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Trade your gun for a camera in Toronto
Steve Russell, Photographer
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Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 8:25 PM on 09.27.08 |
->> Seems like the Toronto Police have launched a "Pixels for Pistols" program where they will exchange firearms for Nikon Cameras, the Coolpix P60 or the Coolpix S52.
Toronto Star Story on it can be found here,
http://www.thestar.com/article/507406 |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Jefferson | MD | USA | Posted: 8:26 PM on 09.27.08 |
| ->> At least give Canon equipment... |
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Kevin Leas, Photographer, Assistant
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 9:14 PM on 09.27.08 |
->> All right, who's going to submit the best joke about shooting?
I'm looking at you, Walter. |
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Scott Greenlee, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Crescent Springs | KY | United States | Posted: 11:59 PM on 09.27.08 |
| ->> So, when a criminal breaks into your house you can shoot him with a camera and not a gun. Freeze or I'll take your picture. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 2:59 AM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> After having my house broken in to yesterday, I'd rather trade a camera for a .30-06. |
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Alex Surrey, Student/Intern
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Glendale | CA | United States | Posted: 4:06 AM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> Well, being a Canadian boy, but now in Los Angeles, a lot of Canadians live there doors unlocked because it is a very safe country, I don't know if you saw Michael Moore's movie Bowling For Columbine, but it gives some interesting numbers. I can't remember the exact number but here they are ruffly, every year in the USA there are roughly 2000 murders with guns, annually in Canada there are roughly 160 per year, that's right no error there 160! And I think England is at somewhere like 75. But there are more guns in Canada than the U.S. WEIRD!!! |
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Alex Surrey, Student/Intern
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Glendale | CA | United States | Posted: 4:06 AM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> Damn it! I meant leave. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Hudson | NH | USA | Posted: 5:34 AM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> I think a guns for Can(n)ons program would have been more appealing to the misinformed. |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Westminster | MD | USA | Posted: 9:10 AM on 09.28.08 |
->> Stop or I'll shoot.
I'm with you Corey, I'd rather have a cannon. |
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Jack Megaw, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Pittsburgh | PA | America | Posted: 10:32 AM on 09.28.08 |
->> Two thousand murders by guns?
No no no - a long way off - try 11,920 reported gun homicides in 2003, and that is going up. |
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Alex Surrey, Student/Intern
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Glendale | CA | United States | Posted: 2:13 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> Oh yes thanks Jack, I knew it didn't sound right when I was writing it. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 2:55 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> Just FYI. Not all gun homicides are murders. I believe that covers self defense, justifiable homicide, suicide, etc.
Also, I'd be extremely shocked if there are more guns in Canada than the US. Maybe more per capita.
I'd also be skeptical of any numbers cited by Mr Moore. |
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Alex Surrey, Student/Intern
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Glendale | CA | United States | Posted: 2:58 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> Jeff, I also saw it on a TV special on BBC about a year or two ago. |
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Jack Megaw, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Pittsburgh | PA | America | Posted: 3:24 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> Jeff, From the National Department for Health Statistics:
"In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent."
11,920 deaths from people shooting each other...it's a big number, especially compared to the rest of the world.
Makes it kind of hard to deny that America has a gun problem. |
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Myung Chun, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 4:34 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> "So, when a criminal breaks into your house you can shoot him with a camera and not a gun."
But if it's a Mk3, you'd be better off throwing it at the perp. |
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Philip Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Puyallup | WA | USA | Posted: 7:08 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> Of course home invasion robberies are pretty common in merry olde England, not so in the US of A.
I went shooting after dark in Tacoma not long ago, and since I did have $10,000 of camera equipment with me I also had $600 of other shooting equipment under my coat.
Still hitting someone with the MK3 would probably do a lot more damage to someone's skull then it would to the MK3. |
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Nik Habicht, Photographer
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Levittown | PA | USA | Posted: 7:10 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> "In 2003 alone, 30,136 Americans died by gunfire: 16,907 in firearm suicides, 11,920 in firearm homicides, 730 in unintentional shootings, and 232 in firearm deaths of unknown intent."
11,920 deaths from people shooting each other...it's a big number, especially compared to the rest of the world.
Makes it kind of hard to deny that America has a gun problem."
