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importance of strobes
Scott Thornton, Student/Intern
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towson | md | usa | Posted: 5:41 PM on 11.07.08 |
->> I had a conversation with someone today about the placement of strobes in an arena. They said because of the new, higher iso functionality, strobes are not that important.
That got me wondering, with new cameras allowing photographers to shoot at higher iso's, are strobes really that important anymore? |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 5:45 PM on 11.07.08 |
->> Yes.
:~) |
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Jason Palmer, Photographer
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Wichita Falls | TX | USA | Posted: 6:08 PM on 11.07.08 |
->> I've always been with the understanding that if you can control the light you use to make a photograph, you have many more options and possibilities for the quality of that photo.
CAN you shoot in gyms with the higher cleaner ISOs... yes you can.
But can you control the lights to suit your situation in those instances... no you can't. That's the same reasoning why I sometimes put the SB800 on top. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:30 PM on 11.07.08 |
->> Strobes are important.
You want to master all the tools available. Does a carpenter only use a hammer? |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:04 PM on 11.07.08 |
->> Strobes still have their place in giving a certain look and have some strong creative potential but I'd agree they aren't as important as they used to be.
As a case in point, take the typical NCAA or NBA baseline. How many photographers are using strobes and how many are shooting natural light ? Probably 10 to 1 minimum are using natural light (some by choice, some due to budget and some due to availiblity) and while the strobed SI style shots look great, I sure dont' see how anyone could argue the rest of the photographers stuff isn't print worthy. A good shot is still a good shot if its natural light or its strobed.
A few years ago when ISO1600 was considered nearly unusable, you pretty much had to strobe a high school gym if you wanted decent shots. You just could not shoot natural light no matter how fast of glass you had (at least in my area's gyms) and using on camera flash always looked terrible.
So for years every game I covered I had to drag my lights, get their early enough to set up before warm ups and the fans got there, stay til the end to tear down etc. Thats a huge pain when all your trying to get is two or three photos for the local paper and forget about trying to cover two games in one night.
Contrast that with today with a camera like the Nikon D3 or Canon 1D mkIII that have great high ISO performance. I don't shoot anything strobed anymore except portraits and team photos.
Largely depends on your needs though. If my D3 can give me nice clean files for the local paper and all I have to do is show up and shoot, why go through the trouble of setting up lights when all I'm doing is turning in 2 or 3 shots for a newspaper that are going to run in black and white?
Now if I was covering a 30 team weekend long basketball tournament and doing sales to the parents and wanted to really push some high quality 20x30" posters, then yes strobes could be a great way to go.
I guess to each his or her own, but for me at least, with each new generation of camera that comes out, I find myself setting up lights less and less, so strobes are definatly not as important for me.
Same could be said for fast primes though. Does that mean theres not a use for fast glass like the 35 1.2, 85 1.4, 200 1.8 etc ? Of course not, but I certainly just shoot with a 2.8 zoom in way more situations these days and for something like basketball on the baseline, a 70-200 zoom sure is more versatile than a 85 prime.
So is fast glass less important ? (rhetorical question) |
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Shawn Lynch, Photographer, Assistant
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New York / Boston | NY/MA | USA | Posted: 10:44 AM on 11.08.08 |
->> The reason why you would bring strobe here is so you can differentiate yourself from the next guy. If everyone else is using f/2.8 glass on a D3 at ISO 3200, and the lighting is going to be even and flat (and not all indoor locations lighting is really that even), well then what is going to set you apart?
Also, with the lights, you get more control over how you shoot the images. Do you want side lighting, even lighting all around, back lighting or something else?
On top of that, you can also get more control over your f stop. You don't have to make every image at f/2.8. You have a whole range of other options to use.
I just started a new job recently, and they really pushed this idea on me. You have to make the images better than anything they (the client) can create themselves or else why are they hiring you?
I could, for my job, just run around shooting hand held with an on camera flash, and shooting around 800 ISO, but instead for what I'm doing we carry around about 40 lbs of equipment all day. We have a small portable lumedyne and battery pack, a selection or lenses and filters, a body, back up batteries, a Nikon dedicated flash, double A batteries for that, and a tripod. We shoot around ISO 200, and f/11 for most everything. This gives us the type of image our clients want and need, but can't quite figure out how to create on their own. Their digital point and shoot cameras will never give them the DOF or even lighting that we make. Also, we make sure to nail the white balance so that the photos don't look funky with weird color casts.
