about the fact that newspapers are failing.
They are failing because they simply do not know how to adapt to the changing demands of their readership.
I had my fill of that atitude and, rather then wait for them to fail and to bring me down with them, I left and am starting my own magazine to bring to the local readership what they are demanding.
I have just launched my marketing campaign for the magazine and have had almost 80 people respond to my on-line survey in its first 5 days.
We all have control over what we do and no control over what others do. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 9:50 AM on 11.25.08 |
| ->> If some of you chicken littles would have been around a few years ago telling me not to change careers, I would still be a chef at some BS job I hate. I took a cut in pay and moved here and I do not regret it for one minute. Alot of you should look at the glass half full not half empty. If my job is gone tomorrow, I'll get up and find something else. If I have to I'll cook until I do! TOO MUCH NEGATIVE ENERGY! |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 9:58 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> @ David, are you suggesting that photojournalism is no longer a job and that it is a hobby one should finance with another career? I hope not, but if you are I could not more ardently disagree with you. Shooters who do what you are suggesting are not only hurting themselves, but they hurt every working photojournalist out there, and they hurt every future photojournalist who IS trying to make a living.
@ John, I don't think colleges are the ones blowing smoke up student's behinds about the realities of the job market. If anything, high schools, parents, etc.. who constantly tell young students that a college degree is the only way to be successful in the world are the ones to blame.
Don't get me wrong - college is terribly important, but it is not always necessary and there are more options after high school than learning institutions let on.
Just as a personal anecdote , when I was deciding on college back in 2003 I was considering a number of different schools. When it came down to decision making time, one of the largest factors for me was cost. 2 of the schools I wanted to go to would cost me an additional $70k over the 4 years , effectively almost doubling my projected student loan payments to $1,000 a month.
I knew that I was planning on being a photojournalist, and I knew that my chances of getting a job, much less a high paying job at a newspaper were slim. I decided in large part, on the less expensive school because of my career goals and in the end it worked out for me.
Reality can be harsh - I decided to go into photojournalism, because I felt still photography and newspapers were more important than my other love - video and film. HA! I was in for an awakening four years later when I graduated.
But several conversations with mentors, and some words of encouragement from my family and friends told me to follow my heart and stick with my plans after graduation. That would have to mean no newspapers for me. Instead I've focused on doing what I love, shooting still images, and telling stories that way. Because I've been dedicated, and I've worked hard at it, I've been able to support myself doing what I love.
So, I guess the moral of my story is its not impossible.
No need to major in anything else but what you want to major in.
No need to do anything you don't want to do.
Just work hard at what you're passionate about and the money will follow.
Sorry for the book, didn't have time to write a short one. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> Kevin - we aren't complaining about newspapers failing, rather we're talking about a frighteningly-shrinking job market and no slowdown of fresh graduates into the field.
Dave - I do try and be positive and look at the glass as half full, but I'm also realistic and realize that there's about 10,000 people who want to drink the rest of the milk in that glass. Oh, and there's a crack in the bottom of the glass, too, so the milk that everyone wants is gradually leaking out.
Colin - I agree that colleges continue to accept and train kids for jobs that will be scarce when they graduate. I also congratulate you on your success but believe you're the exception rather than the norm. Finally, I don't think discouraging anyone from college, for any degree, is wise in today's economy. Statistics don't lie. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:32 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> "Just work hard at what your passionate about and the money will follow?"
you're kidding right? no really, THAT'S where we all have gone wrong. darn it. I knew myself and all the other photojournalists I know were doing something wrong. we're NOT working hard enough and have NO passion.
that is perhaps the most insulting thing I've ever read on this listserv. I'm curious, you are totally welcome to your opinion but what gives you the right to insinuate the good people in this business aren't doing their jobs? so the photogs at newspapers around the country who lost their jobs aren't working hard enough?
colin, you've mentioned being an adjunct instructor at temple? no wonder you don't want to blame the college side of the equation, that to me means you have a more than vested interest in the academic side since you obviously aren't doing that for free, heh? so I have to agree with john on the disservice schools do by pushing out all these photoj grads
with no hope of job placement. anyone who knows me knows I'm a glass half full kind of guy (and just to be blunt no matter what a lot of folks here on the message board think I'm not mr negativity) that said I am blunt and straight to the point which often irritates people. but your pollyanna statements just are pretty much planted in some kind of fantasy world. in our market there are NO jobs. none. yet the local PJ school will turn out another 30 or so annointed photoj's this spring. the area freelance market is saturated (where do you think all the "downsized" photographers have gone?) and not to put too fine a point on it but did I just read that you were a high school student in 2003? This may come off sounding a little harsh but I would hesitate to take advice from someone with obviously a limited real world experience under their belt. |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> I'm pretty sure he meant that sincerely. Seems to me you take everything as a sinister attempt to undermine what you believe in.