Hmm, since guns don't do anything without people, wouldn't it be more accurate to suggest that America has a people problem? Specifically a violent people problem? Take all of the drug dealer on drug dealer, criminal on criminal, and gang member on gang member violence out of the equation and those numbers will drop quite a bit.
I was raised in Europe. I learned early on in childhood that violence should be reserved for defensive use only --- and then as a last resort, once all other options had either been exhausted or eliminated....
But then what do I know? |
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G.M. Andrews, Photographer
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Mobile | AL | USA | Posted: 7:13 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> "I also saw it on a TV special on BBC about a year or two ago."
Do you believe everything you see on tv?
If you're uncomfortable with law-abiding citizens in the US having access to firearms, then as we say in the South, "Delta is ready when you are."
Buhbye. And take Michael Moore with you |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 7:43 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> There is a new car and truck dealer in Evansville, Ind. that offers buyers a new hunting bow or a new 12 gauge shotgun with any new or used truck purchase. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> Nik is right, take away all the Gang Related Crime, you know the MS-13, the Crips, Bloods, Hells Angels and so on, and you leave a few guys that get Killed because the sneezed, in their married girlfriends closet when her husband Bubba came home!!
Guns don't kill People, Moronic, Idiotic, Evil or nasty People kill People, mostly, Unarmed People, because Armed people shoot back!! |
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Ron Bernardo, Photographer
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Hamilton | ON | Canada | Posted: 8:26 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> I lived in Queens, New York for 12 years and now in Ontario for 10 years...there is a huge difference between the two country, no doubt, but the gap is getting narrower each day. |
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Philip Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Puyallup | WA | USA | Posted: 9:16 PM on 09.28.08 |
->> One of the best things I've seen written on a bathroom wall in Seattle:
"I've been in the US for 3 hours and I haven't seen a gun yet, what's up with that?" |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 11:04 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> Jack, I've never heard of The National Department of Health Statistics. Is that a US Gov dept. (not that they are trustworthy). |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 11:08 PM on 09.28.08 |
| ->> The CDC show 12,324 firearm homicides for 2005. |
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Gary Mills, Photographer
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Culver | IN | USA | Posted: 3:11 PM on 09.29.08 |
->> I'd prefer a 357 because they don't make a 358.
What's the current exchange rate? Will Canada owe a Yank an extra strap or will we need to kick in an extra SD card? |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 09.29.08 |
->> This is a great thing . . . for law abiding gun owners.
Many gun owners buy, sell, trade, and collect weapons in the same way that others might manage a baseball card collection.
Consequently, some gun owners wind up owning (typically through trade) a number of guns that they are not particularly interested in and that do not have a very high value.
There are many compact semi automatic pistols that are available new in the box for less than $100 and on the used market these guns are relatively easy to get for $35 to $50 in a manner that is perfectly legal.
A handgun or assault rifle, according to the article, is worth $400 in the "buy back" program. The rules do not specify the MARKET VALUE of the weapon in question, only the TYPE of weapon in question. Thus, a person could spend $35 on a used semi automatic pistol and score a camera "valued at $400" (although the Nikon p60 can be had for closer to $200).
One of the problems that I have always had with these buy back programs is that they are getting the "wrong" guns off the streets. A law abiding person who is living in fear for their life is not likely to trade their gun for a camera.
Gun dealers or collectors who sometimes make trades will be happy to trade a $35 gun for a $200 to $400 camera. The trouble with this is that most licensed gun dealers and collectors are not running amok shooting at each other or at other innocent bystanders. Some of these "as is" weapons are either non functional or are in such a state of disrepair that it would be silly to try to use them. Thus, the government is not in this example getting a "dangerous semi automatic weapon off the streets" but are getting something more akin to a dusty keepsake out of the attic at the expense of $200 to $400 per unit. This is not good economics.
Criminals who have used their weapons in the commission of crimes or who might use them for this purpose are not going to give up their guns for a camera valued at $200 to $400. A criminal giving up his gun would be like a photojournalist giving up his camera. One needs their "tools of the trade" in order to make a living, after all, and criminals are no exception to this rule.
The real benefit to the "buy back" program is that elected officials will be able to say "we managed to get 127 guns off the street with our program." The trouble is that these guns will not be comming "off the street" but will instead be brought out of storage or purchased legaly from a licensed dealer only minutes before being turned over to the authorities for a substantial profit.