It's a lot of extra work. I come home at the end of the day exhausted, but it makes sure that my job is safe and secure and I can continue to live the life that I've made for myself.
That is also just some of the basic stuff we do. There's a lot more technical work that we do, but I don't want to give away all the secrets! |
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John Bowersmith, Photographer
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Lubbock | Tx | USA | Posted: 2:45 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> Ditto a lot of what Shawn said.
In you average high school gym the D3 is great on it's own, but there is just no substitute for the use of strobes.
I personally use two SB-800s most of the time, but whatever is clever.
High school gym lights are generally an afterthought and not much of the budget is put into them. Many times they are all different colors, and they pulse and change colors. So while you're hammering away at 9 FPS you will start to notice that Johnny is pink when he starts his post move and green when he is done with it. So strobes provide good, consistent white balance.
Also the quality of light is generally pretty poor. If you are lucky enough to be in a gym that doesn't have any lights out there will still be a nasty, flat muddieness to natural light photos from high school gyms. Using the strobes gives that "pop" and contrast that makes images sing. This muddieness is a pretty big problem when printing on the tan toilet paper that is newsprint.
My last argument for strobing in high school gyms is speed. Sure you're sitting there thinking, "but you have to set all that crap up. That takes time." In most gyms I can rig my superclamp/SB-800/Pocket Wizard setup in 10 minutes. And that is a maximum time, like say in a place I've never been too. I always show up at least 15 minutes before game time anyway. I can pull the rigs down in 2 minutes. If I'm on deadline, which at a 7 p.m. game I am, I just pull the rig and put it in the trunk and put everything back in it's bag later.
The last BIG speed advantage is editing. Even with the D3 you just can't tone a natural light photo shot in your average high school gym to match a strobed one in any reasonable time period. When I'm editing and toning those strobed images on deadline I love it. I just crop, sharpen cutline and send. Maybe I'll have to do a little burning or dodging, but for the most part I'll have each photo out in about a minute. The photos "pop" off the page and look great. I'd rather spend 10 minutes in prep time to save frustrating hours in post any day. |
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Rich Cruse, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 3:07 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> Try shooting without strobes and see if it works for you. Using natural light creates a look all its own. The Olympics are a great example of what you can do with existing light and the new high ISO cameras. I see the day when strobes are no longer allowed in major arenas.
I prefer to use strobes only when I need to. Keep it real! |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> I think a bit of the original question is being missed. No one is saying there aren't plenty of valid uses for strobes because obviously there are. They are a tool like any other and theres always going to be a time and place for them.
The question though as I read it though is of one if strobe usage is becoming less important as technology advances. Its not trying to argue that natural light is better or as good as strobed shots, but simply, can you shoot things natural light and get "acceptable" results in venues where you couldnt of attempted it a few years ago ?
At least for me thats a definate yes.
However, its worth mentioning that its not due just to camera technology. At least in my area we have seen a ton of new schools built, and new schools, just like new arena's almost always have better lighting than the gym/arena they replaced.
As Rich said, look at the Olympics. Modern venues with great lighting and talented photographers using cutting edge technology produced some stellar shots without strobes.
Again, I'm not saying that they were better for not using strobes but I don't think the lack of strobes made anyone have to pack up and go back to the hotel because they couldnt shoot. |
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John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Gates Mills | OH | USA | Posted: 4:29 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> I thought this might be of interest for this discussion. I am a member of the University Photographers' Association of America, and I saw this is the latest newsletter, describing a talk by SI's Bob Rosato. He was discussing lighting and remotes in arenas, and then the article had this "As a recent convert from the Canon EOS to the Nikon D3 line, Rosato predicted that the days of complex arena lighting may soon be coming to an end." (Although the news of Bob Rosato switching from Canon to Nikon makes me think that the world may soon be coming to an end ;-))
For those who would like to read the piece, you can find it here http://www.upaa.org/archives.php
You need to download the pdf of the Fall 2008 Contact Sheet "War Eagle." (The meeting was held at Auburn University.) The part about Bob Rosato is on page 9. |
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Bernard Cuzzillo, Photographer
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Berkeley | CA | USA | Posted: 10:31 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> You'd no sooner dispense with strobes in an arena that you would in a studio. It's about the quality of the light as much as quantity and intensity. Strobes, being nearly a point source, produce hard shadows that emphasize the look of action, and they give the shooter the ability to dim the background in addition to other beautiful effects like hair lighting. In terms of freezing ability, even the most intense continuous light--which the brightest gyms don't come close to--are nowhere near as bright as strobes which at the peak of their output lay down light that is on the order of 10 times brighter than direct sunlight. (I've measured it.) Plus, the action is frozen in a full frame, not in the moving slit of a mechanical shutter which causes distortion artifacts. See http://www.daveblackphotography.com/ for a primmer on strobes in sports.