Wake up. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 11:06 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> David, are you suggesting that photojournalism is no longer a job and that it is a hobby one should finance with another career?
No. What I'm saying is you finance the learning part with another career, which is the way a lot of people get started in this type of gig. You do not need to have a PJ degree to do photojournalism...the vast majority of the shooters I know do not have them.
It's a far better investment to spend your college money and time on learning something that is hard to learn outside of the college environment, for all of the reasons many have mentioned already. |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 11:13 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> Hey Chuck, my sincerest apology for insinuating that those that are having difficulty making money in photojournalism are somehow not passionate/talented, etc. I didn't mean that, though I can see how it comes off that way.
I think I was, rather carelessly, using a cliche to illustrate a less significant point that kids should follow their dreams and do what they want.
For the record, I don't teach Photojournalism at Temple. |
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Kevin Sperl, Photographer
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Gilford | nh | USA | Posted: 11:15 AM on 11.25.08 |
->> Bradly:
Newspapers, and other industry types, are failing because of the shrinking, or changing, job market. How ever you want to categorize it.
The economy and delivery of media content is changing and newspapers do not know how to adapt.
I believe that you either wonder why everyone around you can't save you or you go about saving yourself.
I could have stayed at the paper and wondered why they were not able to compete or get out and compete myself.
And, yes, everyday, I wake up to more news about how the job market is shrinking. BUt I resolve to offer something that is not yet there and to allow myself to stand above the "shrinking" market. Will I succeed? Not sure, statistics say I will not. But I am gonna give it my best Shot. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Kevin, that's all well and good, but newspapers aren't failing because of a shrinking and changing job market. Rather, there is a shrinking and changing job market because newspapers are failing.
I'm glad you're succeeding. I agree that people need to go about saving themselves, but I fear that for many of them it means leaving the field. As staff photographers keep getting laid off and new young photojournalists keep entering the field there's just a flood of competition right now. Perhaps that will settle out in the future, but right now it's just bleak. As of today on the NPPA JIB there's just three job postings and three internships. A year ago at any given time there were around 8-10 job listings and upwards of 15 internships.
But, you're right - the most ambitious and creative of this industry will find a way to keep their passion alive, and hopefully make a few bucks doing it. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 12:25 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Newspapers are failing because pure heart owners sold them to corporations that care little about news, and more for quick turnaround on profit, and widening the ratio of what a CEO makes compared to his employees. Since the 60's, CEO ratios have increased 30 fold (or more) and when that ratio shows a shallower return, the product gets diced.
There are ways for papers and photojournalists to make it work, but the power isn't resting in the hands of those who are allowed to do it. Unless, to some degree, one does it on their own. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:53 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Colin - let me ask some rather blunt questions not to pick on you but to bring a dose of reality to the discussion. You said you can support yourself. Do you own a house? At your current income level when do you envision being able to buy one? Do you have a wife and kids? Can you suport a child - if not, when do you envision being able to support children? How much of your income are you putting away for retirement? If you lost your job today, how long could you keep your house/apartment or would you have to move back home? How easily could you get another job and do so before you lost your house/apartment? How about benefits? Can you pay for a hospital stay if needed. If you're out of work from injury for a month, what pays the bills? Can you get benefits for a wife and children?
In short, there is a tremendous difference between being able to eke out a living fresh out of college when $20,000 annual income is enough and you're healthy vs. providing a life for yourself and family, being able to get the long term equity of a house, having benefits to pay for illness or other medical care and saving for retirement. Oh yeah, and the ability to get another job if you lose the current one.
Finally, how long have you been out of school, living on your own and paying ALL your own bills? And how long has all your income been from your photojournalism (vs. other jobs or family)?
Please don't misunderstand - I'm not trying to pick on you. I just want to put into context your statement that if you... "Just work hard at what you're passionate about and the money will follow." |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 1:18 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> John, I wrote to you in an email because I dont think a full response to your questions is really appropriate for the message board.
However, in light of my comment I suppose it is a fair question so I'll answer in detail via email.