If the program did pay $300 each (even though they claim $400) for enough cameras to exchange for 127 guns, and these weapons were in the $35 value range then the government would have spent $38,100 in order to "buy back" $4,445 worth of weapons.
I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of getting dangerous weapons off the streets and out of the hands of criminals. This needs to be a high priority of government and law enforcement. However, I am ABSOLUTELY against throwing away tax dollars on a program that is doing nothing to address this issue. Paying for the return of unwanted guns is NOT the answer to getting dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people.
I do not have an answer to the problem, but I do know that the "buy back" program is not the solution. |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 4:56 PM on 09.29.08 |
->> Gloria: "65 percent of the people murdered in the last 10 years were killed by hand guns"
Archie Bunker: "would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was pushed outta windows?" |
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David Bailey, Photographer
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Flower Mound | TX | USA | Posted: 5:48 PM on 09.29.08 |
->> We did gun exchanges at a CA Dept. I used to work for and what we found out is that we got guns that were mainly pieces of crap that didn't work and people wanted to get rid of anyway and we paid them to unload their garbage.
Criminals aren't going to give up their guns - PERIOD!
We did have one brain surgeon of a criminal that turned in a gun he used to commit a homicide with (thinking it would be destroyled along with any evidence of his crime) and even though it was supposed to be anonymous an officer remembered who turned it in and it was able to arrest the guy later.
I'll trade of couple of old useless and worthless guns I have for a free camera, even if it is a Canon. :-) |
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Alicia Wagner Calzada, Photographer
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San Antonio | TX | USA | Posted: 6:07 PM on 09.29.08 |
| ->> Considering all of the people who have been arrested for taking pictures recently, I am surprised it is not the other way around. |
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Renay Johnson, Photographer, Assistant
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San Diego | CA | | Posted: 8:27 PM on 09.30.08 |
| ->> Does T.O. all of a sudden have a gun problem?? I spent 9 days in Toronto in 1999 and felt very safe. I went out partied and staggered back to the B&B I was staying at the next morning. The B&B owners explained to me that there were no guns allowed and that very few people had guns. Police and drugdealers were basically the types who had guns. I mean, all of the food places were open at 4am in the morning and I'm talking walk-in. Yes, there was the protective glass, but still the fact that you could get a Subway footlong at 4am in the morning amazed me. |
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Michael Stevens, Photographer
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:31 PM on 10.13.08 |
->> Let's not forget about the one to two millions times a year a firearm is used in self-defense to prevent a crime from happening, or to save a life or property:
http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html
"The National Self-Defense Survey indicated that there were 2.5 million incidents of defensive gun use per year in the U.S. during the 1988-1993 period. This is probably a conservative estimate... The authors concluded that defensive uses of guns are about three to four times as common as criminal uses of guns. The National Self-Defense Survey confirmed the picture of frequent defensive gun use implied by the results of earlier, less sophisticated surveys. "
About Bowling for Columbine:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html |
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Philip Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Puyallup | WA | USA | Posted: 12:55 PM on 10.13.08 |
| ->> A key thing to remember is usually a defensive use of gun doesn't require anything more then showing it. |
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Michael Stevens, Photographer
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 10.13.08 |
| ->> Exactly my point, Philip. Most often the defensive use of a firearm involves showing that you are armed which totally defuses the situation. It does not involve a call to the police. That's why a definitive number of "defensive uses" of firearms is difficult to gauge. But, the fact is that however tragic the lives lost to firearm misuses they save more lives than they take. |
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John Bowersmith, Photographer
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Lubbock | Tx | USA | Posted: 4:35 PM on 10.13.08 |
->> No one is right in this argument which seems to have started, and always does start. It's merely a battle of statistics which can be used any way to promote any angle. On the one hand there are all the gun death numbers, which are frightening to be sure. On the other hand there are about 45,000 injuries from nail guns in the US every year. Perhaps we should work toward nail gun control. Then the number of preventable medical malpractice deaths in the US which far exceeds gun deaths each year. And we all want the higher medical costs that come from more regulation to control those issues.
I'd say controlling guns isn't the answer anyway. Just legislate bullet production out of existence and there's your answer. Thousands of Americans will be stuck with expensive, shiny rocks if there are no bullets.
After that we need to work on baseball bat control, because you can most definitely kill someone with a baseball bat. Then it's on to hockey sticks and beer bottles.