It's like pointing out to a fine art painter that the use of rollers and spray guns would get the job done quicker. Are you trying to make a great picture with your photography or identify a suspect? It all depends on the objective and how to achieve it.
The obverse is theater photography. There the lighting has been carefully designed and it would be ridiculous and insulting to introduce extraneous light for the camera. |
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Shawn Lynch, Photographer, Assistant
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New York / Boston | NY/MA | USA | Posted: 10:47 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> Jeff, if we are talking about the Olympics where the lighting is going to be pretty high quality, then no there is no real need to introduce strobes unless you're going for a certain look or effect with the lighting. Also, something like the opening ceremonies of the Olympics would be near impossible to light and as Bernard points out, the lighting has been designed for the event, so you wouldn't want to over power it or change it really because it won't show you what it was truly like to be there.
I was thinking more along the lines of using strobes in high school gyms. Eventually ISO 6400 will be suitable (if it's not already) to make images for the newspaper. But in the end, it's what you are going for. The strobe will freeze the action better than natural light at f/2.8 and 1/500th of a second because the flash duration is usually much shorter than that (I'd fathom a guess of at least 1/1000th of a second for a typical flash, but it all depends on which strobe you're using).
When you have gorgeous natural light, it rarely ever makes sense to overpower it with flash. Take advantage of what nature gives you in that situation. But I rarely found gorgeous lighting at any swim meet, basketball game or volley ball match among other indoor sports that I ever covered for the newspapers.
Like I said, they may have lights spread evenly throughout the gym, but that doesn't mean that all the lights are working or that they are filling the gym with nice, even and consistent lighting. There are usually dead spots, where an older light is about to die, but has yet to be replaced.
If I have the ability to make a better image by setting up strobes, you better believe I am going to do it. You don't rise to the top by taking short cuts. |
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John OHara, Photographer
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Petaluma | Ca | United States | Posted: 11:25 PM on 11.08.08 |
->> Scott,
I am a retired ( took the buyout) SF Chronicle photographer. Now I do select Horse Events. Strobe lighting separates photographers from the "Also Ran" to the individual who goes the extra distance to create a photograph that has impact, emotion or what ever you want to call it to bring a single image to life. If you are trying to just get by, boost your ASA.
Strobes, have many different features that become important. I find that flash duration is a BIG CONSIDERATION.
A high shutter speed of 1/500 or 1/640 of a second, assures no ambient light softens your photo. A SHORT flash duration is very important ! Speedos with 105 heads can get you down to 1/3700 of a second. I use 2401SX packs and 105 heads, usually at the lowest power setting to get the shortest flash duration. Then I set my lights which may be as many as 8 to 10 heads in the arena.( my arenas are BIG) In a few key areas, the lighting has separation and key highlights, and some fill. Other areas are just well exposed.
Think about lights that create sharp images, and images that are lit to show off the competitor.
If your in the business of selling photos to the exhibitor/competitor, EASY is not a word you can use. John O'Hara |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Pittsburg | KS | United States | Posted: 8:21 AM on 11.09.08 |
->> Control of light is the primary reason I strobe indoor sports. In the primary gymnasium I shoot at the local high school, the actual color temp of the available light can vary widely between shots in a short burst at 5 fps. And just shoot myself in the head if I happen to capture a frame right in the middle of the cycle. I've lost so many good images because the light will change color from left to right on the frame.
I typically just set up a couple of Nikon strobes on the upstairs railing of the gym using super clamps and pocket wizards. total setup time about 10 minutes, with most of that being spent on the gym floor putting everything together or carrying them up the stairs. The difference in the quality of images has literally been night and day. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 8:43 AM on 11.09.08 |
->> Andrew
Are you shooting jpeg or RAW? Color balance should be too big of an issue if you shoot RAW. All the RAW processors do a good job fixing color shifts from frame to frame. |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 9:07 AM on 11.09.08 |
| ->> I think he's referring to color shifts --within-- a frame from frame-to-frame. I've seen that sometimes in crappy gym lights that the red or blue cast will cycle from side to side of individual frames within a burst. Get's my goat every time. |
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Sabina Moran, Photographer
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Finksburg | MD | USA | Posted: 4:01 PM on 11.10.08 |
->> Scott,
Who the heck were you talking to?? Were they actually a photographer??