That said, when I say I can support myself - I mean it - and everything it entails. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:35 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Colin - I appreciate the email. I'll defend the questions I asked because it goes to your credibility when you say "Just work hard at what you're passionate about and the money will follow." What is being discussed here are life altering decisions for 17 and 18 year old kids. Given your youth I think it's very relevant that if you're going to offer an opinion on how someone should make a life decision you have enough personal experience to base that on. I'm sorry if these questions are offensive. I did not ask for specific financials just putting some context around your situation so we can better judge the voracity of your opinion. For the record, based on your email it sounds like you've got your ducks in a row. If it makes you feel any better I'll gladly answer the same about myself:
Yes I have a house, yes I have a child, I have an ex-wife I help support as well, I have benefits, retirement and enough marketable skills I could obtain a job within a month's time without suffering a loss in quality of life for me or my son. And I've supported myself for 15 years. There - see? I've also been through several downsizings (fortunately survived them all). Not such an intrusive question. Like it or not but only 2 years out of college people will continually challenge you when you about your relevant experience - in photography, in business and in life. Again, sounds like you're doing well but don't be so quick to be offended when people ask you to prove your experience. Should your clients hire you without seeing a portfolio? There's nothing personal in it at all. Sorry if you took it that way. |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 1:39 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> With all due respect, asking someone about their financials - publicly - is not akin to asking about their work experience.
That said, I wasn't offended, I just prefer to keep business and personal finance discussion private. I'm certain I'm not alone on that. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 2:01 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> "Just work hard at what your passionate about and the money will follow?"
Maybe true. Maybe a complete lie. Of course it depends on how you are going to define "the money." You may end up happy and living paycheck to paycheck. There's nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy.
Skill and innate talent are also important. Skills can be learned. Talent is more difficult. I see shots on here all the time I wouldn't have the vision to create. I can go out and 'copy' them and sometimes do.
Hard work and passion only go so far, and if your passion is in a field with no money, your share is going to be a small amount. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 2:01 PM on 11.25.08 |
| ->> Colin - the whole topic here is whether or not a budding young photojournalist can make a career out of it. Unless you're independently wealthy part of that discussion is: can you make enough to own a house, have insurance, save for retirement etc. It absolutely goes to the heart of the discussion as I think those are the basic bare-bones necessities most people think of by earning a living. Above that point it becomes a quality of life issue. It's the difference between reality and theory. Given I don't know you at all these are simple baseline questions I would ask of anyone 2 years out of college giving career advice that I wouldn't need to ask someone 20 years out. |
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Alicia Wagner Calzada, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 2:02 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Forget the PJ degree. Get a business degree.
Take photojournalism electives, work on the school newspaper, get internships and take pictures outside the classroom. That is where you will learn the most anyway. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:05 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> A degree is an important asset for anyone to possess. But why would you get a photojournalism degree knowing jobs are dwindling dramatically everyday? I mean, do you want your first job out of school to be at the unemployment office, standing in line with dozens of other people, most with more experience in the job market than you?
There isn't a thing wrong with having dreams, aspirations and passion. The reality is you have to eat, take care of your family if you have one and look ahead. Get your degree in something that's going to be useful with a wider range of opportunities. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 2:09 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> ""Just work hard at what your passionate about and the money will follow?"
Maybe true. Maybe a complete lie. Of course it depends on how you are going to define "the money." You may end up happy and living paycheck to paycheck. There's nothing wrong with that if it makes you happy."
True, but it usually takes years and even decades for the money to catch up with the most passionate. Passion usually entail making bad decisions and taking risks that make for powerful lessons, all which eventually will lead one to great success. You also need a few other things like timing, tenacity and opportunty, three ingredients that equal what most people refer to as 'LUCK'. |
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Jean Finley, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Iowa City | IA | USA | Posted: 2:18 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> If you must spend so much time pointing your fingers at the people/organizations/industries you think are doing you wrong, what are you using to take photos? Your toes?
Get smarter. Get better. Get moving. Get out of your head.
Be willing to grow. Be willing to flex. Be willing to learn.
Open your eyes to the opportunities that are being created. |
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Jeffrey Furticella, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | US | Posted: 3:59 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Every day a new thread pops up telling young photographers to drop out of their photo classes, put down their cameras, and start stocking up on dry canned goods for when the sky comes down.
Newspapers are far from being the only industry in dire straits at this point in the economy. Perhaps there is an automaker.com or a financialinvestor.com where auto manufacturers and accountants sit around all day telling young people to drop out of technical programs and business school?
Chuck makes a great point in reference to the remark "Just work hard at what your passionate about and the money will follow?" I've had a number of close friends in journalism, photography and otherwise, that are incredibly talented, passionate people, that have lost their jobs. To that end, there are dozens of stories of countless gifted, phenomenal photographers, that can shoot video, have vision, generate projects, win glamorous awards, can record audio, on and on and on, and they now find themselves out of their job through no measure of their own. But isn't that the point? Layoffs are something that we can't control. Newspapers are going to downsize, and cutback, and layoff, and buyout, wash, rinse, and repeat.