Many photographers, myself included, get all pissed off and agro when someone comes up to them on the street and tells them that they can't take a photo in a public place. Rightfully so. Remember the New York subway thing a few years ago?
So gun enthusiasts and hunters feel the same way when people essentially do the same thing to them. We photographers know how they feel. Those people aren't hurting anyone and neither are photographers in the subway.
Sure guns are inherently more dangerous than cameras, but I guarantee you my Mamiya C33 will crack your skull if I use it in such a manner.
And right now all this control and legislation and background checking and waiting periods and whatever garbage is junk anyway. You can go into a sporting goods store and walk out 30minutes later with a black-powder pistol that fires 6 .454 caliber round balls with no checks what so ever.
Generally criminals are the ones killing people with guns. Just in the same way that generally terrorists are the ones taking photos of subways and buildings so they can figure out where to place explosives.
There are some people out there that just aren't very nice, no matter what. Those of us that play nice get the shaft, every time. Thems the breaks.
I wouldn't trade a gun in for a camera personally. But maybe someone else would and it's nice to have that option. But I do recall hearing about a gun for Gameboy exchange somewhere that caused an increase in gun theft just so people could get more Gameboys. |
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Tony Donaldson, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 5:16 PM on 10.13.08 |
| ->> I was just cleaning my Canon when it accidentally went off... |
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Jack Joseph Jr., Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 7:56 PM on 10.13.08 |
| ->> . . . typical Canadian violation of inalienable rights. |
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Michael Stevens, Photographer
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:56 AM on 10.14.08 |
->> John Bowersworth said, "Generally criminals are the ones killing people with guns. ... There are some people out there that just aren't very nice, no matter what. Those of us that play nice get the shaft, every time."
I couldn't have said it better. And gun control effectively stacks the playing field so that "those of us that play nice" get more of the shaft than is reasonable. |
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Philip Peterson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Puyallup | WA | USA | Posted: 2:25 PM on 10.14.08 |
->> That’s one reason “no gone zones” make me roll my eyes.
I’m sure lots of wackos think “Gosh, I was going to burst into this school and shoot a bunch of people but I didn’t realize it was a ‘gun free zone’ so I’d better not.” |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:39 PM on 12.16.08 |
->> "I've never heard of The National Department of Health Statistics."
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/ |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:41 PM on 12.16.08 |
->> "Let's not forget about the one to two millions times a year a firearm is used in self-defense to prevent a crime from happening, or to save a life or property"
Bullshit statistics from a rabidly pro-gun source. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:01 PM on 12.16.08 |
->> Jim, the site linked referers to the National Institute of Justice.
NIJ is the research, development and evaluation agency of the US Department of Justice.
Hardly a rabidly pro-gun source. Like it or not, gun ownership is a constitutional right. Much like a free press.
The link you posted is for the Department of Health and Human Services/ Center for Disease Control. |
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Jim Sykes, Photographer
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Montgomery Village | Md | | Posted: 4:35 PM on 12.17.08 |
->> This is a well done and fair video done by, surprisingly, the US media which is FAR from being supportive of guns. But the facts presented and talked about are pretty clear and easy to understand and make it hard to think that gun control is the answer to the problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eAWnQ
The real answer is to enforce laws we already have and to do it forcefully and with harsh penalties.
Recently a FedEx worked stole hundreds of guns being shipped to dealers. He sold them on the street for a few hundred bucks a piece.
He ended up convicted and could get a MAXIMUM of only 5 years in prison. He'll likely serve far less.
So here is the root of the problem. Hundreds of stolen guns being put on the street ILLEGALLY and we punish it with a max of five years and likely less?
No wonder its so easy for criminals to get guns. Hell,its worth the chance to make the sales when you get basically a slap on the wrist.
Punish the criminals, not the law abiding and do it harshly and maybe we'll get a hold on this thing.
Till then, I want my own guns to put myself on the level playing field with the bad guys. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 11:33 PM on 12.17.08 |
->> It cracks me up when the ones who scream first and the loudest when their 1st Amend. rights are under fire, are to often the same ones willing to toss the 2nd Amend. under the bus.
How do you reconcile that in your mind? |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Nashville | Tn | USA | Posted: 10:44 AM on 12.18.08 |
->> Pretty interesting discussion, for the most part. And yes, interesting point about 1st amendment protection vs 2nd amendment protection.