High ISO is a great tool, but it is not THE solution to perfect photos in a poorly lit environment. Now paired with adequate lighting it may very well be the tool to solve some issues, but not all. As the importance of strobes has already been explained better than I could possibly hope to, I'll leave it at that.
But remember this, being able to control the lighting in situations versus just using a high ISO is sometimes what seperates us from just a GWC. |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 8:28 PM on 11.10.08 |
->> Check out a tip sheet by member Thomas Whitte or Witte.
Not sure of the spelling but a good tool on his site about strobes for anyone to check out if you plan on using them
http://www.gophotography.net/tips/lighting.html
Alex |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 8:55 PM on 11.10.08 |
->> Rich stated:"I prefer to use strobes only when I need to. Keep it real!" Was the "keep it real" meant as a closing, like: "Take Care"? Or do you actually think that using strobes is not "Keeping it real?"
And I carry about 100 pounds of "stuff" to an arena shoot. If you need to be better than the competition, and you want to be the lead dog with the best view, then cowboy up and give your clients and customers the best looking images, which is why you use strobes.
High ISO's and fast glass do have their place, but for basketball and volleyball, give me light ot give me death by looking just like everyone else. |
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Samuel Lewis, Photographer
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Miami | FL | USA | Posted: 9:02 PM on 11.10.08 |
->> Scott,
There are trade-offs with everything, and "higher iso functionality" is no exception.
Can make a half-decent image in gyms/arenas that previously had so little light that there was no question you needed strobes? Perhaps. However, the image you can make is not a perfect alternative for images you would make using strobes.
If you're dealing with bad light (at least from my perspective--I know that some places are much, much worse), you're looking at bumping up the ISO, and still shooting a wide-aperture lens wide open at whatever shutter speed you can muster. Do you really think that images created at, say, 1/500 at f/2.8 at ISO 3200 really compare to images created with strobes giving you an effective speed of about 1/1000 at f/5.6 at ISO 200? Spend some time working with strobes, and you'll cringe at the thought of shooting available light in the same venue. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:16 PM on 11.10.08 |
->> Samuel, I don't think anyone is trying to argue a 1/500th f2.8 shot at ISO3200 is anywhere as good as an strobed shot giving you an effective shutter of 1/1000th or faster, f5.6 and ISO200.
What I think people are arguing is that the ISO3200 shot is now looking much much better than it ever did before and as a result, the difference while sometimes still large is decreasing.
For example, I shot NCAA hockey this weekend. Using the D3, I shot 1/1000th, F3.2, ISO1600. Very clean files, nice color and at 1/1000th I could freeze the puck pretty well. No complaints at all regarding the image quality from the client.
Could it of been better had I a Speedotron 105 putting out 2000w/s in each corner of the rafters ? I'm sure it could, but how practical is it for me to go spend $8000+ or so for that setup ? How many hockey games do I do a year for them ? 1 or 2 tops. It would be a horrible business move for me because the clients budget is going to remain the same so I can't go charging them 5x more per game to cover my new expenses, and all that money I spent wouldn't improve my football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, gymnastics, general pj assignments and everything else that makes up a good 90% of my income.
Maybe someone else makes 90% of their income shooting every home basketball or NHL hockey game as a team photographer, for them it could be a really wise idea to invest in lighting their given arena because they'll be doing several games a week and yes, it will really set their images apart.
There is no one size fits all choice though. Strobes can be a great way to go for some and we've seen plenty of examples, but for others, such as myself, strobes are increasingly not required and buying new camera's returns a far better dividen.
People just need to explore their own needs, what their clients are looking for, and what their budget allows and purchase the best tools to fill that roll. |
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Shawn Lynch, Photographer, Assistant
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New York / Boston | NY/MA | USA | Posted: 8:04 PM on 11.11.08 |
->> Jeff,
It is practical practical to use this gear when this is your means of making a living and you are competing against lawyer/hockey mom who has her own D3 or MK III Dad who is also the coach and doesn't care about how good or bad his images are and that him giving away free photos is hurting your business.
If you can only shoot photos as good as they can, why does anybody need or want to pay for your images? But when your images have that special quality that they can't reproduce themselves, now there's a reason to buy your photos, allowing you to continue making your living as a photographer.
To me it is practical. And I'm not spending $8,000 on lighting gear either. You can do it a lot cheaper than that. Even a little off camera flash can help make a difference to the images. |
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