My thought is, why worry? No matter the skill set or degree of passion, dollars and cents don't discriminate, anyone can get laid off. And I get it, people need to make money, we need to support ourselves, we need to support our families, we need to support our lifestyles. But if you're so worried and so dejected about the industry, why show up to work tomorrow? Why not go find a "safer" job?
I've always been of the mind that it's just not worth your mental health to spend every ounce of energy worrying about things you can't control. But you can control what kind of work you're producing. Produce the best type of work that you can, using whatever medium appeals most to you. Shoot pictures, record audio, produce videos, do what you love. Isn't that why people become photographers anyway? To do what they love? Things don't always work out in the end, the good guy doesn't always finish first, and having all the passion in the world won't save your job. But isn't it worth having a body of work that you're proud of to take that risk?
Students, I say pursue your passions. Look to other places than newspapers. I've maintained a firm belief that a person should not be steered away from their passion for any reason, as long as they're educated about the risk they're taking. Some students will find they can't make it in the industry, some will find they don't belong in it, and at the end of the day there will be those that find their place and will contribute in the best way they can.
Colleges are pumping out photographers in the same way that other college departments are pumping out graduates in other struggling industries. I don't think any student is coming into the job market thinking they're going to have offers thrown at them. I just know that I'd certainly rather see someone make an effort at following whatever dream they have then say, "Well things aren't looking so hot, maybe I'll save it for another lifetime."
Everyone gets so hot about the struggles of newspapers equating to the end of photojournalism. There are so many other outlets for photography anymore, newspapers shouldn't be looked at as an absolute. Look for mentors, look to assist, look for a niche, do your research, find the people that can help you get where you're going, maybe you'll get there and you can help someone else at some point. The industry is in lousy shape, and I'm guessing it's going to get worse before it gets better, but in the meantime why not go do some work for yourself that you can be proud of? Or you could just sit around all day with aluminum foil over your head wondering when the axe is coming down. Me personally? I'd rather save that for another lifetime.
- furt |
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Ron Erdrich, Photographer
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Abilene | TX | USA | Posted: 7:57 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> If I were a student about to graduate from college I might consider staying on for grad school or a second degree in something else. If that weren't an option, I'd just bite the bullet and try to get as many internships as possible no matter where they were and keep doing that until the economy turned around.
If I were 17 or 18 years-old right now and contemplating a career in photojournalism I'd probably go ahead and do it. Because by the time I graduated the industry and the world will have completely changed.
In this song, the lyrics seem to change but the tune always stays the same; J-schools are pumping too many students out, the industry is in a spiral, not enough jobs to go around, etc., etc., ad nauseam. These arguments have been going on for at least the 13 years since I began paying attention to them.
If memory serves, my j-school seemed to only graduate about 8 photo students during my commencement, figure that was the average and you've got barely 25 per year. Most of the other grads were in broadcast or advertising.
Times are hard, that's for sure. But I don't worry for the young photographers of tomorrow, they'll learn to adapt or do something else like a lot of other photographers I've known over the years. The one bit of advice that I heard from my high school photo teacher in 1982 still rings true today. When I told him I wanted to be a photojournalist, he said it was a cool job but that I'll have to pay my dues. I'm still paying them but I don't mind, it's what I love doing and I'm getting along well enough. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 8:15 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> OK, let me say this - I agree with pursuing your dreams as long as it's an informed decision. To that end I would advise ANYONE entering a post-HS education of any type to ask for the following information from the entity educating them:
1. How many people graduated from their program in each of the last 5 years?
2. How many of those people were employed immediately out of the program in the career of choice?
3. What about a year after completion?
4. What were the average starting salaries in each of the last 5 years for those graduates?
5. What is the average salary of graduates from the program 5 and 10 years after graduation?
If a student doesn't ask those kinds of questions I don't feel bad at all when they can't find a job. If a program doesn't have that kind of data then I would suggest it's not a program that is preparing you for a job and is therefore a poor investment of your money. Armed with that type of information, by all means decide if you want to pursue that path. At least then it's an informed decision. Or you can be like my friend who graduated suma cum laude with a bachelor's in geology after spending $80,000 on college back in the early 90s. Only to find out there are no jobs for people with a bachelor's in geology. He needed advanced degrees. Only when applying to grad schools he found out his undergrad course work didn't include the necessary course work to be admitted into graduate programs. So he tried to work and go back to school but the debt finally got the better of him and he dropped out. He's the one that spent 15 years working in a music store because he pursued an education in something for which there was no market. |
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Peter Hoffman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Athens/ Naperville | OH/IL | US | Posted: 9:31 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> I seriously can't believe I just renewed my membership.