I was recently looking at other sources of accidental and intentional deaths in the US. Like someone else in this thread said, stats can be used to support about any conclusion. But I did find that a large number of people, especially children, die from drowning in swimming pools.
In fact, the ratio of swimming pool deaths to swimming pool owners, compared to gun deaths compared to estimated gun owners is staggering. So, do we ban swimming pools? Of course not.
Do we ban cars? Of course not. But how many people die each year in car accidents? A car can certainly be used as a weapon to kill people. It has before.
At Columbine, the anti-gun crowd talk about how gun control would prevent such a crime. Columbine was horrible for everyone. I had 2 small boys in a pre-school 1 mile from the school and was frantically driving to pick the up that day, as the sensationalized news reports on the radio made it sound like the entire area was under seize. I will never forget that day. Especially since some of those effected were friends and acquaintances of people I knew.
But those guys got their guns illegally. Registration, waiting periods, and all that crap wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Oh, and they were making bombs too. If guns weren't available, would they have spent more time perfecting their bombs? What if the teachers had guns in that 'protected' zone. Would the story have ended quicker if a teacher was able to defend the school before the police showed up?
I have always been a gun guy. There is NO chance I would ever use a gun in a manner dangerous to others in an offensive manner. There is NO WAY I would use a gun to teach someone a lesson, or scare someone, or help me fight in a bar. And all gun owners I know are just like me. But don't come busting into our homes, try and car jack our vehicles, or try and rob me in a parking lot!
As horrid as it may seem to the anti-gun crowd, many gun owners (including me) thoroughly enjoy shooting at the range. Shooting targets, and plinking, is a lot of fun (although can get expensive). Many of the gun owners I know are into competition shooting. The skill and accuracy required to be at the top of that field is amazing, and it takes a LOT of practice and skill to get to that point.
Guns aren't going away in this country. Even if they ban them like they have in England and Australia, the criminals certainly aren't going to turn them in, and most law abiding citizens in this country won't either (thereby making them criminals). I would rather see law abiding, tax paying, well trained citizens armed to level the playing field on the streets. While the anti-gun crowd cowers in fear of the thought of more people carrying guns on the streets, in the subway, in our national parks (which is soon to be legal for permit owners), I am much more comfortable in those areas knowing reasonable, rational, and trained people have the means to protect themselves and others, in the event something bad goes down.
The only way I would trade a gun for a camera, is if I could get some real nice photo equipment, and sell it on EBay so that I could get that Springfield 1911 I've been eying. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:07 PM on 12.18.08 |
->> Eric said:
->> It cracks me up when the ones who scream first and the loudest when their 1st Amend. rights are under fire, are to often the same ones willing to toss the 2nd Amend. under the bus.
How do you reconcile that in your mind?
Great Post!! I couldn't have said it better myself!!
Y |
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Steve Mitchell, Photographer
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Peterborough | Cambridgeshire | England | Posted: 8:37 AM on 12.19.08 |
| ->> I suppose you just have to hope that the criminal has exchanged his/her handgun for a camera too...I suppose if you both draw your smoking Canons at the same time, you can have some sort of pose off...similar to Zoolander! |
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Landon Finch, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 9:40 AM on 12.19.08 |
->> "How do you reconcile that in your mind?"
It is quite possible to agree with one part of the Constitution and disagree with another. Just because its in the Constitution, doesn't make it right or moral.
This is true no matter what side of the gun "issue" you're on and can equally apply to any part of the Constitution. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 11:19 AM on 12.19.08 |
->> Landon, absolutely correct. But.... The complaint or justification usually heard here is about the constitutional right to cover and report the news. Don't get me wrong. I completely agree and support free speech. The same applies to guns. At least for now.
If everyone would just allow me to be in charge of everything for a while....Nevermind. sounds like way to much work. |
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Landon Finch, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 12:01 PM on 12.19.08 |
->> Jeff, I don't hear anyone here saying we DON'T have the right to bear arms.
I hear some say we SHOULDN'T have the right to bear arms because... (the reason really doesn't matter). These people disagree with the rights the 2nd amendment grant, but they don't deny the fact that people have the rights.
That is the difference and there really is no need to "reconcile" anything. |
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