Colleges offer pj programs because students want to learn pj, just like so many other degrees that have no immediate value after college. Who are they to tell students what they want to learn is useless or futile? Heck, some people from PJ programs have pushed this whole 'new media' a lot farther than most newspapers I see. So in a way, they are ahead of the curve.
Unless they have lived in a cave for the past few years, I don't think anyone has a bright view of the pj future, and I don't think any sane university (I know the ones I've been at haven't) will tell you anything other than the truth. Everyday in grad school I hear about the demise of newspapers. What's the point in bringing it up every five minutes? Like others have said, there are other outlets, and the people that want to bad enough will land on their feet. Schools are a place to foster good competition, good work, for students to be inspired. Where some people get the idea that these schools are misleading their students into thinking there are a lot of job opportunities is beyond me.
We are not some special people in a worse state than so many other industries, why is it that every time I get online people are just crying for themselves? As it is for people in careers across the board, things will work out if you are smart, innovative, and work hard enough.
Most importantly though, does money truly have an effect on happiness? These threads certainly seem to stress that point indirectly. Stop complaining, go do something new and creative. Go learn PJ if you want to and then pursue it, or don't if you don't want to. If you go to college with the mindset that college = job, that's backwards. College = learning. Do with that what you will. And if it doesn't work out, go to your family, your friends and spend time with them, and create work for yourself. That's where happiness comes from.
If you always listen to people who tell you you can't, you won't, there's no chance, you shouldn't, whatever, you're screwed from the get-go. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:05 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> "I seriously can't believe I just renewed my membership"
peter, it's sad you feel this way. this is probably the best site on the internet for discussion of photojournalism. we might be a totally disfunctional family who fight and disagree but I challenge you to point me to another membership for $25 that includes the resources this site does. not to mention the stimulating and invigorating discussions. I don't take any of these threads and the discourse which come from them as "crying for ourselves" it's more like commiserating and banding together. through knowledge there is strength. but gosh, I'm old and apparently washed up, according to many of you esteemed and knowledgeable recently graduated degree holders. but hang in there. don't give up on sportsshooter.com, it holds a wealth of information and you will learn something everyday if you keep checking in. and remember we are NEVER too old to learn! |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:24 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> Most importantly though, does money truly have an effect on happiness?
I guess you were out the day they taught the answer to that. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 10:30 PM on 11.25.08 |
->> If you having a problem with SportsShooter, don't read anything I write. That simple act will make your life better.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Now, should I shoot at f/1.4 or f/2.0? |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:17 AM on 11.26.08 |
| ->> but money can't buy you love...except in certain situations..... |
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David Bailey, Photographer
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Flower Mound | TX | USA | Posted: 10:49 PM on 11.27.08 |
| ->> I can't wait for them to line up for a government bailout! |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 11:36 PM on 11.27.08 |
->> "I seriously can't believe I just renewed my membership"
This coming from a "student-intern" addressing pros with a collective 200+ years in the industry. I can't believe you renewed either.
"If you always listen to people who tell you you can't, you won't, there's no chance, you shouldn't, whatever, you're screwed from the get-go."
Or saved from a whole lotta grief. Over my lifetime, NOT listening has gotten into far more trouble. Just because you listen doesn't mean you have to act. But forewarned is fore-armed. |
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G.M. Andrews, Photographer
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Mobile | AL | USA | Posted: 12:48 AM on 11.28.08 |
->> Peter, while you may have had the best intentions with your post, you lost most of your readership with your opening statement:
"I seriously can't believe I just renewed my membership."
And then this gem takes the cake:
"Everyday in grad school I hear about the demise of newspapers. What's the point in bringing it up every five minutes?"
Way to preach to the masses from the ivory towers, champ. Just how much daily full-time newspaper experience do YOU have? Has your school faced buyouts yet?
If you send me your address I'll refund your membership in full, if you just promise not to ever post anything on these pages that crap on these poor, whiney, curmudgeonly grizzled old newspaper shooters, some of whom just happen to have more years experience working at newspapers than you have walking as a biped. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 1:29 AM on 11.28.08 |
| ->> I tell kids wanting to be a photographer one thing . If you can be happy doing anything else do that other thing. If nothing else can bring happiness then take pictures just do not ever think it will bring riches money wise. |
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